Windows *Vista*

LiamC

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Thanks Merc, Buck. I asked the question after Tony mentioning "activation"—hack, gag, spit—and after being at a Sun workshop (server consolidation) last week where it appeared to work quite well.

BTW, can any Joe purchase XP Corporate edition? That doesn't need activation—hack, gag, spit.
 

Mercutio

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For a time, VLK (activation-less) licenses for XP Pro were available with purchase of as few as five copies of Windows. That policy has been rescinded and now the only way to get a VLK is to to be in one of maybe five enterprise licensing programs (Select, Certified Partner, Gold Certified Partner etc).

XP will supposedly be even more strict; the only activation-free discs that will be pressed and distributed (to members of enterprise licensing programs) will be upgrade discs. People who have access to Microsoft Subscriber downloads will be able to get VLK discs, but of course, whether or not they have a valid keycode is another matter entirely.
 

Buck

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One issue that I have come across with OpenOffice Writer is mail merge. I haven't been able to make this feature work with a database created in Access. I was hoping that I could open the two files in their respective OO counterparts and voila, but no voila.
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
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OO doesn't really have a functional equivalent to Access, does it? Base is more like a frontend to whatever other database you have, I think.

Anyway, you probably can use ADO between Writer and your mdb file to get the job done if it's really important.
 

Mercutio

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Some fun Vista Press Coverage. Ouch. And then there's this bit about MS rewriting 60% of the existing code for Vista.

I think the phrase "Train Wreck" is appropriate at this point.

I'm giving up on my Vista experiment for now. There are just too many things I can't do from Vista. Explorer crashes too much, media functionality is near zero - Vista rejects my big codec pack and Nero and PowerDVD won't install either. Media Player crashes if you try to set it up with anything but the default options (default player for everything, download DRM crap automatically etc etc). There's no sound driver at all for my hardware. Most of all I can't stand having to deal with having to grant permission for every little thing the OS does.
 

Buck

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As strange as this may seem to some, I do like Windows XP. I like the GUI and its interoperability with a wide variety of hardware (much better than Windows 2000). Nonetheless, the ancillary applications that come along with Windows XP are admittedly poor -- such as IE and OLE. Yet, many of my customers insist on using these programs, and so I help them along. Recently, I had a customer that made me proud. She is an elderly lady that uses her system for surfing the web and email; nothing else. She ruined her Windows install by roaming the world wide web without virus protection or spyware protection.

This is a 1 GHz Dell system from her son-in-law. It had Windows XP, but the install CD was no where to be found. So, I sold a new copy of XP and charged two hours for the following:
Install XP SP2 & run the updates
Hide IE and install Opera
Remove OLE and install Thunderbird
Install Ad-aware, Spybot & Spywareblaster
Install NOD32
Install OpenOffice
She is very happy. The change in software hasn't even phased her! Alas, I wish more customers were like her.
 

Will Rickards

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Be careful when you abbreviate outlook express as OLE. That is the abbreviation for Object Linking and Embedding and is commonly associated with COM - Component Object Model.
 

Bozo

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I agree with Merc. Vista needs a lot of work. On a clean install it uses over 400Meg of ram with no programs running, just the desktop. ( on a 1GB machine.)
And constantly having to 'approve' a program, app, or utility to run gets old real fast. Even the ones installed by the OS.
And, they have pretty much doubled the number of menus/tabs/popups to get to anything, compared to XP or Win2K.

Bozo :mrgrn:
 

Bozo

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He left out some remarkable screwups in Vista. Repair for one.
In XP Pro and Win2K you could boot from the CD, and after agreeing to EULA, do a repair of the OS without hosing your programs and settings. That option in gone in Vista.
The only repair option now is System Restore. It can be run from the DVD, but if you have some corrupted files on the hard drive, you're screwed. There is no way to get known good files from the DVD to the hard drive (that I have found in 6 or 8 attempts) Well, you can format and re-install. :roll:

Bozo :mrgrn:
 

Howell

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Microsoft has a long history in usability research. Either these guys have been told to take a hike or there is something else going on.

I think it is plausible that some of these usability problems (not underlying core problems) have been presented to the world on purpose. If you are going to mimic functions from other OSs you can't just do a direct copy. You have to take a stab at it and work out the bugs.

That is to say some of this is an effort to avoid future lawsuits.
 

