Which Socket A?

[time]

This is slightly different from Merc's fleet challenge, so I thought I'd start a different thread.

I've decided that much as I dislike propagating Intel's spawn, any new motherboards I use should have USB 2.0 (I'd like them to have Firewire too, but that's a bit tougher). Actually, it would be nice if they had a front panel audio connector too, but this Intel feature seems to have disappeared. :-?

The emphasis is very much on stability and reliability. Cost is second, although I don't see why I should pay 50% more for Asus.

I think I've narrowed it down to three possibilities, none of which I'm 100% happy with:

• Epox 8K5A2 (KT333) - unusual I/O backplane.
• Gigabyte GA-7VAX (KT400) - don't want the onboard LAN, but the layout of the cheaper 7VA is appalling. Yes, the more expensive 7VAXP has Firewire, but as Tea pointed out elsewhere, you could buy a firewire card for the difference and still have change.
• Soltek SL-75FRV (KT400) - don't mind some loss of performance, but one review measured 18% lower throughput (Quake III) than the Gigabyte, which is a couple of CPU speed grades. Maybe the next version?

Comments?

 

[Tannin]

I'm using the Epox at present, Time. Or at least I've used a couple of them, and the backplane aside, found them to be fine so far. They are reasonably priced but - alas! - out of stock at present so today I bought five pcs of the RAID-equipped version instead, despite not having the slightest intention of using the RAID feature. They were only about $15 more than the non-RAID ones, so they still work out cheaper than most other brands.

I haven't seen the Solteks yet. My Soltek distributor is slacking a little of late and we are not getting them as promptly as we used to. She tells me that she only brings them down from Brisbane for me and for one other major customer, so (as a matter of coutesy) I try to order Solteks in reasonable quantity or not at all. (So she can sensibly order a couple of boxes of them and not wind up stuck with the leftovers.) But I'm a little less keen on Soltek than I was. They are dearer than they used to be (at least my buy price is higher, relative to the other boards I can get), and I have not had the same wonderful fuss-free success with our DRV4s and DRV5s as we had with the DRV2 and the SL-75KAV.

I'll post again when I've had more experience with the Epox boards, though it might be a while, as it's the quiet time of year and these should last me for several weeks.

 

[Mercutio]

I've had issue with Epox over the last few months. In four months I had four boards (8KHA+ and 8KHAL) all lose the PS/2 keyboard. Anybody else have that problem, ever? I sold 21 systems with Epox boards in the last year, and those are the only problems I've had. It's just odd that it was the same problem.

 

[Groltz]

I've been using an Epox 8K3A+ (KT333) for a few months now and have been very happy with it. It is similar to the 8K5A2. It is quite stable and outstanding in its CPU overclocking ability. No PS/2 problems, either.

 

[blakerwry]

I've had issue with Epox over the last few months. In four months I had four boards (8KHA+ and 8KHAL) all lose the PS/2 keyboard. Anybody else have that problem, ever? I sold 21 systems with Epox boards in the last year, and those are the only problems I've had. It's just odd that it was the same problem.

I've never seen that.... I guess you could always goto USB as an alternative (You can get a ps/2 keyboard/mouse to USB connector so you dont actually have to replace the keyboard for a reletively low sum)

 

[Mercutio]

I could do that. Or I could RMA the boards for having something so simple and so critical die well inside the warranty period. Which is what I did.

 

[CougTek]

I strongly suggest the GigaByte over the others. Recent GigaByte's motherboards, both for P4 and Athlon, have shown very high stability for the memory management. Better than other brands. You can run more memory sticks at agressive settings and high clock frequency on a GigaByte KT400 than on most other KT400-based motherboards.

And here, the VAX cost the same or lower than the Soltek and EPoX.

 

[Tea]

There iz one particular Epox board model that I've had trouble with. I'll check which one later on today. The otherz have all been good.

 

[time]

In four months I had four boards (8KHA+ and 8KHAL) all lose the PS/2 keyboard.

