Debating Intel C2D e6400 vs AMD 4600+ for new system

[Handruin]

Let me state by saying I haven't built an intel system in a long time. I know the conroe C2D's get some good press so I was pricing out some parts to build a machine for someone else and I'm looking at the following basics for price performance:

AMD:

• GIGABYTE GA-M57SLI-S4 Socket AM2
• AMD Athlon 64 X2 4600+(65W) Windsor
• CORSAIR XMS2 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400)
• Total cost: $540 USD

Intel:

• GIGABYTE GA-965P-DS3 LGA 775 Intel P965
• Intel Core 2 Duo E6400 Conroe 2.13GHz LGA 775
• CORSAIR XMS2 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400)
• Total cost: $579 USD

The price difference is small between the two systems. I know Adcadet went C2D and seems to love it...should I forgo AMD this round and give Intel the go, or would you guys still stick with AMD at this point? For me, AMD is safe because I've had good luck building systems with their parts...but I should probably branch out a bit and give Intel some play.

 

[Tannin]

Check the prices of the 5000: I'm getting 5000s for near enough to the same price as the 4600s right now.

 

[CougTek]

On my price lists, there's a 36$CAN difference between the 4600+ and the 5000+, but only a 10$ difference between the 5000+ and the 5200+.

If I was to build a new AM2-based system right now, I wouldn't opt for the broken Nvidia 570 chipset. I would go with an AMD(ATI) Crossfire 3200 instead. As a bonus, it dissipates far less heat than the hungry Nvidia 570 SLI.

Your motherboard choice on the LGA775 platform is excellent if you opt for an ATI graphic card. If you want an Nvidia graphic card, maybe you should look at the very good Asus P5N-E SLI, based on the better i650 chipset (Nvidia 5xx series = bad, 6xx serie = better).However, the Nvidia i650 is less energy efficient than the Intel P965P.

 

[Mercutio]

A couple thoughts on C2Ds:

1. The T4300 (low-end chip) overclocks even better than an E6300 and costs about $30 less. And I have yet to meet a low-end C2D that won't hit 3GHz/core - stable - on the stock cooling.
2. There's minimal difference between an E6300 and an E6400 at stock speeds. Certainly not $40 worth of difference, let alone $70 of difference with the T4300. There's the price difference between Intel and AMD right there... and that lowly T4300 will OC right past a C2D Extreme, too. I'm talking Celeron 300A, here. It's nuts.
3. There's also minimal difference between a stock C2D and a high-end x2 CPU. Give a system 2GB of RAM and you have to be doing some serious stuff to tell any difference at all. Why the hell are you upgrading, man?
4. Vista, if you're thinking about it, with 2GB of RAM feels about like XP on 1GB. Comfy but there is room for improvement. Also, Vista sucks anyway.
5. Most Intel systems have variable speed fans. I have no decided whether I like that or not. The stock retail cooler can get louder than I would like when the PC is working hard (gaming or video encoding, usually).
6. Also, the stock Intel cooler and CPU retention system on socket 775 is god-awful. The intel cooler does not have a fan guard. You have to be VERY CAREFUL with your wiring because wires and cables can directly foul the fan. The Socket 775 retainer is four very cheap-feeling pins that get pushed through the board.
7. On the other hand, I've never had a socket 775 CPU get pulled out of the socket when I took off the HSF...
8. Intel chipsets can be mixed and matched basically at will, which is a good thing.
9. Intel motherboards, awesome as they are, don't belong in a hobbyist's PC.

At the moment, I'm building both. My low-end box is STILL a socket 939 A64/3800 with DDR RAM. That machine is GODLY for the money.

 

[ddrueding]

When I was looking, the 5400+ (2.8Ghz) seemed to be the last reasonable chip before the prices skyrocketed ($269). That would place it between the T6500 (1.83Ghz) and T7200 (2.0Ghz) Intel chips. Is the C2D really that much faster clock for clock?

 

[Mercutio]

Yes.

