ddrueding
Fixture
Thanks guys. I had done the math wrong and thought that the 1.6x factor would allow longer exposures, not shorter. Thanks for catching that.
Too many of the photos don't look so good to me, especially the weird lateral blurring. The repairs and patches are good enough I guess, but the basic design is obviulsy flawed. The question is whether Canon will shift to a new/revised model sooner than the typical 3-year cycle.
e_dawg
Storage Freak
Strangely enough, you'd be surprised at how many people say it's wrong, and that it's 1/f and the FLM or "crop" factor does NOT apply.
On the DCRP Nikon SLR forum, one thread was going on for pages with only me and a couple other members arguing that the FLM does apply. A surprising number of people did not believe that, and there were several technically inclined members that had numerous scientific reasons as to why we were wrong. I finally quoted from a few webpages and provided links for others to read... not a single person replied after that.
But after searching a while for definitive sources on the Internet, it appears that this topic is quite poorly covered on the Net, with only a few sites reminding people about the FLM when it comes to the minimum recommended shutter speed for handheld, and even fewer offering an explanation as to why.
ddrueding
Fixture
There hasn't been that much discussion about it here, and I'm convinced. In fact, I don't know how you could logically think it didn't matter.
Gilbo
Storage is cool
Since a cropped sensor is just that, a crop of the frame, I don't see why you'd need to multiply the shutter speed. If the photo is clear, a crop of it would be clear as well (at any given pixel density).
Of course, as digital sensors begin to significantly out-resolve film (in a pixel density/size of grain sense), many of these equations will have to be re-evaluated. For example the circle of confusion is considered constant in depth of field equations (fixed against film grain). As the resolution of digital sensors change the circle of confusion changes as well --it's not constant at all in the digital era. On close inspection it would be perfectly reasonable to expect to observe different depth of field effects on a 21 MP full frame camera than on, for example a 12 MP full frame camera.
The calculation for camera shake depends on a similar assumption regarding the resolving power of the sensor (and the entire optical system actually) which is no longer true. A given amount of camera shake may be visible on inspection on a 21MP capture that is invisible on a 10MP capture.
Of course, as digital sensors begin to significantly out-resolve film (in a pixel density/size of grain sense), many of these equations will have to be re-evaluated. For example the circle of confusion is considered constant in depth of field equations (fixed against film grain). As the resolution of digital sensors change the circle of confusion changes as well --it's not constant at all in the digital era. On close inspection it would be perfectly reasonable to expect to observe different depth of field effects on a 21 MP full frame camera than on, for example a 12 MP full frame camera.
The calculation for camera shake depends on a similar assumption regarding the resolving power of the sensor (and the entire optical system actually) which is no longer true. A given amount of camera shake may be visible on inspection on a 21MP capture that is invisible on a 10MP capture.
ddrueding
Fixture
If the image the lens projected was still full-frame, and the sensor only picked up a crop of it, I could understand that reasoning. But I was under the impression that the sensor's distance from the lens was adjusted to still catch the entire projected image.
Arrrrggggghhhhhhh!
ddrueding
Fixture
(scrambles to read up on the topic to figure out what I said) :crap:
ddrueding
Fixture
ddrueding
Fixture
Understandable. He's good at something, and I'm a beginner. The way I learn is not always compatible with everyone. I try to make statements based on what I think I know, and welcome people to correct me. This can be interpreted as me pretending to know more than I actually do.
I'm learning too and I recognize lunar as being one of our many resident knowledge base for photography. However, I've read numerous times where he seems frustrated with you and suggests you take a class or read a book. I thought we were all here to be friendly and try to help if we can (and want to), but I sense some frustration between you guys (at least from him).
ddrueding
Fixture
I tend to bring that out in people...not sure why, but I'm kinda used to it.
mubs
Storage? I am Storage!
