Beating Dell

[Mercutio]

I just did a write-up for a bunch of mid-price PCs.

XP2800
Epox 8RDA+
120GB 7200rpm Samsung drive
64MB ATI 9000
2x256MB PC2700
XP Home
WordPerfect Suite 2002

That rig is basically a dream machine.
Total came to basically $775, without a monitor, including shipping.
Even moving to an i865 and a 2.8 P4B only added $150 or so to the price.

Then I look for similar systems from the usual suspects: HP, Dell, Gateway.

Dell: $1400 for a Dimension Desktop (P4/2.6, no monitor, free MS Office)
Gateway: $1300 for an E-4100 (P4/2.8)
HP: $1200 from several different models (P4/2.8, no monitor)

So... looking at this, it seems like there's actually some room to maneuver around the big guys right now. The converse to "things are boring" (as they usually are in this part of the year) seems to be "things are cheap".

Just an observation.

 

[honold]

Save $250+. Top of the line for less. Dell Small Business has the brand new Dimension 8300 Intel 875P chipset Desktop. Pentium 4-2.6Ghz/800Mhz Bus, 256MB Dual channel DDR 400 Memory/30GB 7200RPM HD, 48x CD, AGP 8x, 10/100 Ethernet, 6 months ISP, Integrated 5.1 channel audio, Free Office Small Business, XP Home $849 - auto $100 - $150 rebate = $599 shipped free.

Super high performance ATI Radeon 9800 128MB AGP video card with TVout and DVI costs only $110 more. Radeon 9800 Pro cards cost $390ish! 9800 is clocked at 325Mhz instead of the 9800 Pro's 378Mhz.

 

[Mercutio]

Going straight to Dell's site, I got two discounts on the 8300: double RAM and a rebate for $150. I used double RAM in my calculation, didn't add the rebate. Didn't check coupon sites, 'cause 95% of computer buyers wouldn't know to.

 

[Buck]

Mercutio, what type of CD drive, enclosure, and speakers did you pick?

 

[Mercutio]

Liteon 48x CD-RW. Compucase 6812 (300W HEC). Labtec SPIN-50s.

 

[honold]

Going straight to Dell's site, I got two discounts on the 8300: double RAM and a rebate for $150. I used double RAM in my calculation, didn't add the rebate. Didn't check coupon sites, 'cause 95% of computer buyers wouldn't know to.

my example used no secret handshakes/coupons

what is your goal with this? i don't think 95% of computer builders don't know about deal sites

 

[Mercutio]

Configuring an 8300 for the lowest prices I could on everything, I can't get below $750, including the rebate.

For the money, my $750 machine is a better box than Dell's $1000 or $1200 system, let alone the unappealing machine I end up with if I drop everything to the bare minimums.

My point is that the guys who have said "I can't beat Dell on price", can.

 

[honold]

My point is that the guys who have said "I can't beat Dell on price", can.

no, they can't. all it takes is a visit to techbargains/fatwallet and newegg is smoked via coupons.

 

[honold]

come to think of it, didn't you buy the $70 pc dell had a while back? somebody was private messaging me about it.

 

[Mercutio]

... which, as we've already discussed, virtually no one knows about.

 

[Mercutio]

$170 ($98.something in shipping), but yes.

For $170, it wasn't a bad thing, but I also know that there's no way in hell Dell made any money on that deal. If Dell offered a deal like that every day, they'd be out of business.

Of course, I immediately had to replace the RAM (only 128MB) and hard disk (30GB) to get something I'd consider usable.

And I never really got what I'd consider stellar performance out of it. For a 2.4GHz chip, I really did expect more.

I sold it a few months ago.

If you're suggesting that someone compete with $70 P4 3GHz machines (that would be the equivalent in the current market), I'd say that is several kinds of demented.

Looking at what's offered on Dell or Gateway or HP's company stores, though - things look very good for the little guy.

 

[honold]

For $170, it wasn't a bad thing, but I also know that there's no way in hell Dell made any money on that deal. If Dell offered a deal like that every day, they'd be out of business.

they offer ridiculous deals at least once every couple weeks. they are not yet out of business. this isn't something they advertise on cnn.

If you're suggesting that someone compete with $70 P4 3GHz machines (that would be the equivalent in the current market), I'd say that is several kinds of demented.

the system i listed in this thread (a great deal with the 9800 for $110 too) is thoroughly competitive in today's market, and better than the $750 pc you listed. higher-quality case, 875 chipset, 3-year onsite warranty, office xp, assembly, shipping included, etc. memory/disk(s)/burner can be purchased aftermarket.

