Upgrade compareson

[P5-133XL]

I am examining upgrading 7 systems from Barton 2500+ to a more modern setup. This comes about because the motherboards on 5 of the 7 systems are showing instability problems. So in am comparing 939, AM2, Core 2 Duo, Opteron, and Woodcrest platforms. One machine will be equiped for gaming, the others will be generic business platforms. I hope you find my cost research interesting. All prices are low pricewatch as of 8-20-06. Feel free to comment away.

I'll start out with the simple 939 platform. This of course will eliminate future expansion, but will optimize the reuse of components. No need for RAM, PS, video and cases, except for the gaming machine.

939 platform

$87. x7 = $609. MB: Gigabyte GA-K8N51PVM9-RH (integrated 6150 graphics, micro-atx)
$249. x7 = $1,743. CPU: 4600+ Athlon64 X2 (939)
$280. x1 = $280. Video: HIS 1900GT
$132. x1 = $132. PS: Seasonic S12-500

Total est. upgrade cost $2,764. (939 platform)

On the AM2, we get to save on Video, and PS, except for the gaming machine.

AM2 platform

$93. x7 = $651. MB: Gigabyte GA-M55plus-s3g (Integrated 6100 graphics, ATX)
$258. x7 = $1,806. CPU 4600+ Athlon64 X2 (AM2)
$280. x1 = $280. Video: His 1900GT
$201. x7 = $1,407. RAM: 2x1GB Crucial DDR2 PC-5300
$132. x1 = $132. PS Seasonic S12-500

Total est. upgrade cost $4,276. (AM2 platform)

On the Core 2 Duo platform, everything is replaced.



Core 2 Duo platform

$230. x7 = $1,610. MB: Gigabyte GA-965p-DQ6 (upgrade reliability, no intetegrated graphics)
$366. x7 = $2,562. CPU: E6600 Core 2 Duo
$280. x1 = $280. Video: His 1900GT
$59. x6 = $354. Video: x1300
$132. x1 = $132. PS: Seasonic S12-500
$82. x6 = $422. PS: Seasonic S12-430 (need the EPS-12V [8 pin] for MB
$201. x7 = 1,407. RAM: 2x1GB Crucial DDR PC-5300

Total est. upgrade cost = $6,767 (Core 2 Duo)

Again with the woodcrest, everything gets replaced.



Woodcrest platform

$380. x3 = $1,140. MB: Supermicro X7DAL-E
$506. x3 = $1,518. RAM: 4x1GB Crucial FB-RAM PC-4200
$280. x1 = $280. Video: His 1900GT
$59. x2 = $118. Video: x1300
$155 x3 = $465. PS: Seasonic S12-600
$470 x6 = $2,820. CPU: Xeon 5140

Total est. upgrade cost = $6,341 (Woodcrest)



Also with the 940 Opteron, everything gets replaced.

Opteron - 940 platform

$323 x3 = $969. MB: Supermicro H8DCE (I wanted to switch to PCI-E, which dictated the MB).
$704 x3 = $2,112. RAM 4x1GB Crucial Registered, ECC DDR PC 3200
$280. x1 = $280. Video: His 1900GT
$59. x2 = $118. Video: x1300
$199 x3 = $597. PS: PC Power and cooling 750W (MB minimum is 650W)
$476 x6 = $2,856. CPU Opteron 270

Total est. upgrade cost = $6,932


Opteron - Socket F

Could not find any Socket F motherboards on Pricewatch. I'm sure they are comming.



My conclusion is that for a cost effective upgrade, nothing even comes close to upgrading to 939 x2's. Yes, I can get more performance else where and yes, there are distinct future upgrade issues, but for cost effective upgrade this is it. Comments welcome.

 

[LiamC]

AM2 needs DDR-2 PC-6400 (DDR2-800) to (very marginally) out perform PC-3200 (DDR-400)

see here for more info (you'll need to assess the entire review)
http://www.techreport.com/reviews/2006q2/socket-am2/index.x?pg=2

Personally, I don't see the issue raised on the linked page (Pg. 2) as an issue--754 & 939 Athlon 64's do exactly the same thing. AMD does this to minimise latency.

