Building a dirt-cheap HTPC....

ddrueding

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Yes, another system-building thread :roll:

I need to build a PC capable of DVD playback and video capture with the following I/O:

1 S-Video in (from Satellite)
1 RCA in (from VCR)
1 S-Video out (to TV)
1 RCA out (to VCR)
1 VGA out (to secondary monitor - optional)

The cheapest video card I can find with these interfaces is the ATI RADEON 9000 VIVO, does anyone have experience with this card? Will it allow you to select between the different inputs? Will it let you simultaneously output to all sources (mirrored)? The rest of the system is pretty straightforward, and as cheap as I could get.

Antec Sonata (mainly for looks, but quiet is good. slight premium)
Shuttle AN35N-Ultra (cheapest nForce2 mobo that isn't chaintech)
AMD Athlon 2000+ Retail
256 PC2700 Buffalo memory
WD800JB
Optorite DD0201 DVD+/-RW

The whole deal is just over $500. Comments?
 

CougTek

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Since my very poor experience with Optorite on their CD-writer, I'm always very skeptical about their products. I think Mercman has written their DVD-writers are ok, so maybe they've improved.

The Shuttle nForce 2 Ultra 400 is fine as long as you don't plan to overclock (it doesn't very well). But o/c'ing shouldn't be part of your plan for a home theater personal computer.

I have absolutely nothing against the WD800JB, but if you can find a Hitachi 7K250 with 8MB of cache for a similar price (8MB cache more for the warranty than for the performance), it might further improve the quietness of your system, although the single platter WD drive isn't very noisy either.
 

blakerwry

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watch out D, i just got a sapphire 9000 VIVO and the ATI software doesn't work with it. Admitedley, I didnt fool around with it too much (not more than 4 hours). I had already had my full of the MMC not working with ATi cards.


The 9000 VIVO does have an ATi rage theater 100 capture chip which works well, but you cannot use the MPEGII/DVD decoding part of the card unless you buy an actual ATI branded card... which means no sapphire, power color, etc. Buying an ATi branded card might also make the MMC work better with it as well. However, that means dishing out $100-$150 instead of $55-$70.


For the money, I'd seriously consider getting a hardware Hauppauge PVR card. The ATi cards are all software encoders except for the newest 9700/9800 AIW cards and even then are only partially hardware.

One of the benefits to the PVR cards is that they also act as a sound input and/or output device for video capture/playback depending on the model you get. This has the added advantage of ensuring that audio and video stay in sync with eachother.

You'll pay $140 for the capture only card, about $175 for the capture and output card(newegg). Those do come with remote controls.


Combine the cards with a cheap video card, a slower CPU, and a quieter HDD and you're set.

(isnt quietness a concern here?)



Also, on the sound. I was dissapointed by my shuttle's audio. Aparently they tried to squeeze the 5.1/6 channel sound along with the inputs through 3 jacks.... well, what they ended up with is completely fubaring the input. No matter what the setup, I can only get a single input(what should be the mic input is glued to center/bass).

Getting a real sound card would aleviate this problem.
 

Handruin

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My friend at work has a Hauppauge card and uses his machine as a HTPC. He combined his Hauppauge card with the snapstream software and he has had great results.

I was even considering the purchase of this card with their software..
 

ddrueding

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Thanks for the replies so far, this was what I was worried about. My concern lies in the fact that I have to keep this thing exceptionally cheap while making it stable and versitile enough to be running his primary TV.

I don't need a cable tuner, as input will be from satellite or VCR.

This will actually be replacig his aging Gateway Destination system. He'll be keeping his 32" monitor and his harmon-kardon amp with surround speakers. The machine itself (P90 32MB Win95a) has got to go. If a reliable and comfortable experience can't be gotten for this price, we might have to go the hardware route (TIVO with a set-top DVD Burner).

Thoughts?
 

blakerwry

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snapstream is a neat idea, but I've had some problems with it. Besides, I was only able to get the Pause, FF, RW TV feature (forget what it's called... oh yeah timeshifing) to work smoothly while maintaining high quality by adding a RAM drive. The ATi and winDVR software work much better in this respect.


Oh yeah... if you dont get a retail ATi card forget the ATi EPG (TV guide) to work.

winDVR uses titan TV as an EPG. It works, but I dont think it's as nice as ATi's.