Just curious - did you flash the BIOS on these boards?

 

[time]

You can run more memory sticks at agressive settings and high clock frequency on a GigaByte KT400 than on most other KT400-based motherboards.

Out of interest, which KT400 boards are better?

And do you have any comments on the layout of the base model 7VA?

 

[Mercutio]

Just curious - did you flash the BIOS on these boards?

Yes, I tried that on the first two. The third was current when I got it back (good user!), the forth was using the stock rev1 BIOS (dated Sept. 2001) but by that time I was tired of dealing with it.
My guess is Epox sent out a batch of boards with bad fuses on the keyboard port, but I really don't know.

 

[CougTek]

Out of interest, which KT400 boards are better?

Damn! I wrote a reply to this post a few hours ago, but I think I hit "preview" instead of "submit" and now my post is lost. Oh well. I was talking about the GA-7VAX. I doubt GigaByte can succeed well with one of their KT400-based board and screw the others. Since their recent SiS648 and i845P/GE motherboards for Pentium 4 also handle high frequency RAM modules impressively well, I think it's safe to assume that their GA-7VA and GA-7VAXP will be just as stable as the GA-7VAX. GB's board designers seem to have developped a circuitry that just "works" well with DDR SDRAM.

And do you have any comments on the layout of the base model 7VA?

Nope. I've only messed with the GA-7VAX.

Based on a quick look at it...

... it seems better suited for a low-height enclosure since the IDE connectors are quite low on the board and the ATA cables might fall a bit short to reach the optical drives inside a bigger-than-mid-tower enclosure. There's very little room between the floppy connector and AGP slot, so forget the air flow usually coming from the front case fan. But since the new AMD recommended design prone the evacuation of the hot air by the rear and pretty much says that front fan doesn't improve cooling much, it might not be such a big deal.

Forget putting a GeForce 4 Ti 4600 into this board. Only short AGP cards will be practical.

On the good side, there's a lot of space around the CPU socket and with the way it is oriented, you won't have to fear for the RAM stick when installing the heatsink.

 

[Mercutio]

I heart gigabyte. Great docs. Sensible setup - I like the markings on the LED pins and the color-coded connectors. I like that I can choose CPU plug and play or set it with DIP switches. Dual BIOS is a good thing as is standard USB2 on their products. Just a good deal all around.

 

[Buck]

I heart gigabyte. Great docs. Sensible setup - I like the markings on the LED pins and the color-coded connectors. I like that I can choose CPU plug and play or set it with DIP switches. Dual BIOS is a good thing as is standard USB2 on their products. Just a good deal all around.

Sold!

Seriously, those are very good points Mecutio. But alas, that fan on the Northbridge! How about just using a well designed heatsink?

 

[Mercutio]

I've got two of the big board running here - the AXP - and I can tell you that the fan at least initially is quiet. The KT333-based RXx had a good heat sink. Man, I wish I could buy good aftermarket northbridge heatsinks.

 

[Tannin]

That questionable Epox model: 8KHAL.

As Coug says, Gigabte are doing almost everything right these days. Except their manuals, of course - Gigabyte still can't do manuals. But I haven't tried their latest and greatest: too expensive. I'll come to them if I can't find better value elsewhere. But I love the older Gigabyte boards, after they have dropped from the typical Gigabyte little-bit-too-dear new product price to the typical very-good-value-indeed Gigabyte mid-lfe and EOL price.

I just built a system with one of those five Epox 8K5A2+boards I mentioned. Yup, the non-standard I/O plate is a pain, but outside of that, it's very impressive.

It's six dollars more than the ageing Soltek SL-75DRV5 but, in addition to the usual features, adds Highpoint RAID (I could care less), VIA 10/100 LAN (works fine), USB 2.0, four USB 1.0 ports with (wonder of wonders!) a decently long cable for the extra two and (a classic Epox virtue) a sensible, rational pin-out. As always with Epox, the minor connectors are laid out rationally, but not as easy to see or reach as most of their boards.

