dSLR thread

LunarMist

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Yes. Noise is not a concern for me at this time. Like DD I'm just trying to take a decent shot FIRST and worry about the esoteric aspects later on down the road some time............maybe.........if I ever get there.

Edit: Discuss, Learn, and enjoy information regarding the esoteric aspects of photography now, but worry about them waaaaaaaaaaay later.

Have you joined a photo club or other group that will help you learn?
I'd expect many people here to have science degrees with some physics/electronics background, so the technical side would be easier to understand and control than the artistic part.
 

ddrueding

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I don't have a degree, but science in general (physics in particular) are a fairly deep hobby. It certainly helps. I'd love to be part of a club, but don't have enough time to make any kind of commitment.
 

snowhiker

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It's a rather cheap lens, so don't expect too much. The 80-400 and D7200 are not bad for reach and practicality. Use your D610 when the subjects are closer.
The 300/4 is a small/light specialty lens. I suggest buying a variety of other lenses first.

My enthusiasm is back. The 200-500mm is better than the 80-400 according to Camera Labs. It's just one review so far, and maybe they received an exceptional copy of the lens, but I'm happy nevertheless. It's even decent with the 1.4x TC.

And like Lunar mentioned it's a cheaper lens so don't expect much. And I wasn't really. It's just over half the price of the 80-400mm (but NO gold ring, nano-coat, etc) so I wasn't expecting miracles. I was hoping for "almost as good as the 80-400 @ 400mm" for half the price and I'm happy. But better results? I'm buying.

As far as buying other lenses go I'd like something from 35mm to 70mm (maybe up to 85mm). I wish Nikon made a modern "G" version of their old 35-70 f/2.8. That would pair nice with my 16-35mm lens.

It's an interesting discussion Snowhiker; my pleasure to be a part of it.

To the latter yes, exactly. To the former, almost. Shot noise is the consequence of the quantum nature of light.

And I appreciate your insight and knowledge.

Ah, quantum mechanics. Particle or wave? Dual-slit experiment. Schrödinger's Cat. Many Worlds vs Copenhagen Interpretation. Fun stuff. Like DD, I've been a physics "hobbyist" going on 30 years now, read a couple dozen books, etc. Love it. I only have one semester of calculus under my belt so I don't understand any of the mathematics but love reading about it.


1: just reduce the shutter speed and take more shots in the hope that at least one of them will be sharp enough. This is worth doing if you are stuck. Especially with an IS/VR lens, it works quite often. You can't rely on it, it's a bit like putting 50c on 15 different slow horses at 100 and 200 to 1 odds, but it can be worth a try. Electrons are cheap!

2: think of some creative way to steady the camera: lean against a tree, place it on a conveniently-situated rock, anything!

3: use a shorter lens and get closer! This isn't always an option, but if you are able to get close to the subject you can cut the shake way, way down with a short lens. Even without IS/VR, most people can reliably hand-hold sharp pictures at 1/10th of a second using a 10mm lens (16mm in FX format) where you need something like a 30th at 50mm and perhaps a 100th or a 200th with a tele. Obviously, you can't swap in a 10-22 instead of a 100-400, but you very often can swap a 10-22 in for an 18-70 and carry on shooting. (Your actual shake is pretty much fixed, where the effect of that shake in terms of angular motion through the subject (= blur) is relative to focal length.)

4: use a bigger sensor. All else being equal, an FX sensor delivers two or three stops less shot noise than a DX sensor, simply because it is bigger and captures more light. Of course, it costs more, weighs more, and takes a more expensive lens. No free lunch!

4b: there are also good arguments to suggest that lower-resolution sensors with fewer, larger sites produce lower-noise results. Be very, very careful accepting these uncritically! Nearly always, the proponent does the brain-dead thing and compares 100% crops, which is like saying bananas are much more expensive in Mexico because a pound of them costs 40 pesos in Tijuana where you can buy a pound of bananas in Boston for only $15 US. After you cull out the stupidities, this whole theme becomes much less clear-cut. Let's just say that there are some good arguments both for and against and move on to more productive ground.

5: use flash. You don't have to white-out a scene with loads of complicated flash gear! Sometimes, just a little bit of fill flash is all it takes to make a huge difference. The trick is to use the natural light and just help it out a little. Your total exposure time doesn't change very much, but the flash-lit part of your subject is nice and sharp because the duration of the flash is very short. You've still got naturalish colours and no-one notices that the background isn't quite sharp.

Good tips. #1, 2 and 3 are low tech solutions and should be used all the time anyways. Thanks for the reminder to focus on the fundamentals and get those correct first before using fancy tricks.