There are some 3rd party programs like mythTV and myHTPC (windows media center looks like a big rip off of these programs). They offer compatibility with both hardware and software cards as well as other features including TIVO like functionality, weather, news, music, DVD, etc.



The problem is you better be willing to spend some time or some money or both.

Don't expect to build a $500 HTPC without putting alot of time into it. Since this is for someone else, you might as well get them a TIVO and DVD recorder.
 

CityK

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ddrueding said:
This will actually be replacig his aging Gateway Destination system.
David, any Adaptec cards in that machine by chance?
 

e_dawg

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I am researching options to build my HTPC as well (I bought a Samsung HLN4365 DLP RPTV recently, and it looks awesome on HDTV and DVD sources but absolute sh*t on cable and other NTSC sources). I am considering using a Bt/Conexant chipset capture card (Pinnacle PCTV Pro, Happauge WinTV, Leadtek Winfast 2000 XP Deluxe) with the "legendary" dScaler to clean-up the incoming NTSC sources for real-time processing for broadcast TV or capturing to disk.

I am also considering an ATI AIW Radeon 9600 or 9800 (with hardware MPEG2 encoding) and a Hauppauge WinTV PVR-350 (with hardware MPEG2 encoding).

So far, my conclusions of these options are as follows:

1. The Bt/Conexant card + dScaler combo is not quite as elegant or easy to use as the ATI or Hauppauge setups and is rather limited as a TIVO device, where the ATI and Happauge supposedly work quite efficiently with their featureful TIVO/VIVO/PVR applications.

2. The ability to work with dScaler, however, allows Bt/Conexant card users to process the incoming video signal and correct sh*tty picture quality in a way that ATI and Hauppauge can't.

3. The ATI AIW Radeon 9700/9800 can use VideoSoap, which can use the onboard pixel shaders to process the video signal, but it can only do it while recording to disk (not real time viewing) and it is not quite as good as dScaler from what I've heard.

4. I have no idea if the Hauppauge can do any video processing to the incoming signal.
 

e_dawg

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Mercutio said:
I shall make pronouncements in this thread this evening.

I was just going to create a new thread on "What TIVO/PVR card for a HTPC?" when I came across this thread. Of course, I was counting on you Merc to provide the bulk of the commentary on ATI's solutions. BTW, would you know enough about the other solutiong (e.g., Bt/Conexant chipset cards with dScaler) to comment?
 

SteveC

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e_dawg said:
3. The ATI AIW Radeon 9700/9800 can use VideoSoap, which can use the onboard pixel shaders to process the video signal, but it can only do it while recording to disk (not real time viewing) and it is not quite as good as dScaler from what I've heard.

VideoSoap isn't limited to the 9700/9800 - it also works on my 8500DV. It took a bit of trial and error to get settings that gave me decent results, but it does a pretty good job. I just wish it would let me change the settings on a per-channel basis, because some are worse than others. I don't have a BT card around to compare it to dScaler, though.

One other thing the AIW cards have going for them is the ability use ATI's Component Video Adapter.
 

SteveC

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blakerwry said:
steve, where do you get video soap for the 8500?

It's a part of MMC. In the TV app, go to the setup, and then the Personal Video Recorder. When you hit Map Preset, you can change the VideoSoap settings from there.
 

Mercutio

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Blake:
The Sapphire 9200 VIVO install CD DOES NOT have all the drivers and stuff needed to correctly set up video in.
Solution? Download the latest 25MB mass-driver pack thing from ATI. Then, install the latest MMC DAO extensions (they install a bunch of .ax files needed to properly handle the MPEG/AVI capture). Then do DVD if you can (you need a real ATI CD or new-ish OEM install CD of recent vintage (the Sapphire CD I got with a 9000 and 9500 didn't work but the one from my 9600 does), then, lastly do MMC.

re: ATI - VideoSoap and the hardware MPEG support ONLY works if you're using MMC for your capture application. I don't find it terribly helpful. It's real-time and everything but if a video is at all distorted it is many times better to run it through vdub or Premier to fix it. Much finer control.

As far as best results from capture goes you need two things: A VERY clean source and an assload of bitrate, preferably in a non-lossy codec. I'm to the point where I can tell what the weather was doing the day I recorded a TV show, based on the quality of my caps (er, 'cause I have a satellite).

In my experience, the Conexant chipsets have been all over the place in terms of quality. They *have* to be paired with a better quality tuner (e.g. a decent VCR) if you're using them to record TV. I've used Leadtek, ATI and Phoebe cards. dScaler is a beautiful thing but I've always gotten better quality unscaled caps from ATI.

