Coronavirus

Handruin

Administrator
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
13,247
Location
USA
It's amazing that something that has several successful controlled clinical trials outside the US for the Wuhan Flu is being actively rooted against in the just because Trump happened to have talked it. You all are ghouls, but I suppose I shouldn't expect any better.
There has been no successful controlled clinical trials of statistical significance, maybe you missed that and jumped to an erroneous conclusion. Good luck with your hate; I hear it is debilitating.
 

Handruin

Administrator
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
13,247
Location
USA
We can only hope and pray that this (or any other) medication can be effective against COVID-19. IIRC, production seems to be ramping up, and some pharma companies are donating large quantifies.

From Time's postings, IMHO, enhanced ventilator production seems of somewhat limited value and secondary importance.

To me, major efforts should go into massive production increases of protective gear for medical first-responders on the front lines, to try to mitigate, if not prevent, health-care providers from being completely overwhelmed.

It seems that a lot of this equipment is relatively simple to manufacture, compared to a ventilator. And a lot cheaper.
Yes, absolutely. With enough time and proper clinical trials we will know more about how safe and effective it will be to use existing drugs for COVID-19. The scarcity of PPE is definitely a problem with medical staff having to reuse masks, etc. Getting more supplies will be a big help hopefully when the local and federal governments can stop quibbling over this stuff.
 

Stereodude

Not really a
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
10,865
Location
Michigan
There has been no successful controlled clinical trials of statistical significance, maybe you missed that and jumped to an erroneous conclusion. Good luck with your hate; I hear it is debilitating.
Hate? More like sorrow. You're the ones with the most vicious raw hatred imaginable in your hearts. You'll kill people to make Trump look bad. Like the democrat lady who killed her husband and poisoned herself with fish tank cleaner and then attacked the president and was then championed by the media and democrats everywhere as an example of how dangerous Trump is.
 

Handruin

Administrator
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
13,247
Location
USA
Hate? More like sorrow. You're the ones with the most vicious raw hatred imaginable in your hearts. You'll kill people to make Trump look bad. Like the democrat lady who killed her husband and poisoned herself with fish tank cleaner and then attacked the president and was then championed by the media and democrats everywhere as an example of how dangerous Trump is.
Do you have any family or friends you can reach out to? I think you need a break from all this. You're genuinely concerning me.
 

Handruin

Administrator
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
13,247
Location
USA
Wow, I hadn't heard that wild story - do you have a link?
I'm guessing he's referring to this incident. He'll claim fake news or something from my link.

Edit: just to make a point, my hesitation of blind support for the immediate use of hydroxychloroquine treatment is not related to this incident. It's sad they were hurt but it's not related.
 

jtr1962

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 25, 2002
Messages
3,859
Location
Flushing, New York
I'm guessing he's referring to this incident. He'll claim fake news or something from my link.

Edit: just to make a point, my hesitation of blind support for the immediate use of hydroxychloroquine treatment is not related to this incident. It's sad they were hurt but it's not related.
Blind support, meaning giving it to everyone who is hospitalized with the disease, no. But it should be given to those with severe enough cases to need ventilators. At this point those people basically don't have much to lose anyway. And if the treatment gets them off ventilators a little earlier, we can ward off any potential ventilator shortages.
 

Handruin

Administrator
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
13,247
Location
USA
Blind support, meaning giving it to everyone who is hospitalized with the disease, no. But it should be given to those with severe enough cases to need ventilators. At this point those people basically don't have much to lose anyway. And if the treatment gets them off ventilators a little earlier, we can ward off any potential ventilator shortages.
Well, maybe. I get that the FDA rushed approval for the use of chloroquine for the treatment in COVID-19 patients. Time will tell if doctors decide to use this as an option and what the availability is like. I would not be surprised if this approval may put some doctors at odds with using this as a treatment option. We will have to wait and see as more information and testing is performed. I know more clinical trials are being scheduled but they won't have proper results for several months.
 