 

[P5-133XL]

My rational for choosing PC2-5300:

Cost matters and PC2-6400 ($339/2GB) was signifigently more expensive than PC2-5300 ($201/2GB) while the system performance gains are negligible. I didn't judge the additional cost worthwhile. I was willing to go PC-5300 over PC2-4200 ($198/2GB) or PC2-3200 ($193/2GB)

 

[P5-133XL]

Now I did limit the brands used for the estimates, if for no other reason than to limit the choices to a reasonable number. Mb: Gigabyte or Supermicro where there was no appropiate choice; Power supplies Seasonic, and PC Power and cooling when there was no appropiate Seasonic choic; Ram: Crucial. The brands chosen all generally produce superior and/or cost effective products and would cover whatever was needed. I am willing to discuss other brands, on their merit.

Liam, Perhaps my reply did not address your actual comment. Yes, I know you are entirely correct that you need at least DDR2 PC2-6400 to get the the same or better RAM performance as DDR PC-3200. My point is that high speed ram, generally is not a cost effective upgrade: You may get upto a 10% system performance improvement, but that is not enough to produce a noticeable change in anything other than benchmarking. I'm just not willing to spend an extra $900+ (for 7 machines each paying an additional 50% or $138) for that 10%.

I have to admit, I didn't even consider the 754 platform choice. Can you even get X2 processors that run on 754?

 

[ddrueding]

I agree with your reasoning on the RAM speeds, and would further mention that 4600+ CPUs are significant overkill. 3800+ is more than sufficient. Touching back on our upgrade thread earlier this week, planning on upgrading typically is silly. What upgrades have you made to the current systems in their lifetime? The only reason to choose AM2 over S939 is if you plan on upgrading the CPU over time to something more than a 4800+ (unlikely).

With this reasoning in place none of the other upgrades make sense, either.

My 2 cents...

 

[P5-133XL]

My sole reason for 4600+ over the 3800+ was FAH where CPU performance really does matter.

 

[LiamC]

...

I have to admit, I didn't even consider the 754 platform choice. Can you even get X2 processors that run on 754?

No. Though strangely enough, the Turion X2 uses a 631 pin package so I don't think that there is any reason apart from marketing that prevents (possibly electrical) AMD from releasing one. The reason I even mentioned S754 is more FYI for others that read this thread (lurkers in the main). Some may consider the memory speed an issue, some may not.

I'd actually like to thank you for taking the time to post this information because it does highlight when and where upgrading can be cost effective, and where it isn't.

 

[LiamC]

My sole reason for 4600+ over the 3800+ was FAH where CPU performance really does matter.

Does memory bandwidth?

The reason I ask is that I resurrected an Athlon XP 1800+ on a PC Chips (Go Tony!) SDRAM motherboard and it seems to be performing below par...

Then again, it is a PC Chips mobo...

:eekers:

 

[P5-133XL]

Does memory bandwidth?

The reason I ask is that I resurrected an Athlon XP 1800+ on a PC Chips (Go Tony!) SDRAM motherboard and it seems to be performing below par...

Then again, it is a PC Chips mobo...

:eekers:

For Folding, memory BW can matter, but generally doesn't. It all depends on the specific WU. The classic were QMD's which were definately RAM BW limited, to the point that the CPU basicly didn't matter. For the vast majority of WU's, the performance limiter is the FP capability of the CPU. With some, it is the SSE/SSE2/SSE3 instruction set capability.

If you really want to know if your specific machine is performing under par, see FAHInfo.org. The person there is and has collected performance data for lots of maches/CPU's on lots of different WU's. Compare your CPU performance to others...

P.S. You always get what you deserve when you buy a PC Chips MB and it ain't envy.

 

[Buck]

Very nice comparison Mark. All good choices for your service needs. As has been mentioned, outside of FAH, the 4600+ are overkill. For office work, the 3800+ provides plenty of power.

 

[Mercutio]

I would be strongly inclined to stick with the platform that lets me re-use the RAM I have already. I don't think there's much gain to be had in DDR2. Particularly when the "good stuff" isn't affordable to begin with.