A 2GHz E6400 was faster than a 2.6GHz Opteron (whichever one it was) the day they were released. It's apples and oranges per clock cycle and it's not even close to competitive. The only thing that AMD has is moderately good performance at lower-than-Intel pricing right now.

 

[ddrueding]

Good enough for me. Thanks Merc. If you were to build a high-end C2D box right now, which Gigabyte motherboard would you use?

 

[ddrueding]

So if the T4300 OC's like crazy, should I put the extra $150 into a T7200? Or somewhere else? I already have 4GB of RAM....

 

[Clocker]

Are you sure you're going to be able to use all 4GB of that RAM? Or, are you using x64?

Most people with 4GB installed are only able to use about 3GB with the rest of the memory addresses reserved for system devices (unless using x64)

 

[Mercutio]

Well, since I refuse to put any actual effort into overclocking - I use stock fans and the same memory (Corsair's Value RAM) all the time, the only thing I can tell you for sure is that everything seems to hit a wall at around 3.4GHz ("only" a 50% overclock on two chips). I've tried everything up to the E6700.
Worst case scenario: You buy the low-end guy, it doesn't work out and you put it in something you were going to build anyway.

I've been using the Gigabyte S3 board. Seems to be fine, though there's probably a better product out there for someone who gives a crap.

I have three dozen E6300s whirring along in my computer labs. Even if you aren't overclocking, those chips use less power and generate less heat than AMD's, so there's a compelling reason to look at them even setting aside speed.

 

[CougTek]

A T7200? What the Hell are you talking about? That's a C2D FOR LAPTOPS!

And the E6400 isn't clocked at 2.0GHz, but at 2.13GHz.

Merc is right about the value of the E4300, but only if you O'C it. At stock frequency, it's no better value than a X2 4600+.

An Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 Pro costs 20$ and is a major improvement over the stock Intel heatsink.

 

[Mercutio]

It only took 20 years for 130MHz to become a rounding error...

 

[CougTek]

Pentium 133MHz were in 1995 IIRC. So make that 12 years.

 

[Mercutio]

I was working from the introduction of the PC.
Although I guess we could say ~32 years dating from the first microprocessor.

 

[ddrueding]

Do I really need to spend $350 to get a Gigabyte C2D nVidia board?


My bad on the socket M/775 thing...I haven't built anything with these yet.

 

[ddrueding]

Are you sure you're going to be able to use all 4GB of that RAM? Or, are you using x64?

Most people with 4GB installed are only able to use about 3GB with the rest of the memory addresses reserved for system devices (unless using x64)

I will be using 64-bit Vista Ultimate, but I can get about 3.6GB from my system as it is (32-bit server 2003 R2)

 

[CougTek]

Do I really need to spend $350 to get a Gigabyte C2D nVidia board?

Nope, nobody suggested you should. I mentioned the Asus P5N-E SLI, which cost 140$.

 

[ddrueding]

This board looks nice.

 

[Handruin]

Check the prices of the 5000: I'm getting 5000s for near enough to the same price as the 4600s right now.

Good point, there is about a $30 USD difference for me. I still don't think the 5000 is as fast as the C2D though?

 

[Handruin]

On my price lists, there's a 36$CAN difference between the 4600+ and the 5000+, but only a 10$ difference between the 5000+ and the 5200+.

If I was to build a new AM2-based system right now, I wouldn't opt for the broken Nvidia 570 chipset. I would go with an AMD(ATI) Crossfire 3200 instead. As a bonus, it dissipates far less heat than the hungry Nvidia 570 SLI.

Your motherboard choice on the LGA775 platform is excellent if you opt for an ATI graphic card. If you want an Nvidia graphic card, maybe you should look at the very good Asus P5N-E SLI, based on the better i650 chipset (Nvidia 5xx series = bad, 6xx serie = better).However, the Nvidia i650 is less energy efficient than the Intel P965P.

What about the Nvidia 570 is broken? I currently have one and I haven't found it to be broken for all my needs (yet). Something about the Crossfire chipset makes me shiver...I just don't trust it yet.

Yes, for the LGA775, an ATI card would be used (something like a 1600 series). No serious gaming needs to apply to this system, but light moderate use is expected.

