Stupid question

Tea

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OK, ignoring the new 533 FSB models that have not hit the streets yet, P-4s run a 400MHz FSB, yes?

What speed does a DDR-equipped P4 run its RAM at?266MHz? Or is it an even fraction of the FSB - i.e., 200MHz?
 

CougTek

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Stupid answer :

The speed at which the RAM runs depends on the chipset. For Intel's i845 cheapset, the RAM (actually SDRAM) runs at 133MHz. Intel i845B, VIA P4X266 & P4X266A as well as the SiS 645 all run their memory at 266MHz (DDR SDRAM). The SiS 645DX, i845E and VIA P4X333 can use 333MHz DDR SDRAM.

The i850 use PC800 RDRAM running at 400MHz I think, but as it's RDRAM, it doesn't work the same way as SDRAM. The upcoming i850E will run its RDRAM sticks at 533MHz.
 

CougTek

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I wrote a mooseshit :(

The i845E and i845G will run their memory at 266MHz, not 333MHz. However, their FSB frequency will be 533MHz.
 

Tea

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Hang on a second, Pradeep, I'll look it up. I don't have our total sales figures here but you can make a rough estimate by remembering that we sell enough Athlons and Durons to support two full-timers and two part-timers in reasonable comfort.

Yup, we seem to have sold ... er ... I have the exact number here ... yes, here it is. Exactly zero Pentium 4s.

--------------------------------------------------

In fact I think I can give you pretty exact numbers for several of the other Intel chips over the past few years too.

Pentium III 1133 512k cache: 1
Pentium III 1133 256k cache: 2
Pentium III 1000: about 6
Pentium III 700 through 950: can't remember, maybe one or two.
Pentium III 666: 1
Pentium III 600EB: about 6 or 8
Pentium III slot versions: zero
Pentium II 300 through 450: nil
Pentium II 266: about 3
Pentium II 233: nil

And while I'm at it, some other sales duds:

VIA Cyrix III: 1
Celeron 266: 1 (well, we gave that thing away because it was so slow that we couldn't actualy sell it)
Celeron 300A through 433 or 500: quite a few - 30 or 50 maybe.
Pentium Pro: zero

That's not counting second-hand stuff or notebooks. Most of our notebooks over the past year or three have been Celerons.

BTW, I'm not actually prejudiced against Intel, I don't care what people buy so long as they buy it from me, but so far I have only had one client who had a particular set of needs (audio work) such that I recommended a P-4 to him. For the performance they deliver, they just can't cut the mustard.

Only today I spent the morning going over our price list wondering what to slot in between our entry-level system (Duron 1000, 256MB SDRAM, Epox KT133A main board) and our best-selling system (XP 1700, 256MB DDR, Epox or Soltek KT333).

There is $220 difference between the two, which is too big a jump. You have to have at least one, prefferably two systems slot in between those two. (Because, generally speaking, people will not upgrade themselves $200 worth at a time. You need to offer $50 to $100 steps. They wind up going with the best value in most cases anyway - the XP 1700 right now - but they need some gentle steps to justify it to their husbands or wives.)

We used to have a Duron 1200 DDR and a Thunderbird 1400 in between those two. Time to replace them.

I looked at Duron 1200 and 1300 chips. About $50 more, probably not worth the money. Hmmm.

I looked at putting a Duron 1200 on a DDR board with 256MB of PC-2100. A bit steep that - it costs ~$150 to do that, and it's still only a Duron 1200, and although it's easy to chip-upgrade moist people don't, and it seems a waste running all that lovely DDR at 200MHz.

And I looked at the Pentium 4 1600, which is much more attractive than it used to be now that it has 512k L2 cache and there are DDR boards to go with it. Epox have a new SiS chipset DDR P4 board that is quite cheap, and though I'm not a big SiS fan these days, as it's from Epox I'd trust it. I worked it out .... Came to more than the XP 1800.

I mean, how the f*ck do Intel expect people like me to sell their products if they go and do stupid things like that?

