question HDD thermal management (keeping your cool)

tazwegion

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I have a penchant for PC thermal management and was curious as to how others (if at all) addressed such requirements in both Business & Personal desktop systems (not Server mission critical systems), do you...


  • Install specific ancillary HDD coolers,
  • Modify fan/HDD placement to facilitate better air flow
  • Rely on existing case thermal management (air flow)
  • Purchase specific case design due to thermal dynamics


The reason I enquire is time and again I keep seeing shop, corporate & home built PC's configured with no regard for air flow around the HDDs, having even had to replace a few drives due solely to poor drive thermal management, the absolute worse thus far being a Hewlett Packard with a vertically mounted drive underside to towards the front of the case (no front vent).
 

BingBangBop

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I don't buy generic white-box PC's. They don't work for me. So I build my own.

I buy cases that have a fan (or at least a mount for a fan and then buy the fan) in front of the internal HD bays. I avoid cases with anti-vibration plastic mounting methods preferring metal-metal contact for heat dissipation. If you get a quality case, the amount of noise amplification from HD's is minimal.

Unless there is an explicit need for 7,200-15,000RPM HD's I tend to buy HD with 5000-5400RPM's for they run cooler.
 

tazwegion

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It isn't a great deal of "extra work" to mount a fan in front of the HDD cage using a dremel but it sure is nice when the case manufacturer has already done the ground work for me... unfortunately I don't get to choose the cases they just turn up in whatever they were installed in originally ;)
 

CougTek

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I remember that Google released reliability numbers for its hard drives a few years ago and that operating temperature wasn't a significant failure factor. The age of the drive was the most prominent failure cause (the older they are, the more they are susceptible to fail). The temperature inside a decent enclosure is supposed to be less than 50C and all drives are made to witstand that with two actuators in the nose. Unless I have to pack three of more drives next to each other, I don't care about the airflow they receive.
 

Bozo

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I just make sure there is air flow from front to rear of the case. Usually the rear and/or the top exhaust fan is sufficiant. I usually block any vent holes in the sides of the case, to encourage front to rear air flow.
 

time

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  • Install specific ancillary HDD coolers
    Not for many years, and I don't think I used them to cool hard drives!
  • Modify fan/HDD placement to facilitate better air flow
    I only really worry about HDD placement when there's two or more together. My old cases here still have low-speed cooling fans in front of the HDDs, but I haven't worried about that for some time, particularly since the publication of hard data that CougTek mentioned.
  • Rely on existing case thermal management (air flow)
    Yes and no. Like Bozo, I'm prepared to block off vents that are interfering with case through-flow. The worst offenders are vents or an unused fan hole in the back of the case near the power supply exhaust, which are asking for a thermal short circuit when the case is close to a wall. Less of a problem these days because I aim for low flow: a low-speed fan in close proximity is more effective than a high-speed fan too far away. Rather than turning the case into a vacuum cleaner, I just make sure that critical components are in the actual (not imagined) air path.
  • Purchase specific case design due to thermal dynamics
    I'm completely unimpressed if a case has twelve fans - it will absolutely not be on my shopping list. But I'll certainly exclude cases that have insufficient cooling for the target application. It used to be a pet peeve that many cases did not have sufficient intake vents in the front, but it's much less of a problem now. I do look for the air path to clear hot air from a gaming card. Too many vents in the wrong places are strikes against this. Unfortunately, I still feel queasy about large holes in the top surface of towers, but it obviously solves a lot of problems.
A point I'd like to make is that we've been told for years that electronics has a longer life at lower temperatures. Maybe so, but the life is already way more than we need! (And the relationship is nowhere near as strong as was commonly accepted). Even at high case internal temperatures, the only components to worry about are caps and fans (drives have way more sophisticated bearings). Most caps are now polymer and fans are lasting longer due to variable speed regulation.

So overclocking aside, we sweat on cooling more through habit rather than on any scientific basis. ;)
 

Stereodude

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A point I'd like to make is that we've been told for years that electronics has a longer life at lower temperatures. Maybe so, but the life is already way more than we need! (And the relationship is nowhere near as strong as was commonly accepted). Even at high case internal temperatures, the only components to worry about are caps and fans (drives have way more sophisticated bearings). Most caps are now polymer and fans are lasting longer due to variable speed regulation.
Svante Arrhenius would disagree with you. The Arrhenius equation is the backbone of HALT/HASS testing of electrical components. If it's not applicable then all semiconductor lifetimes are incorrectly derived.
 

tazwegion

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I'll try to get a picture of my hard drive cooling assembly. Very cheap and very effective.


