Which components for a basic, high-reliability system?

[i]

Hiya everybody. Nice to be back here. I hope everyone is doing well.

I have a question, and as I've been effectively absent from most aspects of system-building for more than a year (!), this seemed the obvious place to come looking for help.

I need to build a computer for my father. I'm not looking for the most up-to-date stuff ... probably the opposite. I'd like to find items that have been out for a while and have a reputation for high reliability. The reason I'm looking for items that are no longer quite so cutting edge is that I'm hoping to keep costs down as much as possible that way. There must be some good options there, right?

Anyone have suggestions? It'd be great if I had a list of stuff that could all be found at one or two locations to save on shipping too. I used to have good luck with both Mwave and Hypermicro. Are they still good places to look for stuff?

I'd need:
Motherboard
CPU
RAM
Hard disk (would love SCSI, but too expensive ... might consider Serial ATA)
Case & PS

I think I can probably find some mid-range AGP ATI video card and an Intel 100 network card of some sort.

 

[honold]

if reliability is clearly paramount to speed, i would give consideration to a fanless mini-itx board and a fanless (possibly dc) power supply. the less moving parts you have, the better.

 

[Mercutio]

mini-itx, unfortunately, doesn't lend to cutting costs.

 

[i]

Funny you should mention mini-ITX. I'd just started looking again this past week at tiny PCs as an option for a firewall. Several months ago I came across this one:

http://www.annso.com.tw/annsowebsite/Product/CPU&SYSTEM/FireWall/FGM-563.htm

I'm still in awe. Have you seen one of these for sale anywhere in North America by any chance? There seem to be a few different companies in Taiwan that carry them, but I haven't seen anyone offering a price.

Anyway, as for this PC, I think I'm going to stick with a more standard setup. I figure it'll be easier to upgrade in the future, and will be less prone to heat issues.

 

[honold]

www.soekris.com

i've got one of those running openbsd 2.9 on 32mb compactflash acting as a router for a company that has over a year of uptime

 

[Mercutio]

I suspect there's a high degree of reliability in the newest VIA processors, since they can run without a fan, but I don't know enough about that market to make suggestions.

But I do know what parts I've had good luck with.

GA-7VAX
Tbred XP 1700 +
Speeze "whisperrock" fan
256MB Samsung PC2700
40GB 7200rpm Samsung hard disk
Liteon 48x CD-RW
Radeon 7000 32MB
Floppy
Compucase 6812 case

Total for all that should come to well under $400.
A similar machine using a Celeron P4 and a decent-ish board would probably also be under $400.

 

[timwhit]

I would go with the items Mercutio mentioned, but I would use the Asus A7N266-VM motherboard. This way you don't need a video card or a NIC. It is worked perfectly the 10 times I have used it in system builds. And it's only $70 from Newegg.

 

[time]

Fanless doesn't necessarily mean higher reliability. As you say, having cooler components is a better focus.

Your first point of failure is the power supply, so you should definitely select that carefully. I'd also go with Merc's recommendation of HEC (Compucase) - they seem to have a similar culture to Lite-On: high quality at a low price. Failing that, lash out on an Antec/Sparkle/Zalman/etc and hope for the best - just stay away from unidentifiable brands.

I have more faith in the Gigabyte 7VAX than the Asus A7N266-VM, but based more on perceived quality and anecdotal evidence than numbers, I'm afraid.

Using an 80mm CPU fan as Mercutio suggests should greatly reduce the chance of early failure there. In any case, all motherboards now have some kind of thermal protection, and believe me, it does work.

No-one could argue the selection of a Samsung HDD for best reliability, but I've become more influenced by RMA policies - which is why Seagate is now off my list for this country (they actually have to be returned to Singapore for warranty replacement). The WD and Samsung distributor in Oz is streets ahead.

 

[CougTek]

Hiya everybody.

Hi.

Anyone have suggestions?

Many have and will

I'd need:
Motherboard
CPU
RAM
Hard disk (would love SCSI, but too expensive ... might consider Serial ATA)
Case & PS

Fine

I think I can probably find some mid-range AGP ATI video card and an Intel 100 network card of some sort.

Which means? You plan to buy those two components, or you think you already have them? Whatever.