Handruin

Administrator
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
13,247
Location
USA
Governor Baker from Massachusetts just extended our stay at home advisory until May 4th.

In other news, it seems Montana is having difficulties with getting COVID-19 testing. There is some disconnect with Trump saying "I haven't heard about testing being a problem.".
 

snowhiker

Storage Freak Apprentice
Joined
Jul 5, 2007
Messages
1,641
^^^ When did the testing issue(s) in Montana begin? Two weeks ago or 6 hours ago? Testing issues in Helena, or some tiny random town? Compared to the pandemic in the U.S. as a whole a testing issue in a low population density state of Montana is a minor bit of minutia?

How often is Trump given briefings about all the various issues in all 50 states and other U.S. Territories and worldwide? Is Trump supposed to have all of these facts memorized when asked a specific question or issue?

I'm not saying that Trump, or the team he has surrounded himself aren't buffoons, but realistically NOBODY would make all the correct decisions, all the time. And NOBODY would know all the facts about all the issues that are happening right now.

On a qualitative scale of: Amazing, Excellent, V.good, Good, Average, Below-average, Kinda bad, Bad, Poor and Horrible, I don't see any world leader as being anything above "Average" with most being "Below-average." Hundreds of variables, hundreds of issues, dozens of organizations with thousands of people all with different sets of facts and knowledge, all with conflicting thoughts, ideas and plans. Mind boggling that anything is done correctly.
 

snowhiker

Storage Freak Apprentice
Joined
Jul 5, 2007
Messages
1,641
Italy, Spain, France and soon the U.S. and Iran have passed China on the total number of deaths from COVID-19. I don't know if China's swift and/or complete lock-down and quarantine has kept their total number of deaths low, of if China is not being completely honest.

Maybe it's irrational thinking, but as the worldwide death toll increases I'm trusting China less and less.
 

Handruin

Administrator
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
13,247
Location
USA
^^^ When did the testing issue(s) in Montana begin? Two weeks ago or 6 hours ago? Testing issues in Helena, or some tiny random town? Compared to the pandemic in the U.S. as a whole a testing issue in a low population density state of Montana is a minor bit of minutia?

How often is Trump given briefings about all the various issues in all 50 states and other U.S. Territories and worldwide? Is Trump supposed to have all of these facts memorized when asked a specific question or issue?

I'm not saying that Trump, or the team he has surrounded himself aren't buffoons, but realistically NOBODY would make all the correct decisions, all the time. And NOBODY would know all the facts about all the issues that are happening right now.

On a qualitative scale of: Amazing, Excellent, V.good, Good, Average, Below-average, Kinda bad, Bad, Poor and Horrible, I don't see any world leader as being anything above "Average" with most being "Below-average." Hundreds of variables, hundreds of issues, dozens of organizations with thousands of people all with different sets of facts and knowledge, all with conflicting thoughts, ideas and plans. Mind boggling that anything is done correctly.
They make is sounds like 6 hours ago but the reports are still trickling in. The pushback comes from him saying he hasn't heard of testing being a problem as a generic statement yet there's still plenty of reports of testing being a problem in places like NYC just a few days ago. So..are his top advisors not aware and not telling him or is he lying? The testing is a key component in this pandemic so I kind of do expect the administration to be on top of that detail given the criticality of the situation. He also has a large confirmed history of false and misleading claims, so pushback and criticism on his claims is not unexpected or unwarranted by everyone except fox news.

Sure...I agree, almost no administration can realistically get everything right nor would I expect that. The difference is this administration will continue to preach everything is great even when facts show otherwise...even when their own experts continue to correct misleading statements moments after they are spoken. Just have them stop the lying and be honest and then there's a chance to be more forgiving.
 

Handruin

Administrator
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
13,247
Location
USA
Italy, Spain, France and soon the U.S. and Iran have passed China on the total number of deaths from COVID-19. I don't know if China's swift and/or complete lock-down and quarantine has kept their total number of deaths low, of if China is not being completely honest.

