Windows 7 nonsense

[MaxBurn]

Want to get this one off to an early start with some good news for me at least.

I posted previously that I had tons of problems getting my understandably ancient HP Color Laserjet 5 working in Vista which was finally solved with a postscript simm and switching to that method.

I had a panic moment in Windows 7 last night when adding my printer and there was nothing listed at all for CLJ5. But there is a nice little windows update button there, hit that and found my driver after about two minutes of updating. HAPPY! This beast escapes the landfill for a while yet.

Other win7 thoughts are that media player is way improved, plays nearly anything except for a few little .mkv file problems which are easily fixed. Also these things all appear to work just fine in media center too, nice, that was my major gripe in vista and just killed any media center enjoyment for me.

 

[Mercutio]

I've seen a couple BSODs now from machines coming out of sleep (not even hibernate, sleep) in Windows 7. This dulls my enthusiasm for its release somewhat, as one of the complaints I have about Vista is that it's still crashy.

Apparently they haven't fixed that yet.

No one should use Windows Media Player for anything, as it remains a target for virus/malware. I'll give Microsoft some credit for bundling a wider selection of video codecs, but since it still uses IE and will download unknown, unsigned codecs from random internet servers and can still deliver a trojan horse payload, it still needs to be replaced and removed at first possible opportunity.

I do like that Win7 lets me "remove" IE using Add/Remove Programs.

 

[ddrueding]

Although faster than Vista, it is still slower than XP x64. The network issues are still there, too. Transferring a 1GB file takes 17 minutes over GbE from a very fast source. I can't even play 720p video over the network without issues.

 

[Bozo]

I do like that Win7 lets me "remove" IE using Add/Remove Programs.

Does it really "remove it" or just delete the icons and links?

 

[timwhit]

Does it really "remove it" or just delete the icons and links?

You can't really remove IE from Windows, it's essentially part of the core. Help relies on it, as well as thousands of other applications.

 

[MaxBurn]

Yeah likely just removes links and prevents explorer from opening a web URL.

Stories like this I just don't know what the hell they want, what would be good enough, are they asking to force MSFT to bundle Opera and other browsers in the OS?? The choice IS there, anyone can go to their site and click the download link. Basically what they are asking is that the OS ship with no browser so they can't even use IE to go get opera or firefox for example.

http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSTRE55B1F220090612

 

[Mercutio]

I think the goal is to let OEMs bundle third party browsers with their systems. IE-less Windows is hardly crippled, just as Media Player-less XP isn't. The presumption is that the vendor will provide something, not the end user.

Another thing I sorely hate about Win7 is the continuing tradition of creating umpty-billion new wireless network connections every time the notebook connects to a new AP. My Thinkpad is on Wireless Connection #17 right now. When I run ipconfig I see 23 or 24 connections. That's bullshit.

 

[Bozo]

But remember, it's Vista, only better :tdown:

 

[ddrueding]

It is better than Vista, but there are many steps between a turd and pizza. That they managed to find an improvement that still wasn't edible isn't suprising.

 

[Santilli]

That's sad. I had such high hopes.....

 

[paugie]

Ahh, but if I remember rightly, they have set an end to XP support

 

[ddrueding]

When was the last time you contacted XP support? When they end critical security patches I'll worry, but IIRC they just did that for W2K not too long ago.

 

[Bozo]

At work we will still be using XP untl you can't get hardware drivers, or the Corp Gestopo mandates a change, or I retire.
With the removal of the Classic desktop, the almost worthless Task Bar, the screwed up Start Menu, the lack of drivers (we would have to replace a s**t load of printers), and the addition of an extra layer of menus for almost everything, the learning curve for the masses here would be mind blowing. I pitty the IT department if they are forced to 'Upgrade'.
Add to that the outragous price, the activation headache even in a corp setting (we have ~200 computers with no internet access and ~100 of those don't have access outside of their control rooms), the question of our proprietary software running on Vista-Redux, and the hardware requirements, no thanks.
Even Server 2008 R2 has been given a hose job. Instead of being lean-n-mean server OS, it's Vista-Redux with a higher price tag.

