Which Car?

[Will Rickards]

My Toyota Sienna lease is up in december.

So I'm trying to decide what to replace it with.
And whether to lease/buy new or buy used.
I'm leaning toward trying to lease as there just aren't any cars that I want to own, the gas mileage sucks on most of them.

I plan to buy the chevy volt or the zenn motors car when they come out. That is what I consider a car worth owning. But that is probably 3 years out still. I'm on the gm-volt.com waiting list at #14738.

My Mazda 6 lease is up in november of 2009.
The way I see it I have 3 options

Option 1: is to buy an @ $5-7K used car that gets good gas mileage like an old toyota corolla. The problem is they are overpriced currently as everybody is looking for them. This I would use for commuting to work and my wife would drive my mazda 6 as the family car.

Option 2: is to lease a new car. Could be a car for me to commute in (18mi each way) or the family car. Problem here is lack of cash for down payment. The lack of cash is because we are moving next month.

Option 3: is to buy a cheaper new car to use as a commuter with like 0% financing. I'm not sure what payments I can get this down to though.

My kids are 3 and 6 now, so we don't need a minivan.
But we do need a "family car" that is a grocery getter, kid transporter.
My wife doesn't like cars that are low to the ground, like my old 1999 saturn SL2. I like the look of the subaru outback but the gas mileage sucks.

So I'm looking for advice on which car and which option would you choose.
I'm very conflicted.

I'm also thinking longer term to when the mazda lease is up.
Although the volt won't be available then, probably not for another year after that. So what should I do then...?

 

[Stereodude]

I'd buy a used car. Probably a domestic though since you can get ones that are only a few years old for dirt cheap, until Honda and Toyota's which are 10+ years old and still expensive.

 

[MaxBurn]

Leases are going away and generally looking a lot less attractive, get in soon if you want to lease. Lenders are starting to wake up to the fact that the big 2.8 are about to cave in financially and don't want to be left holding a massive depreciation at lease end.

Generally if you forget about gas mileage a minute you can get some killer deals on new SUV's and trucks at the moment, everyone is way overstocked and they are not selling. Manufacturers are doing a crash stop on production, some dealers have an estimated 15month inventory already. Will saving five or ten grand and maybe more on purchase make up for gas?

What is your definition of gas mileage sucking? I have a feeling your are going to say my WRX at 26-30 highway real world is bad right? Everyone forgets Subaru's are all wheel drive, you can't compare to front wheel drive it's just not the same vehicle.

I don't think the used car market looks good at all at the moment. With the economy and gas prices at the moment people are hanging on to anything good and used prices are on par with new for desirable models. I think the price guides are having real problems keeping up with the quick recent trends and don't reflect CURRENT market value. Case in point I just sold a 2000 Land Rover Discovery (SUV) which the big three price guides (NADA, Edmunds, KBB) seem to agree is worth around $5-7k broad scope but it was a damn struggle after a month of selling to get out of it for barely over $4k. The reverse is true for the small efficient cars like the Corolla you mentioned, if you can find one actually for sale the price isn't going to seem fair, and when you are negotiating with the guy he will have just sold it to someone else.

Don't hold your breath on the volt. Personally I want to see it work out but it just might turn out to be another EV-1. Things are really going wrong when the announce the drag coefficient is on par or WORSE than many current cars and that's just the latest tidbit I read.

Some good reading here, I usually visit these daily:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/
http://www.freep.com/

 

[Clocker]

The Volt is turning out to be one of the most aerodynamic cars GM has ever made. It has to be. It has some of the nice aero features DD has been looking for for a while. Based on the teaser shots on the 'net you can surmise it won't look much like the concept (which would have been cool but very impractical for a higher volume vehicle or for a daily driver).

Don't waste your time looking at leases right now. You might get a decent deal when more 2009's come out, but 2008's will not get you a really good deal on a lease.

