dSLR thread

snowhiker

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If they are able to capture a large enough part of the astrophoto market it can be a profitable thing. Particularly if it starts being bundled with mounts and scopes.

Yeah that makes sense. Plus it's nearly the same camera with only some firmware changes.

I still haven't decided what I'm going to buy yet, it at all. I'd like to see if Nikon updated anything now that Canon has. Plus my job has entered a "fuck I can't stand it" phase once again so don't want to drop 2+ months of pay on a DSLR right now.
 

LunarMist

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If they are able to capture a large enough part of the astrophoto market it can be a profitable thing. Particularly if it starts being bundled with mounts and scopes.

Tweaked consumer cameras used for astrophotography are nothing new if you remember the 20Da. I think the 60Da may still be around. They are a very small part of a dwindling market compared to the normal versions of the cameras for terrestrial use. I'm not sure what the serious astro people use now, but perhaps a combination of DSLRs and special astro sensors.
 

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I rather suspect that the big manufacturers are looking hard at niche markets now. The massive sales party is over; people aren't queuing up to by the latest SLR the way they were 5-10 years ago, volumes are flat and margins very tight because of discounting. If you can come up with a niche all to yourself and fill it with a product mostly based on R&D you've already done for something else, there is a good little earner there for you.
 

LunarMist

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I rather suspect that the big manufacturers are looking hard at niche markets now. The massive sales party is over; people aren't queuing up to by the latest SLR the way they were 5-10 years ago, volumes are flat and margins very tight because of discounting. If you can come up with a niche all to yourself and fill it with a product mostly based on R&D you've already done for something else, there is a good little earner there for you.

Yes, it is very rough times ahead. I don't think Nikon or Canon will go under but they will shrink. I suspect the model changes will slow and there will be more of the minor updates like the D810A and 5Ds. I'm rather concerned that lens updates will decrease, though that has not yet come to pass.
 

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I'm not sure I agree. I would expect the pace of advancement to accelerate not slow. How else are you going to get people to upgrade? Rationing a few more MP and slightly better low light performance every refresh isn't working anymore.
 

ddrueding

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The paradigm needs to change I think. Most people are happy enough with the price and performance of the camera in their budget. Things will settle slowly, then there will be a price war without real innovation, then something else will take over.

Light field cameras? Video features?

And as far as lenses go, what else are we looking for? Faster, lighter, cheaper?
 

LunarMist

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Fair point Stereodude, but how are they going to fund the R&D in a shrinking market?

That's exactly my point. Sure the image processors (Digic, Expeed, Bionzic, etc.) will improve as they are related to mobile processors and the sensors will improve as the basic technology will be used in iPhones too, but the rest is not looking good.
 

Stereodude

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Fair point Stereodude, but how are they going to fund the R&D in a shrinking market?
By selling more cameras. ;-)

Frankly, I think the market is ripe for some disruptive technology. I have no idea what that is, but it always happens. Look at what happened to film.
 

Tannin

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But they are selling fewer cameras. The size of the market is shrinking and will shrink further. But your comment about a disruptive technology, absolutely, I agree. Mind you, the biggest single reason the camera makers are selling so few new units these days is a disruptive technology - it is called a "telephone". DSLRs are only mildly impacted by phone cams so far, but small compact cameras have been damn-near wiped out.
 

LunarMist

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But they are selling fewer cameras. The size of the market is shrinking and will shrink further. But your comment about a disruptive technology, absolutely, I agree. Mind you, the biggest single reason the camera makers are selling so few new units these days is a disruptive technology - it is called a "telephone". DSLRs are only mildly impacted by phone cams so far, but small compact cameras have been damn-near wiped out.

Actually the DSLR sales (including MILC) are dropping significantly for the past couple years. ASP is also decreasing.
 

snowhiker

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Shutter in modern DSLRs?

Modern SLRs can shoot video at up to 60 fps. The shutter doesn't open and close 60 times/second, the images are just captured off the sensor 60 times/second. So question?

Why do we need a shutter in a modern DSLR?

Can't the image processor just "grab" a pic after the shutter button is pressed?

Eliminating the shutter would save on mechanical cost/complexity of a camera and increase the possible burst rate from 10-12 (of current PRO bodies) to 20+. The only limiting factor would be data transfer rate from sensor to processor/buffer to memory card. And you wouldn't have the vibration from the shutter opening/closing 10 times/second effecting the shots.