Mercutio already gave a nice AMD suggestion, so I'll make one on Intel's side. Costlier, but probably faster too and the retention clip of the P4 is better than the one of socket-A. However, I don't think you risk much by going with an Athlon platform. None of mine have failed for cause related to the heatsink retention clip. Most died due to my poor fist retention mecanism.

Pentium-4 low-cost box :

Pentium 4 2.4GHz, 533MHz FSB retail -------- 159$ @ Newegg
Abit IS7 (i865 "Springdale", with GAP feature in latest BIOS version - as fast as Canterwood) ---------- 97$ @ Goooglegear
2 x Crucial/Kingston/Corsair/Geil 256MB PC3200 --------- ~80-90$ somewhere
The famous Compucase with 300W PSU ------- ~60$ somewhere
Western Digital WD800JB 80GB 8MB cache 3 years warranty ------- 82$ @ Newegg
____________________________________
~500$ shipped.


I figure that since you didn't ask for a CD-ROM/DVD-ROM/burner, it means you already have one. Did not include graphic card and motherboard already has 10/100 LAN and sound I think.

 

[honold]

Fanless doesn't necessarily mean higher reliability. As you say, having cooler components is a better focus.

yes, it does. fan failure = component failure. this is avoided if the component doesn't need one.

 

[blakerwry]

I would say a fanless pII/III with the 440BX chipset is reliable... Doesn't mean I'd buy one today.

 

[Mercutio]

Do the fanless VIA chips run hotter than P4/AMD chips that're properly cooled?

I'm wondering what not putting a fan into a VIA-based machine does to overall temps for other components.

 

[blakerwry]

I think most computers need atleast a single fan. This is mainly because of the hard disk and its ability to 1) produce alot of heat and 2) its reletively low tolerence for heat. Besides the CPU/PSU, traditionally the hard disk is the next hottest piece of hardware. Current trends are showing high end gfx cards and northbridges to be tempermental as well.


I guess I should chime in that kt266(a) chipsets usually run great fanless and my fanless Saphire Radeon9000 is doing quite well in the SFF i put it in.

 

[e_dawg]

My ASUS A7N266-VM has been excellent overall.

My system not been as stable recently after installing a bunch of new drivers and patches for Office (Outlook seems to be crashing occasionally now, which it never did before). But since it was 100% stable for many months prior to this, I suspect it is a software/driver issue, and not a hardware (motherboard) problem.

Frank over at SR has noted a couple problems with his A7N266-VM board (USB scanner freezes in the middle of scanning, DVD video playback choppy), though.

Mobo: A7N266-VM
CPU: low-end Thoroughbred (XP 1700-1800)
RAM: Crucial PC2700
HD: FDB-equipped model like Seagate Cuda V, Maxtor DM+ 8 or 9
P/S: Antec TruePower 330
A/V/LAN: mobo includes integrated GF2MX, Dolby 5.1, 10/100

 

[Adcadet]

something that occured to me regarding fans and failure. Fan failures do happen, as we all know. A fan failure on a CPU can mean CPU death in seconds (assuming the thermal protection system doesn't work as advertised). So before you know anything is wrong, your CPU melts. On the other hand, a fan in the case keeps your case temps down and presumably prolongs the life of your components. If your case fan dies, it does NOT mean any component is likely to die anytime soon. So when I think about building a reliable system I think of a cool and/or under clocked CPU than can be run with a big HS and no fan (thought not big enough to risk falling off given reasonable transportation care), and a single case fan that makes enough noise so that when it fails, the user will notice it and do something - like calling i and saying "hey son, my computer isn't making much noise....what should I do." Then i will come over, see the dead fan, replace it, and i's father is back in busines.

I was going to compare this to US vs. European immunization/testing practices for tuberculosis, but it's kindof a stretch and isn't perfectly clear. So I'm returning to my cave now.

 

[e_dawg]

You don't need to have a loud fan just to indicate whether it is working or not. Most mobos have hardware monitoring that will trigger an alarm should one of the case/CPU fans drop below a certain RPM or one of the voltage rails deviate from their intended voltage.

 

[CougTek]

Fan failures do happen, as we all know. A fan failure on a CPU can mean CPU death in seconds (assuming the thermal protection system doesn't work as advertised).