ATI (AIW/VIVO) - I greatly prefer not having ATI's accursed octopus cables with all the I/O crap on them; VIVO 9100/9200s are easier to deal with than the messes the higher-end cards have, and to be honest Rage Theater 200 doesn't add a whole lot for most people. ATI also has the best remote in the HTPC universe. So...
If you want a remote in your box, get a branded 9600 AIW. They're cheap and all-round good.
If you don't need the remote or hate the octopus cables, look at a 9000-series VIVO.
I find the ATI Rage Theater to provide the all-round best quality for capture at a given bitrate. I use high bitrates (6 - 8kbps typically) and I never do anything else on a machine while it's capping. From my examinations, ATI cards manage a picture that looks a little better than my TIVO, and there's a lot said by that little bit.

The other choice in capture is the WinTV PVR-series. These are three short steps from being the awesomest things ever. 1. All three of the cards I try seem to blur high-motion, no matter how high I set motion prediction. 2. EXTREMELY limited compatibility with Intervideo Soft DVD software, which include PowerDVD. If you've ever had PowerDVD installed, don't count on getting a PVR250 to work (that comes from Hauppauge support as of about 6 weeks ago) 3. Really deeply lousy capture software and VERY limited support for 3rd-party programs.
The hardware-only MPEG2 capture is perfect about 90% of the time, good enough to burn to DVD right on the spot, but man does it suck when I notice that blurring. It drives me crazy.

If I had to buy just one device for video capture, it'd be an ATI. IF all I wanted was to make a TIVO-like device, I'd probably go with the WinTV PVR250.

Windows Media Center Edition is available through MSDN Downloads if you're a partner or an action pack subscriber. I don't care for it. It looks nice, but it records everything in goddamn WMV format, and there's no direct way to play back on either another PC (DRM) or record to DVD. You have to use an editing app that can deal with WMV (movie maker) to change to MPEG (if you're lucky) or AVI and THEN to MPEG. I can post more about it if anyone cares; I think what I've said is probably enough.

Sound: Ditch computer speakers. Get an Nforce2 and a digital connection to an HT receiver. It's so much better it's disgusting. ProLogic2 and Neo6 push most of the Left-Right signal to the center. The DD output on soundstorm makes real use of surround channels and maintains discrete Left/Center/Right. I can't emphasize this enough. If you're going to to an HTPC, get a real receiver for component switching (one cable to your display, and everything else goes to the receiver), real speakers for decent sound and a digital connection to a Soundstorm encoder to make everything that comes out of your PC as awesome as it can be. I am not kidding here. This is Mercutio, evangelizing an nvidia product (to all of you).

Snapstream is awesome, especially with an ATI remote (there are instructions for setting it up in the program, Blake), but it's crashy. I made a bunch of their regulars angry when I complained about it on their forums. 3.1 was bad. 3.4 is somewhat better but still can kill my HTPC, and that's not cool. I wouldn't recommend it for others, yet (specifically, I wouldn't recommend others pay for it. The 21-day trial is worth a look, though).

MythTV - I played with it about six months ago, with a LeadTek card, and I wasn't particularly impressed. Setup was beastly even by Linux standards. I understand there are now a couple of MythTV distros (a Knoppix bootable one, too); it's probably easier now. Still, I think Snapstream will be a better setup, once the bugs are finally worked out of it.

Tivo - I found one on sale for $30 after rebate. A DirectTivo, that is. I think there's a little too much work in its interface, and I don't like it recording random crap ("A Christmas Story" in Spanish, for example), but since my HTPC sometimes dies a Snapstream death, I keep season passes for the couple shows I don't ever want to miss, just in case. Plus it makes a nice second tuner source for my 9700AIW. I despise the fact that I have to do a second encoding pass to record things out of the TIVO to my HTPC, but apparently the shows on the TIVO are encoded in a way that hasn't been hacked yet. If Snapstream worked as reliably as its supposed to, I wouldn't need it.
 

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Mercutio said:
In my experience, the Conexant chipsets have been all over the place in terms of quality. They *have* to be paired with a better quality tuner (e.g. a decent VCR) if you're using them to record TV.

