Ancient Computer; Modern Browser, Security software

[Mercutio]

Does anyone have any strong feelings about how to deal with old computers and modern software? I'm talking about 10 year old hardware, the sort of thing that might've been upgraded to XP when XP first came out.

I'm noticing at this point that even something like Spybot Search and Destroy is too heavyweight for these systems, let alone any kind of resident antivirus software, but those machines are still out there and they're still working, so we still have to deal with them.

Maybe it's just a sign of the times, but I'm seeing a lot of these systems lately, especially ancient notebooks.

 

[ddrueding]

Even the shop workers and janitor understand that spending $500 every 5 years is not unreasonable. For the really old hardware, I won't connect it to the internet. I'll stick XP and an old copy of Quickbooks or other on it, but that is it.

 

[Sol]

Xubuntu, Fluxbuntu, or Ubuntu with enlightenment? Modern, relatively lightweight and will happily run a browser, email client and maybe some light word processing.

If you need Windows for something then that implies that you actually need to do something. You don't want to do something you really need to do on a machine too old to run an antivirus app...

I thought about suggesting Windows without network access... But you don't do anything you don't really need to do without Internet access. (Unless you're addicted to solitaire or minesweeper in which case buy a Nintendo DS or something)

 

[CougTek]

If you're doing a call at the customer's office, power down the computer. When no one's looking, unfold a clip and stick it between two pins of the 20 pins ATX connector on the motherboard. Wait for the customer to comeback and power up the computer.

When the system fails to boot up and the smell of burned plastic fills the room, tell him it's time to upgrade, I guess.

 

[Mercutio]

Something I'm seeing right now is crappy old machines that are getting pulled out of whatever closet or basement that are being pressed in to service, or home users deciding to tough it out with their ancient system for another year.

Yes, this probably is related to the current economic climate.

I'd love to say "put SuSE on it", but that's not going to fly a lot of the time.

 

[Santilli]

Does anyone have any strong feelings about how to deal with old computers and modern software? I'm talking about 10 year old hardware, the sort of thing that might've been upgraded to XP when XP first came out.

I'm noticing at this point that even something like Spybot Search and Destroy is too heavyweight for these systems, let alone any kind of resident antivirus software, but those machines are still out there and they're still working, so we still have to deal with them.

Maybe it's just a sign of the times, but I'm seeing a lot of these systems lately, especially ancient notebooks.

Well, I've got 4 boxes in this house sort of fit in that category. I try and find a deal on Vertex Turbos, and put a 32 gig in each one I care about. If it's IDE, I ordered, but haven't got, one of those SSD's Stinker suggested. I then use the old drive as a D drive, and data backup. On the Girl's computer in the other room, I installed an SSD, but retained the Velociraptor as a D drive, with the full operating system intact.

You suggested AVAST, and, that seems to work reasonably well on my server box.

Thanks to David, I now have Windows 7 Ultimate on the Server box, 32 bit version, and, it works great. Using Vuze, Avast, Peerblock can take up to 50% of the processors, but, it's fine for doing that, 24/7.

I've found there are some old games, and programs that won't run on 7, or modern hardware. It's nice to have the machines around for that reason.

Frankly, there are some people who shouldn't have computers, or, should have old, simple computers.

If they won't spend any money on hardware, a clean install of XP 32 bit is an excellent idea.

My strong feeling is that there is a place for old computers, and, I object to the forced planned technical obsolescence by MSFT, Intel, etc. While you might object to the lack of ability to run new software, that does not mean the computer can't be used for what that person uses it for.

Also, it's really nice to be able to use software on multiple machines, vs. the single machine, activation stuff we have now.

Sam, you've mentioned a number of times that your 920 is WAY over the top, as far as what our current computer processing needs are.

I was just thinking that a number of the tasks, and software I use don't use that processing power. A number of programs I use, AnyDVD, etc. are the same speed on my new machine as on the 11 year old server.

I'm really not convinced that 7 is all that much better then XP Pro, or 2003 Server.
Ubuntu certainly flys in emulation on this computer. Does make me wonder what it would be like on some old hardware, but, what about driver problems?

 

[Santilli]

I really wonder if we actually need anti-virus software, at least in it's current status, for most people?

I remember one kid at school managing to totally screw up his machine, and, mine by going to music sites and downloading all kinds of spyware. If' I'd cranked up the security settings to high on IE, could he have put all that stuff on that computer? Or, if the only browser avaliable to users is Firefox?

In other words, aren't there other ways to prevent spyware, rather then using such programs? And, if they do screwup, and the machine is infected, they can pay you to do a clean install, and reformat...

