SSDs - State of the Product?

[timwhit]

None of these points, other than it being a laptop were mentioned in your original post.

To solve your backup dilemma, can you add another drive to this laptop? If so, schedule something to backup the boot partition nightly. If it's Windows, one of the Acronis versions would probably work, it will even backup deltas.

If there's no free bay for another drive, how about a USB drive that you ask the user to plug in each night and then run the backup on schedule if the drive is present.

If the user won't take any responsibility, I'd say you are out of luck.

 

[time]

I went to great lengths some time back to organize a high-speed USB flash drive for her (Voyager GT I think, big and colorful).

Last time I asked after it, it had been lost somewhere.

But in any case, you didn't answer the second challenge, which is what could a user do in the field, even if they had a backup from 5 minutes earlier?

Dead drive = dead PC.

 

[timwhit]

I would ask the user to find someone local to fix the issue.

I would actually stop working for this person completely, it sounds like more trouble than it's worth.

 

[Howell]

Alarmingly, most of the data was missing when we ran a data recovery utility on it.

You are convinced the data is missing due to a bad drive instead of due to the reinstallation?

 

[blakerwry]

Something like moby would probably work well for keeping data backed up for someone like this. If they are regularly at home or office (or some other stable location) WHS might work instead.

Of course, you're still needing someone local to diagnose/fix the problem if there's a hardware failure. I'm not really seeing anyway around that unless you have a spare, identical laptop that is sitting around getting imaged with the latest backup from the master laptop.

 

[time]

You are convinced the data is missing due to a bad drive instead of due to the reinstallation?

No, I'm not. But there was at least 20GB of known files missing in the data recovery, and some were more than 1GB in size. Perhaps it's due to the wear-levelling nature of SSDs? On a spinning disk, the installation would start back at the outermost tracks.

There was at least one minor flaky event early in the laptop's life, but I wrote it off to uncertainty. None of these events, taken in isolation, confirm a problem with the SSD. That's the part that makes me queasy.

I was thinking of raising this in a separate thread, but has anyone stopped to think about the futility of SMART monitoring on SSDs?

 

[time]

Something like moby would probably work well for keeping data backed up for someone like this.

Took me a while (because you often come up with useful stuff that we haven't heard of), but you mean Mozy, the online backup service, don't you?

Of course, you're still needing someone local to diagnose/fix the problem if there's a hardware failure.

Thanks, that was my point. You wouldn't think so in this day and age, but it can be remarkably difficult to achieve that. If you lose your HDD, you also lose your software and accessible records of licenses. Talking about it like this makes me think that a spare, pre-imaged drive could be useful - except for the cost (SSD) and the possibility the user might lose it. :roll:

But really, you should not have to worry so much about a device with a million hour plus MTBF ...

 

[sechs]

I was thinking of raising this in a separate thread, but has anyone stopped to think about the futility of SMART monitoring on SSDs?

The major problem that I see is that the controller manufacturers have repurposed all of the values in a non-meaningful way. And have neglected to tell anybody.

 

[Howell]

The root problem all of these solutions have is that they require a knowledgeable person to remove/install the new drive.

 

[Mercutio]

OCZ finally got back to me this morning. They asked for 15 points of information including motherboard model, RAM voltage and BIOS revision and just gave me a large text area on a web site to type it all in. Not even a proper form.

I don't think I'd buy OCZ-anything again.

 

[ddrueding]

MSI is much the same. That doesn't mean I stop buying them, I just evaluate their product as if it had no warranty.

The 40GB Intel with warranty vs 30GB Vertex without @ $100 - no brainer.

The 80GB Intel @ $200 vs 60GB Vertex @ $130? - maybe.

 

[blakerwry]

Took me a while (because you often come up with useful stuff that we haven't heard of), but you mean Mozy, the online backup service, don't you?

Doh! You hit the nail on the head. Mozy removes most of the human aspect of backups - any backup that relies on frequent human intervention is due to fail at one point or another.

I'd tend to think any of the online backup solutions would be easier than a USB stick or external hard drive, especially for someone who is very mobile.

Another option is something like dropbox, where all files are saved online. If course, this requires a constant internet connection and almost implicit trust in cloud data storage. I don't know that I'm willing to make that leap myself.

