what is the point?

[honold]

i ended up here as a result of a reference from someone (i believe mercutio) to one of cas' posts here. been here since.

i'm seeing posts about attracting more people, about making posts, saying 'that's what this place is about - sharing information.' what prevented all of you from sharing the same information on storagereview?

i'm now seeing solicitations to write articles to draw traffic - i even threw my name into the hat to see what would happen.

as far as i can tell, the only differences here are that there are less people who are more familiar with each other, to the point that it has often become a back-patting parade. there are moments, like the car thread, that keep me interested and keep me here. i don't, however, seem to share the regulars' opinions that you're offering anything above (or even equal to) sr.

it's the good old boy aspect of the forum that i dislike, mainly because it appears to stymie objectivity. regulars are less apt to disagree with regulars. i don't mind saying what i think about whatever to whomever, and i think that reason, along with the fact that i'm not attracted by the idea of the club, will keep me a 'regular outsider' here.

so what makes this different from sr? i think the name itself is funny because there's little/no discussion about storage, and when there is it goes almost completely unchallenged (e.g. santilli's scsi fetish). if you want more people, you can get it, but then you'll break up the blessed s/n ratio and possibly blow all the value you have in it.

i can see how regulars would be less inclined to come here if the userbase was locked and a password was required for entry. just because you're not doing this doesn't mean you're a public service. next to nobody shows up, and when they do, it's from sr. i don't like forking quality personalities across 2 places, and there are lots of quality posters here.

why are we here, and do you ACTUALLY want more people?

most of the time when i'm here i see topics that i'd rather see posted on sr for the traffic and the fact that there's a non-zero chance that people will disagree with the topic.

 

[CougTek]

The regulars often disagreed in past threads. Now everyone knows each others' bugs, so debating them again and again seems futile. Arguing Tannin that ECS can make good boards is almost like trying to convince Mercutio that nVidia can make good cards or telling The Giver that U.S. foreign policy is piss poor.

At SR, we would see those debates constantly, but most of the time with people less likely to be able to hold their point. Glorified noobs who take themselves seriously, just like our P... nah, I won't say it.

 

[CougTek]

Hey, and Dell sucks.

 

[honold]

i didn't mean to imply that debate is the entire point of a forum - there's always lurking for info (which doesn't happen here for non-regulars because i doubt there ARE any lurkers - what a waste of info), fraternization, etc.

i see this as a few members of a football team leaving the team to start their own, never getting enough teammates, and never competing. what's the point?

 

[Mercutio]

One thing to point to - I made my opinion on the matter clear - is that S/N ratio is extremely high here. I read literally everything that gets posted here. It's interesting or funny or revealing or... something.

Other forum sites I've been to seem to have an overabundance of people who just shouldn't be contributing. Trying to have a discussion in forums like that is like trying to have a conversation with a bunch of sugar-happy yet bellicose third graders.

The people who are here are friends. We are a community, and this feels like home.

 

[honold]

why is it named storageforum then?

 

[blakerwry]

why is it named storageforum then?

Storageforum started as a place for storage related talk, but recently storage has become less and less our topic of conversation. We've always been somewhat diverse however. Changing our name just because of a growth in topic wouuldn't make sense.

To the same point I could ask why are you still named Honold and haven't yet changed your name to Dell Rules!

 

[blakerwry]

-or better yet, What's the point

 

[Prof.Wizard]

Glorified noobs who take themselves seriously, just like our P... nah, I won't say it.

P5-133XL?
Piyono?!
Platform?!?
Pradeep?!?!
...
Wait!

Is it me?! Damn...

NO WORRIES COUGTEK, I WON'T DANCE WITH YOU THIS TIME AROUND!
Honold is right and he has the right approach to almost every thread I've seen so far. You may think that he (and I) are plain stubborn, but I don't think there's anything wrong to support your point of view to-the-death especially in controversial or subjective matters: I'll cite the analog vs. digital thread, Seagate, Dell, the recent mobile phones one... hell, type my name or honold's to SF's search and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Of course I don't imply that I'm in the same level as far as honold's IT knowledge goes, but I'm no newbie either, just a medical student who is fond of anything electronic. I may not sell computers but that doesn't make me insensible to appreciate the IT world, awright blokes?
LOL, on the other hand one might say that you (at least those of you who sell PC components) are the "amateurs", because you might try to sell something which is not better but has a bigger profit...
Probably you are more biased than me... :roll:

Last, SF's creation and evolution was a pleasant "accident". It was Eugene's and Davin's fault who rushed to close SR after the database loss that forced us find a different nest. I've always said, if there is a call, I'm willing to go back to SR full-time, but only if I could drag with me the old SR Fixtures (heh, remember this term?) back there.