Plus you could have real/actual shutter speeds of 1/8000 sec. Instead of a small slit traveling the length of the sensor for 1/200 to 1/300 sec resulting in sensor pixels only receiving light for 1/8000 sec.

Plus faster "shutter" speeds 1/16,000 or 1/32,000 or 1/64,000 of a second.

Am I missing some obvious reason for the need of shutters?

Discuss.
 

snowhiker

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You see to have forgotten about the mirror.

Right. Obviously the mirror needs to swing up and out of the way first. I should have mentioned that. But I was thinking, once the mirror is up, why can't the camera just grab the image off the sensor? If you have a 1Dx or D4s and shooting at 11 or 12 fps the mirror locks up anyways. So why does the shutter need to open/close 12 times/second. Can't the camera just "grab" shots off the sensor 12 times/second?

As mentioned up thread the camera makers need to come up with something "new." Can't the shutter be eliminated, at least in theory?

Is the shutter needed because if the sensor is exposed to too much light for too long it "degrades," looses "sensitivity," "burns in", etc?

Also big price drops on 5DIII and 6D.
 

Stereodude

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The mirror has to come back down though for the AF to refocus. I get your point though. I'm not sure what causes them to still require a mechanical shutter.
 

Howell

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If you are tracking a shot you might want to be able to see to keep it in frame. They could replace the mirror with a small screen but then you have another power drain and I'm not sure the refresh rates could keep up.
 

LunarMist

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Right. Obviously the mirror needs to swing up and out of the way first. I should have mentioned that. But I was thinking, once the mirror is up, why can't the camera just grab the image off the sensor? If you have a 1Dx or D4s and shooting at 11 or 12 fps the mirror locks up anyways. So why does the shutter need to open/close 12 times/second. Can't the camera just "grab" shots off the sensor 12 times/second?

As mentioned up thread the camera makers need to come up with something "new." Can't the shutter be eliminated, at least in theory?

Is the shutter needed because if the sensor is exposed to too much light for too long it "degrades," looses "sensitivity," "burns in", etc?

Also big price drops on 5DIII and 6D.

You need a global electronic shutter, which can create other image issues. Some MILCs have them, but the highest quality Sony (36MP) A7r doesn't have it. The shutter has to close and then reopen, which is slower than a DLSR and results in a horrid lag, not to mention that what you see in the EVF is always delayed. :( The MILF cameras are best suited to static of slow moving subjects.
 

snowhiker

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The mirror has to come back down though for the AF to refocus. I get your point though. I'm not sure what causes them to still require a mechanical shutter.

Me neither. At least not yet. I'm sure Lunar will explain the technical reasons.

The mirror has to come back down though for the AF to refocus.

If you are tracking a shot you might want to be able to see to keep it in frame.

Am I misunderstanding how modern SLRs work as far as what the mirror does during high frame rate shots? Does the mirror lock-up at 12 fps or does it actually go up and back down between shots?

The last SLR I have used was a film Minolta X-700 and I remember the "dream camera," a Nikon F3 w/MD4 motor drive. The F3 was crazy fast (for a film camera) @ 6 fps, but it achieved that w/mirror lock-up, hence my thinking that modern 11 or 12 fps cameras used mirror lock-up?

They could replace the mirror with a small screen but then you have another power drain and I'm not sure the refresh rates could keep up.

The Sony A7ii mirror-less camera has a 2.4mp OLED electronic viewfinder that replaces the mirror. So with higher rez OLED viewfinders, lower battery drain, and faster image processors so there is no image lag between viewfinder and sensor images I can see the mirror eventually going away on higher-end DSLRs.

You need a global electronic shutter, which can create other image issues. Some MILCs have them, but the highest quality Sony (36MP) A7r doesn't have it. The shutter has to close and then reopen, which is slower than a DLSR and results in a horrid lag, not to mention that what you see in the EVF is always delayed. :( The MILF cameras are best suited to static of slow moving subjects.

First of all, to keep this "safe for work," Please DO NOT GOOGLE "MILF cameras." Although I wouldn't mind finding a MILF with a couple of nice cameras and long lenses who can teach me how to use them.

Anyways... I have some reading to do regarding "global electronic shutters", and more reading here. First two articles I saw via Google. Probably more/better ones out there. So the problem is image sensors (CCD vs CMOS) and how they capture light and transform that into digital data.