How so? You're a sweet guy who's never gotten into a conflict like I have. Handy's had to lock several threads as a result of my posts. :crap:
ddrueding
Fixture
Some people consider me too smug, or overconfident, or braggish, or that I talk too much. Guilty on all counts, really. It just seems to rub some people the wrong way.
e_dawg
Storage Freak
I think you just answered you own question but didn't know it. That's the whole point. That "cropped" image is 1.5x smaller than a FF image (16x24 vs 24x36) and must be magnified by the same amount to get to the same output size. That's why nobody shoots a billboard size print with 110 film and that's why pros use medium format for large prints (beyond other things like DOF).
Although a photo may SEEM clear, it may not be clear once magnified. All photos have some blur in them; it just a question of how much and how much magnification you're using.
But besides all this theory stuff, have you not noticed any empirical evidence of this yourself? If your little P&S uses a focal length of 35 mm (210 mm @ 35FF equiv) when racked out to max zoom, have you actually been able to take clear pics with it around 1/30 sec?
Gilbo
Storage is cool
Great explanation E_dawg. I didn't think of the (obvious) fact that you have to display each photo at the same size. Of course you're right.
Definitely not, I should have thought of P&S as a good, more extreme example of the effect.
The big problem for me these days in judging this stuff is that the K10D has sensor shake reduction. It throws off all those equations. Lately, I've had to figure out what shutter speeds work at what focal lengths by trial and error really. I don't find that there is a consistently reliable number of stops that it gives you. It's very affected by your hand-holding technique and ability, which was true before SR of course; SR just exaggerates the impact of that factor. Hold the camera carefully enough and the SR will reward you with several free stops, don't and you'll get a little, but not much.
In particular, I find that with lighter primes, it's so easy to hold the camera steady that it provides a ridiculous amount of cushion (1/6 at 1.5x77mm is fine a lot of the time, for example --if the subject doesn't move). Conversely, with zooms I get less cushion; it's just harder to keep the camera still enough to make the SR's job easy.
e_dawg
Storage Freak
Oh yeah, huge variability in the effectiveness of IS. When I got my first VR Nikkor, I was stunned that I could take pics at 1/6 sec that were still clear at 200 mm (300 mm @ 35FF eq)! But then I used it at the US Open (tennis) and found that I couldn't count on it even at 1/250 sec, so I just turned it off and used 1/400 and up.
Pradeep
Storage? I am Storage!
Is this poor design carried over into the 1Ds Mk III? That would not be good.
Sorry, the outburst was not so muchtowards you in particular, there is just so much misunderstanding of basic geometry and BS perpetuated on the web.
ddrueding
Fixture
Sorry, the outburst was not so muchtowards you in particular, there is just so much misunderstanding of basic geometry and BS perpetuated on the web.
Fair enough. Did the article I linked to provide (to your knowledge) accurate information?
I know a few pics have been posted to critique so I was curious what people thought about this weed picture I titled as "Red Barn". Say whatever your thoughts are, I'm not going to be offended. It has more meaning to me than anything related to photography.
Canon 20D
Tv(Shutter Speed)
1/640Sec.
Av(Aperture Value)
F3.5
Metering Modes
Evaluative metering
Exposure Compensation
0
ISO Speed
100
Lens
70-200mm
Focal Length
153.0 mm
Image size
3504 x 2336
Image Quality
RAW
Flash
Off
White Balance
Auto
AF mode
One-Shot AF
Canon 20D
Tv(Shutter Speed)
1/640Sec.
Av(Aperture Value)
F3.5
Metering Modes
Evaluative metering
Exposure Compensation
0
ISO Speed
100
Lens
70-200mm
Focal Length
153.0 mm
Image size
3504 x 2336
Image Quality
RAW
Flash
Off
White Balance
Auto
AF mode
One-Shot AF
ddrueding
Fixture
Well obviously I won't be giving any technical or composition-based critique, but I really like it. With the title "Red Barn" it has this whole other background. Typically I like pictures that are clear all the way through, I think it gives the subject context. But this one gets it from the title. I also really like how the red fades to black, the picture obviously wasn't taken at night, is that the roof?
ddrueding
Fixture
Looks like I'll be shooting a wedding on Saturday. Worse, it looks like it will be raining and will be held indoors. Looks like I'll be buying a Speedlite 430EX tomorrow and learning how to use it. They know how inexperienced I am, and have informed me that it will be acceptable. Of course, I still want to do the best I can.
