Thinkpad, worth the upgrade?

[Tea]

Please excuse long post. It might be better if I give as much detail as possible here to save confusion later.

It's almost the end of the financial year and a sensible time, financially speaking, for me to upgrade my Thinkpad. The question is, how much better (if any) would the new system be? Is it worth spending the money? (Not to mention the messing about time getting the new one set up just so.)


Current system:

• Thinkpad R52
• Pentium M 1.86GHz
• 1.5GB DDR RAM
• XP Pro
• 80GB boot drive (IDE)
• 160GB data drive (IDE) (replaces the DVD drive)
• Intel built-in graphics
• The usual networking stuff
• 2 USB ports (not enough!)
• 1 PCMCIA/cardbus port (I use it)
• Crappy 15 inch screen, decent middle-of-the-range 1400 x 1050 resolution and a sensible shape (not the bloody shallow-screen pox that all the new ones inflict on you) but poor colour resolution and not nearly bright enough.
• 2 docking stations
• 2 extra batteries
• Two and a bit years old. Still functions perfectly.

Most of the time it is plugged into a docking station with external mouse and keyboard, and a 21 inch Samsung 1600 x 1280 screen. I rarely open the lid if I'm in town, just carry it from home to office and back and plug it into the docking stations.

Problems:

• Storage! I never have enough storage. I could replace the 80Gb boot drive with a 160, but that's it. 160GB is the biggest IDE drive Samsung makes, and the R52 doesn't take SATA drives. So I will have to upgrade sometime within the next year or so, because I can't live with an absolute ceiling of 320GB. (And no, external drives are not practical, not for a machine that gets carted around a fair bit.)
• Performance. It bogs down when I have too much stuff open, which is most of the time. It's not bad, but not great. Bugs me a bit. I think it is mostly a storage issue, as when I clean out the drives a bit and defrag, it gets better for a while. A clean install would probably help. Not sure how much difference dual cores would make. More RAM? Might make some difference, not a lot, I suspect. A 7200 RPM boot drive might help too, but then I'd be asking for power consumption issues on the road. Not sure if that would be worth it or not. Battery life matters. A few tasks - mainly just larger Photoslug filters like e.g., Neat Image - take a while; it would be nice if they didn't.
• No DVI. You need a discrete graphics chip to get DVI, even with a docking station. At home, this is a non-issue, picture quality is superb. At work, on an identical Samsung 214T, picture quality varies. It is usually good but can be poor sometimes, for no reason that I am aware of. Not a huge drama, as I mostly do quality-critical stuff at home.

I see lots of new Thinkpads, but they are nearly all low-spec models, usually single-core CPUs. They pretty much all have the IBM default XP install on them, which we remove a bit of crap from, but mostly leave as-shipped. They all fell a bit sluggish to me. I don't think they are giving me a decent guide to the performance I could expect from a higher-spec model with a complete clean install. That is why I am asking you guys for your views!

The replacement unit would be another Thinkpad, probably a T Series, with specs something like:

• Fastest CPU I can get at a sensible price. Dual core 2.4 or 2.5, maybe. (How much difference is there between, e.g., a 2.2 and a 2.6?)
• At least 2GB, probably 3 or 4GB of DDR-2.
• XP Pro
• 320GB boot drive (SATA) (I'll remove whatever drive ships with the Thinkpad and put a 320 in.)
• Second data drive (SATA) (replaces the DVD drive) Any size. The SATA 160 I already have lying around will do for a while. If I can get by on 320 + 160 for now, maybe I'll be able to wait till I can get a SATA 400 or 500 as the longer-term second drive.
• Discreet graphics. The on-board Intel graphics in the entry-level models (or in my current R52) is plenty capable enough for anything I will ever want - but to get DVI I need two docking stations and a discreet chip - the actual performance is immaterial.
• The usual networking stuff
• 3 USB ports (still not nearly enough!)
• I think the current Thinkpads still have a PCMCIA/cardbus slot (which I still use for my CF card reader) as well as an Express Card slot. (Though I could always replace the CF card reader - although it uses DMA it's still way slower than my new USB2 SD reader, and I assume that there are newer, better models around now.)
• Crappy shallow screen. Given that the choices in laptop screens are all poor - bad aspect ratios, insufficient backlight and contrast, poor colour reproduction, and way too small for serious use - the screen doesn't matter. 14 inch is no worse than 15 inch and might save a bit of battery life. So whatever I get. Although I use the externals wherever possible, I spend a lot of time on the road, so I guess a lower-resolution one is probably the better bet - the higher the res, in my experience, the worse the colour and contrast. I'd rather small and clear (like my old 1024 x 768 R51) than large and dim (like my 1400 x 1050 R52).
• 2 new docking stations. Old ones are not compatible. $$$$$ Ouch!
• 2 new extra batteries $$$$$ Ouch!
• 2 new power supplies, at least one of them an AC/DC dual unit. $$$$ Ouch!
• 1 new hard drive to DVD slot converter caddy thing. $$$$ Ouch!