 

[Mercutio]

... all of which add to the price, and make a product that is less competitive to the one I've posted.

Besides, I'm of the opinion that there are a great many cases in the world better than those used on Dell machines. Palo Alto cases leave me limp (they're quiet and largely toolless. So is the case I use).

Dell does not offer machines that can be purchased for two-digit sums of money very often. I visit coupon sites daily. I can't ever recall seeing a deal as good as that $70 machine. Yes, there are coupons. Yes, they often stack. Do people know about them? Not many people do. Looking at Dell's prices without looking at coupons, I see opportunity.

 

[honold]

... all of which add to the price, and make a product that is less competitive to the one I've posted.

why are you doing this again, seriously?

case: worse
warranty: sigfinigantly worse
system: slower and louder
software: doesn't have office
video card: destroyed by cheap 9800
ram/cdrw/hard drive: can be matched
build time: requires construction

dollar for dollar, your system isn't close to competing with the most recent dell deal which was located in about 10 seconds - techbargains.com, ctrl-f, 'dell', 'enter' a few times. not to mention the fact that there have been even better ones in recent memory.

Yes, there are coupons. Yes, they often stack. Do people know about them? Not many people do. Looking at Dell's prices without looking at coupons, I see opportunity.

you know about them. i know about them. you cannot ignore them if you're being realistic about this. 'i can bench press more than the terminator - provided he has no arms.' i can't stress enough that the deal i mentioned doesn't even involve a coupon! totally off the street, anybody that hit dell small business during the deal could do it with no help.

(and i have a 15% off stackable small business coupon right now to really make things ugly)

Besides, I'm of the opinion that there are a great many cases in the world better than those used on Dell machines. Palo Alto cases leave me limp (they're quiet and largely toolless. So is the case I use).

Dell does not offer machines that can be purchased for two-digit sums of money very often. I visit coupon sites daily. I can't ever recall seeing a deal as good as that $70 machine. Yes, there are coupons. Yes, they often stack. Do people know about them? Not many people do. Looking at Dell's prices without looking at coupons, I see opportunity.

 

[honold]

damn, i must not be able to quote today

 

[Mercutio]

Or spell "significantly".

Case: As good, if not better (I'd say it's a judgement call)

Warranty: For a business I typically provide two years if I'm selling the machines. This does not happen often, but my customer in this case is one I've dealt with for probably four years. Since most of the parts in question have 3-year warranties. I wouldn't call that significantly worse (in fact, the comparable system I looked at from Gateway was 1 year standard).

Software: Comes with WP Office Suite, just like the Dell and Gateway (MS Office is bonus right now)

Video: Radeon 9000 better than integrated intel cheapo graphics. The 9800 adds cost significantly and isn't much use to a business user anyway.

RAM/HD/CDRW: Mine is better, by default. My parts are best-of-breed (argue Samsung if you want, but WD = monkey pox in my book), my costs are fixed, and my box is inexpensive NOW.

 

[honold]

Case: As good, if not better (I'd say it's a judgement call)

look, feel, and noise i would guess the dell to be on top. i would be srignigaftly surprised if your case is better on noise.

Warranty: For a business I typically provide two years if I'm selling the machines. This does not happen often, but my customer in this case is one I've dealt with for probably four years. Since most of the parts in question have 3-year warranties. I wouldn't call that significantly worse (in fact, the comparable system I looked at from Gateway was 1 year standard).

you come to their house next-day with parts? :/ what happens if you get hit by a bus? dell won't.

Software: Comes with WP Office Suite, just like the Dell and Gateway (MS Office is bonus right now)

yes, so office is free, and better than wp suite.

Video: Radeon 9000 better than integrated intel cheapo graphics. The 9800 adds cost significantly and isn't much use to a business user anyway.

ah so now we're narrowing it down to business. ok. who cares about the oboard graphics then? they could throw in $40 or whatever for a geforce if they do. i guess these business users want xp2800+ cpus too? come on...