Linux is starting to look better all the time.

 

[Bozo]

A couple of other "features" of Vista-Redux.
In Win2k and XP you can boot from the CD and do a 'Repair Install'. This has save me countless hours of work. It's not available in Vista-Redux.
Try this: (make a backup if you have important stuff on the hard drive) Use your favorite hard drive utility (Partition Magic etc) and remove the 200Meg boot partition from the hard drive. Now try to do a repair from the Vista-Redux DVD...
Try this: Make a backup of the OS using the built in backup software. Send it to a device across a network with static addresses.
Now boot from the Vista-Redux DVD and try to retrieve it... (hint: you better keep using Acronis)

 

[MaxBurn]

The learning curve I was mostly used to being a new convert to vista recently only in December, this just appears to be more of the same. I don't find a lot of it useful and it does seem to be that extra layer of interference.

Bozo, did you search windows update for the missing drivers? My CLJ5 is from 1998 and they still show drivers for it, surely your old stuff is newer than that?

On backups I still use the old ghost boot floppy and I have never even looked at the MSFT solution. I prefer to step outside of the OS when backing up anything more than a straight up file copy. I have found that in imaging the OS drive it doesn't get something quite right. After restoring the whole drive it won't boot with a 1e error or something (likely wrong on that number). So I go to the vista or win7 boot DVD and run repair, it says it fixed something with the boot and then prompts for a reboot. Then the OS loads fine from the HD. At least vista and win7 are identical in this respect.

Does Arconis handle vista/win7 OS image backups/restore better?

 

[Bozo]

Most of the printers we have are HP. Most in the 800 series. I searched for drivers a while back but gave up.
I have only used Acronis one time on Vista. That was a test and it seemed to work. I would imagine that the newer versions work fine.

 

[ddrueding]

I've almost had it with Win7, the fact that the system in my sig hesitates when I right-click an icon or press the start button and that it's GbE isn't fast enough to stream 720P AVIs is purely unacceptable. Who would have thought at the release of XP that it would be the last good OS from Microsoft? I've already moved the companies messaging to Google Apps, and am pressuring our other software vendors to offer their products as hosted solutions. We are two programs away from blowing off Microsoft altogether, just because they couldn't get their act together.

 

[Stereodude]

Clearly you need a faster machine. :rotfl:

 

[ddrueding]

Clearly you need a faster machine. :rotfl:

Exactly

All this tells me is that there are fundamental flaws in their UI. How many things does it need to look at before it can give me the right context-sensitive menu for right-clicking a .jpg? What crazy statistics is it gathering on my app usage that it takes time to show me the start menu? I clearly don't need an OS this smart.

 

[Chewy509]

Exactly

All this tells me is that there are fundamental flaws in their UI. How many things does it need to look at before it can give me the right context-sensitive menu for right-clicking a .jpg? What crazy statistics is it gathering on my app usage that it takes time to show me the start menu? I clearly don't need an OS this smart.

Isn't there a saying along the lines of: "Intel give'th, Microsoft take'th".

I know the company I work, has no current plans on supporting Vista as a platform (even though all our stuff works on it), and are hoping the Win7 can solve many of the problems Vista has in general, especially with the rise of Atom powered desktops we are starting to see...

 

[Mercutio]

I shrug and work with whatever is put in front of me.

Win7 isn't awful, but it's not what I want right now. If it's allowed to get as long in tooth as XP clearly did, I'm sure I'll grow to appreciate it, if only because my 32 core system with 256GB RAM and 16TB SSD will run it really, really well.

Really, the only thing that XP added to Win2000 is 802.11 support and a decent software firewall. It's been a LONG time since we've gotten useful improvements in Windows in user-level technology.

 

[ddrueding]

I'll work with whatever I get, but for my rig, the one I spend ages in front of, sometimes under serious time constraints, I start to get fussy.

 

[MaxBurn]

I've almost had it with Win7, the fact that the system in my sig hesitates when I right-click an icon or press the start button and that it's GbE isn't fast enough to stream 720P AVIs is purely unacceptable. Who would have thought at the release of XP that it would be the last good OS from Microsoft? I've already moved the companies messaging to Google Apps, and am pressuring our other software vendors to offer their products as hosted solutions. We are two programs away from blowing off Microsoft altogether, just because they couldn't get their act together.