 

[ddrueding]

The last three machines I've cleaned didn't have antivirus. I'd say it certainly helps.

 

[udaman]

Does anyone have any strong feelings about how to deal with old computers and modern software? I'm talking about 10 year old hardware, the sort of thing that might've been upgraded to XP when XP first came out.

I'm noticing at this point that even something like Spybot Search and Destroy is too heavyweight for these systems, let alone any kind of resident antivirus software, but those machines are still out there and they're still working, so we still have to deal with them.

Maybe it's just a sign of the times, but I'm seeing a lot of these systems lately, especially ancient notebooks.

U are speaking of people flat broke...10yrs old is really too old in most cases? Assume all of them have USB ports/peripherals on these old systems. Doing them favors 4 free then?

Tell them it's time to upgrade, even if only to getting tested/used computers. Buy.com lists a Dell D600 refurb for $239

You can get a netbook (should be able to run current AV s/w correct?) for ~$200, or for bigger screen, but refurbished, something like this via Google shopping search:

http://www.consumerdepot.com/products.asp?id=MV-927164D&referer=google

Pent4 @2.8Ghz is more than fast enough, yes?

 

[blakerwry]

One of the problems I see with these Dell/Compaq/HP/Gateway P4 refurbs are bad caps and dust clogged/dead fans. They seem like good deal, but buyer beware. Certainly check under the hood and power up first if at all possible.

To run WindowsXP w/ service packs and modern AV seems to take at least 512MB RAM. I recently replaced an expired install of Avast 4 with MS security essentials and the machine was noticeably slower, with memory and disk taxed just browsing or using office.

I can't hardly imagine using a 5+ year old machine on a daily basis, assuming the machine was middle of the road originally and hasn't been updated since purchase. I have a ~ 6 year old laptop that does fine, but the memory has been updated twice and the disk replaced a year or so ago. Even still, the machine has problems playing newer h264 or flash based videos due to limited CPU power and video offloading capabilities of the on board Intel gfx.

 

[Mercutio]

I have a customer who is still using Windows 2000 systems on a daily basis. Those machines aren't connected to the internet, so they're basically fine, but they're also 10 years old and still being used daily.

My least-favorite customer just hired two people and wanted me to put two 2GHz P4s back into service for them. This is actually what sparked this topic for me. These machines are RAMBUS, have 256MB RAM in them that there's no way I'm going to upgrade, and can't handle standard antivirus. Those systems updated to IE8 thanks to WSUS and the users are complaining it's too heavyweight to be usable on their systems, but Firefox and Chrome are, too (Chrome seems to hit the CPU harder, oddly enough).

 

[MaxBurn]

Nice, I just checked for giggles and newegg doesn't list any RDRAM anymore. That should send a message you would think...

 

[Sol]

If only driver issues weren't likely to be a problem you could load Android on to them. Sure it's still just Linux, but it's a hip new Linux that people may have actually heard of. Plus it's easier to explain, just tell them you can turn the machine in to a giant phone. (If only you could make them in to enormous iPhones then there would be an app for whatever they actually want to do with them...)

Beyond changing the os and maybe re-purposing (They'd make perfectly o.k if slightly power hungry firewall/router boxes or controllers for some industrial hardware), not connecting it to a network, or telling the customer that using them is not a good idea there does not seem to be a "production ready" solution to this problem.

If catastrophic failure is only a minor inconvenience (And there are places where this is the case) then the lack of security software isn't a big deal.

If you just need a lighter browser k-melon looks usable.

 

[Santilli]

Is there anyway to pull the ram out of one, and put it in the other, for a total of 512 MB?

That would give you one useable machine, and the guy would have to come up with something else for the other.

Explain RAM is no longer avaliable, or too expensive.?

As for the browsers: why not just go back to IE 5, stop auto updates, and go from there?

I'm typing this from IE 5, and 2000 PRO, and, it seems there is NO lag written into the OS to give the impression the computers are slower, like with 7.

I do wonder if you might run VMware Player on these machines, and use the OS in VM?
Then you wouldn't have to worry about spyware. I'm using less then 2% of the beast using it right now;-)

 

[ddrueding]

IE5 on 2k is like running around a dark alley with your pants down. Unsustainable is the best word I could think of for it, running a business without the latest updates, patches, and protection is reckless.

 

[timwhit]

IE6 is horrible enough, I can't believe you are actually using IE5.5. Can you even load the Google homepage?