 

[Handruin]

A couple thoughts on C2Ds:

1. The T4300 (low-end chip) overclocks even better than an E6300 and costs about $30 less. And I have yet to meet a low-end C2D that won't hit 3GHz/core - stable - on the stock cooling.
2. There's minimal difference between an E6300 and an E6400 at stock speeds. Certainly not $40 worth of difference, let alone $70 of difference with the T4300. There's the price difference between Intel and AMD right there... and that lowly T4300 will OC right past a C2D Extreme, too. I'm talking Celeron 300A, here. It's nuts.
3. There's also minimal difference between a stock C2D and a high-end x2 CPU. Give a system 2GB of RAM and you have to be doing some serious stuff to tell any difference at all. Why the hell are you upgrading, man?
4. Vista, if you're thinking about it, with 2GB of RAM feels about like XP on 1GB. Comfy but there is room for improvement. Also, Vista sucks anyway.
5. Most Intel systems have variable speed fans. I have no decided whether I like that or not. The stock retail cooler can get louder than I would like when the PC is working hard (gaming or video encoding, usually).
6. Also, the stock Intel cooler and CPU retention system on socket 775 is god-awful. The intel cooler does not have a fan guard. You have to be VERY CAREFUL with your wiring because wires and cables can directly foul the fan. The Socket 775 retainer is four very cheap-feeling pins that get pushed through the board.
7. On the other hand, I've never had a socket 775 CPU get pulled out of the socket when I took off the HSF...
8. Intel chipsets can be mixed and matched basically at will, which is a good thing.
9. Intel motherboards, awesome as they are, don't belong in a hobbyist's PC.

At the moment, I'm building both. My low-end box is STILL a socket 939 A64/3800 with DDR RAM. That machine is GODLY for the money.

Let me address out of order. I'm not upgrading, I'm building a machine for someone else. This machine will leave my possession and hopefully never be seen again (because if I see it again, that means there's an issue). With that said, I'm slightly concerned with overclocking someone else's machine. If this were my own, I'd do as you suggested in a single heartbeat. I'd get the less expensive chip and push it right to 3.0 GHz. And saying that is something because I've never overclocked anything in my life but I would do it to a C2D.

This machine will not run vista, it ill have XP SP2. I don't want to deal with Vista support issues at this time since I've yet to install and use it myself.

Have you built anyone else a C2D and overclocked it for them with confidence it will be ok to leave your doorstep? The person my machine is for won't be able to troubleshoot those types of issues (if any were to arise). She also wants this machine to last a long time (5 years in her words)...but that's a whole different story.

 

[Handruin]

Are you sure you're going to be able to use all 4GB of that RAM? Or, are you using x64?

Most people with 4GB installed are only able to use about 3GB with the rest of the memory addresses reserved for system devices (unless using x64)

I don't know if this was for me, Merc, or dd, but if for me, it won't apply because I'm only spec'ing the system to have 2GB. Otherwise I would agree with you on the x64 side.

 

[Handruin]

I guess what this boils down to is that since this is for a customer, would you guys build a system and give it to them OC'd because the chip is ungodly overclockable?

Merc's comment that the e6300s at stock are worth considering. That might be a good enough argument to consider vs say the 4600+ (65w) or 5000+. At the very least I could push the e6300 up to the e6400 speed.

I haven't even considered the AMD Brisbane core because I read the caching is farked on it making it slower. Their shift to 65nm doesn't seem that great to me. none of you guys have even mentioned them either so I'm guessing they aren't really worth their money right now.

 

[CougTek]

The 570 chipset isn't really broken, except for the linkboost that does zip, nothing, but its overclocking potential is unimpressive. I could have sweared that I read somewhere that it still had the data corruption issues that plaggued the Nfarce 4 family, but I can't find the place where I saw this so maybe I'm confusing this with something else.

The Nvidia 5xx chipset series is mainly disappointing for the LGA platform, where it has very low overclocking potential compared to Intel's own chipsets.