Have you joined a photo club or other group that will help you learn?
I'd expect many people here to have science degrees with some physics/electronics background, so the technical side would be easier to understand and control than the artistic part.

I guess my point that I was trying to make was that I need to take better pictures and worry MORE about subject, composition, lighting, etc. and worry LESS about shot/read noise, ISO, etc. Master the fundamentals first then further improve the shot by fixing the technical errors.

I don't have a degree, but science in general (physics in particular) are a fairly deep hobby. It certainly helps. I'd love to be part of a club, but don't have enough time to make any kind of commitment.

This, as I mentioned above. I'm a physics hobbyist also.
 

Tannin

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Physics. Yep, guilty as charged, gentlemen.

I have bouts of physics reading every few years. I'm in another one just at the moment. Well, physics/chemistry/cosmology, they all merge after a while. This particular infection came about from incautiously refreshing my memory about how atomic bombs work, possibly in the wake of Hiroshima Day. That leads by easy stages to the peculiarities of the extraordinary menagerie of transuranic elements and their properties. And then one feels impelled to switch over to the other end of the periodic table and work through the basics of the familiar, followed by the unfamiliar ones. (Why is water such strange stuff? Why does neodymium make the stongest magnets? (Ans: it doesn't - a "neodymium magnet" is mostly iron with a dash of boron and, these days, a bit of praseodymium which is more expensive to discover and refine but cheaper because it's not wanted for anything else much.) And where do these things come from in the first place? Before you know it, we are off into the fascinating universe of stellar nucleosynthesis, the S process, the R process and why quasars do weird stuff. This leads us back to cosmic rays, which in turn leads to radio-carbon dating (vital stuff for anyone who wants to understand things like the extinction of all Australia's large mammals) and thus to OSL and uranium-thorium dating, and hey presto! we are back on the heavy elements again.

... I daresay it will wear off after a while.
 

snowhiker

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At least it's not the 200-400.

:scratch:

I just woke up so many I'm not getting it yet, but what are you referring to Lunar? DD doesn't have the 200-400 .................. yet. I mentioned the Nikkor 200-500 f/5.6E but I don't think that's it either. Are you referring to the misadventure that fell upon you 5DsR? And you are glad the 200-400mm didn't join the 5DsR in it's tumble down the mountain?

Anyways THIS looks interesting. If it was 15mm (or wider) I'd buy it in a second. I'd also buy a 35-70mm f/2 ART (if/when) it comes out immediately as well.
 

snowhiker

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I did not mean your 100-400 II, but rather it was a general example of an expensive lens. And stop calling it an f/4. :D

I swear I'm not doing it on purpose ;)

I guess DD isn't a gear-whore, at least DSLR-wise.


Few question, which I keep forgetting to ask, regarding "aperture crop" using DD's 100-400 f/4.5-5.6 as an example. His 7Dii is a crop sensor with a 1.6x factor so the reach of this lens is approx 160-640mm.

1) You also have to apply the crop factor to the aperture as well, correct?

2) So @ 400mm his lens is f/5.6 times 1.6x = f/9?

3) Or is it 1.6 stops slower f/9.5'ish?

4) Or is the "aperture crop" some different scaling factor? Common rule, or depends on the lens?

5) Is just the amount of light effected or is there a depth of field change as well because of the smaller "aperture crop?"

6) The added "crop-reach" would also dictate a higher minimum shutter speed to capture a sharp image also? So 1/640 of a second needed, assuming the 1/mm rule?
 

snowhiker

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Get your huge grains of salt ready...


Canon EOS-1D X Mark II spec list.

Nikon D5 spec list.


"61pt AF "all crosstype & f/8" and "16fps with AF/20fps in liveview" are a Canon birders/wildlife shooters dream. While the 15fps and native high ISO of 102,400 for the D5 are extra yummy as well.
 
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LunarMist

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I guess DD isn't a gear-whore, at least DSLR-wise.


Few question, which I keep forgetting to ask, regarding "aperture crop" using DD's 100-400 f/4.5-5.6 as an example. His 7Dii is a crop sensor with a 1.6x factor so the reach of this lens is approx 160-640mm.

1) You also have to apply the crop factor to the aperture as well, correct?

2) So @ 400mm his lens is f/5.6 times 1.6x = f/9?

3) Or is it 1.6 stops slower f/9.5'ish?

4) Or is the "aperture crop" some different scaling factor? Common rule, or depends on the lens?

5) Is just the amount of light effected or is there a depth of field change as well because of the smaller "aperture crop?"