While this belief is wide spread, it is wrong. Two months ago, I cleaned up and reorganized the wires inside my main computer case. When I powered it up, I notice a significant drop in noise. I assumed it was because I removed the dust from the system fans. Five minutes passed, four of them with the FAH client running as well as other small applications like Phoenix and Zone Alarm before the system started to become erratic and eventually froze. I hard-rebooted it, but it refused to power up again. Opened the case and saw that I forgot to replug the CPU heatsink fan. The heatsink was barely touchable. I fixed that immediately and had no problem afterward.

One would guess this box uses a Tualatin or some other low-power processor. Wrong again. It's an old 1500+ Palomino overclocked to 1700+ level by the FSB. So, assuming you have an efficient heatsink, chances are that a fan failure won't kill your processor...unless you're not in front of your PC. It will kill the CPU in a matter of minutes (more than 5), not in seconds. What can kill a CPU in seconds is running without a heatsink at all. But that's two completly different things. For a lonely server box accumulating dust and missing attention, a CPU fan failure probably means death. But for an ordinairy PC box used with someone sitting in front of it for most of its uptime : no.

 

[i]

Ok, based on the responses (thanks all!) I think I have a list of stuff I'm going to go with:

GIGABYTE GA-7VAXP ................ $100.11
AMD ATHLON XP 2000+ .............. $ 69.30
CRUCIAL 512MB PC2700 ............. $ 62.06
INTEL PRO/100+ ................... $ 29.50
ATI A.I.W. RADEON 7500 64MB AGP .. $118.65
COMPUCASE LX-6A19 ................ $ 57.00
                                   =======
                           Total:  $436.62

These are Mwave prices. I figure I can save some shipping cost if I get the bulk of the items from there. Unfortunately they don't have the Compucase LX-6812 ... the 6A19 is bigger than I need but I presume it'd be fine.

The Athlon is the retail version that includes a fan. I'm not sure if that's a good idea or not, but it would be one less thing for me to have to worry about.

Is the memory I listed above ok? Last time I bought RAM you basically had the choice between PC100 and PC133. Now it seems like there are 10 different options. The motherboard apparently can use PC3200, 2700, 2100, or 1600 RAM. Eeesh. Is PC2700 the best option?

And finally, you'll note the lack of a hard disk. I don't know what to do there yet. I believe those of you suggesting the Samsung option are doing so because it has a better warranty ... is that correct? Truthfully I'm kind of wondering about the latest generation of Seagate Barracudas. I've been hearing for ages how quiet and cool they run - if true I have to say that's an attractive point.

 

[CougTek]

Why spending that much on the motherboard? Does your father really need all those add-ins the VAXP has? IMO, a better value for him would be either the KT400A-based GA-7VAX-A at 70.62$ or even more the Shuttle AK38N based on the KT333CF (CF because it uses the updated VT8235 south bridge) at only 50$. I ordered one of the latter and waiting for it to arrive. Seems like a strong board for a value system. Many here like Shuttle's low cost offerings.

Mercutio is the man to ask about A.I.W cards, but I think the 7500 version was deprived of some nifty features compared to the 8500 version. Ask Indiana Geek for more.

 

[e_dawg]

The Athlon is the retail version that includes a fan. I'm not sure if that's a good idea or not, but it would be one less thing for me to have to worry about.

Normally, I toss the HSF included with retail CPU's. They are a little noisy and inefficient compared to aftermarket HSF's. I don't have access to any Speeze stuff, but Merc swears by them. Apparently, they are more effective and quieter than the retail HSF's and pretty inexpensive to boot.

I tried the Zalman 3100 and Tt Volcano 7+ HSF's -- both reported to be among the quieter HSF's. The Zalman is very quiet in "silent" mode, but the cooling power is pretty weak at that setting (T-bred 2200 CPU temp is 56 C with a mobo temp of 37 C) . In normal mode, it is no quieter than any retail HSF I've seen. I wish they provided something in the middle which would be just perfect. The Tt Volcano 7+ provides pretty good cooling power even with the fan on low. Palomino 1800 CPU temp about 42 C with the mobo at 33 C. The noise level is about half way between the normal and silent modes of the Zalman... Ultimately, I find the Volcano 7+ is better because the cooling power on low is as good as the Zalman on normal.

