Terrestrial Engineering. Objections?

[Howell]

Ever shared a meal with a rabid vegan? You're lucky if "murderer" is the only thing s/he calls you.

He/She usually shuts up once you slap him/her with a pork chop.

 

[Mercutio]

I would like to share with the readers of Storageforum the wisdom of Maddox, the author of The Best Page In The Universe:

On the subject of Kid Licenses, Vegetarians, and of course, More on Vegetarians.

 

[timwhit]

I would like to share with the readers of Storageforum the wisdom of Maddox, the author of The Best Page In The Universe:

On the subject of Kid Licenses, Vegetarians, and of course, More on Vegetarians.

Maddox just released a book. The Alphabet of Manliness. I ordered it, but haven't received it yet.

 

[P5-133XL]

The original post from Liam included "What if we had totally polluted/destroyed/worn out/overpopulated Earth to the point where we had to find another planet and this was the only choice?"

Evolution is all about the strong surviving and, in some cases, the weak dying out. It sounded like you were arguing that we should just willingly die out and let the weaker native species survive if that was the only way to carry on human existance.

It's only mass murder if it is killing humans. Otherwise the entire food industry would be "mass murderers."

Evolution is about the strong (of your own species) surviving and the weak (of your own species) dying out and the changes over time that process has on ones own species. It has nothing to do with the might makes right philosophy of doing whatever you want to do against a weaker opponent/competetor.

On moral grounds I reject that philosophy regardless of my survival or even my race's. If I have destroyed my habitat, through my own choices, and now require someone elses to survive, I will not kill for that reason. They did nothing wrong; I did everything wrong; That does not give me the right to kill or damage innocents regardless of the fact that I have the capability and the need. I choose my path and so can my species because we have the capability of rational thinking, with a conscience, ethics and morals.

If we have been so stupid in our choices to doom our planet, we deserve what we get. I, if it was my choice, would choose suicide rather than harming an innocent as a remedy. It has nothing to do with evolution and everything to do with what is moral, right, and in the end just. I accept responsibility for my actions and their consequences and the same should go for my species.

 

[Bozo]

What if another species came to our planet and erradicated us to change the planet to suit them?
How would you feel about that?

Bozo :mrgrn:

 

[P5-133XL]

What if another species came to our planet and erradicated us to change the planet to suit them?
How would you feel about that?

Bozo :mrgrn:

I woundn't feel anything -- I'd be dead.

 

[RWIndiana]

The right way to do it, in case you were wondering, is to just not have kids. Everyone on the whole ------- planet just needs to grasp that a child is not proof of your love, nor the person who has to take care of you when you're old, nor an extra farm hand.

You should need a license to have a child. The world would be a much better place if human procreation more or less went away. China has the right idea, they just don't go far enough.

I agree with the first paragraph. Many, many people who have children really should not. If we could somehow stop crooks, murderers, et cetera from having children, that alone would reduce the rate of population growth right there.

I disagree with the idea of a license though. More government regulation (usually)=less moral conscience.

But then, equally to be feared may be a *decline* in population which the U.N. predicts will happen and quite drastically, due to the current numbers on the rate of reproduction in Africa and Europe especially. Of course, they say it will be something like 300 years before that happens. Still, the economic impact could be devastating.

 

[P5-133XL]

I have the distinct feeling, after several days of no posts, that I've put a very wet blanket on this discussion. Sorry

 

[ddrueding]

I don't think so. There haven't been any posts on any topic here in days... whats going on? Is there a porn convention or something?

 

[timwhit]

I'm usually too busy on the weekends to post or even read the forum. Much more time to burn while I am at work M-F.

 

[Tannin]

I lost interest when we got to the rank stupidity of claiming that a decline in population would lead to "devastating" economic impact. When debate sinks to including statements as absurd as that, it's time to go elsewhere in search of conversation. Which I did.

 

[Mercutio]

Busy on weekend. Yes.
Stupid work.

Plus it's seldom if ever worthwhile to debate RWIndiana. I think his posts make me dumber.

 

[Howell]

I appreciate the debate. Too busy to contribute myself. Still Reading.

 

[ddrueding]

If you're going to do it, do it right.

The last thing we need is the earth in an ER of some sort.

 

[Howell]

If you're going to do it, do it right.

The last thing we need is the earth in an ER of some sort.

err... Its already in ICU. Unfortunately, all the doctors around still think the earth is flat.