I've been re-reading this thread, particularly all the flash-specific stuff. So much information, I'm afraid I won't have time to take it all in. If I provide the specifics of the situation, can someone provide a good combination of settings to start with? I just don't have the time to learn from scratch.
It will be indoors, at a house. 8ft ceilings, all off-white. Existing light sources are dim, low CRI, low temp. I'll be shooting with a 20D and maybe an XTi. Likely using a 35mm/2.0, but I might use the 18-55 for flexibility. I'll be buying a 430EX tomorrow unless someone says it won't cut it and I need a 580EX II for $500. Is there anything else I need? A lightsphere? What are good settings for posed shots? Candid (action) shots? I'll be reading on this until tomorrow afternoon when I need to buy the gear and familiarize myself with it.
Feeling a bit panicked, and a bit desperate, but their photographer bailed and they need help. So do I, it seems
I've been re-reading this thread, particularly all the flash-specific stuff. So much information, I'm afraid I won't have time to take it all in. If I provide the specifics of the situation, can someone provide a good combination of settings to start with? I just don't have the time to learn from scratch.
It will be indoors, at a house. 8ft ceilings, all off-white. Existing light sources are dim, low CRI, low temp. I'll be shooting with a 20D and maybe an XTi. Likely using a 35mm/2.0, but I might use the 18-55 for flexibility. I'll be buying a 430EX tomorrow unless someone says it won't cut it and I need a 580EX II for $500. Is there anything else I need? A lightsphere? What are good settings for posed shots? Candid (action) shots? I'll be reading on this until tomorrow afternoon when I need to buy the gear and familiarize myself with it.
Feeling a bit panicked, and a bit desperate, but their photographer bailed and they need help. So do I, it seems
Your goal is to reproduce memories -- So make sure you get good shots of that which has emotional content for someone (mainly the bride). Examples, will be the beaming bride (and groom); the cutting of the cake; The kiss; The giving of the ring, the dance, ... You should try to get a photograph of everyone that attends either posed or candid, but at least something to record that they were there. another point is that it is nice to have a quality photograph, but it is more important to get something of the important event. On "important shots" Take two, but very them slightly.
Arrange, with the wedding party to get posed shots before the ceremony. The bride will have opinions as to who and can arrange to get the right people there. Expect it to take far more time than will be allocated, no matter how much time there is. If possible, for a single camera-flash setup put the flash on the tripod off to your side (the photographs will be less flat and have no red-eye) and hand-hold the camera or use two tripods
As to settings and equipment, are all too variable to tell you what to do. You will need lenses capable of getting a group, a full frame individual, as well as portraits. Bring spare batteries and lots of RAM because you are going to endup taking lots of shots. A single flash will get some red-eyes, so expect some post-processing to remove. You've got what you've got and in the end, trust your equipment and don't try to do anything fancy because you just don't have 10 minutes to set it up and get it perfect.
Arrange, with the wedding party to get posed shots before the ceremony. The bride will have opinions as to who and can arrange to get the right people there. Expect it to take far more time than will be allocated, no matter how much time there is. If possible, for a single camera-flash setup put the flash on the tripod off to your side (the photographs will be less flat and have no red-eye) and hand-hold the camera or use two tripods
As to settings and equipment, are all too variable to tell you what to do. You will need lenses capable of getting a group, a full frame individual, as well as portraits. Bring spare batteries and lots of RAM because you are going to endup taking lots of shots. A single flash will get some red-eyes, so expect some post-processing to remove. You've got what you've got and in the end, trust your equipment and don't try to do anything fancy because you just don't have 10 minutes to set it up and get it perfect.