Two questions about this:

1. How does one automate the recording of shows if you require a separate tuner? I have heard about people using an "IR blaster", but how does it know when to change the channel on the VCR and to what channel? For example, if you have a TV card, presumably you can program it to record a specific show using its EPG. But won't the TV software change the TV card's channel? Does the IR blaster come with software that hooks into popular TV card software and intercept channel change requests, diverting it to the blaster instead?

2. Can one use a digital cable box instead of a VCR for this purpose? The output would be just like that of a VCR, no? (some even have component, but most TV cards don't have anything but RF or composite in).

dScaler is a beautiful thing but I've always gotten better quality unscaled caps from ATI.

You mentioned that you have satellite. What do you do when you have a storm and your incoming picture quality is poor? I have heard that one of the compelling reasons to use a Conexant + dScaler setup is that one can correct the poor quality feeds of cable and stormy satellite signals on the fly, whereas ATi cannot do that.

One of the main reasons why I am interested in this is because I just bought a big screen HDTV and the analog cable is so sh*tty it is really hard to watch. Could I not use dScaler to make it watchable, or is that simply hype?
 

Mercutio

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A serial blaster is an Infrared device that emits remote control signals. They fix the "tuning the card, not the external device" problem very handily. They do work on pretty much everything, but with a VCR I was able to program it to record, which got me to the same place. The IR Blaster I have is on a really short cable, and if I disturbed my equipment, sometimes it would stop hitting the IR receiver on my VCR. :(
Snapstream supports serial connections to direcTV receivers, at least. That way works beautifully for me.

IR Blasters probably work with cable boxes. I've never had cable. Not completely sure.

If my incoming picture is poor because it's snowing I go clean off my neighbor's dish (it's his satellite). That's about all I can do. No help for rain or fog. I'm thinking adaptive correction would fall into the "hype" category. Anyone who has edited pictures or video knows how hard it is to make a bad image look decent, let alone good. Might be worth a try if you're going the Conexant route, but I don't think I'd use such a thing as my justification.

Also: In my area digital cable is worse than analog. There are too many channels on the basic digital service, and they're compressed to all hell. Net effect is a little like watching internet video instead of TV.

My brother uses an antenna and HD service on direcTV to view HDTV content.
 

blakerwry

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Merc, you dont give me enough credit. I've installed the MMC before on ATi cards and I know how it's done. It was fairly obvious the Sapphire CD didnt come with crap except the basic drivers that were already outdataed.

I downloaded the newest catalyst drivers, then the DAO, then the MMC. Everything looked fine in device manager, but the MMC would imediately tell me "The TV Player failed to initialize the video" and to "check device manager to ensure the correct video driver is installed and working properly."

I did that with EVERY version of the MMC on ATi's site. This was on a new win2k install, I believe the only thing isntalled at that point was the newest dirextX. Nothing got the MMC working. Other capture apps worked fine.
 

Mercutio

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That particular error usually comes from a problem with the DAO files and/or not have DX9 (for the latest MMCs).
 

ddrueding

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So I've chickened out and decided NOT to build and support a shoestring budget HTPC. TIVO and Console DVD Burner it is...any suggestions on model?
 

blakerwry

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Mercutio said:
I don't know why you had problems, Blake. I can get it to work without any problem, every time.

Is that using the VIVO cards that are made by a 3rd party like Sapphire?


If so, I may give it another go. I think that I'd almost have to do another windows install just because I have tried everything I can think of.

ATi is just a pain sometimes. I remember with my TV wonder I actually had to write out a step by step process of OS and driver installation just to get the thing to work right. Doing one thing out of order could mean that it wouldn't work.

That's pretty bad considering the simply overwelming commoness of every component in the PC (1st it was a kt133, TNT video, HDD on a promise controller, Sb Live sound then it became kt266a board, TNT/Geforce graphics, hard drive on a promise controller, TBSC sound.) The TV wonder was also terrible at sharing the PCI bus... I had to install and setup the system without the TV wonder attached or I would get hard locks when installing drivers for other devices(the SB live being a notable device).
 

Mercutio

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The TV Wonder VE *is* bad. I've complained about it, too. It's a nonstandard Conexant card, not a homegrown ATI, and I think the installer for that card is actually buggy. Probably on purpose.

I do in fact have a 9000 VIVO and a 9200 VIVO, both made by Sapphire. My 9600 AIW is a Sapphire card, too. My 9700 and 9800 are both retail ATI. Sapphire is the company that actually manufactures ATI's branded cards. They're literally the same thing.
 