 

[ddrueding]

*shrug* I haven't been in a hospital or doctors office in nearly a decade, don't keep track of that stuff

 

[CougTek]

I have the distinct feeling, after several days of no posts, that I've put a very wet blanket on this discussion. Sorry

You inspired me to write a new song for Judas Priest :

HE!..IS!...THE THREAD KILL-ER!
THIS!...IS!...THE THREAD KILL-ER!
MMAAARRKKKKK!!!!!!!!!

Ok, time to go to bed for me now.

 

[Howell]

Mark, Have you read any Wendell Berry? I like him.

 

[P5-133XL]

Mark, Have you read any Wendell Berry? I like him.

Nope, never heard of him.

 

[RWIndiana]

I lost interest when we got to the rank stupidity of claiming that a decline in population would lead to "devastating" economic impact. When debate sinks to including statements as absurd as that, it's time to go elsewhere in search of conversation. Which I did.

Haha, you're too kind. I just love the effect I have around here. Of course, sometimes the truth seems the most absurd of all things. Although I never even said I actually believed it, I simply said that certain people predicted it. So yeah, whoever said that may just be really stupid. I agree.

Being considered a nutcase has it's advantages, particularly when around people with partially intentional grammatically deficient interpretation of sentence structure.

 

[P5-133XL]

I lost interest when we got to the rank stupidity of claiming that a decline in population would lead to "devastating" economic impact. When debate sinks to including statements as absurd as that, it's time to go elsewhere in search of conversation. Which I did.

Haha, you're too kind. I just love the effect I have around here. Of course, sometimes the truth seems the most absurd of all things. Although I never even said I actually believed it, I simply said that certain people predicted it. So yeah, whoever said that may just be really stupid. I agree.

Being considered a nutcase has it's advantages, particularly when around people with partially intentional grammatically deficient interpretation of sentence structure.

So what you are saying is that you like being a troll -- inciting arguement just for the sake of pissing people off. Well I for one, don't appreciate your attitude.

 

[Howell]

Mark, Have you read any Wendell Berry? I like him.

Nope, never heard of him.

Manifesto:
The Mad Farmer Liberation Front

by Wendell Berry

Love the quick profit, the annual raise,
vacation with pay. Want more
of everything ready-made. Be afraid
to know your neighbors and to die.

And you will have a window in your head.
Not even your future will be a mystery
any more. Your mind will be punched in a card
and shut away in a little drawer.

When they want you to buy something
they will call you. When they want you
to die for profit they will let you know.
So, friends, every day do something
that won't compute. Love the Lord.
Love the world. Work for nothing.
Take all that you have and be poor.
Love someone who does not deserve it.

Denounce the government and embrace
the flag. Hope to live in that free
republic for which it stands.
Give your approval to all you cannot
understand. Praise ignorance, for what man
has not encountered he has not destroyed.

Ask the questions that have no answers.
Invest in the millenium. Plant sequoias.
Say that your main crop is the forest
that you did not plant,
that you will not live to harvest.

Say that the leaves are harvested
when they have rotted into the mold.
Call that profit. Prophesy such returns.
Put your faith in the two inches of humus
that will build under the trees
every thousand years.

Listen to carrion -- put your ear
close, and hear the faint chattering
of the songs that are to come.
Expect the end of the world. Laugh.
Laughter is immeasurable. Be joyful
though you have considered all the facts.
So long as women do not go cheap
for power, please women more than men.

Ask yourself: Will this satisfy
a woman satisfied to bear a child?
Will this disturb the sleep
of a woman near to giving birth?

Go with your love to the fields.
Lie down in the shade. Rest your head
in her lap. Swear allegiance
to what is nighest your thoughts.

As soon as the generals and the politicos
can predict the motions of your mind,
lose it. Leave it as a sign
to mark the false trail, the way
you didn't go.

Be like the fox
who makes more tracks than necessary,
some in the wrong direction.
Practice resurrection.

"Manifesto: The Mad Farmer Liberation Front" from The Country of Marriage, copyright ® 1973 by Wendell Berry, reprinted by permission of Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, Inc.

 

[Tannin]

I don't know quite what it means

I don't really understand it, not as a whole.

I probably don't agree with quite a lot of it

I certainly do agree with much of it.

It made me uncertain.

It made me think things over.

It made me feel things I hadn't felt before.

I need to read it again to understand a little more of it, to work out how I feel about it, maybe how I feel about lots of things.


Isn't that what great writing is supposed to do?

 

[ddrueding]

It made me feel things I hadn't felt before.

That would be Tea. Tell her to keep her hands to herself.