6) The added "crop-reach" would also dictate a higher minimum shutter speed to capture a sharp image also? So 1/640 of a second needed, assuming the 1/mm rule?

Forget the nonsense. Apertures are apertures. Focal length is focal length. The crop is just that a large portion of the image circle is not used, which reduces the angle of view.
 

ddrueding

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Get your huge grains of salt ready...


Canon EOS-1D X Mark II spec list.

Nikon D5 spec list.


"61pt AF "all crosstype & f/8" and "16fps with AF/20fps in liveview" are a Canon birders/wildlife shooters dream. While the 15fps and native high ISO of 102,400 for the D5 are extra yummy as well.

20MP should be enough for anybody? I expected them to hold at closer to 50MP.
 

LunarMist

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I think it would be for PJ sports, and event work.
Most were expecting closer to 24MP as the next logical progression.
 

mubs

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IQ from the NIKKOR 200-500MM F/5.6E AF-S ED VR seems good. With a DX body that's 750mm of reach for a decent price.
 

snowhiker

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I think it would be for PJ sports, and event work.
Most were expecting closer to 24MP as the next logical progression.

Thanks for the heads up Lunar. Lunar's other reply to my "1D X mark II" post when I accidentally posted in it another thread:

Birders/wildlife shooters want more pixels. Many are still using the 1D IV due to the low-resolution of the 1DX.
AFAIK, none of the Canon lenses can manage more than 10FPS with aperture control anyway, and everyone does not shoot wide open all the time.
Canon has been on a downhill roll lately, so who knows if they will pull a bonehead move.
Anyway, this belongs in the DSLR thread.

Interesting and good to know.

All modern Canon lenses AFAIK have electronic aperture control correct? Nikon is just starting to upgrade their lenses to "E" series. And the Canon's still have trouble over 10 FPS? Interesting.

I thought the birders needed fast AF, high ISO performance and FPS. I also thought big glass gets them close enough to not need high megapixel count. Then again you have to crop a lot....Hmmmm

Don't think the flagship models are ever going to be at the top of the megapixel race when ISO and FPS are important to the Sports/events shooters.

And as far as downhill roll, I think Nikon is running down the hill even faster. The new 24-70mm f/2.8E delayed, 300mm F/4E PF recalled and reissued, 200-500m f/5.6E small batch recalled for firmware update of AF issue, D600 oil, D750 flare issue, D800, etc, etc.
 

snowhiker

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20MP should be enough for anybody? I expected them to hold at closer to 50MP.

Canon has their 50 MP cameras the 5Ds and 5Ds R. If you put 50 MP in the "pro" body then people would only have to buy ONE camera.....Duuuuuuuuuuuuh. ;)

IQ from the NIKKOR 200-500MM F/5.6E AF-S ED VR seems good. With a DX body that's 750mm of reach for a decent price.

I'm probably going to picking up this lens as it seems to be way better than the price indicates. I was also considering the 300mm f/4E PF + 1.4x TCiii but that's $1000 more. Smaller and lighter, yes, but less reach also.

It's finally starting to cool off around here so I can get out and shoot something soon.
 

Tannin

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"Reach", which is another word for detail resolution, has nothing to do with crop factor or sensor size. For any given lens quality and focal length, detail resolution depends on the spacing of the pixels on the sensor. (As a matter of detail, they are properly called "pixels" only when we are reproducing the image, a camera's "pixels" are actually called photosites and there are several of them to each "pixel", but never mind that, it's not relevant in this context.)

Simply, the closer together the pixels are, the better the detail resolution, but this involves significant trade-offs in one or more of dynamic range, noise, and colour reproduction. For long distance work (birding is an example) the 1DX is generally regarded as lacking in resolution. A good measure of pixel spacing is the number per square millimetre. The 1DX has 20,744, slightly more than an elderly 1D III (19,178 ) or ancient 10D (18,641), rather less than a 20D or a 5D II (both around 20,300) and significantly less than a 1D IV or 40D (both around 30,800). For comparison, a 5D III has 25,600, and a 5Ds 58,242, which is a little more than a 7D Mark 1 or 60D (both 53,920) and almost exactly the same as a 7D II or 70D (both 59,410).

My birding camera of choice remains the 1D IV. If I was in a position to throw away all my lenses and start afresh, I'd consider the Nikon options also (with which I am not familiar at present - what would be the point without a spare truckload of money?) but not Pentax or Sony because of their lack of true IS/VR. (Pentax doesn't have the lenses either. Sony might have some these days, they didn't a few years back but that might have changed now.)

PS: mention your non-Canon models of interest and I'll post their reach figures too.
 