IMO 939 has a lot of life left in it.

 

[mubs]

After all this "sell your soul for a Core Duo" business, I was feeling bad about having just invested in a 939-socket 4400+ system. You guys cheered me up. Thanks :-D

 

[Adcadet]

$230 x7 for motherboards for the Conroe systems? Must be some nice motherboards.

 

[Buck]

$230 x7 for motherboards for the Conroe systems? Must be some nice motherboards.

Probably Supermicro.

 

[P5-133XL]

I agree, that the conroe MB was a very expensive MB compared to the AMD's, but Now mind you, the Conroe MB's don't cost nearly what the Woodcrest or the Opteron MB's do. Fortunately, the Conroe MB has some features that I can appreciate -- It has have solid capacitors; 12-phase voltage regulation; Heat pipes, and massive copper heat-sinks to cool MB components: A set of very nice thing to have when dealing with reliability. Really it is way over-designed. Further, the choices for Conroe motherboards, from Gigabyte were rather limited (I'm sure that will change with time): effectively no budget boards. So, if I'm to get expensive MB's, I decided to get something worth getting.

The cost of the MB is actually even worse than the listed $230. Because of the specific MB, All the power supplies had to be replaced with ones that had EPS-12v (8-pin plugs). That one characteristic add $130-150 per motherboard! Other MB's, in the selection did not have that specific requirement.

Now in the Conroe system setup, there is one cost that is to their favor and that is electricity usage. Conroes/woodcrest, inhierantly use signifigently less power than any of the other choices. The problem is that I don't have any good data on how much electricity is being saved on a system-wide data. I'd love to be able to incorporate that into the cost analysis.

Since I run FAH 24x7, the operating costs are signifigent. for example, with my 10 current systems (7 2500+ bartons, and 3 3.2 GHz P4's), I spend a little over $100 /month in electricity. That averages out to be $10/month/system. If the Conroes can cut that in 1/2 then I save $5/month/system and over 3 years I could save 7 systems x $5 x 36 months or $1260 and that is worth incorperating into the analysis.

The problem is, that that $5 savings is entirely a guess. I need better data, than a guess, as to how much is being saved, before adding it into the analysis. Anyone want to use a Killa-Watt meter on their Conroe and AMD systems and supply data?

 

[P5-133XL]

Correction to the above post the additional PS expense was $82-$132 rather than the numbers quoted above.

 

[LiamC]

At the wall
http://www.techreport.com/reviews/2006q3/core2/index.x?pg=16

CPU and System consumption
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/amd-energy-efficient_6.html
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/core2duo-shootout_11.html

Do these help?

 

[P5-133XL]

Given that data, I'm willing to give the Intel processors a 30% system power savings. This will give the intel Core Duo a discount of $756 and the Woodcrest a $648 discount when extrapolated out to 3 years with a 24x7 100% duty cycle.

Mind you that this is a very rough estimate with rather massive (very likely untrue) assumptions like an E6300 will produce a very similar power-usage as a E6600 or a Xeon 5140. Further I'm assuming the power usage of a 4600+ is similar to an XP Barton. Then there is the assumption that my power costs are equivilent to everyone else in the world. Still it is only fair, to give the Intel processors credit for their power-saving designs.

It still doesn't change any of my conclusions. However, if I was buying new, rather than an upgrade, I believe that I would be buying the Core-2-Duo systems. But the savings of not having to purchase a signifigent amount of HW (like RAM, Video cards, and PS) still makes the 939 AMD purchase the best upgrade deal for me.

 

[Mercutio]

You're also making the assumption that there won't be some kind of change in energy prices over the life of the systems. I'd guess that there will be, and that change will favor the most energy efficient chips.

On the other hand, I saw a real reduction in my power bill when I switched en masse from AthlonXPs to Athlon64s. You're going to get some benefit in that regard now matter what you do. Unless you take leave of your senses and buy a bunch of Northwood P4s.

At this point it's my belief that the best bargain on the market for the average (not P5-133XL, but other people) is the $100, single-core A64/3800. That's basically taking the bet that more people will use their computers for a single task at a time, but the feedback I have received suggests that is the case far more often than not.