The CPU socket is laid the correct way (with the clips front-rear, not sideways where you have to remove the PSU to change fans), it has a cute round heatsink (not the square one pictured) instead of a chipset fan, and a full compliment of ports. It comes with the excellent PC-cillan and Ghost, as good a manual as you could ask for, and is a little cramped but workable.

My only real complaint is the stupid layout of the drive connectors: they are unlabeled, and the main IDE headers are back-to-front! The location of the floppy and RAID connectors could lead to difficulties too.

All in all, I am very impressed.

 

[Tannin]

Very comprehensive BIOS too.

 

[Mercutio]

I have to say, Tannin, that I don't see where you're coming from on Gigabyte's manuals. I think the docs I've gotten with my boards has been pretty good. The installation poster has everything an experienced tech needs to know to set up the board, plus the case sticker with the layout if you need it. That's certainly more documentation than most manufacturers provide, right there. The manual with the RX, RXP, AX and AXP (nearly the same) is as comprehensive as any I've gotten. Certainly better than Asus or FIC or Soyo. As good as Abit - a company I don't much like, but one that does write high-quality documentation, IMO.

 

[Tannin]

It looks good, Mercutio, and you can see that they are trying hard to get them right, but all too many Gigabyte docs are riddled with errors, even today.I don't worry about it too much. Better a good board with a bad manual than a bad board with a good manual!

 

[Mercutio]

Ah. I guess it hasn't been something I've noticed. The poster they print has been good enough for my needs.

 

[Tannin]

I'm inclined to perhaps be a little harder on Gigabyte docs than I might otherwise be because of their truly horrible ones back in 486 and Pentium days. Besides, I hate the fold-out things because they don't fit nicely on my motherboard manuals shelf. But these days they are probably about as good as most.

In reality, I don't want those glossy things of any description. I just want a listing of the information that you actually need and can't guess, such as the front USB pin-out and the jumper settings (if any). I hate flipping through pages and pages of bullshit about the exact pin-out of the ATX PSU connector or the parallel port (as if anyone ever needs to know this stuff, or can't look it up elsewhere). For mine, the perfect manual says: "Here is the USB pin-out, everything else is self-explanatory, and clearly marked on the board itself in any case."

 

[time]

Mercutio, I asked about BIOS updates because I noticed that Epox had a problem this year with some motherboards where the keyboard wouldn't work after flashing the BIOS. They didn't mention the 8KHA/8KHAL, but I wondered if there might have been a related problem that they haven't 'fessed up to ...

 

[time]

... it seems better suited for a low-height enclosure since the IDE connectors are quite low on the board and the ATA cables might fall a bit short to reach the optical drives inside a bigger-than-mid-tower enclosure. There's very little room between the floppy connector and AGP slot, so forget the air flow usually coming from the front case fan
...
Forget putting a GeForce 4 Ti 4600 into this board. Only short AGP cards will be practical.

Given that standard IDE cables are supposed to be about 18" (I measured 490mm without twists) and typical midtowers are about 450mm high, yes, I figure it will be a hassle. More significantly, it will be quite impossible to run a second optical drive or zip drive without a custom cable. :x

I also noticed that the video card fouls the DIMM levers, but the IDE positioning just rules it out completely for me. Gigabyte normally has excellent layouts, so I am at a loss to understand why they cripppled this model instead of using the same design as the 7VAX and 7VAXP.

 

[time]

We don't normally reveal pricing here, but I thought it might help to mention the relativity from my perspective. I did a rough conversion to US$ to make it easier for everyone except Tannin, who is smart enough to work it out.

Soltek SL-75DRV5 (KT333 + USB 1.1) $70
Gigabyte GA-7VA (KT400) $73
Epox 8K5A2 (KT333) $78
Soltek SL-75FRV (KT400) $78
Gigabyte GA-7VAX (KT400 + LAN) $83
Epox 8K5A2+ (KT333 + RAID) $90
Gigabyte GA-7VAXP (KT400 + RAID + LAN + Firewire) $108

Quantity breaks reduce the Epox pricing a bit but you get the idea. I think if the 7VA had the layout of the 7VAX, the decision would be obvious.