 

[honold]

Storageforum started as a place for storage related talk

ok, who started it then, and why did they/do they find sr insufficient?

Changing our name just because of a growth in topic wouuldn't make sense.

i wasn't implying this - i came here without knowing the history of the site.

To the same point I could ask why are you still named Honold and haven't yet changed your name to Dell Rules!

i wasn't asking for a name change, i was honestly asking why you were named as such

 

[Mercutio]

Continuity of our community.

We took the name anticipating that SR would close, soon. Davin and Eugene had in short order, announced that it would close and lost the database that contained 3+ years of discussion. The SR forums were home to deep friendships and interesting discussions. We didn't want to lose that, so we took steps to step in when SR collapsed.
By the time it became apparent that it wouldn't close, this site had already grown to the point where it could exist on its own.

Storage is the thing that drew many of us together, but it isn't the thing that keeps us together.

 

[honold]

how is it you feel you would be inhibited in communication or fraternization if you were to post on sr instead?

 

[Mercutio]

SR is not under our control. There have been steps taken to ensure data integrity of our database. We are not beholden to commerce as SR is.

From a social aspect, I think that the vast amount of crap that gets posted to SR would continue tdrown out the community, as it has done already.

 

[honold]

neither sr nor sf are under my control, yet i'm able to use both of them just fine. i'm certain that they're not going to lose another db. the forums have nothing to do with commerce.

has anybody that wasn't here from the onset been convinced to change allegiance?

 

[fool]

Unifying the codes

Up until recently ( when the team started to kick a**) one of the most common topics of conversation amongst English rugby union fans was "why can't we unify the codes" (basically we just wanted Jason Robinson playing union).

The first couple of times I saw this thread I took the opinion that SR & SF were two different beasts, evolved to suit different niches.

Now I'm not so sure.
I found this place through SR, (IIRC from a post of tannis responding to the question of where the hell had he been all this time.)
Its true that SF has a high signal to noise ratio, its true that there are a lot of intelligent, articulate and knowledgeable people who post, almost exclusively in many cases, here.
But, well allow me to digress, my maternal grandparents are hugely interesting people, I'm talking about folks who've had a full and active life, have been involved, one way or another, in many of the most significant events of the twentieth century, but you listen to them talking to each other and all you hear is "would you like a cup of tea?" or "what do you think the answer to four down is".
Why? Because they’ve told each other everything they have to say numerous times and what’s left, (please don't, for one moment, imagine I wish to disparage my grandparents, after all, I can think of no finer way to play out the last few years of ones life) is a comfortable companionship.

But, (with the possible exception of flagreen/ T’Giver, whose age always seems to become a part of the conversation), are you not all still young and vital? Is it really the consensus that the high levels of noise at SR cannot be overcome?

When I think of whose opinions I would actually value with regard to a particular topic, most of the names that spring to mid are names I only see here.

Who then is going to end this state of permanent September that infects SR? I’d do it if I knew enough about anything computer related, but, alas, all I really know is that I’m better off lurking until someone who really knows what there talking about comes along.

I can’t help fearing that SF is going to get stale, an eddy of stagnant water left behind by the river itself.

I don’t want that to happen, and I don’t think anyone else here does.

But I asked myself this question

Who has joined SF, and stuck around for more than a couple of posts, since I did,

And when I couldn’t think of anyone, it worried me.

Oh, and Mercutio,
“From a social aspect, I think that the vast amount of crap that gets posted to SR would continue to drown out the community, as it has done already”

I can’t help but feel that you underestimate not only yourself, but the ensemble here assembled. You, Coug, Handie, Blake, Tannin(and his sock drawer), Howell and the rest have enough oomph in your posts, enough force, to define the character of more or less any of the fora on any site that I’ve ever seen.

I guess what this boil down to is two things.