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(As a matter of detail, they are properly called "pixels" only when we are reproducing the image, a camera's "pixels" are actually called photosites and there are several of them to each "pixel", but never mind that, it's not relevant in this context.)
For a typical Bayer type sensor there is one photosite per pixel. The data from multiple photosites is used to generate the RGB data for each pixel, but the photosite to pixel ratio is usually 1:1.
 

ddrueding

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I think it would be for PJ sports, and event work.
Most were expecting closer to 24MP as the next logical progression.

45MP or so would allow capturing 8k video (7680x4320). That strikes me as the place to be in the next couple years (in a properly competitive marketplace).
 

ddrueding

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Processing 9999 RAWs at the moment. In case anyone was wondering, the interval timer built into the 7DII stops after 9999 shots even if "continuous" is selected and you have 2x 128GB cards in there. I need to get a faster computer or find a way easily farm out some of the processing to another machine. I know Premiere and Solidworks can do this...need to do some homework.
 

snowhiker

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Processing 9999 RAWs at the moment. In case anyone was wondering, the interval timer built into the 7DII stops after 9999 shots even if "continuous" is selected and you have 2x 128GB cards in there. I need to get a faster computer or find a way easily farm out some of the processing to another machine. I know Premiere and Solidworks can do this...need to do some homework.

Update? Has your computer melted from processing 9999 RAW files yet?

Perhaps the 9999 limit is related to the arbitrary 29m59s video recording limit put in place to prevent the E.U. 4.9-12.5% tax on video equipment?
 

snowhiker

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Wants vs Needs.

Well the Nikkor 24-70 f/2.8E ED VR is back in stock at B&H Photo. $2400.

That's a huge chunk of change for a lens that reportedly not all that much better than the old f/2.8G lens. VR is nice, but it's bigger and heavier with a filter diameter of 82mm vs 77mm. I'll have to research other alternatives to see if the price premium is worth it. The 24-70mm G lens is $500 cheaper.

The Nikkor 200-500 f/5.6E ED VR is still out-of-stock everywhere. It's only $1400.

If this lens is as good as it seems to be Nikon should have just added their Nano coat and gold ring and priced the thing at $2k. Looks like a big seller.
 
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Tannin

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82mm filters are a pain in the backside. I like VR, but I'd be tempted to look for the old one. All of my main lenses (500/4 aside) take 77mm filters. It's just so much easier to have them all the same.
 

snowhiker

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For long distance work (birding is an example) the 1DX is generally regarded as lacking in resolution. A good measure of pixel spacing is the number per square millimetre. The 1DX has 20,744, <snip> significantly less than a 1D IV or 40D (both around 30,800)

Until I just looked it up I didn't know the 1D iv was an APS-H (1.3x) crop camera!?! So even with 2MP less resolution it beats the full frame 1D X as far as "reach" goes. My OCD should have caught that earlier. ;)

PS: mention your non-Canon models of interest and I'll post their reach figures too.

I'd like the "reach" numbers for my 24MP Nikon D610 and the 36MP D810, 24MP (crop) D7100/7200 for comparison. Much THXs.

82mm filters are a pain in the backside.

The Nikkor 200-500 f/5.6E takes 95mm filters and will be my next lens purchase. I've linked 95mm UV and Clear filters sorted low to high price.

Any advantage using a UV filter (however small) in the digital camera age or are those a vestige of the ole film days and not needed or doesn't matter? Is multi-coating a must? Any recommendations?

And YES I will need a filter as I'm one clumsy MoFo. I'll be shooting in a dessert/sandy/gritty environment or I'll either scratch the front element from too much cleaning (OCD again) or fingerprints, etc, etc.

Seems both the 200-500 f/5.6E and the Nikon AF-S Teleconverter TC-14E III are out-of-stock just about everywhere also. Of course the lens I'd like to buy is OOS. Sigh.

On second thought why buy a $500 TC when a used D7100 is only $600.
 

Tannin

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I'll answer in two parts, Snowhiker.

First, I am not remotely a fan of clear/UV/etc. filters for normal use. What is the point of buying a $2000 lens and then sticking a bit of glass in front of it? Every extra layer of glass reduces your IQ. The only time I'd make exceptions is where the physical conditions are really nasty. Heavy wind-blown sand and heavy salt spray are the two that come to mind. I wouldn't count a desert environment as a harsh one (and I've been in lots). Seaside is the main one that worries me - that combination of sand, wind, and sat water is pretty nasty. With that said, I've used my lenses in very harsh conditions for many years and never had a major problem - certainly no hint of sand abrasion. Most better quality lenses are weather sealed anyway (not sure about the 200-500/5.6 VR) and even the salt won't do too much harm once in a while so long as you are careful about promptly washing it off in fresh water. (Not with a tap or a bowl, rinse with a clean, soaking wet tea towel, dry with another, allow to stand somewhere in a warm, dry, well-ventilated place. No hu-hu.