Regarding the graphic card : the GeForce 7600GS is a better value than the X1650 Pro at the lower price point. However, the price difference between the comparable 7600GT and X1650XT is small, so I would opt for something like the HIS iSilence X1650XT if I was looking for a graphic card around 140U$-150U$. Just above that, the Asus EAX1950 Pro 256MB is a tremendous value at ~190U$.

 

[Handruin]

The 570 chipset isn't really broken, except for the linkboost that does zip, nothing, but its overclocking potential is unimpressive. I could have sweared that I read somewhere that it still had the data corruption issues that plaggued the Nfarce 4 family, but I can't find the place where I saw this so maybe I'm confusing this with something else.

The Nvidia 5xx chipset series is mainly disappointing for the LGA platform, where it has very low overclocking potential compared to Intel's own chipsets.

Regarding the graphic card : the GeForce 7600GS is a better value than the X1650 Pro at the lower price point. However, the price difference between the comparable 7600GT and X1650XT is small, so I would opt for something like the HIS iSilence X1650XT if I was looking for a graphic card around 140U$-150U$. Just above that, the Asus EAX1950 Pro 256MB is a tremendous value at ~190U$.

Hmm... I'll do some digging on the 570, I wasn't aware of issues, but it may be that I bought mine before they started cropping up (or I just missed them all together). Is the 590 in the same situation, or just the 570? The link boost (if it worked) seems to only apply to nvidia based graphics products. Since I have an ATI in my own system right now, it doesn't matter anyways that it is broken. The overclocking was never really a concern for me anyway, so maybe that's why this board appealed to me.

Thanks for the suggestions on the graphics cards, those are very helpful.

 

[Bozo]

Just purchased one of these:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813121053
It's somewhat cheaper than the AMD board you were looking at.

Put a Celeron on it and 2Gb RAM. I bought it as an 'Open Box' from Newegg. $72.00. Everthing seems to be working fine.

Bozo :joker:

 

[Clocker]

I have an Express 3200 chipset with uli U1575 southbridge & Toledo 4400+. I find it to be less stable than my old NF4 SLI setup. I get occasional BSODs with the ATi chipset whereas I never had a BSOD with the NF4 SLI chipset. Do the Catalyst drivers for my X1900 also contain the chipset drivers? I have had no luck finding xpress 3200 chipset drivers. The ULI drivers are easily found though.

But, this ATi chipset doesn't have issues with my SB X-Fi (SCDA is totally unplayable with static audio) like the nvidia chipsets do so I guess I'll take it. My understanding is that nVidia screwed up something with their PCI implementation not be at spec. or something.

The fact that my computer is, basically, fast enough and that I have 4GB of OCZ CAS2 DDR is keeping me from switching to C2D. Maybe I'll give x64 Vista a try for fun. I would guess superfetch or whatever it is called could make good use of 4GB under x64.

 

[Mercutio]

I'm not sure I'd sell an overclocked system to someone else unless they asked me to do it. In the case of current Core 2 Duos, that has less to do with the quality of the overclock and more to do with the possibility that at some point in the future they might lose their BIOS settings and wonder why their computer suddenly got vastly slower.

In building a system for someone else, they are more or less going to be completely happy with whatever they get. In all likelihood, a "slow" AMD or Intel chip will make them just as happy as a fast one. An X2/4200 or T4300 is going to be appreciated just as much as an X2/5000 or E6600. You're more or less free to base your decision on other factors in this case, because most people are never going to peg their CPU utilization anyway (e.g. reliable but boring Intel motherboard vs. sexy nVidia 6100 with more expansion options and better onboard graphics).

 

[Bozo]

Old system: P4, 3.14GHz; 1.5GB RAM; 2-WD Raptors in RAID 0; XP Pro.
New system: Celeron D, 3.46GHz; 2.0GB RAM; Single Raptor; XP Pro.

The new system feels faster (snappier??) Maybe it's just the fresh install of XP or the better supporting hardware for the CPU. There shouldn't really be any difference, but there is.

The point is, the new system you are building will feel ( and be) faster in spite of the hardware 'numbers'.