1. If we really want more people here, post on SR more and reference this place every time.

or

2. If what’s paramount is the preservation of the S/N ratio, then quit looking for more traffic. But if SF really wants more traffic maybe the fixtures could do worse than try and illuminate the narrow, dark, painful worlds of all those septemberites who’ve just stumbled upon SR.

 

[honold]

Re: Unifying the codes

1. If we really want more people here, post on SR more and reference this place every time.

i think that's totally unethical given the relatively anti-sr nature of most regulars. if i started a fast food joint because i didn't like mcdonald's, i wouldn't go back there to advertise.

 

[Handruin]

This thread has a wide variety of good points and I'm happy to see it discussed. The inception of the name "storageforum" was the collaborate effort of many, and my part was to register the name. This site began out of my own frustration in trying to follow the e-mail chains that started once Clocker brought me on board. After the SR forums caved-in and the news was emulating that SR was closer her doors, there were a significant number of folks communicating via e-mail.

Two months prior to all of this, I asked a friend of mine to help me out with some hosting. I purchased the name handruin.com with no intent of using it for anything other than learning about hosting and creating a basic website.

Once I learned of the bad news over at SR, I was included in the chain of e-mails created to keep that community alive. I found them hard to follow and became frustrated so I setup a phpbb 1.0 forum on handruin.com. I named it “post storage review” and invited clocker to test it out. Essentially, this thread is the beginning of what we are today.

It seems like what we are, is a group of folks with such a high diversity of information that we tend to enjoy each others company and discuss more about theoretical things then trying to help with the basic computer related items.

For many of us, we already have a good grasp on the IT world and personal computing that we don't always have to ask the "newbie" questions because we've done it so many times now. Because of this it seems like we run out of topics were we can help each other learn the basics of personal computing.

What we lack are more of the folks who could benefit from our collective experience and at the same time we praise ourselves on the high S/N ration. I know that sometimes a sacrifice will have to be made in order to gain more of the folks who can benefit from our experience.

Throughout the years of SR, I learned much more than storage, and computers over the years. I've improved my writing ability and communication. (Although, compared to many here, I still need plenty of work) I've also learned a lot about respecting people on the net and truly trying to understand others point of view when communicating sensitive topics.

The point I'm trying to make is that although SR may have a lower s/n value, I believe it can be improved in the same way all of the old SR fixtures helped me to improve. I will admit that without the help of Clocker, I was close to being unrecognized over at SR. I never spoke up on any issues and I tend to avoid conflict, it’s just who I am.

At this point I've digressed on the initial matter, but at the same time I'm leading into a summary of this thread. I feel as though honold has a great point, and at the same time, the remaining responses to his post also have an equally valid and strong point.

Many of us are here because we chose to be, and continue to return because there is enough content and interest to make it worth the time. Some people, (honold being one to initially speak up on the matter) questions why we put effort into this site instead of continuing at SR. I sense he wants to know if "we" want to ever become something, be it a site like SR, or something totally different. In either case, a site with a greater focus on a future? Why do we continue to put all this effort and collective expertise into an unknown and highly under-utilized site, where the effort and strength would/could have a greater impact at a place like SR? Essentially, are we being greedy by not sharing the wealth? (Was that a fair assessment?)

In terms of gaining readership, I'll agree that we should not try to pull any members from SR or advertise in their forums, that is bad taste. We have discussed this in the past and up until a certain point we did inform many of the regular members about SF in hopes we could continue a relationship in the event SR closed the doors. However, I don't feel it is bad to reference this site when there is a valid reason to provide information on a subject. It's a gray area that is undefined, but I think it has been handled well.

So it seems like three options are on the table after reading fool's post.
Lead SF as is until it potentially goes stale.
Lead SF in a new direction and work at gaining new readership.
Return to SR and make that world a better place by helping others.

 

[Mercutio]

neither sr nor sf are under my control, yet i'm able to use both of them just fine. i'm certain that they're not going to lose another db. the forums have nothing to do with commerce.

has anybody that wasn't here from the onset been convinced to change allegiance?

Ah, but it does. SR depends on the kindness of advertisers to exist. When SR doesn't get its ads, it ceases to be. That was the case in the winter of '02 and in large large the impetus for creating this site.

I am not "anti" SR. But I don't feel compelled, upon visiting, to post anything to its forums. Therefore I do not.