 

[Santilli]

"I do wonder if you might run VMware Player on these machines, and use the OS in VM?
Then you wouldn't have to worry about spyware. I'm using less then 2% of the beast using it right now"

I wonder about how vulnerable you are running in VMWARE?????

Besides, Windows update doesn't seem to work for 2000 Pro anymore, at least not running in VMWARE.

 

[timwhit]

"I do wonder if you might run VMware Player on these machines, and use the OS in VM?
Then you wouldn't have to worry about spyware. I'm using less then 2% of the beast using it right now"

I wonder about how vulnerable you are running in VMWARE?????

Besides, Windows update doesn't seem to work for 2000 Pro anymore, at least not running in VMWARE.

I think that has a lot to do with what you are doing. If you log into your bank account from IE5.5 in VMWare it's just as unsecure as not using VMWare. VMWare is not going to provide any protection against XSS or social engineering attacks.

 

[Santilli]

Install 2000, install VMware Player, Install 2000 again?
Download Service Pack 4, install..???

Wonder which would suck more cpu cycles, VMware Player on old hardware, or, anti-virus software????

 

[Mercutio]

Is there anyway to pull the ram out of one, and put it in the other, for a total of 512 MB?

They need two functional computers. Specifically, they need two that have a licensed copy of Office 2003. The cost of obtaining new hardware plus Windows plus Office is prohibitive for them right now, whereas the existing systems already have licensed software on them.

As for the browsers: why not just go back to IE 5, stop auto updates, and go from there?

That would be tragically bad from a security standpoint. Plus a lot of common sites have dropped support for IE5 and I expect there would be all kinds of issues with page rendering.

 

[fb]

Those systems updated to IE8 thanks to WSUS and the users are complaining it's too heavyweight to be usable on their systems, but Firefox and Chrome are, too (Chrome seems to hit the CPU harder, oddly enough).

Maybe you could try Lynx?

 

[Will Rickards]

They hired two more employees. Unless this is a non-profit and the people are working for free, they probably cost the company way more than new decent machines and software licenses will cost. Compare that with the lost productivity with the slow as snails old computers and I can't understand the math. It will pay them to put in front of these new hires new $500 econo-boxes. Plus donate the old machines and take a tax writeoff or something.

But if they really only have 256MB of ram, that is the issue.
I'd try opera.

 

[Santilli]

They need two functional computers. Specifically, they need two that have a licensed copy of Office 2003. The cost of obtaining new hardware plus Windows plus Office is prohibitive for them right now, whereas the existing systems already have licensed software on them.



That would be tragically bad from a security standpoint. Plus a lot of common sites have dropped support for IE5 and I expect there would be all kinds of issues with page rendering.

You should be able to scrounge around and find some used ram on ebay for not too much money.

What about a hard drive upgrade? Seems to me if you don't have enough ram, it's going to be hitting the hard drive constantly in VM. If so, I suspect one could easily double or triple both access time and throughput with a modern drive.

 

[Santilli]

Can you clean, reformat, and reinstall?

Go through and Nlite em.

I'm not real convinced 2000 can't run on 256 mb of ram, with a decent hard drive.

 

[Santilli]

Also, exactly how slow are these boxes?

I just reduced the VM Ware setting to 256 MB of ram. It seems a bit slower, using Firefox 3.63, but not horrible.

 

[Santilli]

Been screwing around with Opera 10.5, latest version. On 2000 SP4, it goes right to the limit, or over, of 256 MB of ram. Firefox runs around 170 MB of ram.

 

[Santilli]

IE 5 runs around 110 MB of ram, but, won't properly render a number of sites I'm using for testing.

 

[Mercutio]

Can you clean, reformat, and reinstall?

Go through and Nlite em.

I'm not real convinced 2000 can't run on 256 mb of ram, with a decent hard drive.

They don't have licenses for 2000. Nor are RIMMs readily available from any source I'd trust.

 

[Mercutio]

And FYI, Windows 2000 will run on 48MB RAM. It checks for 64MB at install, but it'll run on 48MB.

 

[MaxBurn]

After the reinstall on my parents laptop I was pleasantly surprised how it performed, Dell Inspiron 1150 (Celeron 2.60GHz, 512MB, 40GB). I thought it was going to be a complete dog but default dell XP and firefox was just fine.

Merc, are you assuming that those software licences are OEM and not transferable? The copy of office they have might go either way?

Was also surprised to see RDRAM for sale at a decent selection of places through google shopping, thought that wasn't available at the best places we like to shop.

