Suggest a decent 19" LCD monitor

Chewy509

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Rather than trying to put the support into the application layer, maybe it would be better to put it into the video subsystem... the monitor, vid card, and associated drivers.

Any application using .NET 3.0 w/WPF works seemlessly in regards to honouring user selected DPI, and admittedly it looks and works pretty well... (All size definitions within the form specifications are relative, not fixed as they were with GDI and WinForms (.NET 1.0, 1.1 and 2.0)).

It's just the legacy (aka 99.999% of all) applications that don't use this technology...

PS.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Presentation_Foundation
http://windowsclient.net/Default.aspx
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/netframework/aa663326.aspx
 

Tannin

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Though I guess this is all a temporary band-aid that doesn't really solve the problem, and that is software designed for specific resolutions. Anything defined in pixels, really. Ideally everything displayed on screen should be defined in a unit that is not specific to any one display.

Hands up those people who write stuff that displays on people's monitors.

Me for one. Guilty as charged. I write lots of web stuff - and all of it is defined in pixels. All of it. Why? Because the limitations and design inconsistencies and incompatibilities between different browsers, screens and platforms is such that nothing else works.

Mind you, a lot of stuff I do these days is photographic, and photographs must be designed in pixels, or the result is el-crappola. (Yes, you can scale them, but no software ever written is smart enough to get it right - only a human can scale a photograph properly ... and come to think of it, most humans aren't too good at it either.
 

ddrueding

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So long as you are working in multiples, everything is fine. I have run quite a few 1600x1200 22" screens at 800x600. I almost feel bad having the customer pay for so much and use so little. To be honest, most of my clients don't notice the blurriness of 1024x768 on a 19" 1280x1024 screen; if you are coming from a crap CRT it is still an improvement.
 

Tannin

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You have to show them, David.

Just because they don't know enough to identify or articulate the difference doesn't mean they don't see it - and a stress factor is every bit as much a stress factor regardless of whether they are conscious of it or unconscious.

I think it's part of your job, if you are ethical in your dealings with the public, to steer people towards things that are good for (amongst other things) their eyes and their health. That's what they are paying you for - your expertise and in-depth understanding. In other words, a good deal of what people pay you for isn't the box you sell them or the latest, greatest CPU chip inside it, it's the effort you make to help them pich the right system, get the most out of it, and have it take the least out of them. (Eyestrain = stress = headaches = lost productivity = bad temper = lower marks = grumpy people round the home. Stress is cumulative. It all adds up.)

These days any fool can build a computer that works most of the time and is at least minimally capable of basic tasks (yes, even the likes of Dell and Compaq can do that). What sets the true professional apart is attention to the more subtle things that really matter long-term, and of all those things, decent picture quality is #1. A decent keyboard/mouse is high up on the list too.

It's amazing how quickly people start to pick up on stuff once you show them what to look for. Or, when you think about it, perhaps it isn't so amazing: their body already knows that Screen X is crap and hard to read, you just have to get the conscious mind up to speed.

Ever spend any time with small children? One of the key roles parents play is teaching children how to "read their bodies" - how to notice if they are tired or hungry or cold or need to pee, and (now being consciously aware of what their bodies knew all along) putting them in a position to do something about it. I find that teaching people how to look at a monitor is rather like that: I often spend 5 minutes getting someone to look at two or three different models (and these days to look at the same model in two or three different screen resolutions) and then they tell me that they want the better one. Next time they buy, they will be able to do it without my help.

(Oh, and lest you think I'm doing this just because I'm a nice bloke and care about people .... well, that's part of it, but it's also one of the little things that sets me apart from my competition, helps justify my outrageous prices, and brings me repeat business time after time.)

Errr .. and it would have to be a really crap CRT to be worse than a 1280 x 1024 TFt at 1024 x 768. If you are talking an old, tired 15 inch thing, sure, I agree. But I'd use a half-decent 17" CRT anyday before I'd touch a fuzzmonkey of a TFT running out of spec.)
 

time

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I'm a picky so and so with monitors.

Firstly, I wouldn't thank you if you gave me a Samsung 940B. According to Samsung, the 740B has identical specs, and I found those to be near the bottom of the pile.

Samsung does make good monitors; the 206BW and 226BW are 24-bit monitors that are well worth the few extra dollars over their budget shit. So I agree with LiamC's post, although Samsung is blatantly lying about the 2000:1 contrast ratio.

Secondly, I thought the LG 1953T was possibly worse than the cheap Samsungs (not sure about the 1953TX that Tannin's plugging). At the time, I noted that CougTek was able to get a completely different spec 24-bit panel under the same model code that spelt a budget 16-bit panel for the rest of us. I was embarassed by this product.

My recommendation - if you can still get it - is a Viewsonic VX922. Wide angles (170), good contrast and color, and no lag. Very obviously superior to the other 16-bit panels that have been mentioned.
 

ddrueding

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Tannin,

This is after I tell them. Either I set up the system with it's native resolution or they buy the PC from someone else (usually Dell) and it defaults to the native resolution. As soon as I turn it on, and they watch as I take their credit card and buy NOD32, they are already saying that the text is too small. Then I sigh as inaudibly as possible and begin some variation of a talk about what the monitor was designed to do, and what happens when you try to make it do something else. I try to make this include a metaphor of some kind relating to their field, spreadsheets are a good one. Then I show them how to change the resolution, and have them do it. As soon as they dial it back (to either 1024x768 or 800x600), they all say "oh, much better" and continue.
 

LiamC

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What's all this crap about software scaling and vector desktops? Are you intentionally buying into the manufacturers BS? Sorry to come over all heavy, but that is only part of the problem.