Will Rickards

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Howell you're going off the deep end with conspiracy theory there.
No programmer worth their salt would purposely implement something ass-backwards. And I believe MS programmers are worth their salt.

Usability research takes time. I doubt they did usability testing on every vista feature.
 

Howell

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Will Rickards said:
No programmer worth their salt would purposely implement something ass-backwards. And I believe MS programmers are worth their salt.

Bah, MS is run by lawyers. :D
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
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The Vista Upgrade Advisor says my x2/4600, x850, 3GB system needs a better video card to be fully-Vista ready but that the right version of Vista for my needs is "Vista Home Basic Edition."
 

ddrueding

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Mercutio said:
The Vista Upgrade Advisor says my x2/4600, x850, 3GB system needs a better video card to be fully-Vista ready but that the right version of Vista for my needs is "Vista Home Basic Edition."

I'd suspect the reason it told you that is that you're video card doesn't have TV-in/out. The same issue it gave me. Of course, it did say Ultimate was the right one for me.
 

sechs

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All of these different editions are a load of baloney. Much like 8MB (and now 16MB) drive caches, this is charging the end-user a lot for something that costs them very little.
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
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The story as I understand it, is that everyone gets Home Basic (or Pro Basic) when they get their PC, and the "upgrade" versions will require payment and online activation from Microsoft.

They're talking about requiring activation before Aero becomes activated.

I cannot think of one compelling technology in Vista at the moment, one reason to install it.

Um... the Windows Calendar app is kind of nice, maybe.
 

Bozo

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In my testing I have not seen one reason to install Vista. The learning curve is so steep you might as well install Linux and save the $$$$
An IT department nightmare.

Bozo :mrgrn:
 

sechs

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Mercutio said:
They're talking about requiring activation before Aero becomes activated.

And I thought that they wanted people to adopt the new interface....
 

cquinn

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Mercutio said:
The story as I understand it, is that everyone gets Home Basic (or Pro Basic) when they get their PC, and the "upgrade" versions will require payment and online activation from Microsoft.

That would depend on what type of machine is being purchased, and whether the features of that machine require a different SKU for its
installation. Media Center and Tablet PC for instance would require
installation of Vista Premium.

They're talking about requiring activation before Aero becomes activated.

Activation can be delayed at install, with Aero coming up even before
Windows is activated (on supported hardware). Windows Classic mode
(the gray Start Button) can still be enabled for those that choose it.

I cannot think of one compelling technology in Vista at the moment, one reason to install it.

That may be because they require Nvidia video cards to run on :)

There are many included or improved ideas in Vista that seem like they
are finally including features that have been provided by third party apps
all along for XP. And a few changes that make room for the development of a whole new set of third party apps going forward.

I'd say its a much needed update at the very least for MS to keep up with technologies that they should have been looking to support a few years
back.

I know some IT guys who rather like the idea of some of the new deployment and group policy features being included.

Um... the Windows Calendar app is kind of nice, maybe.

There is some hope for improvement in storage support as well.
 

Bozo

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The ability to restore a hosed system has been severly limited.
The boot from CD and do a complete OS overwrite with good files from the CD (and not lose your installed programs and settings) has been eliminated.
Restoring a hosed system is now a crap shoot.

Bozo :mrgrn:
 

Bozo

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A personal view from yours truely:

Things that still don't work right or are fubared: search, networking, sharing, defrag, repair/restore, indexing, admin rights, login, user permissions, dual boot management....and some others that don't come to mind at the moment.

If you code for Windows, you will have a chance to make a fortune. Small utilities to do in a GUI things that MS has eliminated or moved to the command prompt. Programs to give OS control back to the user instead of MS.
You could also write books on how to do things in Vista that have been burried by countless menus. Or how to shut off everthing that is running by default so your 4GHz conroe (or dual core AMD X2 whatever), 4GB memory, RAID 0 Cheetah system moves faster than a Pentium Pro with 64 Meg of RAM.

The really sad part: It appears MS has taken the stand 'what you see is what gets shipped'

And you thought Millinium was bad.....

Bozo :mrgrn:
 

Mercutio

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The industry rags are pretty much Microsoft's bitches regardless; one of the reasons why sites like the Register and the Inquirer are so damned nice to have around is that they don't report on that kind of fluffy crap. Granted, sometimes they're completely wrong, but so are the trade magazines.
 