Maybe it's irrational thinking, but as the worldwide death toll increases I'm trusting China less and less.
I thought it was mentioned earlier in the thread that China stopped reporting asymptomatic cases. I would not be surprised if they were falsifying or reducing their numbers. This takes the limelight off them for a bit.
 

Handruin

Administrator
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
13,247
Location
USA
^^^ When did the testing issue(s) in Montana begin? Two weeks ago or 6 hours ago? Testing issues in Helena, or some tiny random town? Compared to the pandemic in the U.S. as a whole a testing issue in a low population density state of Montana is a minor bit of minutia?

How often is Trump given briefings about all the various issues in all 50 states and other U.S. Territories and worldwide? Is Trump supposed to have all of these facts memorized when asked a specific question or issue?

I'm not saying that Trump, or the team he has surrounded himself aren't buffoons, but realistically NOBODY would make all the correct decisions, all the time. And NOBODY would know all the facts about all the issues that are happening right now.

On a qualitative scale of: Amazing, Excellent, V.good, Good, Average, Below-average, Kinda bad, Bad, Poor and Horrible, I don't see any world leader as being anything above "Average" with most being "Below-average." Hundreds of variables, hundreds of issues, dozens of organizations with thousands of people all with different sets of facts and knowledge, all with conflicting thoughts, ideas and plans. Mind boggling that anything is done correctly.
So...I posted my response before seeing Mondays press conference. If you want a very recent example of what I'm referring to...like...aside from Trump way over confident display of misrepresenting Seouls population at 38 million, all the claims about doing more tests than any country in the world are wrong. South Korea has been way ahead of the US for weeks...but not according to Trump.

If you don't want to believe npr, you can watch the press conference where he makes up all these claims. Again, not confidence inspiring or building any level of trust.

 

snowhiker

Storage Freak Apprentice
Joined
Jul 5, 2007
Messages
1,641
Sure...I agree, almost no administration can realistically get everything right nor would I expect that. The difference is this administration will continue to preach everything is great even when facts show otherwise...even when their own experts continue to correct misleading statements moments after they are spoken. Just have them stop the lying and be honest and then there's a chance to be more forgiving.
Lying or misleading statements are bad. No argument from me. I don't watch news for the most part and don't have any facts/info on either side so my above reply was somewhat rhetorical in nature.

I would be concerned if Trump was "too honest and dire" regarding possible infections and deaths from COVID-19. Better to err on the side of optimism vs pessimism. If Americans truly panic, and a collapse of society/economy take place, we'd be in a whole world of shit.

I thought it was mentioned earlier in the thread that China stopped reporting asymptomatic cases. I would not be surprised if they were falsifying or reducing their numbers. This takes the limelight off them for a bit.
Yeah I remember that post. I didn't think they'd stop reporting deaths though, just infections. As far as the limelight being on China they now account for less that 10% of all infections and deaths and I think that will easily drop below 5% before too long.

I also think if China's number of cases and deaths drop below 1-2% of worldwide totals people are going to resent China big time for cursing the world with COVID-19 but suffering comparably little from it.
 

sedrosken

Allergic to Sunlight
Joined
Nov 20, 2013
Messages
1,074
Location
The Sticks
That's if you believe the numbers coming out of China, which I and most others I talk to don't. That's if they're not keeping the infections down by firing squad a la North Korea.
 

Stereodude

Not really a
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
10,865
Location
Michigan
Wow, I hadn't heard that wild story - do you have a link?
Handy gave you the first part of the attack Trump story.

Techno Fog on Twitter did some actual journalism and found some fascinating backstory.

Do you have any family or friends you can reach out to? I think you need a break from all this. You're genuinely concerning me.
So you have a psychology degree now too? 🤣 :LOL: :ROFLMAO:

Italy, Spain, France and soon the U.S. and Iran have passed China on the total number of deaths from COVID-19. I don't know if China's swift and/or complete lock-down and quarantine has kept their total number of deaths low, of if China is not being completely honest.