RAM/HD/CDRW: Mine is better, by default. My parts are best-of-breed (argue Samsung if you want, but WD = monkey pox in my book), my costs are fixed, and my box is inexpensive NOW.

better by default = worthless point. even ordering the desired (if any) parts is way less effort than ordering and assembling the entire system. business users value the names 'intel' and 'microsoft' more than anything, not 'amd' and 'corel'. the motherboard is open to debate too.

so, first build beats dell. then, build beats dell ignoring coupons. then, your build including (less) support beats dell ignoring coupons. then, your build including support beats dell ignoring coupons, for business users (which apparently want 2800+ cpus and don't mind using wordperfect).

these deals come along all the time, and they blow away anything you or i could build. this doesn't mean you fail to provide a valuable service, or that the whole world knows about dell's excellent pricing (and/or coupon) when it rolls around. dell > build. not as elite, but definitely more cost-effective.

 

[honold]

also, xp home...for business?

 

[Tea]

If you can't beat Dell, you're not trying. Dell ain't the company you have to worry about, its the shop around the corner that provides the real competition.

 

[Mercutio]

XP Home for someone who does not and will not need to be part of a domain.

 

[honold]

let's just retype the fleet computer thread and save ourselves the trouble! this shop-owner sentimentality doesn't negate basic economics: faster, cheaper.

merc bought a p4 2.4/256mb pc1066 rdram/30gb/xp home/cdrom/56k for $70 + $100 shipping 6 months ago. know any shops around the corner that can do that today?

how about TWO 2.4ghz p4/40x liteon cdrw/128mb crucial/xp home/30gb/ethernet/1yr on-site warranty/15" samsung lcd/etc for $885. two systems, two lcds. 6 months ago. can anybody do that today?

how about an 875p as mentioned IN THIS THREAD? that could be bought yesterday. 2.4/800fsb, 875p chipset, 256mb ddr400, 30gb, 3yr inhome warranty, xp home, office xp, ethernet, 6 months free isp, 5.1 sound, $600 including shipping/assembly. just a walk around the corner!

you're high.

 

[Howell]

honold, could you boil down your point to just a sentence or two.

 

[Buck]

Just as a question, what is wrong with XP Home in a domain?

 

[honold]

Just as a question, what is wrong with XP Home in a domain?

a domain is just basically a workgroup (which xp home supports) with centralized authentication. usernames/passwords have to be maintained on the local system with the domain controller, group policies cannot be enforced, \\xphomesystem\c$ shares require logins for domain admins, etc. it works, but it's a hassle.

 

[Buck]

Just as a question, what is wrong with XP Home in a domain?

a domain is just basically a workgroup (which xp home supports) with centralized authentication. usernames/passwords have to be maintained on the local system with the domain controller, group policies cannot be enforced, \\xphomesystem\c$ shares require logins for domain admins, etc. it works, but it's a hassle.

As I suspected, because I use XP Home in domain environments. I would expect that those hassles are more relevant in a more stringent or inflexible domain environment. Then again, who would spend the money to set up a three-node domain? Oh yeah, me.

 

[Mercutio]

Case: As good, if not better (I'd say it's a judgement call)

look, feel, and noise i would guess the dell to be on top. i would be srignigaftly surprised if your case is better on noise.

You did that on purpose.

The Dell may be slightly quieter. It's a very close thing. Considering that the Compucase is a real, metal case (ie, harder to make quiet), I'd give it more credit than you obviously are. Look-wise, the Compucase is beige and boxy; the Dell is black and boxy. I can get a black compucase if someone really wants one. I'm not sure what "feel" would mean in this context. I do know that my case of choice "feels" very solid in its assembly. The Dell case is soft plastic.

you come to their house next-day with parts? :/ what happens if you get hit by a bus? dell won't.

Buses? In northwest Indiana? hahahahaha

Oh. You're serious.

Dell will contact the same local dumbasses I've been seeing for three or four years to satisfy their contractual obligation to send someone next day. The first guy may or may not be carrying parts (usually not, in my experience), and more than likely doesn't have the diagnostic skills to fix a real problem.

In contrast, I *do* have parts on hand at all times to fix one or two computers in my standard configs, and I can always loan out part of my own collection if need be.

Oh, yeah, and I'm a way better tech than the local Dell reps. And so is anyone else I choose to help me.

There's only one of me, that's true. Believe it or not, this is the point where my work as a trainer comes in handy. I get to spec out talent. Every once in awhile I have one of my (former) students take a call. Good deal for them - they get experience and some cash. Were I to move to contracting full time again, there's a couple of them I'd hire in an instant.