In the end I went with:

Duron 1000 (base model)
Duron 1200 DDR (+$150 odd)
XP 1600 SDRAM (+$150 odd)
XP 1700 DDR (+$220)
XP 1800 512MB DDR (+$450 or so)

and in the Intel ones I dropped the Pentium III 1133 (can't get stock anymore), went with:

1600 DDR (+$240 or so)
1800 DDR (+ lots)

But no-one will buy them.

The only Intel product anyone buys is their network cards.
 

Mercutio

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I only sell two systems, but it's amazing how similar the "budget" machine Tannin describes is to mine, and how similar his best-seller is to my upper-end machine (although I use a gigabyte board for that one). My low-end unit is $425 right now ($475 with a Windows 98 license)... how much is yours, again?

The differential between KT266A+DDR and KT133+SDR is just too much to justify a price point between, and there's just nothing else to do, unless you want to waste an AthlonXP on an SDR-based board (there ARE a couple that support up to XP1800+).
 

Tea

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The Workhorse (as we call it) is AU$1570 right now, Mercutio. That's:

A-Open case, AMD certified 250W
Epox KT-133A main board or similar
Duron 1000
256MB A-grade PC-133
8MB 2-D video card, any brand
Samsung keyboard (some other no-cost options)
Logitech optical mouse (more no-cost options)
Panasonic FDD
SpinPoint 20GB
17 inch Velta (i.e., Delta)
Mitsubushi 52X
100W speakers
Windows

Without Windows it's $1350.
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
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You'd think parts would be cheaper, what with Oz being so close to all those southeast asian manufacturing companies...

That's close to $800. Almost twice as much (2/3rds more, anyway). That's just insane.
 

Tea

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It's not so much the parts, o rotund one, it's the twin evils of taxation and Microsoft.

Windows accounts for $220, much more for a real Windows suck as 2000. And there is another $150 tax. Take those two out and the FVS (second system listed, the one with the TNT and 40GB) is $1290, the Workhorse comes down to about $1200
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
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Rotund One? Like you'd know, Ms. Sock Puppet. :p

My tax is easy: It's 5%. That's it. Thank goodness.
It's all about costs, though. Having that low-cost machine is a great way to get sales. So many people won't ever do what even the little duron can handle.
 

Buck

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Tea said:
It's not so much the parts, o rotund one, it's the twin evils of taxation and Microsoft.

Windows accounts for $220, much more for a real Windows suck as 2000. And there is another $150 tax. Take those two out and the FVS (second system listed, the one with the TNT and 40GB) is $1290, the Workhorse comes down to about $1200

$220.00 for Windows98? Wow, that must be a tough one to sell Tony. I thought I was expensive selling Windows XP Home for around $110.00 plus tax. The real killer is Microsoft Office.
 

Tea

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It's a monopoly, what can you do?

In the last ten years, in real (i.e., inflation adjusted) terms, Microsoft have overseen a rise in basic OS prices of 1000% Buck. Yes ten times dearer than ten years ago.

Windows 98SE: $220
Windows ME: $220
Windows XP Home Edition: $220
Windows XP Pro: $340

That ain't my inflated retail prices either, these are the OEM versions only sold with systems, and I ain't making anything on that: it's my cost price, plus 10% GST, plus whatever amount rounds it out to the nearest $10. Most places would sell it for more than that.
 

Buck

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Actually, with XP Home, you're on par with me, although my markup is a bit more. With XP Professional I think you come out a bit less after monetary conversion, as I sell it for $180.00. Either way, the story is the same - Microsoft products are terribly overpriced. Unfortunately, I have no alternative. Nobody around here wants to buy or use OS/2 or Linux for there home systems. Plus all of the software they buy or download works with Windows.

What does occur often, is that customers don't buy an OS because they can get a copy from a friend. There is not much I can do about that, so I just sell them the system.

I've noticed some negative talk about ECS products. Granted, they're not my favorite, but I haven't had an issue with their recent boards. I prefer Soltek, Epox, or Asus, but they're usually 30% more than ECS (for me anyway).
 