Maybe it's irrational thinking, but as the worldwide death toll increases I'm trusting China less and less.
You shouldn't have trusted them at all. It's being reported that crematoriums have been running nonstop and they brought in extra incinerators to handle the load.



I thought it was mentioned earlier in the thread that China stopped reporting asymptomatic cases. I would not be surprised if they were falsifying or reducing their numbers. This takes the limelight off them for a bit.
They announced just the other day they were going to start reporting the count of asymptomatic cases starting 4/1


That's if you believe the numbers coming out of China, which I and most others I talk to don't. That's if they're not keeping the infections down by firing squad a la North Korea.
Smart man...
 

Newtun

Storage is nice
Joined
Nov 21, 2002
Messages
364
Location
Virginia
They announced just the other day they were going to start reporting the count of asymptomatic cases starting 4/1
And speaking of all of us April fools, I saw a meme the other day, to the effect that "Of all the stupid, wild and crazy things I've done in my life, I'm dying because I touched my face?"
 

Handruin

Administrator
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
13,247
Location
USA
Handy gave you the first part of the attack Trump story.

Techno Fog on Twitter did some actual journalism and found some fascinating backstory.
What was your actual takeaway from this supposed journalism? Their opinion that this woman was regimented enough with taking medicine and seeking medical advice to know not to take fish cleaner and instead decided to poison her husband for murder with a hope to smear the president? There's a ton to unpack in there...I'm not seeing where this is actual journalism. I'm seeing no declared sources other than a suggestion these are screen caps of 2012 court case records? There's no timeline presented in the pictures or opinions so I can't tell if they're recent or historical. How do you see this as journalism?

That said, I'm sure there's a ton more to this story. Somewhere in there are a couple of people of questionable intelligence and a supposed history of mental illness. It's not a far reach to suggest they were highly impressionable to do something stupid like taking a chemical with a similar name. When I first read the headline I didn't automatically assume it was Trump's fault.

So you have a psychology degree now too? 🤣 :LOL: :ROFLMAO:
No, but I'm well versed in empathy and I've lived with a licensed and practicing social worker for over a decade, so I've picked up a tip or two over the years. My comments don't come from a place malice despite your assumption.
 

Stereodude

Not really a
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
10,865
Location
Michigan
What was your actual takeaway from this supposed journalism? Their opinion that this woman was regimented enough with taking medicine and seeking medical advice to know not to take fish cleaner and instead decided to poison her husband for murder with a hope to smear the president? There's a ton to unpack in there...I'm not seeing where this is actual journalism. I'm seeing no declared sources other than a suggestion these are screen caps of 2012 court case records? There's no timeline presented in the pictures or opinions so I can't tell if they're recent or historical. How do you see this as journalism?
It would great if you had the same skepticism into what you see reported in the MSM. I'm absolutely certain Techno Fog did more research than any of the people who wrote stories it blaming Trump. He has a track record of doing real research into stories with trustworthy information. I posted my takeaway.

When I first read the headline I didn't automatically assume it was Trump's fault.
You didn't have to assume that. The first headlines reporting the story came right out and blamed Trump before they revised the headlines and watered down the original stories after it was pointed out it was fish tank cleaner. The people who wrote the initial articles didn't even notice or do enough research to even see that it wasn't even the same chemical, but was fish tank cleaner. Their first instinct was how they could spin the story to attack Trump. This is what they do with everything and how they pick what stories they choose to emphasize.

No, but I'm well versed in empathy and I've lived with a licensed and practicing social worker for over a decade, so I've picked up a tip or two over the years. My comments don't come from a place malice despite your assumption.
So that makes you a psychologist by proxy? I guess you didn't get the part about diagnosing a patient you haven't examined yourself by proxy yet.
 

Handruin

Administrator
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
13,247
Location
USA
It would great if you had the same skepticism into what you see reported in the MSM. I'm absolutely certain Techno Fog did more research than any of the people who wrote stories it blaming Trump. He has a track record of doing real research into stories with trustworthy information. I posted my takeaway.


