Another mass build and some hardware thoughts

[Mercutio]

I'm doing my "Teaching Kids how to build computers" classes again this summer. As in years past, this means buying low-end parts by the score.

Here's the system:

Celeron 430 1.8GHz CPU
Intel branded 945-based uATX motherboard (with no PCIe slots, something I didn't notice until after I bought a bunch of them)
1GB Corsair RAM
80GB Seagate 7200.10 AS
20x Optiarc DVD burner
Foxconn uATX case with 300W PSU
Vista Home Premium
HP D2460 Printer
Hanns-G 19" widescreen LCD

The whole setup runs to a total of ~$580.

Anyway, I have at this point taught 122 kids to put these things together. I have 31 more kids to do. I'm thinking that 150 systems is a good number, a number upon which comment may be made.

1. Intel motherboards have STAGGERING reliability. Zero failures, zero defects in the builds to date. Compared to the boards I used last year (Gigabyte and Biostar for AMD-based systems), this is quite surprising. I'm used to seeing about a 4% DOA rate on motherboards.

2. Seagate 7200.10 hard disks are SHIT. I'm talking about a 12% failure rate. None of these drives have had the decency to be DOA. They've all been media error issues. Newegg has been shipping me the drives in Seagate factory cases; this isn't a packing problem, nor is it a bad batch of drives. No single batch has had more than two bad drives in it (though several have had two).

Why stick with Seagate, then? The main reason is Seagate Discwizard, a free OEM version of Acronis TrueImage. This is also the main way that I discover the media errors.

3. The Hanns-G monitors have been excellent for a budget brand. They have glossy screens and DVI, and even though they aren't full-range (16.2M colors instead of 16.7M), they look very good. I'm very pleased with them and frankly the people getting the screens think they've been given premium hardware. Goodness all the way around.

4. Foxconn cases: One PSU failure this year from all the cases. It's a HEC brand power supply. I had another case that was beaten to hell (its power supply, however, worked fine). I called my distributor (the case and Windows are the only thing I didn't buy from Newegg) and they just gave me another one. It's not worth anyone's time to ship them back, apparently.

5. HP D2460 Printer. Here's the thing: I need a CHEAP printer for these classes. I literally CAN'T spend more than $50 on a printer. My options, therefore, are basically Lexmark and HP models. The former $40 HP Printer at least included both Ink Tanks. The CURRENT HP model only includes the color tank. No blank.

Let's repeat that: NO FUCKING BLACK INK.
And then the driver bitches at you every half hour until you install a black cartridge. One that you have to buy. Because it isn't in the box. There's no setting to tell it not to bitch. It's basically an advertisement that you get every half hour to buy HP Ink.

On top of that, since I had one that shipped with a broken cover that I had to send back, I set one up to see how much it would actually print on its single color cartridge. Any guesses?

Well, with full page text coverage (Lorem Ipsum etc), the answer is 46 pages.

That's just disgusting.


More to come.

 

[paugie]

I continue to be impressed, Merc.

What you are doing is (at least in this part of the world) a recipe for white hair/baldness, wrinkles, hypertension and sore vocal cords.

Congratulations!

What, I didn't comment on the hardware?

Doesn't Xerox have a budget laser printer. I know they sell one here. They are cheaper than entry level Samsung laser printers.

 

[ddrueding]

For a $50 budget, you are in pure inkjet crap territory. Even the cheapest lasers start at about five times that.

I am also impressed, Merc. I've done smaller builds and smaller groups, but that is really awesome.

 

[Mercutio]

More thoughts on some hardware I've gotten to play with recently.

Shuttle K45 barebones:
They're $100 shoebox machines based around an i945 motherboard. No slot for an optical drive and no Ice-Q cooling.

Guess what? They're great.

I've built about a dozen of them. Stick something in a 2000-series C2D or less in there and just let them be (methinks Quad Cores should be avoided, given the environment). They make decent servers, great second computers and they can be assembled as a complete system in around five minutes.