What tangible benefits would I get if I replaced it? Obviously it will be faster, but will it be faster enough? Will I feel that I've got value for my money? Is it worth going to a bigger CPU?

 

[ddrueding]

My opinion is that the biggest choke points are your RAM and your hard drive, and those can be upgraded in your current system. I would max the ram and get to a 7200RPM boot drive and pocket the change.

But on inspection, it seems that there is no 7200RPM drive option in IDE?

 

[Fushigi]

Well, you severely limit your options when you tie your self to a single brand. Having said that:

Dual-core should respond much better. I'm pretty sure PhotoShop is multi-core aware so that should help even more. Intel's T9000 series is 45nm and should use less power. They also have 6MB cache and should perform nicely. My notebook has a T7800 and it's pretty nice.

RAM. You'd be moving up in RAM speed as well as max capacity. 2+ GB of DDR2 will help some.

Problem is, neither of the above is a deal maker. Together it would make for a noticeably faster machine but possibly not so much that you'd feel good about the investment. I think the real reason to make the upgrade would be expansion capability.

Hard drives. Newer 7200 RPM units can have the power draw of 5400 RPM units. And being SATA you will be able to use the latest/greatest and more important the largest drives available. (I understand your need for space given your photography habit; I presume a 320 GB for the day with a copy to a USB/Ethernet external at night is not reasonable? A TB of AC-powered disk is pretty cheap nowadays.)

DVI v. VGA: My laptop has discrete graphics but still lacks a DVI port. One is included on the dock, though.

PCCard & ExpressCard: My Dell has one of each so in theory they are both potential targets for added storage capcity/readers. A-Data has a 32GB ExpressCard Flash drive that's not that expensive (link. Note that the site doesn't reflect the 32GB version. Also, the pictured dongle lets you use it as a USB flash drive on machines w/o an ExpressCard slot; with an EC slot it mounts flush inside the laptop.). It would make a nice place to install apps or maybe work as a repository for temp data. Basically reduce the usage of the HDs. And being a Flash drive the power draw is practically nil.

I don't know what your current laptop requires for power, but most new laptops can get by with 65-75 watts. My D830 can use a 65W adapter although it ships with a 90W unit. So can you get away with running the laptop off an inverter in your car to extend battery (or just to charge between uses)?

If you choose to defer the new machine and as dd says just tweak the current machine, consider the possible ways to extend your battery life: Disable the serial & parallel ports (if so equipped) in the BIOS. Disable Firewire in the BIOS if not used. Disable Wireless, Bluetooth, etc. when not used. Turn off all video enhancements/tune the desktop for speed not 'prettiness'. Set your screen background color to black.

 

[ddrueding]

Set your screen background color to black.

[nitpick]
I agree with everything Fushigi said except this. LCD backlights are on all the time, having the crystals block the light requires additional energy. Having a white background consumes barely less power than black.
[/nitpick]

 

[udaman]

What tangible benefits would I get if I replaced it? Obviously it will be faster, but will it be faster enough? Will I feel that I've got value for my money? Is it worth going to a bigger CPU?

Think you meant 'faster' CPU? ^^^all above is subjective. So for the most part, that's you decision, which we cannot make for/tell you .

Grey for the background color, but that's a nitpick as none will save appreciable amounts of battery power.

I see you have a 160 SATA, could go into a USB2.0 external? Then copy the 160 PATA contents to that drive (or other), install the Samsung 160GB PATA as your *boot* drive, assuming both 80 & 160 are 5.4k rpm, the Samsung is "appreciably" faster . Largest 7.2k rpm PATA drive, IIRC is just 100GB, and would likely perform no better than the newer, higher density platter Samsung 160GB. Doing before and after HD benchmarks may give you psychological good feeling of appreciable performance gains...for a while.

1.5GB Ram, you can only expand to 2GB, correct? Then you'll notice little gain there. I've had the multiple browser windows open (dozen or so) under Camino, especially with flash or other video streaming stuff (mem leaker like FF) and still well over 200MB free ram (showing in system activity monitor, but this might not be the 'whole story'), and the system just bogs down, not sure why. Same thing happens after long sessions w/PS, you can even quite PS, reopen it and have x amount of free RAM and the system still seems more sluggish. Some kind of RAM memory corruption, I suspect. Restart is in order, to do whatever is necessary.

You might still be able to find some of the recently discontinued T61's with 'normal' aspect ratio (according to Tannin ) screen, depending on the stock in retail/distribution there in Oz...for a good price? Might be an exhaustive hassle to track one down though.