Adcadet

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When WinXP was getting ready to ship I thought seriously about shifting to Linux. It didn't happen, mostly because I'm too lazy and I wanted to run some PC games. Lesser reasons included a need to easily run Word, Excel, Access, and a plug-in for Real Player that would let me listen to lectures at twice the speed.

Now that Vista is coming, I'm facing almost the exact same situation, only to a lesser extent. MY PC gaming is minor, OpenOffice has made great improvements from what I can tell, I don't need Real Player anymore, and I only need to run Access in my research office, where they provide a Windows machine.
 

Bozo

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Well, Vista is a lot different than XP. XP looked and worked like previous MS operating systems. (as far as the user is concerned). An example: In XP if you wanted to change the desktop, you would right click on the desktop and select 'Properties' The you would be presented with a window with a bunch of tabs. Click the tab, make your changes. In Vista, you right click the desktop and select Personalize. Then you are presented with a menu window. There you might select Backround. This opens another window with selections on it and posibly more links to more windows. When you are done, you back out to the 'main' menu window and select something else to change, open more windows, then back out to the main window. Repeat this for everything you used to do with a few tabs. Instead of 5 minutes to set up your desktop, it now takes 20 minutes.
MS has decided that the user can no longer have complete control of their system. You can't turn off Hibernate (easily) even if you are running on a desktop machine. Defrag is set to run automatically. You can drill through a few menus and shut this off though. The 'Administrator' account is disabled, and on some versions almost imposible to enable.
In MS's quest to be more like Linux, the command prompt has become more prevelant. Point: Vista come with a backup utility built in. It can make a backup of the system without rebooting. Ala-Acronis. But it cannot send the backup accross a network. Unless, you know how to do it via the command prompt. The command prompt is the only way to disable Hibernate too. The command prompt is used to enable the Administrator account, and to set up user accounts.
Also, to try and be like Linux, if you click on something that needs 'Elevated Privleges' a window will pop up (User Account Control) with a warning about using the program/app. For now. Eventually you will have to log on as administrator and have the correct password to continue. Just like Linux.
As far as upgrading from one version to the next: it's reasonably easy ( but a little buggy at the moment) If your computer came with Home Basic, and you want to move up to Ultimate, you buy the upgrade lcense, and get a new CD key. Put the Vista DVD in you machine, choose update, punch in the new CD key and let it do it's thing.
Then there is all the stuff MS has FUBARed. Windows Explorer is worthless and complicated. The general consenses is you will need a third party app for file management.
Search is a joke. It can't find anything, and indexing can take three days or more. It is so complicated to use, most people will use Google search or some other third party app. (And MS refuses to reinstall XP search)
The Boot menu (boot.ini is history) can only be changed via the command prompt. There is already a third party app out to do this. This is more for making changes to dual boot systems.
Vista System Restore works occasionally. It will corrupt XP System Restore points on a dual boot system and vice-versa.
Connecting to a computer on a network takes forever. And it appears Vista is constantly polling network computers for something??? Maybe that will be fixed.
Vista Glass desktop works right out of the box, if you system has the horsepower to run it. No activation needed. (for now???)
I have yet to figure out what good is the "Sidebar" You can add Gadgets or some sort of nonsense to this thing. I Guess it's a MAC thing.
The Shutdown button does not shutdown the computer. It puts it to Sleep. And it's a pain in the ass to fix.

In a couple months, MS will release SP2 for XP 64bit. This is the MS operating system to have. Fast, stable and easy to use.

Bozo :joker:
 

mubs

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Thanks to all the good feedback in this thread, I'll pass on Vista. It'll be XPP (32-bit) for me. Much to many people's amusement (especially a guy called Tony :-D), I am only now switching from W2k to XP, having built my first new m/c in 5+ years for it. Next stop will be a *nix of some kind. The inexorable cyclical nature of the universe has caught up with Redmond. BG should have gotten out a couple of years ago. The timing would have been perfect.
 

sechs

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Why do we have to wait so long for Microsoft to properly copy the best elements of the MacOS?
 

Tannin

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Might be a long, long time before I run Vista, by the sound of things. My current OS lineup is:
Win 2000 - 4 machines (all Athlon XP 2500s)
Linux - 3 machines (Smoothwalls, nothing over 200MHz)
OS/2 - 1 machine (Athlon XP 2500)
XP Pro - 1 machine (Pentium M 1800)

No real plans to change at present, though I might add a second OS/2 machine at some stage.
 
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