You didn't have to assume that. The first headlines reporting the story came right out and blamed Trump before they revised the headlines and watered down the original stories after it was pointed out it was fish tank cleaner. The people who wrote the initial articles didn't even notice or do enough research to even see that it wasn't even the same chemical, but was fish tank cleaner. Their first instinct was how they could spin the story to attack Trump. This is what they do with everything and how they pick what stories they choose to emphasize.


So that makes you a psychologist by proxy? I guess you didn't get the part about diagnosing a patient you haven't examined yourself by proxy yet.
I can see you have some challenges ahead to work through and I hope for the best for you. If you need anything let me know.
 

jtr1962

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 25, 2002
Messages
3,859
Location
Flushing, New York
That's if you believe the numbers coming out of China, which I and most others I talk to don't. That's if they're not keeping the infections down by firing squad a la North Korea.
Yeah, China and North Korea already found a cure for this which has a 100% success rate, prevents the spread, and costs well under a dollar. I'm sure China's actual death toll is much higher, but they're not counting those who tested positive and they shot in the official totals.
 

Stereodude

Not really a
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
10,865
Location
Michigan
Last edited:

Handruin

Administrator
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
13,247
Location
USA
Anyway...

To add a bit of humor and reality to the mix, John Oliver does a decent job summarizing how things have been going in the US. One of the better produced from home skits so far.

 

time

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 18, 2002
Messages
4,886
Location
Brisbane, Oz
I've observed that people who actually follow political parties or politicians behave much the same as sports fans, football (of whatever type) in particular. They are constantly vigilant about anyone making *any* kind of comment about someone in their 'team' and will quickly attack in retaliation, rather than defend or even consider the comment rationally.

The lack of personal self control has been growing for some time - witness how Elon Musk fans behave - but it seems to be noticeably worst with certain brands of politics. I certainly don't think Trump is the cause of this, but his example has encouraged a lot of people to forget 'how their parents raised them'.

So here we are, facing the biggest threat to our culture and quality of life in 100 years, and apparently it's all due to what politicians did or didn't do. Newsflash: governments aren't as powerful as people seem to think, especially these days. Sure, there have been plenty of examples where we think a politician could have made a better decision, but don't forget that government is effectively run by usually faceless people who advise the elected politicians. That could be their army of advisers, in this case it could also be a medical bureaucrat or committee. Despite his reputation for crazy Tweets, Trump mostly follows advice when it comes to governing.

I've often thought that the main job of a President (like any CEO) is to pick good staff. In that respect, it is not obvious to me that Trump is that much worse than Obama, who seemed to struggle in that area. But then, I'm sure he also takes advice on who he should hire ...

If you want to understand why the US was inevitably going to be decimated by this virus (and I mean socially and economically), you would need to be able to look at it dispassionately from the outside. You're not going to get much insight from those of us who are outside, because every discussion immediately degenerates into an hysterical football match.
 

sedrosken

Allergic to Sunlight
Joined
Nov 20, 2013
Messages
1,074
Location
The Sticks
Personally I believe this would have hit us hard no matter who was in office. It wasn't just Trump, I don't think anyone would have really been prepared for it to hit US shores and quickly make its way into the urban population. Some would have perhaps handled it better, taken less time to finally spring into action, sure, but hindsight is always 20/20.

All we can do now is weather the storm.
 

Stereodude

Not really a
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
10,865
Location
Michigan
So here we are, facing the biggest threat to our culture and quality of life in 100 years...
Are we though? I can't speak to the veracity of this video, but it would have to be quite an elaborate hoax to put this all together.

edit from admin - removed as potential propaganda link sharing...feel free to share privately.

...and apparently it's all due to what politicians did or didn't do.
It might be, though not about what they did or didn't do in the in the last ~3 months, but about what they haven't done over the last 20+ years.