Flash drives currently do *not* save you all that much power compared to HD tech, Fushigi should do some research on that and not buy into the hype from manufacturers of SSD's.

You need space more than you need performance. Samsung should be shipping a normal height, 3 platter 500GB 5.4k drive soon (it's in the 'news' section here). If you can put up with only 320GB 7.2k rpm drive, then wait for the Hitachi to start showing up at retail levels.

Max your Ram, if it will not cost too much, on any new laptop.

new Penryn CPU's performance models 35w TDP (same as earlier releases), with Monteviña chipset coming out *later* this summer (winter for you), you'll see new model series @25w TDP that Fushigi mentioned.

Do you want to wait that long? Can you wait that long? Monteviña supports DDR3 RAM, IIRC; which is supposed to be more energy efficient, and the chipset is supposed to have support for some powersaving features---along with a better integrated GPU, though we'll have to wait to see if that makes any noticeable difference.

Can you wait even longer? 32nm process Nehalem laptops should start shipping in early 2009, all new micro-architecture, preliminary tests show significant improvement in performance, but same TDP


The Nehalem Preview: Anandtech
http://www.storageforum.net/forum/showthread.php?p=108186


Buy that time, improved LED backlit screens should see gains in powersaving, as well as greater color accuracy and wider gamut.

A faster/better performing GPU either integrated or discrete, *may* make a difference in having multiple windows open, nobody here has enough knowledge about M$ software & hardware integration to tell you one way or another.

 

[Tea]

Thanks, team, this is getting me thinking usefully. On the DD option, I could always take the current R52 up to 2Gb from the 1.5GB in it now. Wouldn't cost much, but wouldn't achieve a great deal either, I suspect. Samsung only have one 160GB IDE drive, so whatever it spins at is whatever it spins at. I don't think I'd care to trust my data to a lesser brand.

Fushigi, too bloody right I limit my options! I need this thing to, above all else, be reliable in remote places under harsh conditions, and outside a Toughbook (which is too dear and (last time I looked) not very nice to use) that means IBM ... Er ... I mean Lenovo. I suppose I could look at Fujitsiu, but in the end for two or three months of every year this isn't a briefcase and office system: it goes to deserts and rainforests and is mostly used outdoors. So it has to be tough, it gets a hammering. Dust, humidty, frost, heat, and more dust.

Storage-wise, external drives are good for back-up (I use quite a few of them, mostly 2.5 inch SATA on the road, with 3.5 inch desktop drives for home and office) but not practical for everyday use. My base data-set (i.e., the stuff I want available at any moment, home or away) is a bit over 200GB at present, and grows over time - there is always a bit of a race between my needs growth and the growth in available capacity - plus I need space for daily uploads. Around 50GB is usually more than enough, but this need goes up too as cameras provide more and more resolution. It takes me two or three hours to sort this ~20-30GB down to 2 or 3GB, which I do pretty much every night while I'm away, but by the time I've been on the road for a few weeks, I'm usually desperate for space and have to start putting ready-use stuff on the seldom-use external backup drives - i.e., buggerising around putting things in the wrong places because I'm out of room. In any case, I need a proper screen to sort that last 1-3GB down to the stuff I want to keep long-term, typically 300MB or so per active day, and masses of time. So the more internal storage I can get, the better.

Your flash drive idea is certainly worth thinking about, though I fear it might be a bit too small to beuseful just yet. Unless, maybe, I was booting off it? An idea which is not yet ripe for practical use, I suspect. Another year or two maybe.

I've been running my laptops off in-car inverter power since 2003. It works pretty well, but there are certainly still times when I need all the batteries I have - it's not always practical to use the car battery and cold weather is a bugger - the poor laptop batteries have a really hard time when there is a heavy frost (and so do I)! I must get around to buying a solar charger too: if I'm travelling a bit, the 2nd battery gets charged up through the day by the alternator, but if I stay in one place for a few days, it can't deliver enough juice to run a laptop - even though it's got a fair bit of charge left, the output voltage drops enough to trigger the under-voltage protection in the laptop and it switches to internal battery ... at which point the current draw drops, which lifts the voltage available, which triggers the laptop into mains power mode, which draws current, which drops the voltage, which triggers the under-voltage protection again, and so on. (Not just this laptop, by the way, my old one was the same. And I can't get a better-quality 2nd car battery, the Thumper is regarded as the best one you can buy - and bloody ought to be at close to $700!)

I've done all the things you mentioned to save power, except possibly the parallel port. I'll check that one. Yes, even the screen thing, not because it saves power (it doesn't on an LCD, at least not so far as I know) but because I can't stand glare. Dark backgrounds are always more restful and make you more productive.