The lease on my truck is up in a month ($45K Avalanche LTZ). With my discount I was paying $263 per month. Same vehicle with my discount is now ~$1000 per month!! :-( I will probably extend my lease for a month or two and then be jumping into a '09 Malibu asap. The new Malibu is a fantastic car. Really well made with a very nice interior/exterior IMO. Huge leap from the last Malibu.

 

[MaxBurn]

Volt Cd I read about was .28-.29. Current Prius is .26, and the old EV1 was .19. Still years to change though.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/volt-birth-watch-77-that-cd-wont-play/

Guess my WRX sucks .35 Cd

 

[Mercutio]

My Element came used from Carmax with 6300 miles on it. I literally put it in a shopping cart and went "check out." It took about 10 minutes to do the paperwork when I got there. With a 100,000 mile warranty it was under $15k and the interest rate on my loan was only 3.5% or something.

That was a year and a half ago, too.

 

[Clocker]

Volt Cd I read about was .28-.29. Current Prius is .26, and the old EV1 was .19. Still years to change though.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/volt-birth-watch-77-that-cd-wont-play/

Guess my WRX sucks .35 Cd

And the Prius is BUTT UGLY.

Aerodynamically, it will definitely be no EV1 but then again the EV1 was a totally impractical 2-seat rolling battery pack.

 

[Howell]

Have you considered buying out the lease on the Sienna. Forget a truck chassis, in five years it will be even more difficult to get rid of a truck.

I've been looking at late 90s Honda Accords 'cause I only want to spend about $3k and I can't fit into smaller Hondas or any of the Nissans. I don't think they are over priced. I think they are market priced. Even so prices are all over the place. I could get a 2000LX with 165k miles for $5700.

With auto technology changing so fast these days I plan to drive cars into the ground 5 years at a time. I don't want to get caught for a long time with a severely depreciated vehicle because the market changed.

 

[Fushigi]

You're coming from a minivan & have two small children. So while playpens are no longer required cargo you still need room for two car seats/boosters & probably a good sized trunk. Assuming you had, say, an 06 or 07 2WD Sienna your EPA mileage rating was 19/26 under the old system and 17/24 under the new system.

I'll assume good safety scores are desirable. I'll also assume that since you had a Toyota, bland/non-aggressive styling is also acceptable. :compress:

Among new sedans to consider would be the Ford Taurus and Hyundai Sonata. The Ford gets 18/28 mileage with a 3.5L V6 and has tons of interior and trunk space. The Sonata gets 22/32 (4 cyl; best in class) or 19/29 (6 cyl) and is also quite spacious (EPA classified as a full size sedan). Both cars get 5* safety for front & rear passengers. The Ford can be had from the low $20K range; the 4 cyl Sonata can be had for under $18K.

Obviously the Hyundai give you the great warranty, which even includes headlights for the first year and other lights for the duration of the b-to-b warranty. The Ford has Sync, which while we can laugh since it is Microsoft technology, it has gotten basically nothing but rave reviews for voice integration & music/MP3 player control.

Both will give you way more value per dollar than Toyota and Honda (you can pay more for a Civic than the Sonata). Both are plenty reliable. They are also more than likely cheaper to insure.

Beware the Corolla; many people find the drivers seat to be too uncomfortable to live with for very long.


I'm also watching the Volt developments but if the car comes out at the rumored price ($40K+) there's no way it'll be a hot seller.

My current car is 9.5 years old & has 142K miles. I've reduced the number of miles I drive recently so I'm hoping to get a couple more years out of the car. At a measured 24/27 mileage (old EPA is 19/27; new is 17/24) it's not much worse than current new cars so I'm not really suffering at the pump.

As cars are an expense and not an investment, it makes the most sense to get something you can live with for a number of years and stick with it for as long as you can.

 

[Will Rickards]

We don't want to buy the sienna.
We liked it the first year. After that it is just way too big of a car for us.
We live on a street where we have to parallel park it (won't live here in about a month).
3 years with it and I still can't parallel park it effectively. I don't usually drive it though, even on the weekends.
Honestly we are counting down the days till we get rid of it.