Is PC2700 the best option?

IMO, yes. If you were a frequent upgrader, I might suggest Corsair dual-channel PC3200, as your next mobo would probably use that type of RAM. But since you are not a frequent upgrader, by the time you get a new mobo, we will have moved on to another memory technology by then, and your expensive dual-channel PC3200 would be of little use. I have never had a problem with Crucial -- they are true name brand, unlike most "Infineon" or "Samsung" RAM. They use the cream of the crop DRAM chips from Micron, use quality 6-layer PCB's, and undergo extensive quality control and burn-in testing. I would suggest buying directly from Crucial.com in the US, as that virtually eliminates mishandling and possible scamming from other distributors and retailers.

I believe those of you suggesting the Samsung option are doing so because it has a better warranty ... is that correct?

Tannin has had an excellent experience over the years selling Samsungs. I question whether you could expect to receive the same good fortune he has had over the years based on your different location and therefore utilization of different marketing channels. Read the thread on reliability in the FAQ section for more details. The longer warranty would give me a bit more peace of mind, though.

Truthfully I'm kind of wondering about the latest generation of Seagate Barracudas. I've been hearing for ages how quiet and cool they run - if true I have to say that's an attractive point.

The latest Seagate drive (7200.7) is a step down from the Cuda IV/V IMO. They are noisier and possibly slower (in seek-dependent activities). If you can get a Cuda V (you can probably still find them in the channel for a few more weeks before they run out), then do get one, but if you can only get the 7200.7, I would pass. The Maxtor DM+9 would be a better bet.

 

[CougTek]

I don't have access to any Speeze stuff, but Merc swears by them.

In fact, you do. ExCaliberPC.com sells a few models, this one being their most interesting. They ship passed the northern border of U.S. too for 10.61$. I realize that 22.61U$ is too much for that heatsink, but nothing forbids you to order something else with the heatsink (or to order more than one heatsink) to lower the shipping cost per item.

Just in case you're curious about the heatsink and wanted to get a sample unit.

 

[e_dawg]

Thanks for the heads-up, Coug.

Have you ordered from ExCaliberPC before? If so, what kind of additional fees were you charged?

I am usually reluctant to order from the US due to the slow and expensive shipping, brokerage fees ($30), 8% PST (only have to pay GST when I order from BC), and currency conversion premiums (VISA makes 2-3% on every conversion from C$ to US$).

 

[CougTek]

I ordered a Shuttle motherboard last week from them to test those things (brokerage fees and shipping delays). I should normally receive the board in the middle of the coming week. So far, my VISA has only been charged once for the amount advertized on ExCaliberpc's site. I hope I won't be hit too hard with the [insert crude word to express despise] brokerage fees. One thing I didn't like was that Excaliberpc favors the dreaded UPS instead of FedEx. IMO, UPS folks don't dress in brown for nothing.

 

[honold]

IMO, UPS folks don't dress in brown for nothing.

lol

 

[Mercutio]

Why spending that much on the motherboard? Does your father really need all those add-ins the VAXP has? IMO, a better value for him would be either the KT400A-based GA-7VAX-A at 70.62$

[snippage]

Mercutio is the man to ask about A.I.W cards, but I think the 7500 version was deprived of some nifty features compared to the 8500 version. Ask Indiana Geek for more.

Listen to Coug. No reason to pay extra for the AXP unless you're going to use at least one of its many outstanding extra features (USB2, Firewire, digital sound input, RAID).

There's nothing wrong with the AIW 7500. The retail package includes the remote wonder, which is the coolest toy ever. The AIW7500 is a standard-issue Radeon 7x00 with a standard-issue Rage Theatre chip, just like all the other AIWs except the 9700.
The 7500 can't run MMC version 8, which would be a little disappointing, if MMC version 8 didn't add a whole bunch of stupid DRM crap to your video recording tools. MMC 7.5 added one touch record, which is the only feature I can't do without. The 7500 handles it just fine.

Someone with a slight interest in computer games would probably be better served by the Radeon 9000 VIVO, which, for not having the Remote Wonder, costs around $70 and *CAN* use "modern" versions of ATI software.

 

[time]

fan failure = component failure. this is avoided if the component doesn't need one.

