AMD to crap on customers, Q1 06

Mercutio

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Remember how Socket 754 was the platform that was going to be orphaned by AMD's long term support for Socket 939?

Um... yeah. Turns out, early next year, the high end mainstream AMD chips will be living in a happy new 1207-pin package, along with a DDR2 memory controller.

I'm sure there's someone out there who makes DDR2, who is absolutely thrilled by this.

Personally, I think it's rather disappointing that AMD. The only up-side is that I'm sure by January Intel will have released three new processor lines, two of which are logically incompatible with the current LGA775, and a third which comes in an innovating suppository-based package.
 

Pradeep

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From what I was reading, some of those extra pins will be used for an integrated PCI-Express controller.

Socket 939 still has lasted longer than anything Intel ever dreamed of putting out.
 

Will Rickards

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Wasn't there a thread recently about the death of socket A. I don't think we'll see any more sockets with longevity like that. With the processors getting more and more cores, can they use the same socket?
 

Mercutio

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Where are our mods? Tony said a bad word and I want it expurgated!

IMO there's no reason - and never has been a reason - to avoid 754. Sempron chips are nice, and the Athlon 64 is the same processor no matter how many pins it has.
 

Tannin

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So, how many stupid new sockets did C*rix inflict on the world?

Also, what was the net effect of the entry of Cyrix into the marketplace. Phrase your answer in terms of market forces, competition, effect on overall industry price and performance benchmarks, and value delivered to the end user.
 

Mercutio

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Value delivered to the end user was in effect negative. The C*rix 6x86 products are among the worst computing devices I've ever seen installed in a computer. They overheated constantly and behaved poorly when you could get them to run at all. Bad, terrible hardware for that time.

Pretty much, I object to C*rix for much the same reasons I object to nvidia nowadays.

My experience was C*rix was literally that 1. Someone would buy a C*rix chip because some liar told them that it was just as fast as Intel but only cost 66% of whatever Intel's chip did. 2. That person would take it home, use it for about an hour, and it would do something flakey and/or stupid. 3. That person would call a repair guy (me). 4. I'd look at the system, check the hard drive, reload Windows etc... and the computer would still act like it'd just fallen out of someone's ass. 5. I'd put in an AMD or Intel chip - all the while listening to someone who THOUGHT they were getting a bargain on a C*rix chip bitch about the extra cost... 6. Their problems would go away. 7. I would be thanked for my mad techie skillz.

In other words: Someone who bought a C*rix processor would be out the extra $150 it cost to buy something that actually worked. C*rix probably cause AMD to sell more chips than any of AMd's sales reps.
 

Buck

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My experience with C*rix is very limited, but I have built machines around the PR200 chip and I was quite happy with them -- no problems, no flakiness, no heat issues. The only thing that was strange at the time was the performance rating, but now it's becoming the norm. C*rix was way ahead of their time. :D
 

Tannin

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What an extraordinary load of ignorant (insert other dirty word used in this thread already) from a person who is normally so wonderfully well-informed.

Merc, it's way past time you learned a little bit about Cyrix chips, and substituted some facts for blind prejudice. Seriously. You are so far off base with that post that you're standing somewhere outside the ballpark and across the street.

Installed competently, almost every one of the of the Cyrix CPUs functioned as perfectly as any other CPU.

Let's deal with the worst ones first, shall we? The MX-266, and a small number of variants of the more common chips (the 75 and 83MHz versions of the MX-233 are examples). These few examples were indeed poor performers. Just as poor and just as unreliable, in fact, as some of the other dud CPUs, such as the Intel 486-50, Pentium 66, Pentium III 600 Katmai, and Pentium III 1133, or the AMD 486DX-40, 486DX-80, and K6/2-550. Each of these was problematic. The worst of the lot was probably the 486-50 (an Intel part) but none of them was particularly worth having.

Now, let's move on to the meat of your phobia: heat. The main reason some poorly-educated people used to think that Cyrix chips ran hot was simple incompetence. You would not believe how many third-party Cyrix-based systems we used to get come in with problems all stemming to one simple cause: pig-ignorant retailers who set them to the wrong voltage. Most Cyrix CPUs in the 100 to 166MHx class were designed to run at 3.3v, and worked just fine like that. A whole heap of morons used to just leave the default voltage jumpers on the motherboard alone because they didn't know what they were there for, with the result that all their Cyrix systems were running close to 10% over-voltage. Of course the chip would run hot if you treated it like that. So will any other chip.

