Where is the next CPU?

[Fushigi]

64 bit Windows is something that does not make me very happy. Until just a couple months ago, the picture viewer I preferred to use wouldn't run on 64-bit. It still doesn't, but the new version of Picasa is nice enough I don't mind.

You should, then, be unhappy with the software developers haven't embraced 64 bit Windows. That they haven't done the work to make their apps run on x64 doesn't have much of anything to do with Windows itself.

And I'm not being an apologist for MS. I've run into an app or two that don't work on x64, including Palm Desktop's USB HotSync and an app from IBM I use at work. I realize that the fault lies with Palm & IBM, though, and not with MS.

 

[Mercutio]

Yes and no. App compatibility with 64 bit Windows or with Vista are both awful. I'm amazed at the number of VB/Delphi-type apps that don't work. Sure, the programmer can probably fix it, but in a lot of cases we're talking about one-off apps made just for one company, but also apps that were largely made with Microsoft tools.

I'll bet there will still be a substantial installed base of business systems on XP 32 bit in 2012.

 

[LunarMist]

I use BB for viewing images and many other tasks, though not for converting RAW files. I would not expect an app from 14 years ago to work today. It's just not realistic. The main problem I've had with 64-bit OS is the printer drivers and a few hardware drivers.

 

[LunarMist]

Yes and no. App compatibility with 64 bit Windows or with Vista are both awful. I'm amazed at the number of VB/Delphi-type apps that don't work. Sure, the programmer can probably fix it, but in a lot of cases we're talking about one-off apps made just for one company, but also apps that were largely made with Microsoft tools.

I'll bet there will still be a substantial installed base of business systems on XP 32 bit in 2012.

Isn't that why MS was trying to achieve XP compatibility mode in Win7, or does that not help?

 

[Mercutio]

I would not expect an app from 14 years ago to work today. It's just not realistic.

It's a Win32 app. That API has been around since 1992 in some form or other. Win32 is NOT legacy code.

Isn't that why MS was trying to achieve XP compatibility mode in Win7, or does that not help?

Compatibility mode is just a premade Virtual machine that needs all its software licensed separately from Win7. An extra copy of Office, security software and who-knows-what for desktop management mean it's a very expensive solution.

 

[MaxBurn]

Compatibility mode is just a premade Virtual machine that needs all its software licensed separately from Win7. An extra copy of Office, security software and who-knows-what for desktop management mean it's a very expensive solution.

Really?? Thats crossing a huge grey line there, technically it's the same OS (subset thereof) on the same computer. I can see why but there is going to be a mass of confusion on this, hopefully they let up on this somehow.

 

[mubs]

I use BB for viewing images and many other tasks, though not for converting RAW files.

What's BB, LM? A Google search was pointless.

 

[Adcadet]

How does the Antec P183 compare to the original 180?

 

[ddrueding]

How does the Antec P183 compare to the original 180?

Silent PC Review did a great write-up on it. Mainly better ventilation and support for their new, non-ATX power supplies. The PSU is now large enough to have a 120mm fan blowing straight through.

My last three cases have been P180s (with a twelve hundred stuffed in there somewhere). I am really happy with them, though my current rig is pushing the boundaries of what can be quiet in that case.

 

[Mercutio]

I hate the P18x series. The cabling in the lower right corner of the motherboard is far too much of a clusterfuck.

 

[ddrueding]

I hate the P18x series. The cabling in the lower right corner of the motherboard is far too much of a clusterfuck.

All this just tucks under the motherboard tray? Which part don't you like?

 

[Pradeep]

After reading the more recent reviews of 64 bit XP Pro, it would be worth about 10 bucks to try it, and, I suspect most of my programs and hardware might not have decent drivers. Don't know.

Should probably just save the money, wait and hope Windows 7 is somewhere as good as the beta was...

Greg, be aware that early xeons don't support 64 bit code. Or is this for your htpc?