 

[Handruin]

time, would a laptop that allows for multiple hard drives running in RAID 1 help some of the hardware failure situations and then have something like Mozy for the backups?

 

[time]

Doug, the laptop is an ultraportable (1.5kg), so there's not much scope for additional drive capacity. Yet another application for USB3, perhaps?

As it happens, I *am* using an online backup service with this laptop, but for other, logistical reasons it's a lot more sophisticated than Mozy (which would work fine in general). I plan to report my findings when I get a chance to write it up.

 

[LunarMist]

OCZ finally got back to me this morning. They asked for 15 points of information including motherboard model, RAM voltage and BIOS revision and just gave me a large text area on a web site to type it all in. Not even a proper form.

I don't think I'd buy OCZ-anything again.

WTF does RAM voltage have to do with a SSD? Most users would not even know or have access to that info on commercial computers. I wonder what happens if you enter 12V. :mrgrn:

 

[ddrueding]

The company is used to just handling RAM RMAs, looks like they just don't understand what they are doing.

 

[timwhit]

The company is used to just handling RAM RMAs, looks like they just don't understand what they are doing.

They've been selling SSDs for a couple years now[citation needed], I'd think they would have figured out the RMA process by now.

 

[Handruin]

Maybe WD can offer their services on the RMA process?

 

[sechs]

I think I'd rather have good products with a crappy RMA process than the other way around....

 

[Bozo]

This looks ineresting.

 

[ddrueding]

This looks ineresting.

That is very cool.

 

[Bozo]

Has anyone installed an SSD in a USB enclosure?? Is there no point with USB's slow transfer rates?

 

[Santilli]

Has anyone installed an SSD in a USB enclosure?? Is there no point with USB's slow transfer rates?

I've done that with a 30 gig Kingspec PATA drive. It makes for a rather quick, and this was a really slow sustained throughput drive, USB drive, that is pretty shock resistant. NOT
really cost efficient, but it does seem pretty quick in file transfer, access time, and really weird ATTO numbers...

 

[time]

Super Talent already makes one as the SuperCrypt, only without the bulk of the 1.8/2.5" form factor.

There's also a RAID 0 version.

 

[Pradeep]

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3949/oczs-fastest-ssd-the-ibis-and-hsdl-interface-reviewed

674MB/sec sequential writes, 800+MB/sec sequential reads.

 

[time]

I struggled to follow what Anand is so excited about. So they bundled 4 SSDs together with a RAID-0 controller, connected it straight to the PCI-e bus and said, "Ta-da"? As he said at one point, you could just buy 4 normal SSDs and create your own RAID. The individual drive throughput doesn't exceed SATA II, let alone SATA 6Gb/s.

And the idea that anyone would be stupid enough to stack these already more vulnerable drives in a massive compound RAID-0 is hilarious - isn't it? :???:

I can see that it would save space; what am I missing?

 

[Will Rickards]

I'm more excited about the ONYX 2 SSD's that were announced. Looks like decent pricing for those. And I need a big enough drive for my laptop.

 

[Pradeep]

I struggled to follow what Anand is so excited about. So they bundled 4 SSDs together with a RAID-0 controller, connected it straight to the PCI-e bus and said, "Ta-da"? As he said at one point, you could just buy 4 normal SSDs and create your own RAID. The individual drive throughput doesn't exceed SATA II, let alone SATA 6Gb/s.

And the idea that anyone would be stupid enough to stack these already more vulnerable drives in a massive compound RAID-0 is hilarious - isn't it? :???:

I can see that it would save space; what am I missing?

SATA 6Gb/s would top out at 600MB/sec, which this seems to be able to far exceed.

A RAID 10 of 4 100GB drives would be delivering 1.2-1.6 GByte/sec of storage.

I wouldn't try and run a hospital on one, but it seems to be the state of the art in pure speed/IOPS.

 

[ddrueding]

Compared to a single SSD the speed is superior, compared to a DIY RAID the price/ease of use is superior.

 

[Pradeep]

I would imagine the fastest DIY option would be four of the Crucial C300's + RAID controller, which wouldn't compare speed wise.

 

[ddrueding]

4x 64GB C300 and an LSI RAID card is $700.