Only down side is the fan on the power supply. I know it's just not going to last forever. For $100, I forgive them.

nVidia 9600GT: $150 cards that have roughly the same performance as a 8800GT. Down side? The two that I installed (Asus brand) are loud enough to be audible even at idle. Boo. Also, continuing a fine nVidia tradition (snort), they're extremely warm at idle.

Gigabyte 790FX-based board: If you're still building with AMD systems, it's pretty much the Gigabyte Intel-based DQ6, but for Phenom. My favorite detail: heat sinks on the underside of the board.

I'd like to look at an AMD780G board, but I haven't seen one from a manufacturer I trust. They look great for modest gaming and HTPC applications.

Also, for the first time in about, oh, 10 years, I saw a system with an IRQ conflict a couple weeks ago. Apparently Windows Vista doesn't like AMD690G onboard sound + a Soundblaster Xfi + HDMI audio on a Radeon 3650. I could not resolve the conflict without removing the sound card. I don't know if it's an issue with IRQ steering on that particular board or Soundblaster driver bullshit or what, but I was SHOCKED to see it.

 

[timwhit]

For a $50 budget, you are in pure inkjet crap territory. Even the cheapest lasers start at about five times that.

I am also impressed, Merc. I've done smaller builds and smaller groups, but that is really awesome.

Really?

 

[ddrueding]

Really?

I stand massively corrected. But I'm sure Merc will mention that kids who can't print in color aren't happy kids.

 

[Mercutio]

I'd rather not give them printers at all. $50 more money spent on hardware (actually, more like $70 if they'd let me use Vista Basic rather than Premium) would make those machines DRASTICALLY better instead of being the slugs that they are.

In two years that money won't matter, but I really do regret not being able to give them dual core and 2GB RAM. And foisting a printer that crappy onto them.

 

[Bozo]

Merc, if the printers use the #21 and #22 ink catriges, you can substitute the #54 and #57 and get at least twice the pages out. Last I checked at Wall-Mart, the prices weren't much different.
You can get a dual core Celeron for $49.99, or is that too much?
2GB of Kingston is $39.99.

Bozo :joker:

 

[Mercutio]

You can get a dual core Celeron for $49.99, or is that too much?
2GB of Kingston is $39.99.

I'm within $.23 of my maximum budget on each PC, if that tells you anything.

 

[sdbardwick]

According to HP's website (in the "What's in the box" section) and the pictures on Newegg's product page, those printers should have come with a black cartridge. Might be time to bug Newegg/HP and see who screwed up/is trying to screw the customer.

 

[LunarMist]

How old are the students?

 

[CougTek]

Athlon X2 4800+ AM2
Asus M2N-VM/DVI (GeForce 7050 with DVI output AND PCI-E16X)
1Go DDR2 800MHz Kingston
80GB Seagate SATA hard disk drive
LG GH20NS10 20X SATA DVD burner
In Win EM013 µATX tower with Powerman 350W PSU
Acer X193WB 19 inches widescreen LCD (with DVI IIRC)
Canon MP160 (scan/copy/print) with both color and black ink cartridges
6ft USB printer cable
Windows XP Home OEM (with the CD)
_____________________________________________________________
575,23$ (my cost)

Replace the X2 4800+, Asus motherboard and 800MHz RAM by a dual-core Celery E1200, a GigaByte GA-945GCM-S2c (with PCI-E16X slot) and 667MHz RAM and my cost drops to 543.12$.

And you have a better operating system too.

Prices are lower in the States than they are here.

How can I pack more stuff within 580$ than you can?


P.S. I did not include mouse/keyboard/speakers because it wasn't part of your listing. Add 19.50$ to my quotes if you want to include those.

 

[Mercutio]

The kids are as young as 17 and as old as 20. They're AB Honor roll students who meet a maximum income level and have been accepted to a four year college.

As old as 20? Yes. A lot of the girls are first or second-time parents (most of the boys are, too, but it's not as much of an issue for them), so they've had to take time off of school and therefore delayed graduation that long. In the group I taught today there was actually a girl who had given birth less than a week ago and who had to be taken aside so someone could explain what the giant wet spots on her shirt were.