Mark, do you actually need seven machines? I ended up consolidating a lot of my systems in the face of dual-core CPUs and free copies of VMware.

 

[P5-133XL]

You are correct, I doubt I really need 7 machines because yes, most can be delt with using VMware. I originally built this lab before virtualization and I needed multiple machines to test software and hardware against multiple OS's and KVM's were the solution of choice. I really budgeted based on the HW I currently have, without consideration of VMware with the exception of the Woodcrest/Opteron platforms where I simply halved the machines and doubled the number of processors with the expectation of using VMware extensively. Really it comes to the fact that I should change my habits and use VMware much more consistantly regardless.

However, I'm not going to buy all the machines at once. First, while supposedly, Micro-ATX boards will fit Full ATX cases, I'm not a believer untill, I've done it. So, I've ordered only one MB, and one processor, just so I can check out that single issue. If that works well, then I can make a judgement call as to the rest of the machines. I really don't build machines that often.

There really isn't a hurry: None of the machines have totally failed: I've just had to drop the number of ram slots used (to one) and start underclocking the machines to keep them from blue-screening on a regular basis. Total failure will happen, it's just a matter of time. I did actually ship one MB (Giga-Byte won't cross-ship and I wasn't willing to bring down the entire lab for upto 2 months) for warrentee service. It came back stable but with a new problem: The 80 pin ATA ports will only operate in UDMA33 mode. rediculous! Once I've upgraded the machines, is it worth the hassle to get Giga-Byte to imperfectly repair all these motherboards, that I probably won't use?

By the way, for those that think I'm crazy even bothering upgrading, I did actually consider just replacing the motherboards as the cheapest option. I totally rejected that based on the only brands that still sell Nforce2 MB's: They are the lowest of the low...

Now the next question of the day -- Who makes good quality cost-effective 4/8 port DVI KVM's? Once upgraded, All the machines will have both DVI and VGA ports. One of the choices I can make with this upgrade is to switch from VGA to DVI. I did end up buying a Dell 2407FPW monitor as my main replacement monitor, so it will operate using either plug, but DVI is always the perfered choice. It is cheaper, to simply use my current setup and is totally functional.

 

[Pradeep]

4 port DVI KVM with USB:

http://avocent.com/web/en.nsf/Content/SwitchViewDVI-4port

However you are looking at around $200 plus shipping.

 

[Adcadet]

Is there any signal degredation over DVI with modern KVMs. I'm planning on building a new computer and I'd love to be able to use a new flat panel monitor for my old and new computer. Are there any decent 2-port models for less than the $80+ price tag I'm seeing at Newegg?

 

[P5-133XL]

4 port DVI KVM with USB:

http://avocent.com/web/en.nsf/Content/SwitchViewDVI-4port

However you are looking at around $200 plus shipping.

Good brand -- I am currently using their Non-DVI switchview KVM (When they were Cybex). But the cost is closer to $250 + 4 x $35 == $400 including four 6" cable sets. Nice, but I'll stick with the currently functional KVM. At least DVI KVM's are in commen existance now: It took them a long time.

Thanks.

 

[Pradeep]

6 foot dual link DVI cables:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/p...cs_id=1020901&p_id=2686&seq=1&format=2&style=

About $11 dollars each in the quantity you are looking at.

If you want to go real cheap they have a 4 port manual rotary DVI switcher for about $60.

 

[Pradeep]

Is there any signal degredation over DVI with modern KVMs. I'm planning on building a new computer and I'd love to be able to use a new flat panel monitor for my old and new computer. Are there any decent 2-port models for less than the $80+ price tag I'm seeing at Newegg?

If you are interested in running at 1920*1200 and beyond, look for a switcher that is dual link capable.

 

[Mercutio]

If you have a DVI-capable monitor, why not just use the VGA cable for the secondary PC and use the input select on the display? If both the PCs are fairly close, you can just set a second keyboard and mouse on top of the PC when you aren't using 'em.

 

[Adcadet]

Haven't thought of that. Thanks, Merc.

Of course, I could just use VNC to control the other computer I suppose.