If I get a 911 call from a customer, I (or someone whom I have good faith to represent me) *will* see them next business day, at the latest. That is at least as good as Dell does.

yes, so office is free, and better than wp suite.

I think if you asked people who worked in a Law Office, you'd get a very different answer to that question. In Lake County, Indiana, the only electronic format allowed for court filings is .WPD.

BTW, I'm also a wordperfect person. Word is braindead. WordPerfect works better and can do more cool stuff. Excel is good though . Access is the AOL of database software, and Outlook should be take it hard with the business end of a baseball bat, nifty as Exchange schedules are.

The machines I'm replacing are MOSTLY 486/66 and Pentium 90 machines running WfW and Wordperfect 5 for DOS. 15 PCs. Knowing that another upgrade won't be coming for a long time, the requirements for fast CPUs and storage that would normally be... excessive (their central storage at the moment is a 40GB Snap Server), make a lot more sense, don't they?

better by default = worthless point. even ordering the desired (if any) parts is way less effort than ordering and assembling the entire system. business users value the names 'intel' and 'microsoft' more than anything, not 'amd' and 'corel'. the motherboard is open to debate too.

Fortunately, this is a situation where my judgement and the trust placed in me by my client (who were given the option to use Intel CPUs, both Celeron and P4, by the way), carries more weight.
The time I give up for build and data transfer is billable, yes, but in the scheme of my current project, not terribly great (I can build 15 PCs in about three hours, apply a ghost image + data restore to all of them in 1 hour total - I'd need to do two batches). Call it a half days' work. I'd probably call that $250 in this case, and the machines would be all set up and perfect for the folks receiving the equipment.
Anyway, Dell's lowest price doesn't provide something comparable to what I'm offering. We can't seem to do an apple-apple comparison. If I spec something that's comparable, I get a much more expensive machine. If I spec based on price, what I end up with isn't nearly as nice as what I'm offering.

so, first build beats dell. then, build beats dell ignoring coupons. then, your build including (less) support beats dell ignoring coupons. then, your build including support beats dell ignoring coupons, for business users (which apparently want 2800+ cpus and don't mind using wordperfect).

Yup. Will Dell let me apply the same coupons and rebates 15 times? Nope.
*IS* my support better than Dell's? I think so, even if I only provide two years cost-free.
Dell Small Business reps can give discounts, I know, but but I'm looking at providing 15 "nice" machines, setup and data transfer service for under $12,000.
There's also 12 hours of classroom training per user involved here. That's a training big project, and mail-order giant Dell is a little weak in that area.

Dell *does* have a whitebox program. I looked into it. Not a bad deal, but for the money, all they're doing for you is assembly. You provide the support.

A single PC and a stack of coupons - that I can't argue with. Saying Dell's list prices for comparable hardware to what I'm selling are better, and you will have an argument.

 

[honold]

My point is that the guys who have said "I can't beat Dell on price", can.

and this has completely morphed into 'my point is that i feel i can better service small business clients better than dell.' your original quote, your response to my question about your point, was dead wrong:

A single PC and a stack of coupons - that I can't argue with.

your warranty is 1 year less, you can die, and you can decide to move to nepal and study ping pong. while i don't doubt you're smarter than the average dell bear, the truth is it doesn't matter at the end of the day to a client. if you impress them with service, they'll use you again. that's important to you. if you never existed, and dell did drop the ball (a non-zero possibility, but not as likely as you seem to think) they would either be disappointed and shrug their shoulders or be angry and choose another vendor next time. people aren't going to doubt dell's support unless they've already had some bad experience.

I think if you asked people who worked in a Law Office, you'd get a very different answer to that question. In Lake County, Indiana, the only electronic format allowed for court filings is .WPD.

well if you asked a settlement in bangladesh you may find that it's bad luck to use software that has filename suffixes that end in the letter 'd'! irrelevant. furthermore, wordperfect is offered by dell free of charge.

Anyway, Dell's lowest price doesn't provide something comparable to what I'm offering. We can't seem to do an apple-apple comparison. If I spec something that's comparable, I get a much more expensive machine. If I spec based on price, what I end up with isn't nearly as nice as what I'm offering.

that's because you're not doing it during a live deal, which i shouldn't need to mention come around about as often as sunsets. yesterday you could have bought that (better) system and tossed the peripherals in it. hell, you could have sold the copies of office for $200 a pop to somebody else.

dell small business reps can also offer aggressively priced business leases which will count as an operating expense as opposed to a purchase.

dell drops nuclear bombs on pricewatch for singular systems on any given deal day, and they're more competitive in business than you're giving them credit for.

and, as much as i would trust your judgement over any random dell tech, i would still pay even a slight premium for dell systems if i were to start a business tomorrow where i had no play in the information technology aspects. the fact that they're going to be around is worth too much, not to mention the ease of liquidation of canned systems (if i opted to skip the lease, which i probably wouldn't).