Stereodude
Not really a
There won't be a lot of difference between the 430EX and the 580EX in terms of output. My best advice is to put the camera in Manual mode and let the flash do it's thing. Flash operation in Manual mode is like this: You pick any aperture and shutter speed you want and the flash will fire automatically picking the appropriate amount of light to properly expose the image with the shutter and aperture you picked (assuming it has enough output). You can then adjust the flash compensation on the camera if the pictures are overexposed or underexposed. Please don't put the camera in P or you will get pictures that look like they were taken in a cave with super dark backgrounds. IMHO, Av and Tv are not your friends either because you will end up with all sorts of funky color casts because the flash isn't dominant.It will be indoors, at a house. 8ft ceilings, all off-white. Existing light sources are dim, low CRI, low temp. I'll be shooting with a 20D and maybe an XTi. Likely using a 35mm/2.0, but I might use the 18-55 for flexibility. I'll be buying a 430EX tomorrow unless someone says it won't cut it and I need a 580EX II for $500. Is there anything else I need? A lightsphere? What are good settings for posed shots? Candid (action) shots? I'll be reading on this until tomorrow afternoon when I need to buy the gear and familiarize myself with it.
Feeling a bit panicked, and a bit desperate, but their photographer bailed and they need help. So do I, it seems
I would suggest picking a F-stop and shutter that underexposes the subject by about 1.5-2 stops and then the flash will add the extra needed light (in Manual). You want pictures that are somewhat flash dominant to eliminate the color cast of the ambient lighting on the subject. But, IMHO, you don't want the bat cave look either. That's why 1.5-2 stops underexposure for ambient is a good balance. With 8 foot ceilings depending on how off white they are, I would be very very tempted to bounce the flash off the ceiling and use the notecard rubber banded to the flash trick to push some of the light directly at the subjects (to avoid shadows in the eyes from the bounce). If you try that you're trying to duplicate this product's effect.
I would also advise shooing RAW with a custom WB (test shot and set in the hall). Try to keep the ISO as low as you can, but you may need to have it fairly high. The flash will stop any action, so don't be afraid of letting the shutter get fairly slow (keeping in mind the old 1/focal length rule). Don't delete any CF cards at the wedding (IE: Don't copy to a notebook and delete the cards for reuse). If you use the 18-55 try to stay out of the wide end due to the effect the wide angle distortion has on portrait type photos. I would also look into renting a F2.8 24-70L. It doesn't go as wide (which is good) so you won't be tempted to take 28mm equivalent portraits which make people look odd, and at F2.8 you can get a lot more light if you need it (being conscious of the shallow depth of field F2.8 will get you at the telephoto end).
Can you get into the church/hall before to take a few test shots (bring your GF as the subject) as well as looking around for what you will have to work with?
Ultimately, the key is to be very comfortable and familiar with your gear.
Oh yeah... dress comfortably. Don't jeans and t-shirt it, but a tux won't be comfortable to shoot in either.
ddrueding
Fixture
Thanks for the tips guys, that is the kind of stuff I was looking for. The entire event will be at their house, ceremony and all, and I'll have plenty of time there before to get some testing in. Slacks and a button-down are the clothes of the day. To get the flash off to the side, do I need a Speedlite Transmitter (ST-E2) or will an off-camera shoe cord be enough?
I'm still pouring through this...
I'm still pouring through this...
Stereodude
Not really a
You don't want the flash off to the side. Ideally you want to keep the flash over the lens (on top), even when the camera is rotated 90 degrees. I use this bracket with a Canon off camera cord. As a word of warning you will not be able to hand hold the camera at the same shutter speeds you normally can when using the bracket. If you can normally handhold say 1/30th with a 50mm lens you will need to use something more like 1/90th with the bracket. You'll need to experiment some to determine what you can hand hold with a bracket rig.