If you don't like the topics of conversation, if you don't wish to contribute, if you think Tannin's mom dresses him funny, then by all means, don't visit.

fool, my self-esteem is in a rather permanent shambles, but in this case, it isn't that I believe myself or others unable to make a bent in the noise of SR's forums, so much the simple fact that I have another windmill to joust. I do not need another.

 

[CougTek]

Re: Unifying the codes

I can’t help but feel that you underestimate not only yourself, but the ensemble here assembled. You, Coug, Handie, Blake, Tannin(and his sock drawer), Howell and the rest have enough oomph in your posts, enough force, to define the character of more or less any of the fora on any site that I’ve ever seen.

Merc has more than a thousand post at SR, I have around 850, Tannin has about 30 more than me (plus probably between 400 and 500 by Tea) and Blakerwry is also well beyond 1000. Howell/Cliptin, I don't remember, so he must have only a few hundreds, just like Handruin. I consider this a valuable collective effort. But still, we haven't made much of a difference on the overall picture, haven't we?

To rise SR's state up to SF's level, we would need to be omnipresent there. I personally don't have the time and will to do this, neither do most of the others your named (and there are several others who really help to make this place special). Some of us more or less deserted SR due to the MDBF (think P5-133XL, who did a tremendous job back then in the tech-support forum of SR).

 

[The JoJo]

Storage is the thing that drew many of us together, but it isn't the thing that keeps us together.

This is for me an important point. That's why I'm here.

When you have given everything you've got, it all get's blown up a few times, then atleast I tend to want to start again on a more stable base.

SR doesn't seem like that stable base to me. Sorry.

Compared with wading through a lot of forums, with a lot of noise etc..
coming here feels like coming home. Peace, quality, good people.

Över änd aut.

 

[timwhit]

I post on SR every once in awhile. But, I just don't think anyone even reads my posts over there. There is just too much crap posted in the SR forums. Even though I don't post all that often on SF, I still make enough time to read everything that is posted. And, if I feel like contributing then I will. Plus, I feel like people will read my posts and even respond sometimes.

I just don't have time to read 2 forums. So my time goes into this one. Additionally, I like that this forum doesn't have as many members as SR. I would never be able to read even half of what is posted there. The smaller amount of members here is what is so compelling; along with the fact that I have been reading and conversing with many of the members from SF since the end of 1999.

 

[Prof.Wizard]

I post on SR every once in awhile. But, I just don't think anyone even reads my posts over there.

You can't know that.
Moreover, I'm telling you that I deliberately read all posts by familiar names.

There is just too much crap posted in the SR forums. Even though I don't post all that often on SF, I still make enough time to read everything that is posted. And, if I feel like contributing then I will. Plus, I feel like people will read my posts and even respond sometimes.

Have you ever considered that the again-and-again-discussed S/N ratio will become better if all these posts we had here were there? Well, all but CougTek's which go to the denominator... :roll:

I just don't have time to read 2 forums. So my time goes into this one. Additionally, I like that this forum doesn't have as many members as SR.
I would never be able to read even half of what is posted there. The smaller amount of members here is what is so compelling; along with the fact that I have been reading and conversing with many of the members from SF since the end of 1999.

This is one reason I like it here too. No time to browse enormous forums. IMO, SR is also problematic by the current configuration of the sections. There is need for more of them.

 

[honold]

how many people would return if they separated storage and non-storage? personally, i find most of the crap posts to be storage-related.

blah blah raid0 blah blah
blah blah what drive do i pick blah blah
blah blah my atto scores suck blah blah

 

[honold]

and handruin, you (very elegantly) nailed my point

 

[CougTek]

Have you ever considered that the again-and-again-discussed S/N ratio will become better if all these posts we had here were there? Well, all but CougTek's which go to the denominator...

Call 1-800-328-7448

 

[Prof.Wizard]

What did you say, CougTek?
All that appeared was...

 

[Will Rickards WT]

In the earlier similar thread, I said something along the lines of : you post where you will get good answers. That is why I post to storageforum. That is why I read storageforum.

I do visit SR. I've learned to skim the topic list and pick only the interesting ones. This is a skill I actually had to develop. I used to read every post from everybody. This was very time consuming.