The problem is you need a resolution independent display, like CRT and printers, not software kludges for fixed resolution displays technologies. Software interpolation for non-native resolutions may improve things, (not fix mind) but it isn't the sinecure.

Does anyone know if SED, which seems to be a CRT front end with thin panel tech back end, is resolution independent or another fixed resolution format?
 

jtr1962

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Does anyone know if SED, which seems to be a CRT front end with thin panel tech back end, is resolution independent or another fixed resolution format?
Nothing is really resolution independent, even CRTs. A CRT with high dot pitch won't look that great either when scaled. The only reason CRTs could be scaled reasonably well is because their dot pitch was usually somewhat smaller than an equivalent-sized LCD. The solution remains making the dot pitch of LCDs much smaller, or in layman's terms increasing the resolution. Once that's done, scaling will work just fine. SED will suffer from the same problems LCD does if the pixels are the same size. It's no surprise LCDs don't scale well. After all, the pixels are usually clearly visible. When you scale at a non-integral multiple of the display you end up using a whole pixel when you only need part of one, and it's plainly obvious unless you're dead from the neck up. Sub-pixel rendering can help to some extent, but only in the horizontal plane.
 

LiamC

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Granted. But even 1900 x 1200 won't cut it and I can't see 3800 x 2400 panels at reasonable sizes and form factors on the horizon. Getting panels with that many transistors defect free in quantity is a daunting task.
 

ddrueding

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I can't visualize a truly resolution-independent display technology. The only thing I can think of is a display where the resolution is high enough that useful resolutions divide more evenly a 6400x4800 display would do pretty well at all the more sane resolutions. Of course, this would be tremendously more expensive than just getting a display that does what you want.
 

timwhit

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Thanks Tannin. I will hopefully be getting 2 of these at work to replace my aging CRTs, which give me terrible eye strain staring at them all day.

I finally got my new LCDs. They are quite nice. Extremely bright at their factory setting of 100 for brightness. I bumped them down to 60, but even that might be too high.

Tannin (or anyone else), what brightness and contrast do you run on your LG L1953TX-BF?
 

ddrueding

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I like my Sharp Aquos because it has an ambient light sensor and adjusts automatically ;) With my Viewsonic LCD, I'm always tweaking the brightness.
 

ddrueding

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There are windows opposite the monitor (~20ft away) and their is track lighting directly above. Depending on their combinations, there is a significant range of useful settings.
 

mubs

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I like my Sharp Aquos because it has an ambient light sensor and adjusts automatically ;) With my Viewsonic LCD, I'm always tweaking the brightness.

I have an LG TV that is supposed to do this ("Magic Eye"). It sucks so bad I turned the feature off. Sharp probably have refined their algorithm to work better.
 

ddrueding

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It does vary constantly, and since I'm using it as a monitor, I'm so close that I affect it as well. When I had the OSD showing that it was changing all the time it drove me crazy. Fortunately, I disabled the notification and it has fine enough settings that I don't notice all the changes.
 

ddrueding

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I've one of these on order to go with my new work laptop. It should arrive just after the new year.

Let me know how it turns out. I'm thinking of using those in portrait mode as secondary screens, as their long dimension (20.4") is the same as the short dimension on my main screen.
 

P5-133XL

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I have one and I love it. I tried it in portrait mode once and I hated it -- It's too tall. I have to admit that if I wanted multiple screens on my desk, I'd probably go portrait for all of them so I could reasonably place them on my desk side by side.
 

ddrueding

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I noticed with my Samsung 191Ts that the image quality seemed much lower in Portrait. The "screen door effect" was worse, and view angle was much worse.
 

Fushigi

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Got the 2407 in and unpacked it, but I won't actually use it 'til I'm back in the office next month. Beats the heck out of the old 20" CRT it's replacing on desk space & aesthetics without even powering it on. :) With the shelves in our cubes I may not be able to reasonably use the portrait mode; will have to play with it some.
 

Fushigi

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dd, what's the screen door effect? I noticed some text 'shimmy/dot crawl' on the 2407 at first, but I switched from VGA to DVI and it cleared right up. Silly me hadn't noticed at first that my 3+ year old docking bay had DVI ..

The 2407 is great. I am using it portrait and typically have Firefox maximized on it & drag other windows over as desired. I can see Mark's comment about it being too tall; it's borderline for me. View angle isn't an issue as I about always sit dead-on in front of it. That said, a bit to the right or left & the image is fine. Further over & it does dim a little but not much.

Current config is the laptop LCD on the left with the task bar and the 2407 on the right in portrait mode. I've connected but not yet used the 2407's USB hub/card reader. My Latitude D830 has a nVidia Quadro NVS 135M graphics subsystem with 128MB dedicated (0 shared) video memory. The bus is defined as PCI Express x16.

Now I'm looking for an Express Card reader to use for ReadyBoost.
 

ddrueding

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On that screen, it seemed* like the dot pitch was considerably worse. Could have to do with the viewing angle, it was my 3rd monitor and was considerably off to the right.


Not saying it was, just trying to describe my impressions.
 

mubs

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New display sizes to excite Tannin:

So, a plethora of "new" screen sizes awaits us - 21.6 inches, 26 inches at the top, and 15.6 inches at the bottom. 1920x1080, 1280x720, 1600x900 - all kinds of old-new funny pixel counts.

CES report from The Inquirer
 

Mercutio

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Those will not excite Tannin. Those will infuriate Tannin.
Everything I'm reading at the moment says that 4:3 displays are going to disappear over the next couple of years. This is just another sign of that.
 

paugie

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Everything I'm reading at the moment says that 4:3 displays are going to disappear over the next couple of years. This is just another sign of that.
Just goes to show that work is going out of the window and entertainment is staying on.
 
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