Thanks, I'd appreciate that ;)



Just last month I had a PC come to me with boot "looping issues" that was nothing more than a fouled up OS installation (and possibly more Mal-ware than I've seen in some time), it's mid sized Seagate drive (250Gb) passed a disk health check but noted it had previously been overheated which all stemmed from poor case air flow, component placement, cable management, fan orientation & lack of a HDD specific fan.

The other odd behavior exhibited by the drive was no read/write access as a slave drive (though I could access the SMART data) and not being recognised by the OS (but it was by the BIOS), attempting to install a fresh OS (and format the drive during the process) met with resistance as well... thankfully persistence paid off and the drive was 100% reclaimed thanks to the nice disk utility included with Fedora.
 

ddrueding

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I'll put up the pictures tomorrow (when I get to my camera at work). Basically a giant heatsink that allows even the smallest amount of airflow to keep a drive cool.
 

time

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The Arrhenius equation is the backbone of HALT/HASS testing of electrical components. If it's not applicable then all semiconductor lifetimes are incorrectly derived.

That is correct, semiconductor lifetime estimates are based on a faulty premise. I pointed this out last year. Haven't you ever wondered how manufacturers can quote 137 years as the MTBF for a hard disk drive?
 

Tannin

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Never had the slightest issue with this. (Well, for a given value of "never".) It has always been a complete non-issue for us. (For a given value of "always".)

But for many years I have stocked good quality, full-size mini and midi tower cases, ones with actual metal in them, and which (among other virtues) have good natural cooling. Given a decent case, you have to try quite hard to overheat stuff. As so often with so many things in life, if you get the basics right in the first place (a quality full-size tower case) everything else temds to just happen with no further input required.

As a general rule, I deliberately leave the case fan unplugged because it simply isn't needed. One less thing to go wrong, one less thing to make a noise. Only where the system threatens to have cooling issues because it has (e.g.) an especially high-power graphics card do I plug in the case fan.

Obviously, we mount drives where they will get convective cooling; that's only common sense.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Exceptions:

1: very high-performance drives from years gone by - Cheetah 1, Medalist 7200 Pro, stuff like that. Take extra care with these.

2: bullshit systems. (A catch-all term to describe systems with, for example, small cases, flat desktop-style cases, weirdo bling-boy cases, ridiculously over-built systems with lots of hot bits like multiple fast graphics cards.) Grumble and do whatever you have to do with these. Mostly, just hope the customer takes the damn thing somewhere else next time.
 

tazwegion

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Obviously, we mount drives where they will get convective cooling; that's only common sense.

Apparently common sense isn't at all as common as we would naturally expect (ie. the Hardly Normal HP system I mentioned earlier) :(




bullshit systems. (A catch-all term to describe systems with, for example, small cases, flat desktop-style cases, weirdo bling-boy cases, ridiculously over-built systems with lots of hot bits like multiple fast graphics cards.) Grumble and do whatever you have to do with these. Mostly, just hope the customer takes the damn thing somewhere else next time.


So you essentially mean "gamer" style systems, wouldn't these comprise a growing percentile of the current PC industry/market?



From your responses I guess that perhaps I'm over engineering my housing solutions, it's just that I often see people with their computers situated in their lounge room (traditionally a well heated room) and during winter room temperatures can exceed what would be considered a normal operating environment, factor in some intensive CPU/GPU applications like gaming OR video encoding and case (and component) temperatures rise again, it's like that old adage "If you fail to plan, you plan to fail" thus I plan to not fail in the sense of providing adequate hard drive ventilation ;)


Thank you all for your responses, it has been most enlightening :)
 

Bozo

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I think you'll find 95% of all 'gamer' computers have only one video card with some mid to high end CPU, and lots of memory. The computers with multiple video cards, extream CPUs and power supplys that could be used for welding, are very rare. (and usually only found on the net) Paying $5000.00 for a gaming rig is absurd.
 

Tannin

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So you essentially mean "gamer" style systems, wouldn't these comprise a growing percentile of the current PC industry/market?

I shouldn't think so. A much-reduced percentage would be my guess. Oh, my own sales of this sort of system have shrunk to practically zero in recent years, but I attribute most of that to other factors - primarily (a) my primary market is older than the average gamer, and (b) games bore me absolutely rigid and the only gamers who buy systems from me are the ones who don't mind me laughing at them for wasting so much perfectly good money on a ridiculously dear computer. that is a fairly rare personality type. In general, anyone intelligent enough to laugh at themselves in that way is too intelligent to play computer games much. (Mind you, the rare exceptions tend to be extraordinary characters, and are well worth knowing.)