Tea

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I bought two ECS SiS based DDR Athlon boards.

The don't support Thunderbirds
With Athlon XPs they are unstable
The will probably go OK if I underclock them and sell them with Durons.

Conclusion: new name, new board, same old crap.
 

CougTek

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I got very a different experience with the ECS K7S5A. I run a system 24x7 with a Thunderbird 1.4GHz and this motherboard (even though they aren't supposed to work together!) and the few systems I built using this board haven't disapointed me.

Have you tried to flash a recent BIOS version? I know you once wrote that you shouldn't have to do these things, but if it can improve significantly the reliability of your 2 motherboards, is it that hard to do? As a side note, I reflash all the motherboards' BIOS that I sell with the latest available version. It's part of my routine.
 

Tea

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Guess I'd better, Coug. I still have those two boards. I'm not going to use them for any of our usual systems, I don't trust them. Guess I'll wait till I get someone that gets up my nose and palm them off with the ECS board instead of our usual Epox and Soltek ones. But it will have to be a Duron, I think, because Kristi tested both boards in various combinations and they were crashing and/or freezing on her.
 

Buck

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Tea said:
I bought two ECS SiS based DDR Athlon boards.

The don't support Thunderbirds
With Athlon XPs they are unstable
The will probably go OK if I underclock them and sell them with Durons.

Conclusion: new name, new board, same old crap.

ECS K7VAT3-2 (VIA chipset)
Stable: XP 1600+ and below (I haven't tried the 1800+ or higher)
Stable: Thunderbird 1400C
No BIOS upgrades (waste of my time, if it doesn't work from the get go, it's pig fotter), minor jumper changes. No problem.

ECS K7AMA (ALi chipset)
Stable: Duron 900 Mhz
No BIOS upgrades (see above), minor jumper changes. No problem.
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
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Most ECS stuff I've seen comes out of the factory as a dud. They pretty much all have something wrong with them. It's just a matter of finding it. Tannin's lucky. His had problems that were easy to find.

So why isn't Kristi on this board again?
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
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How about "Tony's sometimes ex-girlfriend's daughter". That's a good one, right?

"Spatula"

"Zoltan"

"Handle" (not that we want to give Tannin any ideas!)

"T-bone"

Anything good so far?
 

CougTek

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Mercutio said:
So why isn't Kristi on this board again?
Because as light as Kristi might be, she will certainly break the poor ECS if she stand on it. Flashing the BIOS won't help after that.
 

CougTek

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Cliptin said:
Buck said:
ECS K7VAT3-2 (VIA chipset)

I just bought this board. Has anyone tried this board with anything higher than a 1600+.
I'm not sure if I used an Athlon 1700+ or 1600+ with this motherboard back in January, but I had absolutely no problem with it. Then again, it seems that only Buck and I are lucky with ECS.

Have you flashed the BIOS with a revision dating from February or later? The Feb. 2002 revision gave the K7VTA3-2 a 2-4% boost compared to the earlier one, allowing it to be on par with the average of KT266A motherboards (before, it was the slowest).
 

James

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CougTek said:
Mercutio said:
So why isn't Kristi on this board again?
Because as light as Kristi might be, she will certainly break the poor ECS if she stand on it. Flashing the BIOS won't help after that.
Nice one Coug. :)

BTW I'm perfectly happy with the ECS K7S5A boards I've used. I have one here at home running a TB1000 no problems at all - it's in Sharon's machine.
 

CougTek

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Le Femme will make it quite obvious that she's an English speaking woman trying to use French. La Femme would be correct though.

Since everyone here knows her as Kristi, I think that should be her handle.
 

James

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Mercutio said:
How about "Tony's sometimes ex-girlfriend's daughter". That's a good one, right?

"Spatula"

"Zoltan"

"Handle" (not that we want to give Tannin any ideas!)

"T-bone"

Anything good so far?
I like "INeedAName" as a nick - saw someone with it on the Megatokyo forums.
 
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