You need a shutter to expose the sensor for 1/8000 sec (or whatever), the sensor "holds" that state, but reading the data from the sensor (due to how they currently work) takes longer, say 1/100 second to complete between shots. So you can't have a "live-view"/no-shutter camera because the sensor can't complete it's job in 1/8000 sec. The shutter acts as a buffer, giving the sensor time to dump it's data and get setup for the next shot.

The mirror-less Sony A7ii doesn't use a mirror (obviously) for auto-focus, but the camera has a shutter. So perhaps I have "the future of modern DSLRs" backwards. The mirror will be the first to go. A 4-6 MP OLED viewfinder will be indistinguishable, image quality wise, from TTL light being reflected up via the mirror and pentaprism to the viewfinder.

We can't have a shutter-less camera until image sensors and image processing is much faster.

I definitely need to do some reading on this but not now. I'm dead tired and I need to go to work in 11 hours so I better get to bed. ;)
 

LunarMist

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Me neither. At least not yet. I'm sure Lunar will explain the technical reasons.
Am I misunderstanding how modern SLRs work as far as what the mirror does during high frame rate shots? Does the mirror lock-up at 12 fps or does it actually go up and back down between shots?
The mirror rapidly moves up and down between each exposure at the normal framing rates. For example the 1DX will do 10 or 12 FPS (12 only at near max aperture) without mirror lockup. It does 14 FPS with jpegs and MLU.
 

LunarMist

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The Sony A7ii mirror-less camera has a 2.4mp OLED electronic viewfinder that replaces the mirror. So with higher rez OLED viewfinders, lower battery drain, and faster image processors so there is no image lag between viewfinder and sensor images I can see the mirror eventually going away on higher-end DSLRs.

The three main issues with EVF are image delay, battery drain, and limited contrast range of the EVF compared to the human eye looking through glass. They are a long way from resolving the limitations for significant outdoor action.

As well, Sony seems to be designed for dwarf-hands so the bodies are rather flimsy, have weird ergonomics, and perform poorly in harsh weather conditions. The fact that the cameras are made to a low price point does not help things. Apparently the emerging market is east Asia, and people like small, lightweight cameras with wide or short tele lenses and don't care about camera vibration from shutter shock or other tele concerns. The assumption is that when the main mirrorless weaknesses are acceptably mitigated, Nikon and Canon will start using the EVF. Most likely that would start in the lower grade bodies as the pros are most conservative, tend to shoot action and need good battery life.

First of all, to keep this "safe for work," Please DO NOT GOOGLE "MILF cameras." Although I wouldn't mind finding a MILF with a couple of nice cameras and long lenses who can teach me how to use them.

Apparently that means something rather different from MILC. :lol:
 

snowhiker

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The mirror rapidly moves up and down between each exposure at the normal framing rates. For example the 1DX will do 10 or 12 FPS (12 only at near max aperture) without mirror lockup. It does 14 FPS with jpegs and MLU.

Learn something new every day. The mirror actually returns in between each shot at 10-12 fps. Pretty amazing if you think about it.
 

LunarMist

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Learn something new every day. The mirror actually returns in between each shot at 10-12 fps. Pretty amazing if you think about it.

The EOS 1vHS was the first pro SLR to deliver 10FPS with a moving mirror. There have been older cameras like special pellicle mirror versions of the Nikon F2(H) and Canon F1 in the 1970s and then the EOS 1N RS (10 FPS) in the early 90s.
 

snowhiker

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DSLR Questions

Warning: Huge wall-o-text coming. Thanks for reading.

I'm slowly moving in the direction of actually buying something in the next 4-8 weeks. Maybe. I'm OCD & Wishy-Washy so that's actually pretty quick for me.

I'm buying a full-frame camera.

What I plan on shooting: Landscapes and nature. Artsy, such as interesting details of natural or architectural objects (not complete buildings). Time-lapses. Macro also a bit in the future. I'd like video but not a huge concern, 1080p @30 fps good enough. Maybe wildlife in the future but that requires different equipment so not something holding a lot of weight. No portraiture. No sports. No photo journalism. No family (if I can help it).

So Lunar, or anybody with info, I have three questions. Well three groups of questions. With more later.