240GB REVODrive is $600.

The main reason I like the integrated solution is because it is easy and clean to install without requirements on the chassis or PSU.

 

[time]

SATA 6Gb/s would top out at 600MB/sec, which this seems to be able to far exceed.

But not per standard drive: 4x SATA 6Gb/s = 2.4GB/s

A RAID 10 of 4 100GB drives would be delivering 1.2-1.6 GByte/sec of storage.

I was referring to the article, where Anand said, "four of these in RAID-0 should be amazing".

 

[ddrueding]

Speaking of, I just took delivery of a 180GB RevoDrive. Short blurb soon.

 

[time]

4x 64GB C300 and an LSI RAID card is $700.

240GB REVODrive is $600.

Good point, it's more about the RAID controller than the drives.

Your example is wrong, should be: 2x 120GB OCZ Agility 2 ($500) + 1x 2-port SATA II controller ($10).

Looks like 4-port SATA II controllers are about $35. Obviously, there's no point paying for coprocessor power in RAID-0.

An unfair comparison would be 4x Corsair Force 120GB + RAID-0 controller for $995 versus a 480GB Revo for $1300, because the DIY configuration has twice the performance of the Revo. Maybe the Ibis won't sell for much more than the Revo?

What would be a lot more interesting is a Sandforce controller that supported interleaving. You don't need RAID, you just need more channels.

 

[ddrueding]

The next time this system scales, it will be getting another 180GB Revo for a RAID-0 of RAID-0 SSDs. That should be interesting. It also doesn't require a cabling/mounting mess (there isn't even a secondary power connection!).

 

[Gilbo]

My 200GB OWC SSD (an original Sandforce SF-1500 based one) died a few days ago, just BSODed the laptop and ten refused to show up in the BIOS. It lived for about 9 months with minimal writes. My first SSD experience has not instilled confidence. OWC has agreed to RMA it.

Bleh. Highly inconvenient. At the moment, of my 3 computers, 2 laptops and 1 desktop, I'm down to a single working machine, my HP 2730P.

(Those HP Elite books are great by the way - tough as nails. Looking forward to the Sandy Bride implementation of my convertible tablet.)

 

[ddrueding]

My 200GB OWC SSD (an original Sandforce SF-1500 based one) died a few days ago, just BSODed the laptop and ten refused to show up in the BIOS. It lived for about 9 months with minimal writes. My first SSD experience has not instilled confidence. OWC has agreed to RMA it.

Bleh. Highly inconvenient. At the moment, of my 3 computers, 2 laptops and 1 desktop, I'm down to a single working machine, my HP 2730P.

(Those HP Elite books are great by the way - tough as nails. Looking forward to the Sandy Bride implementation of my convertible tablet.)

Running an HP laptop with a WD drive? You like to live dangerously....

 

[Pradeep]

Good point, it's more about the RAID controller than the drives.

Your example is wrong, should be: 2x 120GB OCZ Agility 2 ($500) + 1x 2-port SATA II controller ($10).

Looks like 4-port SATA II controllers are about $35. Obviously, there's no point paying for coprocessor power in RAID-0.

An unfair comparison would be 4x Corsair Force 120GB + RAID-0 controller for $995 versus a 480GB Revo for $1300, because the DIY configuration has twice the performance of the Revo. Maybe the Ibis won't sell for much more than the Revo?

What would be a lot more interesting is a Sandforce controller that supported interleaving. You don't need RAID, you just need more channels.

Only problem I see is most(all) hardware RAID cards seem to top out at around 800MB/sec or so, limited by the controller chip. I haven't seen one deliver 2GB+/sec. It's been a while tho.

Now Windows soft RAID, that can deliver. But soft raiding two hardware arrays is not a good plan for keeping things simple.

 

[time]

Sandforce firmware woes?

What's the story with SSD firmware updates? I had assumed that everything had settled down, but a trip to the Corsair forums doesn't fill me with confidence.

I'm aware that Crucial was shipping shite with their C300 for a while, and now it seems most Sandforce drives are running beta firmware. Given the high incidence of drive bricking when trying to update firmware, this is not something I really want to get into.

 

[LunarMist]

I'm tired of the RAID 2x stuff. Where is the faster replacement for the X25-E? :