So I guess that brings me back to the starting point:

Plan A: Buy the new one now.

Plan B: Buy a 160GB IDE drive and maybe a bit more RAM, then buy a new one sometime next year.

Cost vs performance. Back to the age-old question, it seems. I'll sleep on it and see what I think tomorrow.

 

[Fushigi]

udaman, you might want to do some research. The Hitachi HD I noted above draws 0.8 and 1.8 watts at idle/load. The Corsair 32GB Survivor (ruggedized Flash drive) draws 5V and <1mAmp/<125mA at idle/load, equating to <0.005/<0.625W. So the Flash draws less than 10% of the power of the HD at idle and only about one third as much under load (and that load is writing; reading uses half that).

Now granted, we're talking about only 1.2W difference under load, but on a laptop with a 65W power supply that's at worst (laptop drawing the full 65W) a 2% drop in system power consumption. The would probably lead to an extra 4-7 minutes of runtime.

Unfortunately I could not find power numbers for the ExpressCard I was presenting as an option, but ExpressCard Flash drives run over the USB interface so I would suspect the power draw to be similar to the Corsair.

 

[Santilli]

"outside a Toughbook (which is too dear and (last time I looked) not very nice to use) "

If you shop, I don't agree with the first part, nor the later...
CF51 has removeable hard drive caddies, which, with your problems with drives, might be a partial solution. It also uses IDE drives, and, I don't know of anything faster then the 7200 rpm Seagate I've got in it now...

My toughbook was around 1200 dollars, 1.6 ghz, awhile back, plus a bit 1.5 gigs of ram, and one extra drive caddy.

XP. Each to their own...

Total in it, around 1500, with an extra drive with Ubuntu on it...

 

[Mercutio]

My current Thinkpad T61 is an absolutely top of the line model, tricked out, every available option except the integrated camera. C2D 9500, 4GB RAM, 64GB SSD, 14" screen. The machine clocked in at about $3000 with a 3 year warranty. Thankfully, I wasn't the one buying it.

Lenovo is no longer offering 4:3 screens on T-series, though they were selling them in April. I believe the T8300 was the fastest CPU available with a 4:3 screen but maybe they did make some with 9500s (they DID make them, though). I think the screens on those were 1440x1050.

For what it's worth, the 1680x1050 screen at least has an acceptable vertical resolution; I don't feel constrained as I have on some other widescreen notebooks I've used (1280x600? Seriously?).

I just did a deployment of R-series models as well. R-series are generally lighter and may or may not have a titanium frame, depending on the model, but my comments generally apply to the R-series as well.

The new C2D chips generally run slightly hotter than previous generation, or there's been a change in the cooling design for current-model T61s; the CPU fan runs more often than on my "old" (vintage January) T7400 T61 or my older (vintage late 2006 Core Duo) T60, and the bottom actually gets warm enough to be called "warm."

XP Pro is an available option from Lenovo (and also Dell, if you go that route); Lenovo will pre-install XP Pro and sell you a Vista Business license. They have no plans to stop doing that. Personally, I'm running Server 2008 and SuSE 10 on mine.

The T61 has a SATA Ultrabay available at purchase. The PATA one from my T60 works in all my T6x Thinkpads as well, though at this point I don't bother to carry it any more.

Now, for the important part: Battery life. On the "power saver" plan in Windows XP, I typically see between five and six hour with modest use (as in, I do a bit of work, then wander off with screwdriver in hand for a little while), or about 3:30 if I'm working constantly. "Constant work" includes leaving 802.11 and Bluetooth running, and may also include burning a DVD.
I can get something around six hours of constant use if I have both the 9 cell battery and the Ultrabay battery in, or something around 10 hours if I'm letting the power saving do its thing.

In any case, I can basically get a full, normal day of work in my office out of the 9-cell battery if I'm in Windows (SuSe is not so easy on my battery, but I installed it myself. Lenovo might customize it somehow that I don't know).

Vista battery life is slightly lower (20 minutes or so less) if you don't turn off Aero and Indexing, but I do. Obviously, buying one of the non-Integrated graphics models is also going to negatively impact battery life; I suspect it's a non-trivial amount, though I don't have any first-hand experience with that. I do know that the Quadro isn't bringing all that much to the table as far as pixel-pushing, but that's supposed to not be important anyway for your applications.

Yes, the SSD helps with the power situation though typically not as much as I might've hoped. My guess is maybe an extra half hour of run time (I haven't had it THAT long...). Subjectively, the OS starts and resumes quite a bit faster, but most of my work is not terribly file intensive so I seldom see the benefit when I'm word processing, giving presentations or web browsing.

I also bought several spare AC adapters (genuine ones; there are knock offs) off Ebay for about half what the sell for from Lenovo. Generally accessories are easily found used. Batteries are the only thing I'm picky in getting from Lenovo.