Yes Coug, there's a keyboard and mouse (Logitech) as well as a thumb drive, USB cable and a tiny allotment for a dialup modem that I wish I could spend on something else.

Vista Premium is specified by the person who does most of the instruction, mostly because of the DVD Creation software, but also because we don't want to be seen as using "old" technology. Apologizing for the sucky OS is part of my classroom presentation.

I went with Intel-branded motherboards this time after having more issues than I wanted in doing this same thing last year. So far, that's worked out for me; I've had no motherboard related issues at all in this year's project.

And I do believe loonies are worth more than dollars are right now (thank you, Mr. President!). That number still seems low to me. Are you factoring in shipping charges at all? Shipping is probably $40 of "empty" cost.

Nice to see that you've dropped by.

 

[Stereodude]

And I do believe loonies are worth more than dollars are right now (thank you, Mr. President!).

Not anymore... The dollar is worth slightly more than the Loony.

 

[CougTek]

There's no shipping because those are the prices I have from local resellers.

Prices here are higher, no matter the value of the CAN$ vs U$. Every time I convert the currency, there's a 5-10% premium this side of the border.

Good luck on your project. Tell the bean counters you'll need more money next year to give a decent class (no matter if it's true or not).

 

[LunarMist]

The kids are as young as 17 and as old as 20. They're AB Honor roll students who meet a maximum income level and have been accepted to a four year college.

As old as 20? Yes. A lot of the girls are first or second-time parents (most of the boys are, too, but it's not as much of an issue for them), so they've had to take time off of school and therefore delayed graduation that long. In the group I taught today there was actually a girl who had given birth less than a week ago and who had to be taken aside so someone could explain what the giant wet spots on her shirt were.

Apparently the concept of honor roll has changed a lot since the 60s-70s.

 

[ddrueding]

Apparently the concept of honor roll has changed a lot since the 60s-70s.

The bar has been lowered a bit, but all As and Bs wasn't something that I managed, so props to them.

 

[Santilli]

More then props. Making it through parenting, keeping yourself going, getting into a 4 year school, and, I suspect that the students Merc has have to deal with similar issues to the kids I deal with, well, it's bloody AMAZING that they could get through.

 

[Stereodude]

I thought the trick was to always go over budget and say you're sorry later. If you finish up under budget they'll just cut it for next year. If you go over they might increase it next year.

 

[Mercutio]

I thought the trick was to always go over budget and say you're sorry later. If you finish up under budget they'll just cut it for next year. If you go over they might increase it next year.

This is a case where I have a hard limit in the form of the limit of my corporate credit card. That, and since the state is ultimately paying, we have to wait on their billing and accounting process.

It'd be nice, thuogh.

 

[paugie]

More then props. Making it through parenting, keeping yourself going, getting into a 4 year school, and, I suspect that the students Merc has have to deal with similar issues to the kids I deal with, well, it's bloody AMAZING that they could get through.

This is truly amazing. What would normally happen when a family is started is that all resources would go to keeping the family together and reasonably functional.

What I usually see in my country is the breakdown of any future plans, especially completing school. And most often young couples fail at keeping their families afloat.

Merc's kids (well, not really) are to be congratulated.

 

[ddrueding]

What I usually see in my country is the breakdown of any future plans, especially completing school. And most often young couples fail at keeping their families afloat.

That is what typically happens here, too.

 

[Santilli]

I should be more of a low life. Some of the girls I taught were Playboy material, and it made the low pay worth it.

 

[Fushigi]

I should be more of a low life. Some of the girls I taught were Playboy material, and it made the low pay worth it.

Playboy material? (NSFW pics above & below link)

 

[Mercutio]

I should be more of a low life. Some of the girls I taught were Playboy material, and it made the low pay worth it.

I should be so lucky.
Other than Nitsirk, all the women I have ever taught are either 60-year-old steelworkers or the wives of steelworkers, or they're heavyset, uh, "urban" girls, many of whom are either pregnant or have had kids.
Ew.

... and those are the only women I ever see, other than the chicks who take my order at Subway.