Bozo :joker:

 

[time]

A couple thoughts on C2Ds ...

Merc, that was a terrific post. Thanks.

 

[time]

As I've pointed out in another thread, Gigabyte uses far superior capacitors on the Intel CPU motherboard. The "D" in "DS3" stands for "Durability".

Therefore, I don't think your AMD option is worth it.

The E4300 looks like a great little CPU, but is anyone bothered by the lack of VT-x support?

 

[Bozo]

If you check the dates on those bad capacitor reports, most are quite old.
I would have thought it would be a non-issue by this time. The premium board manufacturers (Supermicro, Intel, etc) probably upgraded their capacitors 2 years ago. Everyboby else should have done so by now. If you have to question how good the capicitors on a particular motherboard now, maybe you should be looking at another manufacturer.

Bozo :joker:

 

[time]

Well, since I refuse to put any actual effort into overclocking - I use stock fans and the same memory (Corsair's Value RAM) all the time, the only thing I can tell you for sure is that everything seems to hit a wall at around 3.4GHz ("only" a 50% overclock on two chips).
...
I've been using the Gigabyte S3 board. Seems to be fine, though there's probably a better product out there for someone who gives a crap.

Just a warning: I have here a 4300 on a Gigabyte DS3 board that won't overclock more than 4.5% (209MHz). After reading everywhere how *anyone* can expect a huge overclock, I'd like to warn others. Frankly, I would have been better off with a similarly priced Athlon X2.

 

[Mercutio]

When Celeron 300As were all the rage, I must've set up 20 systems on Abit motherboards that ran at 450MHz. I had one that wouldn't go past 333MHz no matter what I did.

But, yeah, that's really disappointing.

 

[time]

O k a y . . .

I revisited it after a day and messed endlessly with the BIOS settings, and things seemed to work. After countless wasted hours, I came to the conclusion that the settings have little or no useful effect, and that overclocking had just started working for no apparent reason.

I have no idea what was going on - CPU and/or Northbridge heatsink thermal compound needed curing? CMOS needed clearing? Phase of the moon?

The bottom line is that it was unstable at 3300MHz (366 FSB) but happy at 3150MHz (350 FSB). As I said, no combination of advanced BIOS settings made a significant, repeatable difference, although that may be a reflection on the BIOS.

As a note to Sol, the Geil DDR667 dual-channel RAM seemed happy enough at 933MHz - not sure where you got the idea that it doesn't overclock ...

Anyway, I left it at 3000MHz (333 FSB) to include a healthy 5% safety margin, and despite the successful 40% Geil overclock, reduced the RAM multiplier to 2 to bring it back to the rated 667MHz.

So there you have it, up to 75% overclock with the motherboard and RAM in spec and default settings. Only a very, very tiny percentage of Celeron 300A were that good. :-o

 

[LiamC]

Is that the normal garden variety Geil, or special overclocker and/or low latency stuff?

That is just a damned awesome overclock

 

[time]

http://www.umart.com.au/newindex2.phtml?bid=2

As I said, it's a "Dual Channel" kit, and it does have heat spreaders :roll: but it's hardly low latency. For that, you need the DDR800 version, or the stuff from Patriot.

Please note that the price is in AU$ and includes 10% GST, so it would probably be about US$215.

 

[Sol]

I suspect the main difference between our experiences was that I was using DDR not DDR2 so you'd pretty much expect it to be totally different I guess.

It is good to hear that the current Geil overclockability is good, it was really the only reason I would ever have bought any other brand of RAM...

 

[Mercutio]

Took me all damned night but I got an E4300 to 3.825GHz @ 1.6V with a Scythe HSF to keep CPU temps in line. Seems stable. Played City of Heroes for about 90 minutes on it.
RAM is 1.8V Geil DDR2/800 @ 2.1V.
Machine won't boot with all banks filled, even if it's the same RAM.

 

[Mercutio]

I am not sure why but accesses to the optical drive on my highly overclocked machine bring the whole machine to a grinding halt. I've never seen a dual core system do that before.