 

[Mercutio]

All this just tucks under the motherboard tray? Which part don't you like?

On any modern board, you get all your SATA, your front panel and your USB/1394 headers in that corner. Fine. The P18x also has that particular point as the outlet for ALL power cabling, and that's what isn't cool.

 

[ddrueding]

On any modern board, you get all your SATA, your front panel and your USB/1394 headers in that corner. Fine. The P18x also has that particular point as the outlet for ALL power cabling, and that's what isn't cool.

Ah. I route those bits behind the motherboard to wherever they go, then they pop out. Same with that corner, the SATA drops behind the motherboard immediately on it's way to the lower chamber (if you use a right-angle cable, you see nothing) and the power/reset/etc slack gets sucked up under the board itself before transiting the bottom of the top chamber to the front panel. We'll see what I can manage on the one I'm building today.

Of course, I now remember the biggest headache about the P18x; that the ATX and specifically the 12v cable sometimes aren't long enough. A very simple problem to solve if you remember at the time of ordering and get the $7 extension kit, but if you forget...another couple days without We'll see if Antec took care of this with their new power supplies.

 

[Mercutio]

I tried to route some of the power cabling under my motherboard. I found that it didn't help unless I was willing to not screw down the lower edge of the board. There's just too much shit in that corner. It all comes out of one hole and there's only so many places you can run a cable with the same point of origin.

I've had maybe four complete systems in my gaming rig at this point but next time I build one, it's going in a case with some better cable management, or at least fewer obstructions to letting me do things the way I want.

 

[mubs]

I spent some time on the weekend looking for a good case that supports E-ATX, can take 6 HDDs, has deccent cooling and a good layout. Such a beast either does not exist or costs a small fortune. The ones I liked best were some of the Lian-Li ones, but they are frighteningly expensive.

 

[ddrueding]

I've found the best way to handle larger numbers of drives is to get any case you like and one of these. Or get SSDs and electrical-tape them together.

 

[Mercutio]

Large numbers of drives are best put in 3U/4U rackmount cases.

 

[ddrueding]

I have one of these, and I like it.

 

[Mercutio]

That's a $900 case.
For one PC.

And also too many eggs for one basket, as far as the number of drive bays in that single chassis.

 

[ddrueding]

The $900 includes a redundant, high-powered PSU and all the hot-swap bays.

Besides, after you add in the 16 2TB drives ($4k), 16-port RAID card ($1k), and the rest ($1k), $900 doesn't seem so bad (14%).

It is only "too many eggs" if you don't have another basket. Just get two of them

 

[Santilli]

Greg, be aware that early xeons don't support 64 bit code. Or is this for your htpc?

It's for my HTPC. Now I just have to figure out the best deal for memory for this motherboard:
GA-K8N Pro- SLI F7
AMD Athlon 64 Processor 3200+
2 gigs ram

It's got 2 gigs of ram in it now. Wonder what's compatible with it?
The Patriot stuff that's in it is 75 bucks for 2 gigs, kind of expensive in today's market.

Also, as Mercutio has pointed out, what game do I play that actually uses two gigs of ram?

All logic aside, it would be fun to play with a copy, as long as it was cheap. With the removeable drive setup, I can plug a clean storage drive in, and disconnect the Velociraptor.

Guess I should check and see if David has another used drive laying around...

Velociraptors are sort of addictive...

 

[Santilli]

By the way, I agree with David on the smaller SATA box from Supermicro, and, it's a steal, at that price. I also replaced the fan with a Stealth, and, it works fine, though if the fan dies, the alarm goes off, and, it's very high pitched, and annoying.

Likewise if one of the drives dies, the alarm is loud and annoying.

Still, it's a great solution I hope that setup doesn't require having to set the drive up like the SCSI box does. It is a pain to delete the drive in the raid bios, and, then have to install and new one, and initialize, format, etc. "Hot swap" is not really what happens here.