 

[Tannin]

"Sentimentality"?

It's business, plain and simple: cold hard facts.

If you can't beat the likes of Dell, day in and day out, your chances of survival in the computer industrry are zero. Forget it. Take your bat and your ball and go home, while you still have a home to go to.

If you can beat Dell (which, I freely admit, is a simple enough task) but you can't beat your smaller (i.e., more serious) competitors, then you might have a business that can survive, but quite possibly not.

If you can match it with your most competent and competitive rivals on a "win some, lose some" basis, and you can keep that up year in and year out, then you do have a viable business.

Mate, I make my living out of competing in the retail computer industry. The dollars that pay for the bandwidth that lets me make this post come from competing in the retail computer industry. If I couldn't beat Dell, I wouldn't be here.

If you think that Dell are hard to beat , then I'll give you a tip: don't you ever, ever go into retailing, because you haven't got what it takes.

 

[honold]

check your ego at the door, and understand that people who in no way beat their competitors in cost/value still manage to make a living doing it. it happens every day.

care to offer me a deal like the 3 i've mentioned in this thread?

dell is still in business and is still profitable, so don't bring that up. what i'm interested in is whether or not i, as a consumer, can get a better deal through you or them.

i don't intend to go into pc retailing because i like to make good money, and i don't like having that glass ceiling over my head - but thanks for the tip.

 

[Mercutio]

If you read the very first sentence in this thread, yes, I indicated that this thread was about a bunch of computers. Not just one.

I choose not not to make a living - normally I don't even try to make any money, beyond the tiny amount that that makes my business qualifty as such - as a computer retailer. I build them. I sel them. At very close to ZERO profit, as a hobby. As a rule, I don't want to even TRY to eke out a living in the spaces between white boxes and name brand PCs are. The margins aren't usually there.

Every once in awhile I have an opportunity to build PCs and make money on the deal. This is one of those cases. Normally, I put people in contact with a sales rep at IBM or Gateway. I used to suggest Dell. I've watched Dell drop the ball, presales and post. Could be a regional issue (their local techs are bad, and I've seen sales on the "rapid" and the "morbid" ends of the scale. To be fair, Dell has actual employees doing service in downtown Chicago, and I've seen Paladin doing Dell service in the suburbs. They're a generally good outfit, but it's hard to tell whether that's Dell or a 3rd party service agreement).

I'm looked, today. My price was better. My machine was better. It can obviously be done. Today the margins were there. If Dell is playing "let's offer a sale for 20 minutes starting at 2:17PM Central Fiji time", I don't think that's a game I'd want to play.

When I bought a PC from Dell for $70, I bought it probably 15 minutes after I heard about it. Since the person I had already arranged to build a computer for that week qualified as well (you had to be affiliated with a school), I phoned him shortly after I filled out the forms myself, probably 25 minutes later. He couldn't get the same deal. Couldn't get anything like iit (I think he was quoted $320 for the same machine).

 

[Prof.Wizard]

Hi, sorry to pop in...

I'm sure small ma'n'pa shops can still beat big retailers in prices in respect to what you get. The situation is basically the same in Italy and in Greece too, so I can confirm Mercutio's and Tea's claim...

...but, is it possible the difference in price to be attributed to other things?
I'll name some:

1. Quality of Materials: yes some people especially those who buy Gateways and Dells may want to see their case fit well in with their living room.
2. Warranty & Service: this is far more important and I guess it makes the difference if the buyer is n00b and wants his peace of mind.
3. Software: yep, the software bundle can sometimes be impressive, even if not so important.
4. Brand Effect: this is the most stupid of reasons but bear in mind the guys who buy from there are almost never power users. We pick ourselves the components to stuff in the PC. :wink:

Last, there is this certain feeling when I buy from my neighborhood computer shop back in Greece. Because the guy knows me (I've made him rich over the past years) I hate him when he insists on what should I place or not.