 

[Howell]

The Peace of Wild Things

When despair for the world grows in me
and I wake in the night at the least sound
in fear of what my life and my children's lives may be,
I go and lie down where the wood drake
rests in his beauty on the water, and the great heron feeds.
I come into the peace of wild things
who do not tax their lives with forethought
of grief. I come into the presence of still water.
And I feel above me the day-blind stars
waiting with their light. For a time
I rest in the grace of the world, and am free.

— Wendell Berry

 

[Howell]

2005 Spring Commencement:
Commencement Address
By Wendell Berry

(Note: This address may not be reprinted or reproduced without the consent of the author.)

http://www.lindsey.edu/index.cgi?id=10423

 

[mubs]

I feel Berry's pain. Thanks for sharing those deep thoughts of his with us, Howell.

 

[LiamC]

Ahh, thankyou. I think I pretty much answered that one already. You can't build any more dams: there are no rivers left worth damming, and we already have more storage capacity than we have water to fill it with. OK, they haven't quite got out of the 1950s mindset in Queensland or Tasmania yet, but that should surprise no-one.

Well, yes and no. I saw figures a week or two ago that suggested that the bulk (> 75%) of the water extracted from the Murray-Darling sysytem goes for business/commercial use. A few days later, Beattie had his mug on the news saying "we are building more dams and bugger the greenies" or words to that effect. In context, only 12% of the water for the new dams was for private use.

This throws some interesting questions. Why do small minorities (in a democracy) have such a hold on major infrastructure expenditure? I suspect the answer, but then shouldn't we be called a capitalocracy (copyright, me) instead of a democracy?

So why is our elected govt so eager to please business? I am under the impression that business users pay much less for water than private persons, so why is the "user pays" argument trotted out when water charges increase?.

 

[ddrueding]

This throws some interesting questions. Why do small minorities (in a democracy) have such a hold on major infrastructure expenditure? I suspect the answer, but then shouldn't we be called a capitalocracy (copyright, me) instead of a democracy?

So why is our elected govt so eager to please business?

You hit it on the head, I think. When it comes down to it, people want money more than they want representation. Most people these days think representation is a way for them to look out for their interests, so they can make money. If someone offers them a "shortcut", many are shortsighted enough to take it.

 

[Howell]

Aye, shortsighted. Shortsighted AND lazy.

 

[LiamC]

I should never have started this thread. Thinking through the implications is leaving me feeling disenfranchised and angry...

 

[P5-133XL]

I should never have started this thread. Thinking through the implications is leaving me feeling disenfranchised and angry...

So, you prefer blinders, than real feelings? In my world, there is nothing wrong with feeling, thinking, or questioning. Matter of fact, there is a lot of good that can come from such because then you can get involved and help with a solution. (You've got 9 other people to kill, if you want to be the one left alive ;-) ).

 

[Tannin]

You've got 9 other people to kill, if you want to be the one left alive

I have a list ..... but whatever their faults, it's difficult to condemn 9 other human beings, very difficult. How about 29?

 

[Tea]

Tannin!

 

[Tannin]

sorry....

 

[Tannin]

Look, I've been thinking about it, and I reckon I could get by with 24. Would that be OK?

 

[Tea]

Errr .... which 24?




Hmmmmm ......

Interesting.

Wow! I had no idea you felt about M- ... er ... that person in that particular way. May I ask why?

No - don't answer, I don't think I want to know. And ... er ...

Number 17 - how can you include Number 17 when that other one (you know .... whisper whisper ...) isn't listed anywh-

Sorry? You want more?!

Oh, OK then.

25.

But definately no more than ... oh all right! .. 26. And that's final!





Ummm ... perhaps I shouldn't have used the word "final" in this context.

 

[P5-133XL]

If 90% population decrease is necessary for the earth to survive, then 95% gives a little margin for error. If you need a 26:1 kill ratio, then who am I to complain as long as I'm not in the list. However, If everyone, used their entire hate-list, then soon, only the last two people on earth would be left (I prefer to hope that it was one man and one woman preparing to populate the earth again). Then, after the honeymoon was over, there'd be none and the earth would be saved for some other specie to take over in a few million years.

 

[ddrueding]

5% survival rate would be a 20:1 kill ratio, correct? Look at it this way, if we sort by highest income than we could do without SS, Medicare, Medicaid, Unemployment, Welfare and all those other support-the-lazy/incompetent services while not damaging out tax base!

*runs*

 

[P5-133XL]

5% survival rate would be a 20:1 kill ratio, correct? Look at it this way, if we sort by highest income than we could do without SS, Medicare, Medicaid, Unemployment, Welfare and all those other support-the-lazy/incompetent services while not damaging out tax base!

*runs*

Everybody can't be generals: Those top 5% earners are not going to want to pick the crops ...