SR has always (in the time that I've been there) had a mostly hands off approach to the forums. Eugene posts more now then he used to. Compare this to CDRLabs. The guy who runs that website is a frequent poster. Maybe some will disagree with me but I believe that is directly related to the signal to noise ratio on SR. It is lack of effective guidance and moderation. Is this situation improving lately, sure.

Eugene (and Davin) run SR. It is up to them to handle any an all efforts to improve the site and the forums. However, the old timers created the community that you miss and are asking us to help restore. When the database was lost and SR was closing, it emphasized how fragile this relationship was between the SR old timers and the SR management. The community was disconnected from the management. This disconnect and fragile relationship causes problems. The best sites involve their community in their website. The SR old timers wished to maintain the community and SF was born. If you ask us to devote our time to SR, you ask us to embrace the same fragile relationship. I believe it is still up to Eugene (and Davin) to improve the site and the forums. They would make the call to us if they so desired.

I won't even begin to go into all the other things I think SR needs. I believe Eugene and Davin have a fundamental flaw. They don't know when to ask for help.

I still visit SR. I hope it becomes a premier storage site.

Interesting article on web communites

 

[Will Rickards WT]

I think I've adequately indicated why I am here.
Now to the question of do I (we) actually want more people/traffic?
Absolutely!

I believe in a 'build it and they will come' approach. Sure you need some marketing but what you need first is a really valuable resource. Articles will be one way. For example the sysprep article. Even just meta content with links to other articles/downloads/resources like the SP4 slipstream instructions. Pertinent and frequent news updates are another (why I visit Ars Technica). Reviews are another (why I visit storagereview, anandtech, cdrlabs, xbitlabs).

Regardless of what we provide, it will require genuine effort on the part of individuals whose time is valuable. My time is mostly taken by my 10 month old son and helping to keep the lighten the load on my wife who stays home with him. Not that he isn't the greastest kid in the world. He certainly is! But taking care of him takes effort and time. And this is the best use of my valuable time. So because of my time demands an article or two may be all I'll be able to contribute. Most people have such demands on their time, but a little genuine effort can go a long way. Sometimes all you have to do is get it started and others can keep it going.

 

[Howell]

i didn't mean to imply that debate is the entire point of a forum - there's always lurking for info (which doesn't happen here for non-regulars because i doubt there ARE any lurkers - what a waste of info), fraternization, etc.

honold, what should be the point of the forum? If there is good info here, why IYO are there no lurkers?

 

[honold]

In the earlier similar thread, I said something along the lines of : you post where you will get good answers. That is why I post to storageforum. That is why I read storageforum.

you could get the same good answers if everyone was frequenting sr, and perhaps if they were to do something like improve the faq and fork storage/non-storage and serious/non-serious ot forums.

SR has always (in the time that I've been there) had a mostly hands off approach to the forums. Eugene posts more now then he used to. Compare this to CDRLabs. The guy who runs that website is a frequent poster. Maybe some will disagree with me but I believe that is directly related to the signal to noise ratio on SR. It is lack of effective guidance and moderation. Is this situation improving lately, sure.

my take on eugene is that he wants to influence the natural flow of things as little as possible; acting as more of a creator/enabler than a parent.

If you ask us to devote our time to SR, you ask us to embrace the same fragile relationship.

i have next to no relationship with eugene/davin, and it does not appear to affect me.

I believe it is still up to Eugene (and Davin) to improve the site and the forums. They would make the call to us if they so desired.

I won't even begin to go into all the other things I think SR needs. I believe Eugene and Davin have a fundamental flaw. They don't know when to ask for help.[/quote]
this goes out to everyone: what do you want them to ask for, and what would need to change in order for you to truly return (possibly as far as abandonment of this site).

I still visit SR. I hope it becomes a premier storage site.

in terms of industry respect i think they're 6 feet high and rising. they're on the side of retail boxes. they are, by all rights, THE (not A) premier storage site. they just need more money and better forums.

we could fix the 'better forums' part if we were so inclined.

 

[Prof.Wizard]

you could get the same good answers if everyone was frequenting sr, and perhaps if they were to do something like improve the faq and fork storage/non-storage and serious/non-serious ot forums.