1) Any guess on when Nikon is going to release it's "50MP" camera? Cost guesstimate, close/same price range as the Canon 5Ds/5DSr? Two version like the D800/D800e or just one like the D810? Price drops on D810 or D750 or D610 as a result?

I don't think I'll want to spend the cash needed to buy the 50MP camera, just wondering how it will effect the market. Or whether I get D610 now, then in 1-3 years later get the 50 MP bad-boy, or just get the D810 now and be done for a long time.

2) Talk about sensor pixel defects please. How common are dead/stuck pixels on camera sensors? Higher-end cameras=better sensor or crap shoot either way? How many bad pixels are normal? What's below/above average? Do cameras how options to deal with bad pixels? What are the options? Canon or Nikon have better firmware options for dealing with bad pixels. Any difference on how Canon/Nikon deal with/allow returns for x-number or bad/stuck pixels?

3) Any advantage/disadvantage from buying direct from Canon or Nikon? I'd be willing to pay a bit more to order direct if it means less hassles, no grey-market scams, warranty, extra goodies, etc. Also, any advice on EXTENDED warranties? What type if any? Buy it from who/where?

Thanks for reading.
 

LunarMist

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Warning: Huge wall-o-text coming. Thanks for reading.

I'm slowly moving in the direction of actually buying something in the next 4-8 weeks. Maybe. I'm OCD & Wishy-Washy so that's actually pretty quick for me.

I'm buying a full-frame camera.

What I plan on shooting: Landscapes and nature. Artsy, such as interesting details of natural or architectural objects (not complete buildings). Time-lapses. Macro also a bit in the future. I'd like video but not a huge concern, 1080p @30 fps good enough. Maybe wildlife in the future but that requires different equipment so not something holding a lot of weight. No portraiture. No sports. No photo journalism. No family (if I can help it).

So Lunar, or anybody with info, I have three questions. Well three groups of questions. With more later.

1) Any guess on when Nikon is going to release it's "50MP" camera? Cost guesstimate, close/same price range as the Canon 5Ds/5DSr? Two version like the D800/D800e or just one like the D810? Price drops on D810 or D750 or D610 as a result?

I don't think I'll want to spend the cash needed to buy the 50MP camera, just wondering how it will effect the market. Or whether I get D610 now, then in 1-3 years later get the 50 MP bad-boy, or just get the D810 now and be done for a long time.

2) Talk about sensor pixel defects please. How common are dead/stuck pixels on camera sensors? Higher-end cameras=better sensor or crap shoot either way? How many bad pixels are normal? What's below/above average? Do cameras how options to deal with bad pixels? What are the options? Canon or Nikon have better firmware options for dealing with bad pixels. Any difference on how Canon/Nikon deal with/allow returns for x-number or bad/stuck pixels?

3) Any advantage/disadvantage from buying direct from Canon or Nikon? I'd be willing to pay a bit more to order direct if it means less hassles, no grey-market scams, warranty, extra goodies, etc. Also, any advice on EXTENDED warranties? What type if any? Buy it from who/where?

Thanks for reading.

What do you have now?
 

snowhiker

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This guy is hilarious. I don't know if he knows his shit or is full of it, but he is entertaining.
 

LunarMist

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I could easily advise a lot of options, but what is you total budget? Are you planning to buy most of a system now, or just start and then have a certain budget per year?

I'd probably start with a D810 and 3-4 lenses. 50 MP will benefit most from only the best lenses unless you plan to crop. You'll have to decide on the compromise between versatility (zooms), highest IQ (typically primes), and cost.

Sony might work for you if weight is critical, but the A7 series is still immature. The lens lineup is inconsistent and full of gaps. Some of the lenses are not the greatest, though others are excellent. Most likely you'd need to wait a while for that system to fill out and/or use adapted lenses. Sigma will be producing lenses in FE mount, but that brings the while Sigma baggage. Overall, Sony is probably not the easiest option for somebody not in the game recently.

Buy from B&H or Adorama, etc. Refurbs from Canon are great (12 mo. warranty), but some people don't think Canon is the best bet for landscapes and nature in bad or super-contrast lighting situations. I find the 5DsR will easily work for me, though. Overall Canon probably has the best wide range of fine lenses for an OEM.
 

LunarMist

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This guy is hilarious. I don't know if he knows his shit or is full of it, but he is entertaining.