I was looking at the hyundai's, also at little hatchbacks like the pontiac viba, and toyota matrix.

 

[Fushigi]

If you're looking at the hatchbacks and like the Hyundais, there will be an Elantra Touring later this year. Not sure if the timing will work out for you. It's a European model so it's not entirely new.

You may also want to look at the 'cute utes' like the Nissan Rogue, Saturn Vue, etc.

Since the Sienna felt too big, I''d probably retract the Taurus from consideration; it seems large on the outside as well as the inside. The Sonata, though, still feels like a midsize car on the outside.

(Side note: Automakers apparently assume everyone loves Flash)

 

[Bozo]

Look at the Scion. My Xb get 28-32 MPG and would haul your family around quite nicely. Price loaded is ~$17300.00.

Bozo :joker:

 

[CougTek]

I like the look of the subaru outback but the gas mileage sucks.

The gas mileage sucks, but it is available in P-ZEV version (environmentally-friendly), so while it still costs you more to drive, at least what goes out of the exhaust pipe is a lot less armful than what's produced by most other vehicles. The Legacy and Outback also earn the highest safety rating from the IIHS ; your chlidren would be safer in there. Subaru's are reliable vehicles and they have all-wheel drive, which is very practical during winter when there's snow.

 

[ddrueding]

I'm very close to a Subaru as my next vehicle. The only downside is a 4-speed automatic (I thought only the American's still used those) and a SO who can't (won't) drive stick.

 

[Bozo]

I'm very close to a Subaru as my next vehicle. The only downside is a 4-speed automatic (I thought only the American's still used those) and a SO who can't (won't) drive stick.

The Tototas and Hondas we test drove a few months ago were all 4 speed automatic.
But you need to remember that they all had electronic transmissions and torgue converters. The torgue converters can be locked and unlocked depending on driving conditions. This effectively gives you an 8 speed automatic.

Bozo :joker:

 

[Clocker]

People get stuck on numbers. Just look at the real-world performance and fuel economy and make your decision based on that.

However, if you want to get stuck on numbers, cars with 5 & 6 & 8 speed automatics are also electronic & have torque converters which effectively give them more ratios.

 

[Clocker]

BTW, I think Honda's all have 5-speed automatics. I know Toyota offers 4 speed & 5 speed automatics in their cars depending on the model

Many Chevy, Saturn, other GM vehicles also have 5 & 6 speed automatics now with more to come.

 

[Clocker]

Looking a little more, you can also get 6-speeds in some Toyotas.

 

[Bozo]

Numbers Game: my point exactly.
If you look at the gas millage rtaings, there is little or no difference between automatics and sticks. The automatics have come a long way in the last 15 years or so.
Actually, if the motors had more torgue across a wider RPM range, you wouldn't need all them speeds. That's where electric motors have a huge advantage.

But, alas, we are stuck with sewing machine motors for the most part.

Bozo :joker:

 

[Fushigi]

It is probably due to gearing, but most modern ATs get the same or better than their MT counterpart. FTM there's also usually only 2-3MPG difference between 4 & 6 cyl models. Interestingly enough, Hyundai's new flagship Genesis comes with either a 290HP V6 or a 375HP V8. The mileage difference is trivial with the V6 at 18/27 and the V8 at 17/25.

 

[ddrueding]

My concern with the 4-speed isn't MPG but the noise associated with high RPM at high speed. My current car has that issue, the noise at 5000RPM for an hour becomes very tiring.

 

[ddrueding]

It is probably due to gearing, but most modern ATs get the same or better than their MT counterpart. FTM there's also usually only 2-3MPG difference between 4 & 6 cyl models. Interestingly enough, Hyundai's new flagship Genesis comes with either a 290HP V6 or a 375HP V8. The mileage difference is trivial with the V6 at 18/27 and the V8 at 17/25.

I've always wondered about that. If the engine is doing basically the same amount of work, how much efficiency do you have to lose by having more potential for work. What about electric motors?