I guess this thing doesn't happen when you pick your components from a big retailer's online shop.

 

[Tea]

Ego? What a sad joke. Anyone that thinks that being able to beat Dell for all-round value iz something to be proud of has serious problemz. Any fool bright enough to butter toast can beat the vomit box makers.

Like any retailer, I have found myself competing against almost unbeatable offers from rival supliers many, many times. It's never easy and sometimes the best thing you can do is say "that's a great deal, sir. I advise you to go with it."

Not one of the vomit box makers has ever done that to me. Not once in over a decade of retailing. (Unless you count the Osborne scam, which I recounted in a different thread once upon a time, and which doesn't count becuse they were not really vomit boxes and it was a short-lived scam that wound up in bankruptcy court.)

The PC industry is fiercely competitive, no doubt about it. But there are far, far more serious threats to my business (or to any other retailer's business) than the likes of Compaq and Dell and IBM. As serious competitors, Dell ain't even on the radar.

 

[time]

Honold, anyone would think your initials were MD.

I agree that the inclusion of MS Office, and the remarkably cheap Radeon option, are great bargains. Unfortunately, the rest of your argument founders in a puddle of logic.

Yes, you can (or could) buy a PC from Dell for $599, sans monitor. However, you're not just comparing apples to oranges, it's more like apples to cherries.

Firstly, the main profit here for Dell is that they are more a finance company rather than a computer company. In this, they are by no means alone. Many people will jump at the monthly instalment option, and pay 85% more than the advertised price, because most people do not understand finance. Why do you think they have the rebate scheme?

Secondly, the things you got wrong:

The warranty is one-year, not three. And whereas Mercutio will care how long his customer is off the air, Dell won't. Consumer goods warranties are slippery things at best, and at worst they apply to computers. Of course, the customer is free to engage someone else to fix the PC they so desperately need - not only will they be out of pocket for this, but Dell explicitly denies all further warranty responsibility once anyone else gets their hands on it.

About the only time a PC will be fixed onsite is if the CD-ROM drive is dead, or something equally ubiquitous. There is not just a gap between real onsite service and what Dell offers, It's a yawning chasm. Frankly, I'd like to see all companies making such outrageous claims prosecuted, but there is an ever-diminishing chance of that in the modern world.

I'm not even going to start on the fact that the overwhelming majority of problems are down to software, something explicitly excluded in the Dell support agreement.

Secondly, Dell tells whoppers (and gets away with it). For example, the 256MB option isn't dual-channel. You need two (or four) matching DIMMs to support dual-channel, and the 256MB is clearly a single DIMM. Of course, if you pay a whopping $140 (or $150 if you're enough of a mug to forego the rebate), they'll happily provide a second 256MB DIMM!

I'm afraid that I'm cynical enough to wonder if the "400MHz" they advertise applies to the actual DRAM clock or the FSB ... You'll notice that they avoid any reference to "DDR400" or "PC3200".

In any case, the terms "800MHz" and "400MHz" are of course misleading. Increasing the data rate doesn't affect the request (address) rate, which is still languishing at 200MHz (AFAIK). Hey, I'm being picky today after being reminded of this by a thread over at Aces.

Thirdly, the configuration is wildly disparate with Mercutio's - as he tried to point out to you. My efforts with Dell's online customization yielded $1278 (after rebates), depending on speakers (none with the base config). If you want an optical mouse and passable keyboard, add another $50. And it would only cost him an extra $200 to add MS Office. The 9800 might hurt, though ...

Fourthly, adding the missing items aftermarket is creative but impractical. This is a Dell PC, not a white box. Go read their warranty terms, then tear it up. After changing the HDD, CD and RAM, you expect them to support you? I assume their support still revolves around the hidden backup partition, which will no longer exist.

Just adding those three items will cost $200-250, making you the loser, but you also forgot the graphics card, speakers etc ...

Fifthly, I dispute your suggestion that a P4 2600 is faster than an Athlon XP2800. If it was a Palomino (2250MHz or 87% raw clock speed), your statement would be wrong 90% of the time. I'll concede a Barton might be considered equivalent, but for most people the 'feel' of Mercutio's configuration will be the same or better.

I take umbrage at your suggestion that a high-end Compucase product is in any way inferior to Dell's Palo Alto plastic toys. You need to get out more. And as for the power supply ... :roll:

Sixthly, I'm not sure that a six month subscription to AOL can be considered a plus. Okay, you can select an 'alternative' ISP, but I'd love to know the terms and conditions.