The main risk to your lens (unless you are a complete klutz with no care, which you are not) is impact damage scratching or smashing the front element. (A rock, for example.) A filter will only protect you against moderate impacts. Minor impacts do nothing - lenses are quite tough and in any case you have to do massive damage to the front element to make any actual difference to the IQ. See here http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2008/10/front-element-scratches for an extreme example. And major impacts will usually smash both filter and lens anyway, so the filter most likely won't help.

What will help is a decent lens hood; one like the standard Nikkor accessory for the 200-500 is ideal. It is really, really difficult to find a way to damage the front element if you have the hood on; it takes significant creativity and a klutz factor up around warp factor 9. And anyway, the hood improves your IQ, often significantly improves it, by keeping stray light out of the picture where a filter degrades the picture.

Simple rule for both IQ and safety: never take the hood off, never put the filter on.

And with all that said, if you must put a filter on that lovely lens, don't even think about a cheap one! Cheap filters are .... look, you'll see Mercutio buying Western Digital hard drives and Dave D driving a Mahindra before you'll see me using a cheap filter as a drink coaster, never mind putting it on a bloody lens. The maths is quite simple: $30 filter + $2000 lens = $200 lens.

Listen to any recommendation of Lunar's here, he's good on this stuff, but my view is that any filter made by B+W will be a darn good one. Even within their range I don't skimp. I don't use clears anymore but I do use CPLs and the B+W ones are worth every penny. If you must have one, I'd go so something like the $195 B+W.

Oh, and UV is of no consequence to modern digital cameras. They don't even know it's there. Nor do you need a skylight filter or similar: like UV ones, they are for film cameras (which don't have any white balance short of using a different brand of film).
 

Tannin

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OK, some numbers, all in px/mm2.

Nikon D610: 28,041
Nikon D800, D810: 41,960
Nikon D7100: 65,466
Nikon D3, D70: 14,009
Nikon D300, D5000: 32,751

(Of those, just looking at the density numbers and ignoring anything else I might happen to know or not know about the cameras, I'd pick the D800/D810 for bird photography. To get the figures, I use the dimensions cited in the DPR review for the sensor size, then plug the specs into Quattro Pro. Yes, Quattro Pro. Welcome to the 20th Century. Come on in, the water is fine. Be with you in a minute, I just have to send a couple of faxes.)
 

Tannin

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Oh, and I wouldn't expect too much out of an f/5.6 lens and a teleconverter. If you can get focus at all it will be sloppy and very slow. Even with a pro-grade camera ($5,000ish) AF at f/8 is lousy. And you can only use it in really good light. Rule of thumb, don't bother with a teleconverter with anything less than an f/4 lens. Don't bother with a 2x converter unless you have an f/2.8 lens.

I have pro-grade gear (best-available stuff: 500/4L and bodies to match) and I sold my hardly-ever-used 2x converter (to a chap with a 70-200/2.8) and seldom even use the 1.4 now. These days I almost always use the bare 500 on the 1D IV. What I lose on the reach I more than make up on the faster shutter speeds and instant focus. Only for well-lit static things like distant waterbirds do I go to the converter or swap bodies to the 7D, or sometimes do both if the light is good enough.

Our nature is always to reach for the magic answer (teleconverters, longer lenses, new cameras) but the correct answer is nearly always "stop trying to buy your way to a result and work harder on getting closer to the bird". (Which is not to say that good gear doesn't matter!)
 

snowhiker

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Great advice. Thanks Tannin.

This.

Much thanks. I already know Lunar is going to beat me over the head with a 200-500mm lens if I put a filter on it. And I agree with you 95%, but I am really clumsy, yes that clumsy, so I'll probably go without filter unless wind/rain are in the forecast, or I have too many "close calls." Plus the lens is only $1400 so any "good" filter will add a lot to the cost. A big HELL YES to always using the lens hood.

Thanks for the "reach" numbers.

I was only really considering a 1.4x TC if I went with the Nikkor 300mm f/4E PF lens. But the IQ of the 200-500mm f/5.6E is really outstanding for being a non-pro lens and only $1400. So that will be more than enough for my non-pro self. And if I pick up a crop body, such as the D7100/7200 I'll be more than set.

Still a bit too warm for walking around the dessert all day taking shots but should be cooler in a few weeks.
 
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