My bag at the moment: T61, AC adapter, Sprint EVDO expresscard, Ultrabay DVD-RW, Ultrabay SATA with drive (2nd battery is usually installed), 2 screwdrivers, a half dozen thumb drives, 2 USB cables (regular and mini), 2 ethernet cables, 2 pens and a pencil, a couple blank CDs and USB notebook hard disk. The whole kit weighs in at about 10lbs which in my opinion is close to perfect.

 

[LunarMist]

Welcome back, Merc!

 

[timwhit]

I just recommended a friend get the T61 with the 15.4" screen and discreet graphics. He said it wasn't an option to get Windows XP when he ordered it. Does he have to do something special?

Good to see you back, Merc.

 

[LunarMist]

I just recommended a friend get the T61 with the 15.4" screen and discreet graphics.

Why, is he/she watching pornos?

 

[Mercutio]

He said it wasn't an option to get Windows XP when he ordered it. Does he have to do something special?

He may have been looking at a vendor web site rather than directly at Lenovo's. XP Pro is a $22 upgrade from Vista Home Premium, which is what ships on Thinkpads by default.

 

[timwhit]

Why, is he/she watching pornos?

He didn't tell me exactly what he is going to use it for, I guess it could be anything. I think the main reason he wants it is because he's going to get his MBA and his current company is taking back his work laptop.

If you are referring to the misspelling of the word "discrete," I apologize for this bungle.

 

[ddrueding]

Nothing to say, except welcome back Merc!

 

[paugie]

Great comeback, Merc!
Hoo! Haa!

 

[LunarMist]

If you are referring to the misspelling of the word "discrete," I apologize for this bungle.

Just a little joke.

 

[Tannin]

My thanks again to all who responded, in particular to Merc - a most welcome return, my friend.

Well, events seem to have overtaken me. After much thought, I decided to upgrade the hard drive in the old R52 and go till the end of the year with that, perhaps it would be enough to take me into early 2009.

But then things happened. A customer has a similar R52 - almost identical in fact - and it has gone faulty; it needs a motherboard replacement. Round figures, that would cost me maybe $1200 or $1400. (It is under warranty from us, but outside the factory warranty, so I have to bear that cost.)

Our options are:

• Have the mainboard replaced. Cost maybe $1300, some delay involved as the part is out of stock with Lenovo Australia. No idea how much delay that means - a week, a month? Who knows?
• Replace the entire unit with a new one to similar spec - that woud be an R61e; entry-level single core CPU, 120GB hard drive, none of the higher-spec goodies like multiple pointing device options and etc.
• Give them my R52 an buy a new one for myself. The specs are almost identical: mine has Intel on-board graphics (as against a 64MB ATI card), but against that has 1.5GB of RAM (as against 1GB) and a 1.86GHz Pentium-M (as against 1.8GHz).

Each option has disadvantages:

• Repair: the delay - who knows how long. Also, for me, it's quite expensive.
• Replace: no delay to speak of, but they won't be able to use their existing accessories: batteries, power supplies and in particular their docking stations are all incompatible with the current models. A bit cheaper for me though.
• Swap: they no longer have a stand-alone graphics chip, but gain some other good stuff. No delay to speak of, and (bonus!) they can keep their existing Windows install - just swap the hard drive over. For me, lots more expensive.

So I called the customer and talked it over. We decided to go with #3 - they are taking my R52 and I am getting a new one.

I had planned to buy a T Series this time, largely because Merc keeps saying how much better they are, though I don't care at all about size and weight. But, as it happens, Lenvo have a rather nicely-specced R61 at a very good price right now - something in the rough order of $1000 less than I was expecting to pay for a similar-spec T Series - and I needed to make a decision today, so I went with it.

It is:

• R61
• C2D T8300 2.4GHz
• 2GB (2 x 1GB) upgradable to 4GB (2 x 2GB) I may or may not worry about the RAM at present; probably just do it later.
• 250GB (I might put a 500 in right away, or might leave it go for now. Not sure.)
• Nvidia NB8M-GS 128MB (whatever that is - I don't keep up with laptop graphics chipsets, and in any case it doesn't matter, all I need is a stand-alone chip so that I have DVI capability).
• 15.4 inch 1680 x 1050 screen. Possibly the worst screen I could get, as I'll bet London to a brick that it is nowhere near bright enough for outdoor use even in deep shadow, and has dreadful color balance. Oh well, I was never going to get a decent screen on a Thinkpad in the first place. Standard aspect ratio screens, by the way, have not been available with any Thinkpad in Australia for a long time now, maybe 6 or 12 months past.
• Vista Business (which will, of course, be replaced immediately by XP Pro). Unlike most of their models, they don't have an XP preloaded version of this one. No matter: I'll just have to put up with activating over the telephone each time. Again by the way, in Australia pretty much every Thinkpad ships with either XP Pro or Vista Business. We don't generally see the non-XP licenced Vista versions (Home, Home Premium, etc.) on Thinkpads here.
• A pair of mini-docks (extra cost, of course)
• An AC/DC 12V capable PSU (extra cost - and more than double the price of a regular AC PSU, the greedy buggers)
• A SATA gizmo to allow replacement of the DVDRW with a second hard drive (extra cost)
• A carry bag (which I don't need) and a spare AC adaptor (which I also don't particularly need) because they were bundled with the unit at no cost and the alternative was a port replicator (which doesn't do DVI and does require an extra PSU and thus is useless to me).