If the component doesn't need one, then failure of the fan is hardly likely to cause component failure, is it?

I'm particularly disputing your suggestion that fanless power supplies are more reliable than actively cooled ones. There are other components under stress apart from the fan; electronic components such as electrolytic capacitors are by no means guaranteed to outlast a mechanical device under such adverse conditions.

Why do you think hard disk drive arrays are actively cooled? The drives won't die if the fan stops - the aim is to prolong their life.

Don't misunderstand me, I don't believe in using fans where they aren't needed, but I do recognize that they have their place. It's naive to simply chant a mantra about moving parts per se.

 

[time]

So, assuming you have an efficient heatsink, chances are that a fan failure won't kill your processor...unless you're not in front of your PC. It will kill the CPU in a matter of minutes (more than 5), not in seconds. What can kill a CPU in seconds is running without a heatsink at all. But that's two completly different things. For a lonely server box accumulating dust and missing attention, a CPU fan failure probably means death.

As I said, the thermal protection really does work, on Athlon as well as P4 boards. You don't need to be in front of the PC.

Recently, I was experimenting with different CPU coolers and became a little cavalier with the mounting procedure. Specifically, a Falcon Rock II ended up with its base sitting up on the raised part of the socket, so none of the heatsink was actually touching the CPU core. I couldn't understand why every time I turned on the PC, it immediately turned off again.

After refitting the cooler, the CPU was right as rain. Despite my efforts.

 

[Tea]

Wow! I slip out for a day or two and you guys have already started this tread, run with it, and beaten it to death! What can I add? Well, apart from using a video card I trust (i.e., Nvidia), nuffin.

The mere fact that Mercutio (who is no fool) suggested a card from the dark side, and various others of you (who are not fools either) didn't jump all over him tells me quite a lot, actually: it sounds like ATI have (finally) come of age.

I'd still use a Nvidia card though. There is nothing like lots of hands-on examples under your belt to give you that nice, comfortable "I trust this thing" feeling.

 

[e_dawg]

Indeed, the improved stability of ATI's Catalyst drivers have arguably allowed ATI to catch nVidia over the past year. If their drivers were slow and buggy as they have been historically, their superior hardware would have been wasted.

I bought a Radeon 9500 Pro for my new box and find it does a great job. RealPlayer seems to have the odd problem playing a video twice unless I close and reopen RP, but I am not sure it is entirely ATI's fault.

After my disastrous results with the AIW 128, I wasn't sure if I could trust ATI again. My worst problems were with vid cap and other MMC related activities. Thus, I made a point of NOT buying an All in Wonder type card. While I can say that their regular video cards work pretty well, I cannot vouch for their AIW solutions. Mercutio and others, however, apparently can.

 

[Tea]

All I have to do now is persuade Tannin. That could be tricky.

 

[i]

Why spending that much on the motherboard? Does your father really need all those add-ins the VAXP has? IMO, a better value for him would be either the KT400A-based GA-7VAX-A at 70.62$ ...

...

Listen to Coug. No reason to pay extra for the AXP unless you're going to use at least one of its many outstanding extra features (USB2, Firewire, digital sound input, RAID).

Thanks for pointing that one out, M & CT. I've taken a look at the 7VAX-A. The only extra thing the 7VAX-P provides that my father would potentially use would be the firewire ports. However, most of the add-on firewire cards seem to be in the $50 to $70 range (at least for those cards that come from manufacturers I've heard of). So I think the extra $30 would be worth it for the 7VAX-P.

Is PC2700 the best option?

IMO, yes. If you were a frequent upgrader, I might suggest Corsair dual-channel PC3200, as your next mobo would probably use that type of RAM. But since you are not a frequent upgrader, by the time you get a new mobo, we will have moved on to another memory technology by then, and your expensive dual-channel PC3200 would be of little use. I have never had a problem with Crucial -- they are true name brand, unlike most "Infineon" or "Samsung" RAM. They use the cream of the crop DRAM chips from Micron, use quality 6-layer PCB's, and undergo extensive quality control and burn-in testing. I would suggest buying directly from Crucial.com in the US, as that virtually eliminates mishandling and possible scamming from other distributors and retailers.

Thanks, I will go with PC2700 ... and order direct from Crucial.