 

[Santilli]

Sam:
You never really said what OS you are talking about:
"My least-favorite customer just hired two people and wanted me to put two 2GHz P4s back into service for them. This is actually what sparked this topic for me. These machines are RAMBUS, have 256MB RAM in them that there's no way I'm going to upgrade, and can't handle standard antivirus. Those systems updated to IE8 thanks to WSUS and the users are complaining it's too heavyweight to be usable on their systems, but Firefox and Chrome are, too (Chrome seems to hit the CPU harder, oddly enough). "

I gather these are using XP? What service pack?

I just upgraded to IE 6 and now I get the update stuff. Appears 5.0 was the problem.

 

[CougTek]

IE5 on 2k is like running around a dark alley with your pants down.

Considering Greg is close to sixty, I doubt he would be at risk of being raped.

 

[ddrueding]

Considering Greg is close to sixty, I doubt he would be at risk of being raped.

You haven't met him, he's a hottie

(j/k, Greg)

 

[Howell]

Vipre for antivirus
Google says Midori is a lightweight web browser
ATA SSD for RAM substitute; transferable to a new machine.

 

[CougTek]

I receive tons of e-mails from my suppliers with three-years-old lease-return computers with 1Go of RAM, a P4 3GHz and an XP Pro COA for 100$-120$. Those computers are business-class machines from IBM/Lenovo, HP/Compaq or Dell (Optiplex). They tend to be fine and were built to last. The Office licenses are transferable. Would it kill them to spend 240$ plus your time to get two workable computers?

 

[mangyDOG]

"My least-favorite customer"

should be "My ex-customer"

Do you really want to keep a customer that is really that tight? If he can afford to employ two new staff and won't fork out for a couple of decent PCs and software than it is time to terminate your business relationship.
You would be better off using your time finding a new client that understands the concept of "you need to spend money, to make money".

cheers,
mangyDOG

 

[Mercutio]

Do you really want to keep a customer that is really that tight?

I can't stand the guy on a personal level, but there's a social obligation involved so out of all my customers, he's the one guy I couldn't ditch even if I wanted to.

And yes, he really is that tight.

He's not putting money in these machines, either, 10 minute startup time be damned. Installing a PATA SSD has a real labor cost. RAM I'd probably do essentially free if I had some RIMMs, but I don't, and they aren't exactly cheap ($100 for 2x128MB for new modules; RIMMs have to be installed in pairs).

I'll try let the users try K-Meleon (haven't used THAT in years) and Midori, to see if they do any better with those.

 

[udaman]

.

And yes, he really is that tight.

He's not putting money in these machines, either, 10 minute startup time be damned. Installing a PATA SSD has a real labor cost. RAM I'd probably do essentially free if I had some RIMMs, but I don't, and they aren't exactly cheap ($100 for 2x128MB for new modules; RIMMs have to be installed in pairs).

I'll try let the users try K-Meleon (haven't used THAT in years) and Midori, to see if they do any better with those.

Now that the orig. post has been *mostly* vetted

I receive tons of e-mails from my suppliers with three-years-old lease-return computers with 1Go of RAM, a P4 3GHz and an XP Pro COA for 100$-120$. Those computers are business-class machines from IBM/Lenovo, HP/Compaq or Dell (Optiplex). They tend to be fine and were built to last. The Office licenses are transferable. Would it kill them to spend 240$ plus your time to get two workable computers?

^U didn't answer CT's post, $240 for *two* decent computers, ready to roll/rock, nothing much as far as costs on any hardware/software upgrades, all inclusive...only ur time to set them up with proper AV, etc.... there done!

U need to find a way to convince the tight wad, this is the *only* proper way to solve the dilemma. gotta work on your negotiation/compelling argument skillz w/the TW. You are the Xpert, he is not; convince him of the *necessity*.

Make him see the light from his/their perspective. Going to catch a fish, got to think like a fish. On a personal level, don't let him see your thinking of how much of a dick he is, you've got to act like a trust worthy adviser thinking of his best interests.

 

[mubs]

Considering Greg is close to sixty, I doubt he would be at risk of being raped.

I wouldn't be so sure. There are weirdos that rape 80-85 year olds. There was a scare recently in Texas where senior citizens were targeted and raped.

 

[LiamC]

I have been going through this with my Win98SE box (built for old games). IE6 works OKish, Firefox was much the same. Opera works best. Flash was a no no.

I've also built a couple of Tualatin boxes to upgrade people with P!!! era Celerons.
512MB is a minimum, 768MB is much better and that sort of box with (even a 866/933MHz P!!!) runs XP with Avast 5.0 (much better than 4.8 at resource usage) OK. Putting a reasonably modern hard disk in it is key as well (80/160 single/two platter drives).