Even after people started getting the voltage right (the Pentium MMX helped here, because you had the set the voltage jumpers for that chip too - even some of the thickheads started to learn a little bit about their trade at that point) a lot of shops used the wrong sort of heatsink/fan. They bought fans suited to the OEM (tray version) Pentium, and then tried to fit it to the Cyrix parts, which were a different shape. Cyrix responded by bundling an excellent HSF with their chips, IBM didn't bother. Any good retailer, however, was aware of this (it was no secret after all) and took sensible care to use the right part for the right job.

Thirdly, there was the matter of support components. Because Cyrix CPUs were such outstanding value, they became very popular with the bottom-of-the-market places, who proceeded to build systems with perfectly good Cyrix CPUs (because they were cheap) but ruin them with C-grade RAM, PC-Chips motherboards, and all the other usual nastiness. The problems systems had were (in the main) nothing whatever to do with the Cyrix CPU, they were caused by using a cheap motherboard with crappy RAM and an incorrect HSF, but ignorant morons in general, and quite a few otherwise well-educated people who should have known better, rushed in to blame the CPU.

If you took the trouble to build a Cyrix-based system with the same care, the same product knowledge, and the same quality of components that you put into an AMD or Intel-based system, you would up with a system that was equally reliable, a little bit cheaper, and (for most but not all purposes) quite a lot faster. During the 100 to 200MHz period, Cyrix were simply the best there was.

Notice that I said "the same quality of components", not "the exact same components". I mentioned cooling already. Some motherboards and motherboard chipsets worked great with Intel CPUs and sluggishly with Cyrix ones (the Intel HX is a prime example); with other ones the reverse obtained (VIA 580-VP is an example), with others again it didn't seem to matter either way. Many an Intel-coddled baby plugged a 6x86-166 into an HX mainboard (because he already "knew" that the HX was "the best", and didn't stop to consider the fact that he'd made that judgement using an entirely different CPU design), measured the performance, and concluded that he had "a slow chip". In fact, of course, he had a poorly chosen CPU and chipset combination. Put the HX with a Pentium and it would fly. Put the Pentium on a VIA board and it went slower. But put the VIA chipset together with the Cyrix chip (i.e., build your system with matched as opposed to mis-matched components) and you got a seriously fast result. (I still have benchmark figures for a lot of this lying around somewhere. The differences were quite substantial.)

I don't begrudge you your $150, but those customers of yours got ripped off. If you had known this part of your trade as well as you know most other parts of it, you would have been able to diagnose the actual cause of the problems brought to you (probably incorrect voltage or wrong HSF 75% of the time, running a motherboard chipset out of spec in the other 25% of cases) and fix it for more like $30.

No matter, it's all water under the bridge now.

But make no mistake: it was Cyrix who ushered in the price-performance revolution late last decade, and the Cyrix legacy that continues to provide you, me, and every other PC user with cheaper, faster systems than we would otherwise have the benefit of.

The directors of National Semiconductor, by the way, should have been shot for gross incompetence. They truly had the Novell touch.
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
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Tannin, are you suggesting that I didn't know the correct voltage, or how to set the correct voltage, for CPUs made in that period?

That's simply insulting.

I stand by my valuation. They sucked. They were slow. They were flakey. They got too hot. In the couple years that those chips were around I probably replaced two or three dozen of them. I distinctly remember experimenting with different fans and heatsinks for them. Nothing helped. Nothing worked.

If you had the fantastic luck to find some unholy combination of motherboard, HSF and C*rix chip that actually worked, good for you. I certainly couldn't.

On the other hand, I haven't replaced an nvidia video card recently. I can't decide if that's because ATIs are more common or if the various OEMs have finally started putting decent fans on them.
 

mubs

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Sorry to be getting back on topic again. Maybe it would be wise of me then to 'ang on to me sturdy slot-1/P3-800 machine for another year and go straight to socket 1207? :mrgrn: (in the background: "Stop the world and let me off....I'm tired of going round 'n' round...")
 