Newsflash: governments aren't as powerful as people seem to think, especially these days. Sure, there have been plenty of examples where we think a politician could have made a better decision, but don't forget that government is effectively run by usually faceless people who advise the elected politicians. That could be their army of advisers, in this case it could also be a medical bureaucrat or committee.
But that's the pitch of politicians, especially those on the left. They promise the gov't will take care of you cradle to grave if you give up more of your rights and give them more power. And despite overwhelming evidence that the gov't is incompetent and generally bad at it's "job" people respond to the failure of gov't due to that incompetence by demanding the gov't do more instead of what would be logical and demanding they do less. Somehow the gov't has become the benevolent "daddy" that everyone looks to, when it's really just a deadbeat dad.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Newtun

Storage is nice
Joined
Nov 21, 2002
Messages
364
Location
Virginia
. . . Newsflash: governments aren't as powerful as people seem to think, especially these days.
Thanks, Time. One fairly powerful tool for a U. S. president is the Defense Production Act:​
The Act contains three major sections. The first authorizes the president to require businesses to accept and prioritize contracts for materials deemed necessary for national defense, regardless of a loss incurred on business (...). It also allows the president to designate materials to be prohibited from hoarding or price gouging, but harms incentive to produce at low profit or even loss.[3] The second section authorizes the president to establish mechanisms (such as regulations, orders or agencies) to allocate materials, services and facilities to promote national defense. The third section authorizes the president to control the civilian economy so that scarce and critical materials necessary to the national defense effort are available for defense needs.
IANAL, but it seems that this act is not restricted to military usage, but could be applied, say, in defense against a dangerous invading virus.
 

Handruin

Administrator
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
13,247
Location
USA
Thanks, Time. One fairly powerful tool for a U. S. president is the Defense Production Act:​
IANAL, but it seems that this act is not restricted to military usage, but could be applied, say, in defense against a dangerous invading virus.
This was invoked by the President:

The Secretary shall use any and all authority available under the Act to require General Motors Company to accept, perform, and prioritize contracts or orders for the number of ventilators that the Secretary determines to be appropriate.
 

DrunkenBastard

Storage is cool
Joined
Jan 21, 2002
Messages
706
Location
on the floor

Handruin

Administrator
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
13,247
Location
USA
Okay, I'm out. Please delete my account and purge all my posts from the forum.
You are a drama queen. I clearly marked publicly that I made the change to your post and I sent you a notice explaining why. This is the only time I've edited your content in 19+ years. That YouTube URL has some serious questionable validity and misinformation. I do not want SF associated with or directing traffic to the individual associated with that content. If you feel it's important, you're welcome to PM the video to anyone curious.
 

jtr1962

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 25, 2002
Messages
3,859
Location
Flushing, New York
We just passed 1 million cases worldwide. I knew it was going to happen, but still pretty disconcerting seeing that number.
 

snowhiker

Storage Freak Apprentice
Joined
Jul 5, 2007
Messages
1,641
US Testing rates are stalling...

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/04/americas-covid-19-testing-has-stalled-and-thats-a-big-problem/

PS. It's hard to confirm sources in the article, but Ars tends to be fairly well researched in past articles...
I haven't read the article yet, but it's just common sense that you can't continue testing at an exponential rate.

If I'm understanding things correctly....

Eventually the number of test kits and personal to give tests will top out. So number of infections will continue to rise while the number confirmed cases will prematurely top out. A false peak. Eventually actual infections will start to decline and the testing will catch up to the actual number of infections.

No clue as to where we are at now.
 

Handruin

Administrator
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
13,247
Location
USA
I haven't read the article yet, but it's just common sense that you can't continue testing at an exponential rate.

If I'm understanding things correctly....

Eventually the number of test kits and personal to give tests will top out. So number of infections will continue to rise while the number confirmed cases will prematurely top out. A false peak. Eventually actual infections will start to decline and the testing will catch up to the actual number of infections.

No clue as to where we are at now.
That makes sense. I would expect the graph to look like it has clipped or a flat top versus a continued curve to fit your hypothesis of peak processing. Though in reality that might be tough to identify with the amount of variability in the supply and turnaround times for the tests and how fast the data is released.
 
Top