Later on I'll get around to odering a couple of 9-cell batteries. The place I get the 3rd-party ones from has done OK so far, so I'll stick with them - about half the price of the Lenovo-branded ones, and seem to be just as good, apart from one 9-cell unit that mysteriously stopped holding charge after 18 months or so of not-very-heavy use. I just bought another: I'm still a few dollars better off than if I'd bought the branded one. I perhaps could have gone the Ebay route for the AC/DC PSU, but I don't have the time to mess about with Ebay.

Anyway, having just abused Dave D for buying a new camera in a hurry without asking me first, I just did the same thing. Guess I'll just have to take my lumps.

 

[ddrueding]

You did exactly what I would have done (the speedy choice, and the laptop you picked). Not sure if that is a good thing in your book, but it got me smiling

 

[Mercutio]

I have an amazing difficulty imagining life with a notebook as a primary computer. I probably would've built myself a desktop and limped along with faster drives and a real screen until I could've gotten the "no compromises" notebook from China.

I really don't think there's anything wrong with Rs. I just wish they all had the titanium frame that the Ts do.

Anyway, I saw this on Slashdot today. It is oddly apropos.

 

[ddrueding]

I've always had a beast desktop and a basic laptop capable of RDC. When I am in the field for more than a couple days going through batches of photographs on a tiny screen without a real mouse just sucks.

 

[Clocker]

I just bought an R61 and could not be happier with it. I originally considered the T-series but could not see paying the price premium for it. The small amount of research I've done indicates that it is just a little bit thicker than the T-series and that's the main difference.

http://www.gizmag.com/go/7232/

Comparing the R61 to the T61

Traditionally, the R series Thinkpads have been positioned and manufactured as budget versions of the T series units. While this is still somewhat the case, there are many fewer differences between the two devices we saw than in previous generations. Both units use the same "lid", and get the same roll cage improvements. Both units get updated to Intel's Santa Rosa technology. Both units have the same display resolution options, and WiFi/WWAN options. In fact, the only significant differences are that the R61 has a 12.5mm chassis design vs. the T61's 9mm design; and the fact that the fastest processor speed is only available for the T series. In the "mid-range" configuration of these units, this translates into a trade off between 3.5mm of thickness vs. a US$500 savings. For us, it's a really hard decision to pick which way is the correct way to go. In the past it's been easy to spend the extra money for the "flash" of the T series, but these significant upgrades to the R series make it a much harder choice.

 

[Mercutio]

There is *no* price premium for the T-series, when compared to units in the same weight and performance class as similar models from Dell, HP or Toshiba. In fact, Ts usually come out cheaper if your buying anything but the baseline model from each product line.

 

[Tannin]

Clocker, I just couldn't see the value for money in going with a T Series - almost double the price, at least on paper the same performance. Size just doesn't matter to me - I'd have a much bigger laptop (let's say a 20 inch non-shallow screen) if Lenovo made one. As long as I can lift it with one hand and run it on batteries OK, the rest is irrelevant.

Now to your implied question, Merc. How do I live with a notebook as my priimary machine? And why?

First, my need for on-line storage is small. I've been getting by (just!) with 240GB total. When my new one arrives on Monday I'll immediately replace the Vista-riddled 250GB drive it ships with with a 320GB Samsung I ordered yesterday. (Biggest Samsung 2.5" drive I can get right now, though it seems that 500GB units are going to be here Real Soon Now.) I'll slip the 160GB SATA drive I already have (currently an external backup unit) in for the time being as a data drive, swap it for a 500 when they arrive.

I need plenty of long-term storage (I'm running about 4TB with ~1TB free right now) but that doesnt have to be on-line, so it its in my seldom-used desktop - currently a single-core Athlon 64 3500 with 1GB RAM, which is plenty fast enough. It's really just a file server so a P III 1000 with 512MB would actually be OK.