I will also look into a better CPU cooling fan of some sort. Mercutio, where can I find the cooling fans you speak so highly of? And regardless, if I decide to go with a third party solution, am I going to need some kind of thermal transfer goo?

I'm still up in the air over the hard disk. I think if I can find a Barracuda V I'll go for it (thanks for the advice there too).

As for the video card ... two words: feature creep. 8)

It's a toss up between the $120 All-In-Wonder card, and the $0 8MB ATI Xpert 98 AGP card I've had sitting on a shelf for a few years. The only reason I'm considering the A.I.W. card is because I'm sure my father would find the video input useful.

Thanks for the feedback everyone. And honold, you've got my attention over those Soekris systems. I'd been looking hard at their site literally the day before you posted. Maybe I'll start a new discussion in the Pub&brewery section about SBCs later this month if I can scrounge up the cash to actually get one.

 

[Mercutio]

Tannin, ATI is like VIA. Either you have the touch and it's fine or you don't and it isn't. Just the same, I didn't start to "like" ATI products until just a couple of years ago, and all I can say is that ATI's drivers have only gotten better.

Besides, the Radeon 7x00s look way, WAY better for 2D than those crappy $20 MSI GF2MX cards you seem to like.
The Xpert card, however, is not a good looking card. The output from those tends toward the lousy side of the spectrum. Keep it around for troubleshooting stuff, but it doesn't belong in a modern computer.

i, A Firewire card is a firewire card. As with a great many other things, there's just a couple of companies that make firewire controller chips. A $15 firewire card winds up being exactly the same as a $50 one. dvcentury.com usually has one in the $12 - $15 range.

Speeze/Spire fans can be found at newegg.com. The one I absolutely love is the 5F263B1M3.

 

[blakerwry]

Like I said, I'm pretty happy with the Radeon 9000. It's almost as fast as a geforce3 Ti 200(which puts it around geforce4 MX range), but runs fanless and has a reasonable price tag.

I really can't see buying a top end video card because there are several new games about to be released that will simply require better graphics than what is currently available at reasonable prices. Buying 6 months from now will be a different situation altogether for top end cards.

But back to mid-range cards -Are there anymore low end cards out? even new onboard graphics are typically faster and have better quality than TNT2 solutions of just a few years back. ...Any fanless card that's reletively new from either ATi or Nvidia should be more than adaquate for your father. Is there a reason for the AIW card?

 

[honold]

If the component doesn't need one, then failure of the fan is hardly likely to cause component failure, is it?

when did i mention parts that don't need fans?

I'm particularly disputing your suggestion that fanless power supplies are more reliable than actively cooled ones. There are other components under stress apart from the fan; electronic components such as electrolytic capacitors are by no means guaranteed to outlast a mechanical device under such adverse conditions.

there is little doubt in my mind the #1 cause of psu failure is fan failure followed by component overheating

Why do you think hard disk drive arrays are actively cooled? The drives won't die if the fan stops - the aim is to prolong their life.

yes, all electric devices like cool operating temps.

Don't misunderstand me, I don't believe in using fans where they aren't needed, but I do recognize that they have their place. It's naive to simply chant a mantra about moving parts per se.

the most common causes of pc failure are crashed drives and blown psus. eliminating moving parts will always increase reliability as long as the fanless parts are of equal quality to the fanned ones. there's a reason why people don't use pcs as routers for mission-critical operation: moving parts, interrupt congestion (in the case of pcs), and overly complex operating systems for the purpose. moving parts is #1 with a bullet.

if i truly care about reliability, i don't use moving parts. if i don't mind, i'll just let the warranty handle it and deal with the downtime.

 

[honold]

I bought a Radeon 9500 Pro for my new box and find it does a great job. RealPlayer seems to have the odd problem playing a video twice unless I close and reopen RP, but I am not sure it is entirely ATI's fault.

if you have realplayer installed and your system has a problem (e.g. spontaneous combustion), it is realplayer's fault!

 

[Tea]

Also, Honold forgot to mention that if you have Realplayer installed and you have a different sort of problem, such as acne, flatulence, or marial breakdown, it is Realplayer's fault.