You ARE strange. I thought you were against too-much forking. Did I influence on you this or are you plain schizophrenic?
OK, now let me check what you posted on SR... :wink:

in terms of industry respect i think they're 6 feet high and rising. they're on the side of retail boxes. they are, by all rights, THE (not A) premier storage site. they just need more money and better forums.

we could fix the 'better forums' part if we were so inclined.

Man I'm with you. I was hoping for a guy like you to come.

 

[honold]

i am against too much forking

go read my next response to your thread on sr

 

[Prof.Wizard]

Hahah, and you mine!

 

[Will Rickards WT]

Lost my original reply when I accidentally closed firebird.

you could get the same good answers if everyone was frequenting sr, and perhaps if they were to do something like improve the faq and fork storage/non-storage and serious/non-serious ot forums.

Absolutely - but that is a big 'if' -> everyone was frequenting SR.
I'm all for just one site instead of two separate ones to check.

my take on eugene is that he wants to influence the natural flow of things as little as possible; acting as more of a creator/enabler than a parent.

Enabler has a negative connotation. I think it is apt in this situation. Read the article I linked up. Communities need moderation and feedback. A group is its own worst enemy.

I'm not sure Eugene knows how to run a community driven site or even if they want that.

i have next to no relationship with eugene/davin, and it does not appear to affect me.

That doesn't mean it doesn't affect others. Some people need more feedback and interaction then others. I personally have fears about whether SR will be around. I have no idea what Eugene does and if SR is his full time job. And those concerns may have been addressed in a post at SR that I may not have read. But if Eugene was involved in the community more and was keeping us up to date on the happenings with reviews and articles and what he was working on.... no one would have these concerns.

Combine concerns and fear with a lack of the sense of ownership. Add a blow to the community. You then have SF. Great reviews are not enough to maintain the community.

what do you want them to ask for, and what would need to change in order for you to truly return (possibly as far as abandonment of this site).

I need my questions answered. Thus the big if would have to happen. A group decision to post to SR like SF.

I don't think it is unreasonable to wonder, if someone who runs a community saw some of his best contributors leaving.... wouldn't they try their best to keep them? Wouldn't an e-mail conversation to allay their fears and address their concerns be in order.

Maybe this has already happened? I don't know because I still visit SR.

In terms of industry respect i think they're 6 feet high and rising. they're on the side of retail boxes. they are, by all rights, THE (not A) premier storage site.

Maybe. But the side of a retail box just means marketing believes they can leverage the sites reputation for their benefit. Their reviews are great. But they are not timely. They have long delays between any content updates. Other sites are reviewing storage and getting better at it.

they just need more money and better forums.

They just need to utilize their community. They could have articles on RAID, optical reviews etc, without needing another penny.


Disclaimer:
I always find stuff wrong with anything. I do not run a site like storagereview, so maybe I have no idea what it takes to run a site like that. I'm mostly a lurker and sometimes a poster. So I don't consider myself one of the old timers. I just like the discussions and like to be a storage freak.

 

[Prof.Wizard]

I have reasons to believe Eugene won't listen...
It is obvious by his responses.

 

[honold]

nobody's answering the big questions :/

 

[Handruin]

Which?

Why are we all here, or do we actually want more people?

The first was answered, the second is a yes IMHO.

 

[honold]

what do you want them to ask for, and what would need to change in order for you to truly return (possibly as far as abandonment of this site)?

 

[Mercutio]

Eugene and Davin do not have anything to offer that would get me to abandon this site. The changes at SR IMO need to be cultural. They can't be requested or dictated or anything else. Every time I visit and see a couple of AOL-using 16-year olds asking "RAID0 or solid-state for my 733t g4/|\!|\|G r!g", I'm one step closer to never going back.

I don't participate in SR's forums much any more for the same reason I don't participate in a lot of other forums - I don't feel like I'm talking to adults who are interested in what I have to say.

 

[Pradeep]

I just looked at SR today after a few weeks absence. The quality of the posts has deteriorated markedly. If that is what popularity brings, then let's stay away from it. Don't get me wrong, I hope SR continues to exist, I sent them a donation for that purpose.

But at least at SF I know I won't be seeing too many "I'm elite, look at my Raptor 10 disk RAID 0 HDTach scores. I'm a freak!" posts.

BTW honold I heard an experience of a guy with a 99 Jetta that his engine burned a quart of oil every 1000 miles or somesuch, and that this was considered normal by VW. Do you have the same problem?