However, I've met a fair number of Playboy Playmates (benefit of working in downtown Chicago near Playboy's production offices). Without their makeup most of them are probably exactly the same level of cuteness as the babetacular receptionist or HR rep in every office in the country (Nitsirk is the babetacular cutie for her office, though she'd probably roll her eyes if she read that here).

 

[sechs]

I should be more of a low life. Some of the girls I taught were Playboy material, and it made the low pay worth it.

This is public education?

 

[Santilli]

We have one talented, gorgeous, and no makeup long ball softball player that's going on a full ride. Wonderful sweet girl. Brick house.

Another that I was thinking of when I wrote this is just gorgeous, unique, and wants to be an actress. She has a very unique face, Sofia, but bigger body, and is a big flirt...

The low life comment was in reference to taking advantage, as many have, of the position of teacher, which I have never done. Heck, at my age, it's unlikely I ever will.

These women are beautiful, and bright, and, they are survivors, having made it through, and suceeded.

I also remember watching one of Cal's basketball players, who in a state championship high school game, had just pulled down 28 rebounds, and, 27 points, and, the team from Oakland Tech won the state championship. She was walking around bouncing her baby in the air on the floor at Arco. How she EVER made it through Tech, at that level, won the state title, got accepted to Cal, and had the grades and test scores, well, it's incredible to me...

 

[Santilli]

What makes public education is those kids that make it through, and, that you work with and help.

At a high school, Mt. Diablo, I was a sub, long term. I wanted to get the kids in the gym to play basketball, and, the AD, the principal, the basketball coach, thought I was subverting the youth of america by getting black kids out of the gunsites of the local 13's and 14's, into the gym at lunch, and after school, and playing ball.

A wonderful PE teacher, who also had similar problems prior, suggested I form a club, or use an existing one. So, I became the head of the Black Student Union, and, we had the basketball kids, and the stomp dancing girls in the gym at lunch, doing what they loved.

I got to run with the kids, and, now, nearly 7-8 years later, I see the same group, sticking together, playing in men's leagues, and doing well, staying alive.

The star of the group was just that, and team captain, for Diablo Valley College. I've helped him get into refing basketball, and, he's going to a 4 year college as well. He's been very successful, and, is a great person, and friend.

Nice to have a few other kids that you manage to help, and watch them get going in the right direction in this modern day morass of existence...

 

[Mercutio]

This year, my computer classes for kids will be smaller.

I'm going to have them build Shuttle boxes that we will be keeping for classroom use, but rather than getting a desktop and a monitor, apparently we'll be giving them Dell Inspiron 15s - Celeron 2.16GHz, 3GB RAM, 160GB hard disks, 15" screens and (sigh) 4 cell batteries.

The notebooks are a bargain at $399, but of course, they're Inspirons. I don't have any high hopes for overall quality, especially at that price. At least they have enough RAM. The comparable HP and Toshiba units were both specified with 1GB.

 

[Mercutio]

I finally got the go-ahead to do new classroom systems. My older machines are nearly six now.
Surprisingly, the C2D E6300s I bought all that time ago are still perfectly adequate for everything that happens in our classrooms. At the time, I felt like I might have over-specified just for buying something that wasn't a Celeron, but the Celerons of 2006 were single-core slugs that I'm sure would never have lasted this long.

I only had to pull seven motherboards out of those machines during the six year span.
I had to replace five Antec PSUs. All of the ones that died are an unusual size and shape that was only found on the first generation Antec NSK3800 chassis. Not even one of the full size ATX PSUs used by the second generation version failed.

My problem is that hard drives are starting to die. They're failing to restore or requiring long disk checks after frequent crashes. The work I have to do in order to put a system back after a drive replacement is expensive and time consuming, since no one makes an automated deployment system that can handle triple-boot Windows installs.

So I need to figure out what I'm going to do for my next set of machines. I have a budget of about $550 per computer for hardware.