I think I read somewhere that the right click thing was a video driver issue. I don't have that problem anyway.

 

[Mercutio]

Not a Win7 issue, but it's driving me insane and I'm sure Win7 will have something similar:
In my kid classes, I'm seeing significant numbers of systems where Vista's Software Licensing Service dies and cannot be restarted.

It may be a problem with the software load from Dell, but the thing is, I can't find a fix that actually works, other than to re-image the machine and hope it doesn't happen again. Without the Software Licensing Service, many Vista bundled apps don't work. Control Panel doesn't work.

This is not an issue in XP, but I'm expecting to see much more significant deployment of Win7, and with it will come whole new layers of similar retardation.

Also, Windows 7 will apparently have a cut-off date for allowing downgrades to XP, which I presume to be a tactic for forcing businesses to purchase "downgradable" copies so Microsoft can claim an even higher rate of Windows 7 adoption.

 

[ddrueding]

I've had it. Using this guide to build my next install of XP x64 now...

 

[sechs]

I've had it. Using this guide to build my next install of XP x64 now...

Skip to the chase:
http://www.ryanvm.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6400

 

[ddrueding]

Yup, the guide/files I was using use 5eraph's update pack, but also include IE8, .Net, Silverlight, WMP11 (I don't use them, but they are better than the old versions, and I may as well have them) and support silent install of many other programs directly from the disk (Firefox, JRE, 7zip, CDBurnerXP, and many others). I also tend to do quite a bit of tweaking with nLite to get the UI up to max speed.

 

[sechs]

You don't need all that crap. It just goes out of date anyway.

Just slip in the update pack, the browser pack of your choice, WiMP if you really feel the need, and your drivers. Slim down with nLite if it suites you. That's it.

 

[mubs]

I also tend to do quite a bit of tweaking with nLite to get the UI up to max speed.

And what may those be, pray tell?

 

[ddrueding]

The most significant speed improvement is by disabling the right-click "send to" menu, but there are at least two dozen little bits that range from disabling visual transitions to disabling last-accessed timestamps. All are easily available from the usual Google sources. The most important one to do early is the updates. If you don't slipstream your updates, uninstall information for each of them is stored as part of the windows folder, and can lead to significant bloat (>1GB in XP). That is not a welcome thing if you are paying for SSDs.

 

[timwhit]

Most of those uninstall directories can be safely deleted from the Windows directory.

 

[Handruin]

I've deleted those directories on many occasions. Especially when making template machines in vmware. Saves a bunch of space.

 

[ddrueding]

I've had issues in the past when later trying to add/remove programs, or with future updates.

 

[Mercutio]

Companies are gonna skip Win7, too.

That's actually troublesome on a couple of levels; deployments are normally good for hiring/contracting, and rollouts are good for spending on training. Basically businesses are looking at new Windows as a cost.

Win7 doesn't do very much that's actually better than Vista, let alone XP. It's probably a wise move.

On the other hand, I'm kind of hopeful to see a pickup in interest in IT from new releases in Windows and Office, and it doesn't look like we're going to get it.

 

[Fushigi]

I'm going to guess that at some point MS will disallow new downgrade installs and new Software Assurance license installs of XP, which will force new machines to go Win7. That point probably won't hit for a couple of years after Win7 has been released but MS will need to force people's hands eventually.

MS will also do like it does with all deprecated OS releases, and stop doing updates for anything non-security related.

The sad part is that businesses will be driven to upgrade for licensing and compatibility reasons and not because there are any real compelling features. (Yes, Vista and Win7 have some enhancements that I personally like but with the exception of integrated search I can't really say they significantly boost my productivity.)


Thread drift ..

BTW, if there are client apps that for whatever reason won't run under Vista/Win7 then those apps need to be phased out. I would not want to have the ability of my business to run properly be dependent on an OS that's 2+ versions out of date and that relies on an 8+ year old code base. There have already been notebook released that run Vista and for which there are no (or weren't at release) XP drivers. Hardware compatibility will become an issue.