Buck

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ddrueding said:
Slot-1/A - Now there is an architecture worth replacing!

From one perspective, yes -- it had inherent limitations due to the fancy architecture that would inevitably end its life. But the same could be said of all CPU designs, possibly not as resounding as Slot1/2. Nonetheless, the performance was excellent, especially once it matured to the Coppermine core. I also thought that the assembly of those system was easy. I still have two Slot 1 machines sitting on the shelf. They work perfectly, I just don't have a use for them.

Now, if you are emphasizing architecture worth replacing, especially one related to Slot 1 systems, you should mention RDRAM . . . . . Did you feel that? Those were goose bumps on the back of the neck. Sort of that body-shutdown, internal-organ-expanding feeling you get just before you vomit.
 

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It required too much pression on the motherboard (25lbs equivalent) to my taste. I always worried that I could damage the board each and every time I inserted one.
 

Buck

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Now, Slot A was interesting, it certainly had some nice characteristics that improved on the Socket 7 design, but it didn't really reach maturity until it swtiched back and ushered in the Socket A. (Small moment of silence for the Socket A <sniffle> . . . . . . .)
 

Buck

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CougTek said:
It required too much pression on the motherboard (25lbs equivalent) to my taste. I always worried that I could damage the board each and every time I inserted one.

You weren't supposed to use a hammer. :mrgrn:
 

Mercutio

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Buck said:
Did you feel that? Those were goose bumps on the back of the neck. Sort of that body-shutdown, internal-organ-expanding feeling you get just before you vomit.

That was an unusually passsionate description from Buck. Almost as if written by an expert. :)

Aren't you supposed to be passed out?
 

Buck

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That was only for about half an hour. I started to get this Sahara dry thing happening in my mouth and it woke me up. I figured I should find something cool and refreshing to quench this awful <yawn> feeling.
 

Will Rickards

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mubs said:
Sorry to be getting back on topic again. Maybe it would be wise of me then to 'ang on to me sturdy slot-1/P3-800 machine for another year and go straight to socket 1207? :mrgrn: (in the background: "Stop the world and let me off....I'm tired of going round 'n' round...")

Is that an extreme song or what?
I'm in the same boat: P3-667 slot 1.
Thing is I bought it after they came out with the socket ones. And have been kicking myself ever since. Any CPU upgrade is just too expensive to be worth it on this board. Anyway, maybe it worked out for the better, upgrading the CPU would've been mostly a waste of money.

I'm not going to wait for socket 1207. Is DDR2 that much faster?
 

Groltz

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Will Rickards said:
I'm not going to wait for socket 1207.

Me either.

I am sick to death of waiting on building a faster gaming/AIO machine. Over the next month or so I'm digging my heels in and building one.
 

Bartender

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Will Rickards said:
Is DDR2 that much faster?

Good question Will. I had a recent discussion with a technician at the bar, and after researching the situation it seems that DDR2 is indeed better technology in regards to performance, but only after we reach and pass a high FSB. So, the original 400MHz incantations were equivalent to the original . . . uh, I can't say it after Buck's remark . . . you know, that high latency expensive stuff that Intel praised and then painfully passed like a kidney stone? Anyway, I don't see DDR2 meeting the same fate: 1) because we're already reaching the appropriate FSB where the technology begins to glow (533MHz, 667MHz will be better), and 2) It's not being pushed by a marauding band of litigation lawyers. At least that's my take from the stuff people tell be at the bar. I don't normally meddle in the technolgy stuff, but this switch from DDR to DDR2 seems pretty important.
 

Mercutio

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At one time there was talk of AMD bypassing DDR2 completely for DDR3. I'd like to know what happened to that idea.

Groltz, I will say that I really like my X700 Pro for a gaming card that's not utterly outrageous.
 

ddrueding

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My complaints about the slot architecture are focused on the physical design rather than the cores they supported. Most notably the tendancy for the socket itself to pull clear of the motherboard. Though it would be interesting to see what heatpipe-based coolers could be devised around the slot CPUs...
 

Groltz

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@Merc,

Well, I have an X800-XT (agp) already.

Since the next machine I build will incorporate a motherboard with a PCI Express x16 video card slot, it looks like I'll be auctioning it off.