Nikon has not produced a new 135mm lens in about 25 years. I'm sure they will get around to it eventually, but the old-ish Canon 135/2 is good choice in that range if one is not interested in the manual focus Zeiss. The latter is a truly great lens and very close to truly APO, unlike most 135/2 lenses which suffer from the LoCA. It is also front focusing, so the focal length does not decrease much at MFD.

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/...meraComp=614&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=0
 

snowhiker

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Lunar, what are you feelings on 3rd party accessories for the D810. Two accessories I'd get sooner rather than later are the battery grip and GPS units.

Nikon GP-1A GPS Unit $250
Vs.
Precision Design GP-1 GPS unit $45.

Five times the price.

Nikon MB-D12 Multi Power Battery grip $439
Vs.
Vivitar MB-D12 Pro Series Multi-Power Battery Grip $55

Eight times the price.

Crazy price differences.
 

LunarMist

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I avoid 3rd part accessories as I've had some bad experiences with them. Nikon service is one of the worst and they like to claim the user has damaged the camera, especially due to false impacts.
I never use a GPS on the camera. I much prefer to travel with a good trail GPS and then sync the keeper files later. However, a 3rd party GPS is probably unlikely to cause problems as a grip could.
I never use a grip on any camera, though I might with the D810 due to the (modestly) improved framing rate.

Have you considered what will be the backup/second body?
 

snowhiker

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I'm really thinking that doesn't do anything I need very much. I have three 16-35s and the 17TSE, not to mention the 24 TSE II that is my favorite. I still need to bring a 24-70, 70-200, 100-400, etc. and can only carry a limited amount in my condition.

I moved this over to the DSLR thread instead of keeping it going in the Avast thread.

I kinda hope the Canon 11-24 tests poorly and is definitely not worth buying because I'll never be able to justify purchasing it. I "should" just buy the Nikon 20mm f1.8 instead of the Nikon 14-24mm f2.8, because I can't really justify that lens either and it's $1200 cheaper than the Canon 11-24.
 

LunarMist

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I moved this over to the DSLR thread instead of keeping it going in the Avast thread.

I kinda hope the Canon 11-24 tests poorly and is definitely not worth buying because I'll never be able to justify purchasing it. I "should" just buy the Nikon 20mm f1.8 instead of the Nikon 14-24mm f2.8, because I can't really justify that lens either and it's $1200 cheaper than the Canon 11-24.

The 11-24 is out now and a really fine lens by all accounts and tests. Check Cicala and also TDP, but I'm sure there will be others soon.
The 11-24 is $3K due to the construction. The lens contains 4 glass aspheric elements (including the front one that is 87mm in diameter), not to mention two fluorite and two other low dispersion elements. I can imagine that centering and piston are a challenge.

Consider the 16-35 VR. It's not as good as the Canon at shorter focal lengths, but still a decent lens.
 

snowhiker

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/wall-o-text warning.

I could easily advise a lot of options, but what is you total budget? Are you planning to buy most of a system now, or just start and then have a certain budget per year?

For my income level and unknown future level of interest in photography I __"should"__ start @ $1500 (DX + Kit lens), but I've set my initial purchase @ $2500 (D610 + 20mm f1.8). Although __realistically__ who am I kidding, I'll probably blow $4000+ to start (D810 + (nice zoom) or (2 primes)).

So in a round about, wishy-washy way I'm saying my initial budget would be $2500-4000. With added purchases every so often for accessories and eventually a Macro lens.

I'd probably start with a D810 and 3-4 lenses. 50 MP will benefit most from only the best lenses unless you plan to crop. You'll have to decide on the compromise between versatility (zooms), highest IQ (typically primes), and cost.

Sony might work for you if weight is critical, but the A7 series is still immature. The lens lineup is inconsistent and full of gaps. Some of the lenses are not the greatest, though others are excellent. Most likely you'd need to wait a while for that system to fill out and/or use adapted lenses. Sigma will be producing lenses in FE mount, but that brings the while Sigma baggage. Overall, Sony is probably not the easiest option for somebody not in the game recently.

Buy from B&H or Adorama, etc. Refurbs from Canon are great (12 mo. warranty), but some people don't think Canon is the best bet for landscapes and nature in bad or super-contrast lighting situations. I find the 5DsR will easily work for me, though. Overall Canon probably has the best wide range of fine lenses for an OEM.