Performance-wise, the Thinkpad is a little lack-lustre, but it actually task-switches reasonably well, and it's task-switching performance that matters most to me. Apart from Photoslug, almost all my other apps are CPU friendly; none of them do any number-crunching worth talking about - I'm talking web browsers, text editors, PMView (which although it handles heaps of large graphics files is small, fast, and nimble - it also has a superb read-ahead caching algorithm, so most image read operations are to all intents and purposes instant. However, I tend to run a zillion instances of my small, fast programs, so being able to swap between them rapidly is cruical. The Pentium-M does pretty well at this - in the same ballpark as an Athlon, an vastly better than any Pentium 4 ever was.

Graphics performance is a total non-issue. I can't see any difference between my R52 with whatever crappy graphics chipset Intel provided and the biggest, meanest graphics card on the planet. (Obviously, I don't play games.)

As for optical drive performance, I don't even have one. I just map a network drive when I need to read a CD or DVD, maybe once every three months.

So there are the biggies: CPU performance bugs me mildly, storage is covered, graphics is irrelevant.

Now the small items:

Keyboard and mouse:

Keyboard. At home or at the office, I always use external keyboards. On the road, I carry an external, and sometimes use it, sometimes leave it in the car.

Mouse. The only time I ever use the built-in mouse substitute thingies is when I am on the road and using too many USB devices - i.e., when there is nowhere to plug a real pointing device in - the R52 has a miserley 2 USB ports - yes, believe it or not, two. Even the R61 has only three - and the extra one will be very useful. But even with only 2, that circumstance is rare. I often don't have enough ports for an external keyboard, but only can't fit a full-size trackball when I'm backing up one USB drive to another. Generally I don't need to do that.

Screen. I actually never even open the laptop lid up unless I'm on the road: it lives in docking stations the whole time, and outputs to a pair of Samsung 214Ts.

So, in summary, I live with a modest CPU and hard drive performance hit - in daily use, nothing else about the laptop is any different from a desktop - same screens, same keyboards, and so on. But it's not about having a laptop insted of a desktop. It's about having a laptop instead of two desktops.

In my old, pre-laptop days, I was forever buggerising about looking for data that wasn't here at home, or taking work home and forgetting to bring it back to work, and thus having to do it again to save driving home to get it. Worse, I could never get a proper filing system working as well as I wanted - with two machines, you need to keep track of office stuff, home stuff, shared stuff, office stuff I sometimes need at home, home stuff I need to be able to access at the office now and then ..... mess.

Then I got a laptop for trips, and everything got worse! I had office stuff, home stuff, laptop stuff, shared between office and laptop stuff, shared between laptop and home stuff, office stuff I sometimes need on the road ..... big mess.

Now I just have my stuff. Just that change alone saves me something like 10X more time than the performace penalty costs me. Then there is the administration overhead: I can do one install of whatever software I need, run one update whenever a new browser version comes out, have one list of things to do or people to call.

The only thing I have to be ultra-aware of is data security: frequent quality backups are essential, where in the old disorganised days I could be pretty sloppy about backing up because I'd probably have another copy on another machine somewhere.

The only thing that really bugs me is the dreadful inbuilt screens. On my 2006 trip, I actually went to the trouble of finding a 19 inch desktop TFT monitor that ran on 12V DC and took it with me to Cape York and back - a 14,000 kilometre round trip, and well worth the trouble.

 

[Clocker]

There is *no* price premium for the T-series, when compared to units in the same weight and performance class as similar models from Dell, HP or Toshiba. In fact, Ts usually come out cheaper if your buying anything but the baseline model from each product line.

Hi Merc. Welcome back. My reference to price premium was in relation to the R series. To me, all the extra you have to pay for the T-series to get the relatively small differences relative to the R-series just was not worth it. Then again, mine is just used at home so ultra thin and ultra light weight is not necessary for me. Like Tannin, my only criteria was something I can easily move with one hand. I also wanted a 14" WXGA+ screen and a trackpoint for easy use while relaxing on the couch or in bed.

 

[Mercutio]

As a car guy, it might make more sense if we relate this to cars. Toyota makes a Camry, which is a perfectly nice, reasonable car that I would hazard to guess is an ideal car for your typical urban/suburban 3-person family.

Toyota also makes an Avalon, which has all the same functions a Camry, but in a nicer and more comfortable package for a not-unjustifiable higher price.

I'd say apples and oranges, but that phrase might introduce a whole other layer of confusion.

Laptop weight, size and durability are huge and important factors to me, because I carry mine with me everyplace I go and need to be able to pull it out and use it where ever I am. I need the modular features of the T-series sometimes, because by definition my need for a laptop is for one I can use in places where I can't use a desktop. I essentially already HAVE a desktop everywhere I might normally need a computer.