I know the people I work with would rather have all in one machines, but that's not going to happen.
ITX? I could probably swing that if I wanted. I'm not sure if I want to bother. I'd prefer that the computers be quiet or silent, and those aren't traits I associate with ITX-size traditional PSUs.
I'm tempted to ditch DVD drives, but some of our classes actually do use them, and technically some of my off-site classrooms are used for other sorts of instruction as well. I might be able to get away with USB optical drives but I'm afraid they'd get stolen.
SSD? Maybe? I know I'm going to need at least 160GB drives for these computers.

Would I be better off just using laptops? This is an idea I'm considering as well. They would be quiet, portable and certainly perform well enough at this point, but of course there are security and reliability concerns, particularly with inexpensive models.

The plan for these machines is to dual boot Windows 7 (and probably Windows 8, eventually) and to run VMs for XP and Vista - both of which are still necessary for our course offerings. Because of that, I suspect I'm going to be interested in extra CPU cores and RAM. I don't have a firm handle on whether or not I can get away with using VMware Player for my environment; I might need to use VirtualBox instead. I really want to get away from multiboot configurations, but I'm not sure I can get away from it.

 

[LunarMist]

If the old form factor is working, why not stick with it? Of course they should have SSDs if it is in the budget.

 

[ddrueding]

Antec NSK 4482 Black / Silver 0.8mm cold rolled steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case 380W Power Supply
LITE-ON Black SATA DVD-ROM Drive Model iHDS118-04 - OEM
Mushkin Enhanced Essentials 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10666) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model ...
GIGABYTE GA-H61M-DS2 LGA 1155 Intel H61 Micro ATX Intel Motherboard
Intel Pentium G850 Sandy Bridge 2.9GHz LGA 1155 65W Dual-Core Desktop Processor Intel HD Graphics 2000 BX80623G850
Intel 320 Series SSDSA2BW160G301 2.5" 160GB SATA II MLC Internal Solid State Drive (SSD) - OEM

Currently $525 at Newegg. That is a decent machine.

 

[timwhit]

Antec NSK 4482 Black / Silver 0.8mm cold rolled steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case 380W Power Supply
LITE-ON Black SATA DVD-ROM Drive Model iHDS118-04 - OEM
Mushkin Enhanced Essentials 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10666) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model ...
GIGABYTE GA-H61M-DS2 LGA 1155 Intel H61 Micro ATX Intel Motherboard
Intel Pentium G850 Sandy Bridge 2.9GHz LGA 1155 65W Dual-Core Desktop Processor Intel HD Graphics 2000 BX80623G850
Intel 320 Series SSDSA2BW160G301 2.5" 160GB SATA II MLC Internal Solid State Drive (SSD) - OEM

Currently $525 at Newegg. That is a decent machine.

I haven't really been keeping up, but why not the Intel 330 Series Maple Crest SSDSC2CT180A3K5 2.5" 180GB SATA III MLC Internal Solid State Drive (SSD)?

It's $115 cheaper and 20GB larger.

 

[ddrueding]

I haven't really been keeping up, but why not the Intel 330 Series Maple Crest SSDSC2CT180A3K5 2.5" 180GB SATA III MLC Internal Solid State Drive (SSD)?

It's $115 cheaper and 20GB larger.

And you say you haven't been keeping up? That seems like a much better deal (and a better drive for that matter).

 

[Mercutio]

If the old form factor is working, why not stick with it? Of course they should have SSDs if it is in the budget.

I have a bothersome mix of first and second generation Antec NSK38xx cases. The first generation models use an obnoxiously-hard-to-source PSU and nothing else looks right with them. I want to ditch those chassis at least, and I might do that by just replacing the the 40% or so of my systems that use that chassis, but I also wouldn't mind modernizing with smaller machines and newer types of ports. Since I'd presumably save around 15% of my budget by re-using the current cases and replacing PSUs as needed, it's something I'm definitely considering.

I'm basically convinced I'm going to buy Intel motherboards, but I'm weighing the SSD matter carefully. I like the fact that they wear based on use rather than simple age and the advantages that go with their performance, but I wonder if buying them will be seen as an extravagance, especially since prices are in free fall at the moment.

dd: The difference between the i3 and the Pentium G basically comes down to graphics capability and hyperthreading, but especially looking at Windows 8 and current trends for GPU demands (e.g. HD video decoding), I can see a big advantage for improved graphics performance. I don't know if doubling the cost of the CPU is worth that for my environment, but I really had been leaning toward an i3.