Weight not an issue. Not interested in Sony at this point in time. I'll probably never buy a Canon or Nikon lens above the 100mm or 105mm macro size. Well I can conceivably see myself buying an 80-400mm f4.5-5.6 or 100-400mm f4.5-5.6, but realistically any advantage Canon has over Nikon from the 105mm mark and above is a moot point for me. Ultra wide, to wide, to normal, to portrait is all the reach I'll need/want for now.

Yeah, I'll currently leaning toward a (D810 + 20mm f1.8g + 50mm f1.8g) or (D810 + 16-35mm f4) and that would be $1500 more than what I should spend to start. I'd have a bit more wide angle and versatility with the zoom, but I'd lose 2-1/3 stops. Low light/night shots are something I'd like to "play around with" a bit so f1.8 would be nice. Not critical but something to think about.

I wish Nikon would update their 15 year old 14mm f2.8 and lower the price as it's totally not worth the cost when it's only a couple hundred less than the better/sharper 14-24. The 14-24 is least sharp at 24mm @ f2.8 @ corner. And that point is sharper than the 14mm at f4 or f5.6 in the CENTER.

I'd also need a decent tripod, a tabletop tripod, a cheapo "this bag holds crap NOT worth stealing" bag, camera strap/harness that also doesn't yell "please steal me" and a few SD cards (these 64GB SD cards are $35. Or here.) Those PNY cards seem decent as charted here. I won't be shooting landscape shots at 5 FPS so speed not a real issue. Capacity, reliability, cost are important.

I avoid 3rd part accessories as I've had some bad experiences with them. Nikon service is one of the worst and they like to claim the user has damaged the camera, especially due to false impacts.
I never use a GPS on the camera. I much prefer to travel with a good trail GPS and then sync the keeper files later. However, a 3rd party GPS is probably unlikely to cause problems as a grip could.
I never use a grip on any camera, though I might with the D810 due to the (modestly) improved framing rate.

Have you considered what will be the backup/second body?

My photography will simply be a hobby with ZERO income generation. In fact it will be a financial drain, so a backup/second body will not be purchased anytime soon or ever. If I stick with it, AND enjoy it, AND can afford it, AND wanted to try something new, I'd buy the next generation body as an upgrade. Or maybe a DX body with something like the new 80-400mm or Tamron/Sigma 150-600mm for wildlife photography, but that's way in the future. Side note. Unless I win the lottery or find a sugar-mamma I'll NEVER, EVER, EVER be able to afford ANY Nikon/Canon Telephoto lens 300+mm or f4.0 or faster. EVER.

I'd want the grip for extra battery power and easier verticals. Plus, I admit it, ePeen, as it makes the camera all big and curvy and sexy. The girls must love your 1Dx. LOL.

I'd want the GPS for Geo Tagging of course. But I'd want to also do some fun things with it. Such as "mount" a camera to my chest and just walk a nature trail and have camera take a shot every 2, 3, 5, 10 seconds or whatever and have a GPS track of the shots. Or mount the camera to an open car window and drive a scenic highway and do the same thing.

When I start to accumulate a collection of "not-total-crap" shots I'd have some prints made at various sizes 8x10, 8x12, 11x14, 12x18, 16x20, 16x24, or 24x36 (assuming a D810, 16x24=300dpi, 24x36=200dpi). Then mount and frame them for a large empty wall I have. A map of SW U.S. with all my shots indexed on it would be cool.

Gotcha, regarding third-party accessories. I'll just spread out the added "bling" over the weeks and months.

And again much thanks for answering my questions.

Holly OCD. I've beed editing this post for 2+ hours. Sigh.
 
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LunarMist

I can't believe I'm a Fixture
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Don't put more than about half of the budget into a camera. Save for lenses. More comments later.
 

snowhiker

Storage Freak Apprentice
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Don't put more than about half of the budget into a camera. Save for lenses. More comments later.

Sensible advice of course.

My purchases will be spread out a bit and I'll add lenses, filters, accessories, etc as I progress. I may initially go "top-heavy" with a premium body, but the ratio will work itself out after the accessories and another lens or two are purchased.
 

LunarMist

I can't believe I'm a Fixture
Joined
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Messages
17,497
Location
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Well the site is pretty much worthless when it is running, so not much is lost. :D
 
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