 

[time]

there is little doubt in my mind the #1 cause of psu failure is fan failure followed by component overheating

The components can and will fail without waiting for the fan to die. As it happens, none of the half-dozen blown or problematic power supplies that I threw out the other day had dead fans. I'm just trying to point out that you're attributing everything to a single mechanical component, IMO without justification.

the most common causes of pc failure are crashed drives and blown psus.

Actually, I've seen far more drive failures involving a controller problem than a head crash. And failing media has little or nothing to do with the mechanical aspects of the drive either (unless it was a crash, of course).

there's a reason why people don't use pcs as routers for mission-critical operation: moving parts, interrupt congestion (in the case of pcs), and overly complex operating systems for the purpose.

PCs just aren't that reliable physically; they're designed to be cheap. That doesn't mean that you can't have a reliable computer with an Intel CPU. And APIC etc takes care of interrupt considerations.

moving parts is #1 with a bullet. if i truly care about reliability, i don't use moving parts.

Reading this, anyone could be forgiven for thinking you believe that routers don't have moving parts! Sorry, but they most certainly have fans, as do most switches, or indeed anything that needs more than a modicum of cooling AND needs to be reliable. Routers don't usually have hard disks because they don't need one; they only need a storage device to boot off, and Flash has the advantages of infinitely better shock resistance, smaller size, and lower power. Before then it was a floppy drive, and surely you're not trying to tell me that they are reliable? In any case, some routers DO have a hard disk.

I think you're confusing cost with reliability. For example, a typical Papst 80mm fan (used in God knows how much electrical and electronic equipment worldwide) has a service life of 80,000 hours, or nine years. But they're not cheap, so you're not likely to find one in a cheap appliance.

The cheap, tiny fans you find on video cards and northbridges are a whole different ballgame. Perhaps this is what you are thinking of, in which case I am in complete agreement.

 

[honold]

i had wasted a bit of time quoting and whatnot, but it really was wasted time. i'm truly sick of the pedantic responses from all the emotionals around here who can't even seem to keep threads orthogonal. if you want to prove me wrong on the dell thread, do it on the dell thread.

you see, i said '#1' because that means there is a ranking system. if i meant 'only, i would have said 'only, or left the number out altogether. i in no way attributed all failure to moving parts. all i said was this: if reliability is clearly paramount to speed...the less moving parts you have, the better. that actually sparked debate?! could you please prove that wrong?

an i386 cannot route extreme packets without becoming interrupt bound, even if the nic drivers are polling. there's a reason cisco dropped i386 on the pix a long time ago.

i have a dell pe600sc (an unbeatable deal! yuk yuk) with onboard intel gige and 2 adaptec 64bit quad ethernet cards. os is freebsd-stable. the system acts as a cvs/ftp server (low load) and a filtering bridge. all it does is simply bridge 4 times (one bridge in and out for every pair of ethernet ports on the adaptecs). it filters out multicast traffic by mac address using the ipfw packet filter. a singular ghost session generates extreme cpu utilization solely because of interrupts.

routers/switches have fans, but they will not explode if the fans die as long as they're in a proper environment. an athlon will explode in a proper environment without active cooling.

but anyway, this is off-topic and useless conversation. if you have a credible reason to disagree with the fact that having fewer moving parts increases reliability in a pc, start another thread for it.

 

[e_dawg]

Yes, Real is the devil (the company and the software), but I am finding that RealOne Player is actually better than WMP and especially QuackTime.

QT... well, just being able to use one version -- any version -- without it crashing on me would be a pleasant surprise. This must be the 800th build and the 3rd major version of QuackTime that been widely available in the Windows world... and it's still as buggy as hell. These guys make the old ATI driver development team look good.

Windows Media Player works decently (well, at least it runs without crashing), although I am disappointed they had to add all that crap to the basic WMP version 6 that came with W2k in subsequent versions. Too bad you can only use codecs up to version 8 with version 6 of the player. Increasingly, content is being created in WMP 9 format, which is not backwards compatible with previous codecs. One quirk that irritates me is that WMP doesn't really allow you to go forwards/backwards or go to a particular point in the video. I can understand the difficulty in doing that with streaming content, but the same thing happens with WMV files on the hard disk.

Despite that incessant pop-up message center box, I find RealOne Player to be the lesser of three evils...

 

[e_dawg]

... I guess that should be "the least of three evils"?