To finish, I'd like to be perverse and leave you with the advertising that Dell is bombarding us with here. Now this may be a threat, although Tea would say that anyone who buys one deserves everything they get.

Celeron 2.2GHz
128MB DDR-SDRAM (up to 32MB allocated to graphics)
40GB HDD
48x CD-ROM
3.5" FDD
15" CRT monitor (13.8 viewable)
WordPerfect Productivity Pack
1-year limited NBD onsite service
MS Windows XP Home
Free Delivery (!)
US$590 (excluding taxes, assuming exchange rate of 65c, etc)

The real killer they offered a couple of weeks ago was more or less the same thing (Celeron 2GHz?), but for $530. With Oz pricing, that's hard to beat (not that you'd want to).

 

[Mercutio]

If the CPU in question is indeed one of the brand-new P4 "B" chips, it may very well be subjectively faster than an XP 2800, time. Gobs more bus bandwidth and I/O-starved hyperthreading have to be good for SOMETHING.

 

[time]

Um, I allowed for that.

Ironically, the new Intel chipsets increase the strengths of the P4 while failing to do much about the weaknesses. It was already strong in streaming operations - too bad about everything else. And obviously hyperthreading is a very mixed bag.

As an over-the-top metaphor, it's a little like trying to race a dragster in an F1 race. You announce that you've gained an extra 50 hp, and make sure that every race includes a nice long straight after a hairpin bend. There's no question you'll thrash everyone comprehensively in the task that suits your vehicle, but the rest of the track that hasn't yet been 'optimized' may be a little less forgiving. So what's the overall benchmark result? And is it relevant to you?

Mind you, you could argue that AMD is just as guilty with Barton. They didn't tackle cache latency, SSE2, etc.

Like most people, I think AMD got a little excited with Barton ratings, especially when compared with Canterwood etc. To avoid the looming dilemma, the Athlon XP clockspeed was never supposed to be less than 75% of the PR rating. Palomino and Throughbred were already killing the P4 in some tests, but falling further and further behind in clockspeed-dependent tests. So I'm reluctant to accept that a Barton 2500 can run 9% slower than a Thoroughbred 2400 and yet consistently be 4% faster. :-?

 

[CougTek]

As far as I know, Dell's coupons are only valid in the States. So beating Dell in U.S. and beating Dell everywhere else are two very different things. I have few problems to believe that the Aussie Mom&Pop clan can beat Dell most of the time. Here, even without the coupons, Dell is better on paper than what I can sell about one week every month and a half. Like this week for instance. Doubling the RAM and quadrupling the hard drive space for "free" is too much for small retailers to beat.

The Compucase is definetly a superior case than the Dell. There shouldn't be any debate about this. Besides, one of the very negative points of Dell's boxes is the proprietary power connecctor design. Upgrading ends up being more of a pain.

Another point not to neglect, at least for systems you build for yourself, is overclocking. You cannot overclock (gain extra performance for free) with a Dell, while you can with a DIY box. At 41U$ shipped for an Athlon XP 1700+ at Newegg, a CPU able to hit 2700+ rating most of the time, it's something to consider...

Last but not least, Dell doesn't offer Athlon-based system, so their boxes won't help me much for my FAH stats. No thanks.

I agree with Honold on some points. For U.S. residents without the knowledge (or desire) to tweak out their system, Dell is often unbeatable. No, their systems aren't very optimized and have many shortcomings on the performance side, but on paper, they are extremely hard to beat with similar components. Or should I say : similar ratings of components. I plan to get a Dell box for myself one day, when I'll have money to spare, during a killer coupon combo promotion and if a generous American friend is whiling to ship it to me (cause there're no killer coupon combos here). Not as my main rig, but for comparison purposes.

 

[honold]

The PC industry is fiercely competitive, no doubt about it. But there are far, far more serious threats to my business (or to any other retailer's business) than the likes of Compaq and Dell and IBM. As serious competitors, Dell ain't even on the radar.

i'll ask this for the nth time, can you offer me any similar deals to the ones i've mentioned? if not, they're not on the radar because they're at your doorstep.