I'll be taking a hard look at the ATI R520-generation cards once they get released.
 

LiamC

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Remember how Socket 754 was the platform that was going to be orphaned by AMD's long term support for Socket 939?

Um... yeah. Turns out, early next year, the high end mainstream AMD chips will be living in a happy new 1207-pin package, along with a DDR2 memory controller.

Socket M2 is 940 pins and the successor to S939. It includes integrated DDR2 controller in place of DDR. Socket M2 is not pin-compatible with current Opteron (S940).

Socket F or whatever it is called these days is 1207 pins and is rumoured to include DDR2 and on-chip PCI-e. This is the Opteron/server socket.

As for DDR2, at 667MHz, you get latency comparable to DDR400 and 50% more bandwidth. At 800MHz, you getter much better latency than DDR400 and twice the badwidth. It would be like a current Athlon 64 with quad-channel memory. This may not mean much for current Athlon 64's, but it makes an awful lot of sense for X2's... Lucasfilm called and want their render farm back!


As for S1207, think quad channels of DDR-2 and three or four cores per die. :lol:
 

iGary

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TOPIC: Splash: What are you using for new systems at work?

POSTED: Mon Aug 18, 2003
11:57 pm

Santilli said:
What are the probabilities of a new version of the Xeon, and how high do you think the Xeon chip can be scaled,before Intel changes the pin design for the chip and mobo?

Explorer said:
...And just extrapolating a bit here: I suspect that the current Opteron processors are fast approaching half life, meaning that they will be yesterday's news around about May or June of 2004. Somewhere around then or a little later, a new Opteron will have to appear, an Opteron that supports DDR2 memory. So, when those show up, you'll have to get a whole new mobo for the new processor and the new memory that it supports.


Wow, I was almost exactly ONE year off on my prediction. 8)


 

tazwegion

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Mercutio said:
I stand by my valuation. They sucked. They were slow. They were flakey. They got too hot. In the couple years that those chips were around I probably replaced two or three dozen of them. I distinctly remember experimenting with different fans and heatsinks for them. Nothing helped. Nothing worked.

If you had the fantastic luck to find some unholy combination of motherboard, HSF and C*rix chip that actually worked, good for you. I certainly couldn't.

On the other hand, I haven't replaced an nvidia video card recently. I can't decide if that's because ATIs are more common or if the various OEMs have finally started putting decent fans on them.


Other than the FIC boards, the GA-586TX worked wonderfully with an MII I once owned, and it is now runing flawlessly in my nieces' PC ;)

As for heat... it's Vcore was 2.9v my K62's get nasty @ 2.4+, hence my preference for the use of Skt. A heatsinks & AS5 on everything SS7 :)

I adore my Cyrix's second only to the mighty K62's :p

If you want to bag a processor and call it 'flaky'... what about that floating point issue the early Pentiums had?
 

Mercutio

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The difference is, Intel replaced their bad chips. As I recall, they used the bad P5-60 to 90MHz chips to pave the driveway around their corporate HQ.
 

Tannin

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That was because of the infamous Pentium floating point bug. Cyrix never had a bug of that magnitude, nor were they forced to recall and replace a product because it outright got its sums wrong. That's a gross distortion of history you just attempted there, Merc. Yes another one.
 

time

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mubs said:
Maybe it would be wise of me then to 'ang on to me sturdy slot-1/P3-800 machine for another year and go straight to socket 1207?
I notice that Mubs hasn't yet had an answer to this, so here goes:


No.

If you are unhappy with your magnificent P3-800, Socket 939/PCI-e is a very, very good solution that is unlikely to be significantly bettered in the next couple of years - IMHO.
 

tazwegion

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AFAIK the 75Mhz chip was a problem too... and either way it still doesn't negate the fact that Intel had (has?) a poor QA system, and that incident @ the time would've been equivalent to GMH recalling all their vehicles because they forgot to place an electronics module in the distributor :p :lol: :roll:

BTW if you're thinking I'm an AMD/Cyrix fanboy? the truth is I also own CeleronA's and for their sheer mathematical prowess (better than their PII brethren) I just love them to bits too, it's not the size of the cache that matters it's the speed! LMAO :lol:

k63fpu3or.gif


Viva La Retro! :mrgrn:
 
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