The durability, size and weight (admittedly, this can go either way; it's possible to get a lighter T61 than R61 but it means using a 4 cell battery instead of a 9, but Rs are going to be bulkier regardless; they're physically larger) and the modular bay all represent features that not everyone can justify, but other people will find essential. I could probably get by with an R-series, but for my needs it would be sub-optimal.

 

[Tannin]

First impressions: it doesn't seem as physically robust as the old R52, probably because of the silly long and narrow shape as much as any other factor, but still miles in advance of the flimsy carp that you get from Toshiba, HP, & etc.

Performance is .... hmmm .... OK. Faster, but as someone above suggested, not by any means brain-snapping.

The worst feature ..... easy to pick that one: the factory hard drive (250GB SATA) came pre-loaded with Vista, but the Vista isn't the problem - I replaced that drive with a 320GB Samsung without even switching the Vista version on. Nope, it was the 250GB drive itself, which I had planned to use in a USB box as an external backup unit. It ... how shall I put this without offending any one .... er .... well .... its initials are Western Digital. I'll just buy another Samsung for my backup drive, but what should I do with the factory one? Seems a shame to just throw it away, but what else it is good for?

 

[ddrueding]

Seems a shame to just throw it away, but what else it is good for?

EBay. Don't sell it to a customer, because then you would have to support it. Just unload it to someone you won't have to deal with.

 

[LunarMist]

Lucky b*stards, I wish I could use one of those Thinkpads.

 

[ddrueding]

Lucky b*stards, I wish I could use one of those Thinkpads.

Why can't you? Saddled with a corporate box?

 

[Tannin]

A Thinkpad would do Lunar just fine ..... if it had about nine 1TB external drives .......

 

[Bozo]

Lucky b*stards, I wish I could use one of those Thinkpads.

Must be nice to be able to just throw away a pefectly good hard drive. I work too hard for my money to do that, no matter what brand it is.

Bozo :joker:

 

[LunarMist]

Why can't you? Saddled with a corporate box?

I don't mean for business. Work computers of any type are useless to me due to lack of admin rights. Personal notebooks are limited by the size that fits in with my other gear. Any of the Thinkpads I'd want are too large.

 

[LunarMist]

Must be nice to be able to just throw away a pefectly good hard drive. I work too hard for my money to do that, no matter what brand it is.

Bozo :joker:

I have a bunch of useless 160GB and smaller PATA notebook drives that I will never use for anything again. It happens when technology moves on.

 

[Tannin]

Ahh .... but is it a pefectly good hard drive? My more recent experience with Western Digital drives suggests that it's just as likely to be a data-security timebomb waiting for the worst possible moment to fail. I'd be happy enough to use it for unimportant data that I didn't really care about if I lost it, but the stuff I have that's unimportant enough to trust to a suspect drive is too large to fit on a 250GB unit anyway. I probably should just dump that data and move on.

I'd send you the drive, Bozo, but the price of 250GB drives these days it's not worth messing about with international shipping. I'll probably just hang on to it until some self-opiniated optimist comes into the shop and complains that I "only" have Samsung drives and he wan't to buy a "proper" brand like Western Digital. If he anoys me with his attitude enough, I'll keep my mouth shut, hand over the drive, and pocket the money.

(And then - sigh - replace the bloody thing under warranty when it fails, I suppose.)

 

[Fushigi]

One thought would be to use it in a tiered backup strategy. That way it sees relatively little use and the data it stores - important or not - is always on at least one more drive somewhere.

 

[mubs]

Methinks though that Samsung's reliability is not the same it was. True?

 

[Tannin]

About the same, Mubs. It remains a great rarity for us to see a failed drive (one of our own, I mean, and our drives have been all Samsungs for a long time now. The last non-Samsung drives we sold new would have been a handful of Seagate 80GB units. Or were those trade-ins? Yes, so it was probably Seagate and Western Digital 40GB drives. I'm struggling to remember now, it was that long ago. I did have a new laptop drive fail 2 months out a while back, but that was the factory-fitted Hitachi drive in a Thinkpad. Lenovo's service response, by the way, was excellent: they cross-shipped a replacement within a couple of days.

 

[Bozo]

Odd that we discuss WD hard drives when a Gateway E-4200 is sat on my work bench. "won't boot"
Inside I find the original WD Caviar 36400, dated 30 Jun 98, dead. Best anyone can remember it has been running 24/7/365 since new.
I believe that leaving them run is the best for long life. Starting and stopping kills them quick. My corp box is shutdown every night and started every morning. I'm on my second hard drive in less than 3 years.

Bozo

 

[Mercutio]

I suggest using it to hold down papers on your desk.

I've never seen a Lenovo/Thinkpad with a WD drive. I'm not too sure I've ever seen one in a business class notebook. That's the sort of thing I'd notice, too.