 

[time]

Well, as Tannin said, the Epox is out of stock, so I ordered a couple of Gigabyte GA-7VAX.

The package appears to be up to Gigabyte's excellent standards. Here's the Quick Installation Guide that Mercutio favours:

No USB pinouts as per Tannin's requirements, but how about this?

This is a laminated sticker that you attach to the inside of the case for the future. Note the USB schematic down the bottom. :aok:

 

[Tea]

Hoolie Doolie! The long-time champion of bad documentation slips in a ripsnorter!

What next? Iraq submits fully and completely to weapons inspection with good grace and no tricks? John Howard says 'sorry' to our original inhabitants and declares that the future of Australia lies in partnership with South-east Asia? Alaska becomes the world's biggest exporter of dates, bananas, and and coconuts? Japan vows to use all neccessary force to protect whales from human hunting? England wins the Ashes back?

 

[Cliptin]

Tea, Just so you wouldn't lose your opinion of them they slipped in an error on the sticker. Just for you.

 

[Tea]

Phew! You guyz had me worried there!

 

[Mercutio]

All I can say is, when I saw the color coded pins for the LEDs on the 7VAX, I almost cried. Why can't they all do that?

 

[Mercutio]

... and Cliptin's error: Read the first line of text on the sticker, and see if you can spot it. It's typical, poorly-translated Chinese, but an error is an error.

 

[Tannin]

Colour coded LED pins? Bahh. Brainless technological overkill.

.. .. .. .... .....

That is all you need: sensible bloody layout in the first place. Five pins has to be the power LED. Tick. Four pins has to be speaker. Tick. That only leaves three: hmmm ... power switch is most important, the logical place to put it at one end, nice and prominent. Tick. Reset is next most important, and lgically related to the power switch, therefore the reset is the middle one of the three. Last one remaining has to be the HDD LED. Pin one is (a) marked, and (b) pointing towards the front left of the board.

When you lay out a board correctly in the first place, it's so bloody simpe a nine-year-old could think of it. Alas, the only modern motherboard makers with a half brain-fart between them are EpoX and Shuttle, and even EpoX are slipping.

Colour-coding is for fairies. Real men use proper layout in the first place.

 

[Tea]

Ah, Tannin? Have you ever noticed that when you go into rant mode, your spelling goes to pot?

 

[Mercutio]

Having recently visited spacewalker.com, I wouldn't go handing brains out to Shuttle too quickly, either.

Anyway, you and I (and Buck and Coug and time and heck, most everyone else who visits here, too) have been building PCs long enough to know that pin layouts aren't standard and probably won't ever be. So color coding is a sensible thing to do.

 

[NRG = mc²]

Man, I wish I could buy good aftermarket northbridge heatsinks

Can't you get hold of the Zalman northbridge heatsinks? Not exactly cheap but they work well and look good at it too. They probably go for around $15-20.

 

[Buck]

Colour-coding is for fairies. Real men use proper layout in the first place.

Have you looked at your avatar lately?

 

[blakerwry]

lol

 

[time]

.. .. .. .... .....

Colour-coding is for fairies. Real men use proper layout in the first place.

It's impressive nonetheless:

BTW, the Northbridge heatsink looks pretty beefy. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the fan is window dressing.

 

[blakerwry]

oh, i like that... and + symbols included too.... i want that on my next motherboard..... sign me up big boy!

 

[NRG = mc²]

To revive an old thread, I picked a GA7VAX up for a friend, the colour coding is a good idea but what exactly is the point of making the colour coding totally random?

I've never seen a case which uses a red wire for the power switch, an orange for the power LED, or a blue for the HD LED. Unless anyone else has?!

 

[Jake the Dog]

Having recently visited spacewalker.com, I wouldn't go handing brains out to Shuttle too quickly, either.

surely you don't judge them by their website do you?