 

[honold]

Firstly, the main profit here for Dell is that they are more a finance company rather than a computer company. In this, they are by no means alone. Many people will jump at the monthly instalment option, and pay 85% more than the advertised price, because most people do not understand finance. Why do you think they have the rebate scheme?

when did i make a statement about how they make their money? for something like a $70 pc, even if they finance it for 10 years, they're not making money. it's going to be very hard for the 2 systems/2 lcds thing too. etc. i do believe they lose money on this stuff, especially when coupon stacking comes into play.

outside of financing they do have residual benefits like repeat purchases when prices are equal - and they often are on accessories - and decisions to make use of dell equipment in business.

The warranty is one-year, not three.

they've been running the 'free 3-year warranty after rebate' promo for a while now, like a month or so. maybe it's gone now.

And whereas Mercutio will care how long his customer is off the air, Dell won't. Consumer goods warranties are slippery things at best, and at worst they apply to computers. Of course, the customer is free to engage someone else to fix the PC they so desperately need - not only will they be out of pocket for this, but Dell explicitly denies all further warranty responsibility once anyone else gets their hands on it.

where was i wrong about this? i never made a statement about whether or not dell 'cared', only that it would provide warranty service. cracking a case on a dell does not void a warranty, nor does adding equipment - they'll only support original system parts, however.

About the only time a PC will be fixed onsite is if the CD-ROM drive is dead

it's pretty standard policy to ship with 'all the stuff they need'. i had a pe600sc that was locking up during compiles, spent 5 minutes on the phone, and they showed up the same day to replace the motherboard AND cpu. this was like a $300 new system with a 1yr warranty. i can scan the work order if you'd like this was like a month ago.

it's certainly true that they're more apt to nuke your installation with an image, though.

I'm not even going to start on the fact that the overwhelming majority of problems are down to software, something explicitly excluded in the Dell support agreement.

they support the software they ship for 30 days (during the period where you can get a full refund). their 'standard' warranties include software support, the limited ones don't. if merc is providing tips for how to do equations in excel for free, god help him.

Of course, if you pay a whopping $140 (or $150 if you're enough of a mug to forego the rebate), they'll happily provide a second 256MB DIMM!

uh, so you don't do that.

I'm afraid that I'm cynical enough to wonder if the "400MHz" they advertise applies to the actual DRAM clock or the FSB ... You'll notice that they avoid any reference to "DDR400" or "PC3200".

the 875 doesn't support fsbs less than 533...

Thirdly, the configuration is wildly disparate with Mercutio's - as he tried to point out to you. My efforts with Dell's online customization yielded $1278 (after rebates), depending on speakers (none with the base config). If you want an optical mouse and passable keyboard, add another $50. And it would only cost him an extra $200 to add MS Office. The 9800 might hurt, though ...

how many times do i need to mention that the accessories/additions can be purchased AFTERMARKET? it still entails less effort than buying all the components individually and assembling the pc.

Fourthly, adding the missing items aftermarket is creative but impractical. This is a Dell PC, not a white box. Go read their warranty terms, then tear it up. After changing the HDD, CD and RAM, you expect them to support you? I assume their support still revolves around the hidden backup partition, which will no longer exist.

when was the last time you actually used a dell system?

the system i had warranty service on mentioned above was running an unsupported operating system, unsupported raid controller, and unsupported memory. no secret partitions. only compaq had systems that were screwed if you didn't have those - most vendors (if they use them at all) use them for extended diagnostics. this stuff can be done on dells with a boot cd.

Just adding those three items will cost $200-250, making you the loser, but you also forgot the graphics card, speakers etc ...

it won't make it a less cost-effective system, and merc didn't mention speakers

Fifthly, I dispute your suggestion that a P4 2600 is faster than an Athlon XP2800. If it was a Palomino (2250MHz or 87% raw clock speed), your statement would be wrong 90% of the time. I'll concede a Barton might be considered equivalent, but for most people the 'feel' of Mercutio's configuration will be the same or better.

875 with dual ddr400, hyperthreading (which will become more and more useful in the future), and 800fsb? go ahead and dispute it - i know what i'd pick.

'founders in a puddle of logic' is pretty lame, too. care to point out the logical errors made? people love to toss that word around whenever they're in an argument...

 

[honold]

As far as I know, Dell's coupons are only valid in the States.

weird, have you tested?

 

[Mercutio]

Dell keeps its stuff in a hidden folder instead of a super-secret partition. At least, that's how the last couple of batches of them I saw were set up.

Speakers: Labtec Spin55s. Not the greatest things in the world. Up near the top of the thread, but not my initial post.