 

[ddrueding]

Intel Core i7 Extreme Edition 965 Nehalem 3.2GHz LGA 1366 130W Quad-Core Processor Model BX80601965 - Retail

CORSAIR XMS3 12GB (6 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Desktop Memory Model HX3X12G1600C9 G - Retail

GIGABYTE GA-EX58-EXTREME LGA 1366 Intel X58 ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail

Noctua NH-U12P SE1366 120mm SSO CPU Cooler - Retail

Antec P183 Black Aluminum / Steel / Plastic ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - Retail

Antec CP-850 850W Continuous Power CPX SLI Certified CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS Certified Modular Active PFC Power Supply - Retail

...with a pair of Vertex 120GBs as RAID-0, a temp GeForce 8500 and LG optical to finish it off for testing.

In case anyone was curious, Windows 7 RC installation with the i7 clocked at a measly 3.8Ghz (stock voltage) took 9:08 from selecting the disk, through both reboots, through checking performance, until it prompted for a username.

 

[ddrueding]

This combo deal is pretty tempting...

On its way. We'll see how good a VMWare server it makes with 12GB of RAM. Going to 24GB is too pricey at the moment.

 

[ddrueding]

I tried to route some of the power cabling under my motherboard. I found that it didn't help unless I was willing to not screw down the lower edge of the board. There's just too much shit in that corner. It all comes out of one hole and there's only so many places you can run a cable with the same point of origin.

I don't use the holes they provide at all. I think I'd describe building in a P-18x as difficult, but it makes real cleanliness possible. Most cases can't look like this.

 

[Mercutio]

That's not exactly a standard P180 then, is it?

 

[ddrueding]

That's not exactly a standard P180 then, is it?

I didn't drill any holes, just ran everything along the back of the motherboard. The P-182 had some gaps in the motherboard tray and tie-down points on the back for this purpose. The P-183 is better yet. That system does have a pair of drives in one of these (awesome, BTW) stuck in the 3.5" external bay, which is also right in that corner. When I move over my video cards and sound card it will get a little messier, I'll take another image then.

 

[Mercutio]

The P180s that I have (I have two) have a solid metal shelf between the chamber where the power supply chamber meets the motherboard chamber. There's a ~1.5" hole which can optionally be made smaller with a sliding piece of plastic, but cannot be made larger without some quality time with a dremel.

I know I have a first-generation P180. I'm not sure what my other one is.

 

[ddrueding]

Merc,

I know the whole you speak of. It is not the hole you're looking for. Sorry, couldn't help it.

I'll try to take some pictures of the back side today. If you remove the back side panel, and look at the bottom of the motherboard tray right in front of the power supply, you should see a gap where cables can be runup from the lower chamber directly to behind the tray. Now if you look at the tray near the ATX connector there is another gap, and another at the top near the 12V connector. Some things can't get pretty (GPU power connectors, Front Panel Audio) but the rest can get pretty tidy.

The back looks like a mess, and it can be tricky to get the back panel back on, but it is invisible anyway.

 

[Mercutio]

Doesn't matter at this point. My game PC has just two drives in it at this point, both X-25Ms, and since I just did a wholesale hardware change it'll probably be a year before I revisit that machine.

At which point, it will be replaced with a case I like better.

 

[udaman]

Tom's Hard says the 920 is still the way to go, value over even the AMD alternative:

i975 reviewed
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/core-i7-975,2318-11.html

Will have to wait until end of '09 for the 1st of new 32nm Intels, more likely 1Q10 for most.

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20090629PD207.html

Intel has brought forward the mass-production schedule of its new 32nm processor codenamed Clarkdale to the fourth quarter of 2009 from the originally planned first quarter of 2010, according to sources from motherboard makers.