This is a real issue, especially with a number of vertical market apps. My employer has struggled with this in the past and in fact we remain an XP shop by and large. We still have some web apps that do not work right in IE 7 & 8 and anything else that isn't IE 6.

 

[Mercutio]

I think every customer I have has at least one application that runs in DOS, 16-bit Windows or for one reason or another has compatibility issues with Vista.

Every.
Single.
One.

In a lot of cases these are vertical apps specific to the organization. I some cases there was custom development work involved.

It doesn't matter. Most of the time I cannot find the programmer or company responsible for that code and if I can they aren't interested in anything but selling an entirely new app + some kind of overpriced data migration service that in many cases my customers can't afford or don't see a compelling interest to purchase. Their existing systems work. For that matter, Windows XP works.

Software Assurance has HISTORICALLY allowed conversion of licenses as far back in time as organizations felt the need to go. To this day you can convert a (volume license) Vista Business license into NT4 or Windows 3.11 if you really need to do that. I've heard rumblings that Microsoft is planning to drop pre-Vista OSes from Windows7 Business Edition's downgrade options, but I can't believe they'd shoot themselves in the foot like that, as long as customers are buying licenses and are willing to take the risk.

One of the local steel mills still runs an NT4 environment, for what that's worth.

Anyway, Microsoft is the single point of contact for all these incompatible apps. If they really want to improve adoption I really think they need to spend more time working on some kind of compatibility toolkit or an additional NATIVE (not virtualized) abstration layer, or failing that give us all some kind of massive break on Server 2003 + massive numbers of RDP licenses.

I'm sure they do a lot with the builtin compatibility modes but we all know that is not enough.

 

[Handruin]

I'm all for backward compatibility, but only to an extent. At some point, shit needs to move on. The virtualized backward compatibility is fine with me. It's probably a lot easier for them to maintain a virtualized environment than creating some giant toolkit each year that would be sustainable for decades. Modern hardware will probably virtualize the OS faster than the relic machines those people are using to run older OS's anyway.

I understand your frustration with how things were handled. Maybe your newer implementations and solutions should be in Linux. If not Linux, maybe some other platform that isn't prone to these compatibility, upgrade, or licensing issues. Windows does not seem like a stable and maintainable platform for you or your clients.

 

[Mercutio]

I'm under the impression, and I might be wrong, that just about every business anyplace has some line of business app someplace that doesn't work with Vista for one reason or another.

If you work for a Fortune 1000 company, no big deal: You spend hundreds of thousands of dollars replacing the app and potentially millions of dollars between testing, deployment and consultant fees to make sure that it works in your environment.

If you're a 100 - 250 employee company, you look to see if there might be a prepackaged app that plugs in to either your accounting system or a database product you already have, and you spend tens of thousands on licensing, consulting and then a great deal of time bending that app to your needs.

If you're smaller than that, maybe you just don't do anything. Maybe the prepackaged app is out of reach or maybe your needs are so specialized that nobody is making the application you need any more. As the guy who does the computer stuff, the last thing I will ever say is "You'll just have to go back to paper for that", but that seems to be the direction Windows is heading for small organizations.

Am I going to reach a point where I'm maintaining everyone's physical machine + a VM? Are some of my clients going to move to have two PCs on their desk, one just so they can run a modern version of MS Office? Or am I just going to do everything I possibly can to keep the environment they have now running?

 

[Stereodude]

Until MS gives business a compelling reason to upgrade they are very unlikely to do so.

 

[Chewy509]

I'm under the impression, and I might be wrong, that just about every business anyplace has some line of business app someplace that doesn't work with Vista for one reason or another.

What about living in a country, that when government departments issue software plugins (for tax, health system, etc) that all require versions of software known NOT to work on Vista, eg old versions of Java, old versions of various libraries/toolkits, etc.

And the fact that ISVs use this additions to integrate their software with government systems, it's hard to tell the government to get off their backsides to update their components so the ISVs can start supporting Vista!