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Merc, since you seem to be the expert on ATI TIVO/VIVO solutions... I am considering purchasing an AIW Radeon 8500 or 9600 to compare against the Hauppauge WinTV dbx (stereo version of the WinTV) for a TIVO box. The AIW 8500 is about $150 US and the AIW 9600 is about $220 US. Is there any compelling reason to get the 9600 over the 8500?

For that matter, would it be better to get the Hauppauge WinTV PVR-250 for $165 US over either ATI card? You talked about the WinTV PVR-250's potential to be one of the best solutions, but also brought up some pretty significant problems with it as well...
 

blakerwry

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Either ATi will be fine for time shifting (TV on demand), and either recording and/or watching programs (you're obviously limited to 1 tuner, so no recording one thing while watching something else on live TV)..

The 9600 offers a radio tuner as well. However, from looking at ATi's site it apears that both of these are software encoders vs the partially hardware encoders of the 9700/9800(Merc may be able to confirm or deny this).

One thing where the TIVO acells is its TV Guide/Scheduling recordings. It apears easier to use and has more features than what you get with ATi's.
 

Mercutio

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The 9600 uses the semi-hardware-encoding-but-only-with-MMC Theater 200 chip, just like the other expensive ATI cards.

It has a radio tuner (cool, if you listen to radio programs regularly) and a much less severe cooling setup than the other high-end cards. Also, it doesn't draw so much power that it needs a molex or berg power connector from your PSU.

The 8500 is the only AIW with a digital tuner. It switches channels quickly if you have something hooked up to the UHF coax connector. That's the *only* special feature on the 8500. I prefer to connect video sources with Svideo and use external tuners, so no benefit there.

The 9700AIW can do PIP off dual inputs. This is very cool but since the 9700 is fairly loud and there isn't tons of support for PIP other than through MMC, I don't think it's THAT useful (nor can you cap off both at the same time).

What I recommend to anyone looking for an inexpensive capture system is an 9[012]00 VIVO. They're cheap and do all the same things as the AIWs, but don't have their own tuners... which is fine, 'cause you're probably going to want to use the MUCH higher quality tuner in your VCR, cable box or satellite anyway (not to mention the cleaner video signal you get from Svideo if you can use it). Also, I happen to think that the octopus cables on most AIW cards are more of a pain than they're worth, so the fact that most of the VIVO cards have actual connectors built into the cards is a plus.

The PVR-250 can be found on ebay in OEM form for around $100. 0 CPU load and 0 dropped frames are fantastic things, but just to review, the capture software is grounds for justifiable homicide. The card doesn't work if you have ever had an Intervideo soft-DVD player installed (PowerDVD, in my case) and *I* see some blurriness on screen during action scenes that I don't like. I've talked to a few other people who own those cards and only one out of five notices anything similar.
 

Mercutio

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Since I was playing with it last night:

Remember how I said the WinTV PVR software is bad, and that the card doesn't work with most external capture programs?

Well, let me tell you how bad it really is: The recording feature does not have a timer. That's right. If you're recording, you'd better be sitting at your PC, waiting for that capture to finish, to press stop the second it finishes.

The PVR250 does not capture in vdub.
The PVR250 does not capture through PowerVCR (which, admittedly, is ancient, and I wasn't expecting it to work).
The PVR250 does not capture through Premier

It works with Snapstream PVS and it works with its native app (TV2000). That's it.
 

ddrueding

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Merc,

Since you seem to have the experience....

What can a ATI 9000VIVO cap to? Can you switch between the s-vid and RCA video in connections via software?
 

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Mercutio said:
It works with Snapstream PVS and it works with its native app (TV2000). That's it.

I have been reading more about Snapstream lately and am very interested in trying it out (the TIVO services available in Canada are really limited, and Snapstream seems to be the best out there). I understand that you say the PVR-250 is limited in other regards, but it works well with Snapstream. With that in mind, would you recommend the PVR-250 over the ATI solutions if my main goal were to build a TIVO PVR out of a PC? (one that would use an HDTV digital cable box as its main source)

I noticed on the Snapstream that it only can record in 640x480 and not 720x480. Would you consider that a limitation when recording from a HDTV signal that is probably coming in at 720p?
 

e_dawg

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Thanks, Dave. Coincidentally, I was eyeing that exact package but wanted to know what the TIVO experts around here (and esp. Merc who actually had this combo before) thought about it before I ordered it.
 
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