 

[Clocker]

My concern with the 4-speed isn't MPG but the noise associated with high RPM at high speed. My current car has that issue, the noise at 5000RPM for an hour becomes very tiring.

Then make sure you don't just make a decision based on the number of gears and actually find out the RPM an engine runs for your desired speed. There's more acceleration/performance benefit than MPG benefit with more speeds from what I have experienced and read, especially with smaller engines. With smaller, lower torque engines, there may be no difference in top gear engine rpm with a 4speed vs. a 6speed auto at cruising speeds because the engine needs to run like a sewing machine just to produce the torque needed to maintain speed and operate efficiently. Larger V8s generally have an abundance of torque, even at low low RPM, allowing them to benefit more from the higher ratios that may be available with more speeds.

If you really are concerned do a test drive at your typical driving speed... you might have to rent a car to do that

 

[Bozo]

My Xb is running at ~2200 RPM at 60MPH.

The RAV 4 gets better millage with the V6 than the I4.

Bozo :joker:

 

[Fushigi]

If you can't do a long test drive with of whatever car you're considering buying, renting is certainly an option. Sure, it's $50-70 or whatever a day, but it beats paying $30K for something you won't be happy with.

 

[P5-133XL]

I really believe that this is the wrong time to be buying new car. It is too soon for the truely high efficiency vehicals to be inexpensively common and it is too late for cheap gasoline prices. As much as I dislike leasing, I believe it is the right thing to do because your car choices will be so much better than they are now. The other feasible alternative is to buy used and cheap without the expectation of long-term ownership. The last thing you want is to be stuck in a low mileage car (relative to the future) when gas prices are much higher than they are now.

If you think gasoline prices are high now, just wait a few years ...

 

[Handruin]

I've found with my prior two cars being manual transmissions offered better MPG than the window sticker suggested. The EPA says my car should get between 20 mpg / 29 mpg when around town driving averages between 24-26 and highway is 28-32. I still feel if you know how to drive more conservatively, you have a better ability to save gas in a manual than the automatic even if the MPG numbers are only 1MPG off from what a manual transmission offers.

 

[MaxBurn]

If you can't do a long test drive with of whatever car you're considering buying, renting is certainly an option. Sure, it's $50-70 or whatever a day, but it beats paying $30K for something you won't be happy with.

Great advice if you can find the car you want. A sales person ridealong that won't stop talking for a measly four miles or something doesn't show you a thing about the car.

 

[Will Rickards]

Yes a friend rented a prius while his car was in the shop. He let me drive it a bit. That is when I found out how weird driving it really is. Aside from the constantly distracting center display, the performance off the line was delayed as the motor has to start back up first. So you really have to adjust the way you drive. Then I took a look at the price and pretty much ruled it out.

That is why I like the idea of an electric motor. No delay off the line and no reason for bad performance.

More and more I'm leaning towards the lease. I just hate to waste payments for three years again.

 

[ddrueding]

If you can still get a good deal on a lease. Most of the manufacturers are getting out of that game, or raising the price a lot.

 

[Pradeep]

Had good luck with our 04 and 05 Elantras. No issues of note. Now the boys are getting bigger at 11 and 8 we will probably go with something roomier next time, at least on one of the vehicles. Averaging over 30 mpg. Elanta Touring looks nice, I plan to hook up a trailer and do some 4 wheeler towing shortly. I believe the Elantra is rated for 1500/3000 pounds (un braked/braked).

 

[Pradeep]

The lease on my truck is up in a month ($45K Avalanche LTZ). With my discount I was paying $263 per month. Same vehicle with my discount is now ~$1000 per month!! :-( I will probably extend my lease for a month or two and then be jumping into a '09 Malibu asap. The new Malibu is a fantastic car. Really well made with a very nice interior/exterior IMO. Huge leap from the last Malibu.

$263 lease payment on a $45K truck? ~$1000 per month seems more like a normal figure. Did GM eat the additional cost?