 

[LunarMist]

I have a bothersome mix of first and second generation Antec NSK38xx cases. The first generation models use an obnoxiously-hard-to-source PSU and nothing else looks right with them. I want to ditch those chassis at least, and I might do that by just replacing the the 40% or so of my systems that use that chassis, but I also wouldn't mind modernizing with smaller machines and newer types of ports. Since I'd presumably save around 15% of my budget by re-using the current cases and replacing PSUs as needed, it's something I'm definitely considering.

I'm basically convinced I'm going to buy Intel motherboards, but I'm weighing the SSD matter carefully. I like the fact that they wear based on use rather than simple age and the advantages that go with their performance, but I wonder if buying them will be seen as an extravagance, especially since prices are in free fall at the moment.

dd: The difference between the i3 and the Pentium G basically comes down to graphics capability and hyperthreading, but especially looking at Windows 8 and current trends for GPU demands (e.g. HD video decoding), I can see a big advantage for improved graphics performance. I don't know if doubling the cost of the CPU is worth that for my environment, but I really had been leaning toward an i3.

An SSD will probably save you money in the long run with fast system restores and better reliability/longevity.

 

[CougTek]

I sent you an e-mail with a New Egg cart of what I'd assemble in your position. So now you'll receive SPAM from New Egg's affiliates thanks to me

If anyone else cares, here are the parts I've selected :

• Intel Core i3 3220 3.3GHz 55W LGA1155
• Intel BOXDH77EB motherboard LGA1155
• G.Skill 2x4GB DDR3 1600MHz memory kit
• Intel 330 Series 180GB
• Antec Gaming Series One enclosure
• Seasonic SSR-360GP power supply, 80+ Gold certified

536.94$ shipped from New Egg

I went with the recently-released dual core Ivy Bridge, because there's no reason to go with anything less. The Intel motherboard was because it was Intel's cheapest with an internal USB 3.0 header. I think it's mandatory if you plan to teach people how to assemble computers that they can see the latest interface connectors. I'm not particularly fund of Intel's mainstream boards, but you mentioned that it was your preference, so there you go. The RAM kit was chosen because it was a suggestion after I placed the motherboard into the shopping cart on New Egg. The price was right so I clicked "Add to cart".

The SSD choice has already been covered by others. I've had a positive experience with Antec's budget gaming enclosures during the past two years. They are not very noisy and provide good internal airflow, not that this build needs particularly good cooling capabilities... The PSU was my selection because it's relatively quiet and very efficient for the price. It's been reviewed at SPCR if you're interested about their feedback. I skipped the optical drive since you wrote you can do without it, but there's 13$ left in the budget to add one if you have remorse about the lack of it.

It's a suprisingly good system for such a modest price.

 

[ddrueding]

Yeah, I'm clearly out of practice. Coug's build is far superior.

 

[Mercutio]

That's certainly a nice box, Coug, but the case is far too large for most of my classrooms. Antec doesn't offer any well made and inexpensive minitowers. If I went the mITX route, there's the ISK110, but that gets back to the very real possibility that I won't be able to source a power supply in two years AND they're so far from standard parts that I'd have to keep other machines around for techie classes.

The Egg has this guy, which is a bit cheaper than the Antec One, but I've never heard of or seen the brand before. The HEC 6T is another known quantity and reasonably well made quantity as well.

Also, for all the talk of how easy it is to "just buy a Dell", I can't find a name-brand system with a SSD, 8GB RAM and an LGA1155 CPU for anything less than $850. Dell still wants $300 to put a 120GB SSD in most of its machines.

 

[time]

With classrooms in mind, I'd go for something like this (click to view Amazon deal).


Very slightly pricier but I think the convenience would outweigh any marginal spec downgrade to meet budget. Only 340mm depth yet standard ATX PSU; no fans required with a low-power CPU such as the G850 or i3 3220.