I would also probably recommend a different bracket than the one I have. I would suggest one that rotates the camera rather than the flash. The one I have causes problem with bounce flash when the camera is on it's side because the flash ends up on it's side. You can still bounce the flash off the ceiling by swiveling the flash head, but a flash attached reflector (like a notecard, or the Lumiquest attachment) no longer pushes the light towards the subject. One like this will probably work better since the flash is always horizontal regardless of the camera.
PS: Here's the Stroboframe webpage for your reference.
ddrueding
Fixture
Two batteries for the camera, a pack of batteries for the flash, and 3-4 4GB CF cards. Got it.
Stereodude
Not really a
NiMH rechargeable batteries might be better since they handle high current draw situations better than Alkaline batteries and will end up giving you more shots and faster flash recharge. However, you would need several sets of 4 because you may not be able to charge a set by the time the 2nd runs out. Sanyo Eneloop NiMH's would be my suggestion if you go that route since they are very low self discharge.
Or, you could go with Lithium batteries (non rechargable). They're $$$, but they handle high current draw much better than Alkalines and they have more capacity (more than NiMH rechargables also).
ddrueding
Fixture
I can't believe I just spent another $500 on this hobby...
Stereodude
Not really a
ddrueding
Fixture
Speedlite 430EX
4GB Sandisk Extreme IV
Off Camera Shoe Cord 2
That ups my CF storage to ~15GB (16000 RAW images). I already have 12 rechargeable AA batteries and a quick charger. We'll see how it goes.
4GB Sandisk Extreme IV
Off Camera Shoe Cord 2
That ups my CF storage to ~15GB (16000 RAW images). I already have 12 rechargeable AA batteries and a quick charger. We'll see how it goes.
Stereodude
Not really a
Did you buy a bracket for the flash?
ddrueding
Fixture
Nope. It comes with a mini-tripod thing so I can set it down on a table or chair nearby. I was looking at the brackets, and none of them had enough versatility to justify the added bulk/weight. Worst case I just get someone handy to hold the flash where I want it.
Stereodude
Not really a
I think you're overestimating the reach of the Off Camera Cord 2. IMHO If you only have one flash you should keep it on the camera.
I disagree: I've found putting the flash on a tripod and using a off-camera cord is quite helpful for the posed shots. Just stand between the legs. I will agree that using a bracket and placing the flash higher and to the side is a better angle, for shadows. But missing that, a tripod does work. Both will effectively get rid of red-eye. Both are far better than hand-holding the flash off to the side which will very quickly get outright annoying.
The cord just isn't that expensive and the technique is effective.
The cord just isn't that expensive and the technique is effective.
Stereodude
Not really a
Yes, but my point is that the cord is coiled, and effectively not really 2 meters long despite what Canon says. Not withstanding that, if you are taking flash dominant pictures positioning the flash off to the side away from the camera will give odd shadows. Yes, true portraiture work has strobes that are off to the sides (not head on), but that is very different because there are multiple light sources to eliminate shadows, and those source have a lot of diffusion (very soft light) from either softboxes or umbrellas.
I still say bounce flash with something to push some of the light forward (notecard, some adapter, etc) will give the most pleasant results. But, I'm not the one with the camera, so my opinion is only that, my opinion.
I still say bounce flash with something to push some of the light forward (notecard, some adapter, etc) will give the most pleasant results. But, I'm not the one with the camera, so my opinion is only that, my opinion.
ddrueding
Fixture
Thanks much for the tips, guys. I just got to my hotel and am copying the pictures off the CF cards as we speak. A total of ~550 shots were taken during rehearsal and at the party, no photography was specifically requested during the ceremony (I applaud the idea).
The flash did stay on the camera the whole time bouncing off the ceiling. There was enough ambient light to do most of the work, I was just using light fill.
The flash did stay on the camera the whole time bouncing off the ceiling. There was enough ambient light to do most of the work, I was just using light fill.