The company's 32nm Clarkdale CPUs will account for 10% of Intel's total OEM desktop CPU shipments in the fourth quarter, while 45nm Core i7 processors will account for 1%, Lynnfield-based processor 2%, Core 2 Quad processors 9%, Core 2 Duo E8000/E7000 series processors 35%, Pentium E5000/E6000 series 31%, Celeron E3000 and Atom series together 8%, and 65nm-based Pentium E2000 and Celeron 400 together 4%.

In the first quarter of 2010, the proportion of Clarkdale-based CPUs will rise to 20%, while 45nm-based processors will account for 78%, and 65nm-based Celeron 400 series will drop to only 2%, the sources noted.
Intel declined the opportunity to respond to this report saying it cannot comment on unannounced products.

http://crshare.com/2009/06/details-...duct-placement-emerge-gulftown-named-core-i9/

gulftown, 6 cores???

i3, i5, i7, i9...still too confusing!

1st Arrandale (laptop 32nm) supposedly only i3.

 

[ddrueding]

http://crshare.com/2009/06/details-...duct-placement-emerge-gulftown-named-core-i9/

gulftown, 6 cores???

i3, i5, i7, i9...still too confusing!

1st Arrandale (laptop 32nm) supposedly only i3.

Good info, and very confusing.

 

[Mercutio]

Has Intel ever made any effort to simplify its product offerings?
I knew i5s were coming and with them hopefully some cheaper motherboards.

No one but Intel has a license to make LGA1366 motherboards. I suspect they're going to be expensive for some time to come. :\

 

[Santilli]

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/core-i7-975,2318-11.html

After spending two days going through their notes, and tests:
http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/processors,6.html

"Intel’s Core i7 processor, formerly referred to as Bloomfield, has been architecturally dissected one bit at a time for the past two years. Talk about a rollercoaster of anticipation for gaming enthusiasts. Gone is the super-quick L2 cache that helped propel Core 2 processors so far ahead of AMD’s Phenom offerings in a myriad of games. In its place is a much smaller L2, a large L3, a HyperTransport-like processor-to-processor interconnect, an integrated memory controller, and the reemergence of Hyper-Threading. If we didn’t know any better, we’d suggest that Intel is going after a different market entirely."
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/core-i7-gaming,2061-13.html
"Also, when the dust clears, AMD’s Phenom X4 9950 really doesn’t fare too poorly versus our other Radeon-based gaming platforms, especially when you consider the price difference. No, 2560x1600 is probably not going to be a viable gaming resolution for you in most cases, but at 1920x1200, the more mainstream system build handles business so long as you have two or more GPUs installed."

 

[Santilli]

David:
What about a dual Xeon rig?



http://www.tomshardware.com/gallery/RAM-Core2-scaling,0201--6464----jpg-.html

 

[Mercutio]

Why?

The only compelling argument I can see for Xeon in a home setup is to get exotic expansion ports and therefore cheap high-end SATA/SAS controllers.

 

[ddrueding]

The only reason I can see for going Xeon is to go multi-CPU; and that makes my i7EE look cheap.

 

[Santilli]

Well, David was looking for the fastest cpu possible. That might be a dual Xeon rig.

If Intel comes out with a reasonable priced SSD, why not raid 0 two or four of these drives? The reliability issue is now pretty much moot, and my pci bus fastest slot is PCI X 133, which should work up to a little over 1 gig/sec data transfer rate.
This controller, though I would need cables that allow two devices on one connection, or 4:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816118103&Tpk=LSI sata controller

I rarely max out the two Xeons I have now. With data transfer at that rate, I might get a bit closer...

http://www.supermicro.com/products/motherboard/Xeon/E7505/X5DA8.cfm

 

[ddrueding]

The problem with Xeon's is that unless you buy the most expensive chip ever (not counting Itanium), you aren't getting the fastest CPU. You are getting more slow CPUs. At this point there are still plenty of apps that bottleneck at a single core. I wouldn't give up having the fastest single core for 16 cores at the moment. Having 4 is nice, but having one really fast one is more important still.