But you are talking about the market in general. I reckon a much smaller percentage, as I said earlier, because of (a) the rise of non-computer gaming rigs such as Playstation and X-box; (b) the expansion of the market has swamped the gamers (who have been into it for a decade or more) with hordes of schoolchildren and grannies and others who would not have dreamed of having a computer of their own until these last few years, and especially (c) the fact that most modern games run perfectly happily on a standard run-of-the-mill home/business system anyway. The hard-core action games still require as much hardware as you can poke a credit card at, but most of the other stuff even works on a laptop, never mind a middle-of-the-road desktop.

In short, games systems are a rarity on the market. the only reason they get so much space on shelves and in advertising is that they are one of the very few parts of the market that still retain fairly high margins. Bit like power supplies really - those big, expensive black things we were talking about the other day account for maybe 5-10% of all PSUs sold - and about 98-99% of the reviews, advertisments, and discussion.

From your responses I guess that perhaps I'm over engineering my housing solutions, it's just that I often see people with their computers situated in their lounge room (traditionally a well heated room) and during winter room temperatures can exceed what would be considered a normal operating environment, factor in some intensive CPU/GPU applications like gaming OR video encoding and case (and component) temperatures rise again, it's like that old adage "If you fail to plan, you plan to fail" thus I plan to not fail in the sense of providing adequate hard drive ventilation

Better to be safe than sorry!

Actually, it's the summer temps you have to worry about. Winter temps, even in the most outlandishly carbon-wasteful of households, rarely go much above 25 or so. But in summer, inside temps of 35 are not uncommon.

The secret (as I see it) is decent passive ventilation - i.e., some holes somewhere low down in the case, usually at the front, and some more holes high up (usually at the back). Even if the PSU fan fails, the natural tendency of hot air to rise will usually be enough to stave off disaster for quite a while. Oh, and I try to make sure that people know not to block the vents up with thick loop pile carpet or similar - that's a bit of a trap!
 

Chewy509

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I think you'll find 95% of all 'gamer' computers have only one video card with some mid to high end CPU, and lots of memory. The computers with multiple video cards, extream CPUs and power supplys that could be used for welding, are very rare. (and usually only found on the net) Paying $5000.00 for a gaming rig is absurd.

If one want's to see a good cross section of gamer's hardware, then I've found the Steam Hardware Survey to be quite interesting...

http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey

It's very enlightening to see what people are truly using.

PS. The Number of CPUs is the total CORE count, not the actual physical CPU count.
 

Chewy509

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To answer the main question:

My old machine, had fans placed in front of the drives to force air across them - but it was for 4x 10K SCSI drives plus a 7200rpm drive squeezed into 6 bays, so there was a need. (The drive bays had fan mounts included).

My current box, the case is designed for the natural flow of air to go over the drives, so no need for additional fans.

All cases I've purchased have had thermal management in mind, but not only for the HDDs, but for the total system. I've never purchased any HDD Coolers to cool just the HDDs.
 

Mercutio

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I basically don't have open 3.5" drive bays anywhere. If there is a bay, it has a drive in it, whether or not that drive is actively cooled and regardless of how close it is to other drives or components.

Despite the fact that I own many dozens of hard disks, actually losing one is vanishingly rare for me; I lose perhaps one traditional hard disk a year within its warranty period from my personal collection.

I certainly don't mind blowing air over a hard drive if I possibly can, but not having active cooling isn't going to stop me from using one.
 

Bozo

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I had a computer running in an air conditioned room for over 5 years. Never had a problem with it. Then the A/C failed. The room temperature slowly climbed to 85F at which point the computer failed. Only then did I realize the the case fan and power supply fan had failed at some earlier time. Convection cooling was all it needed while the room temperature stayed at 73F.
 

ddrueding

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It looks like I'll be stranded out here in the middle of nowhere for the rest of the day, so no pictures. Sorry.

All I did was buy a pair of these heatsinks, drill them so that 8 hard drives would mount between them, then suspend the whole thing for noise reduction. Runs about 8C above ambient in still air.
 

Stereodude

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That is correct, semiconductor lifetime estimates are based on a faulty premise. I pointed this out last year. Haven't you ever wondered how manufacturers can quote 137 years as the MTBF for a hard disk drive?
Regardless, semiconductors run within their spec have incredibly low failure rates. Automotive spec semiconductor products from top tier manufacturers have a ppm failure rate of less than 1. Hard drives have lots of moving components and other things that Arrhenius certainly doesn't apply to. So, anyone who uses Arrhenius on a hard drive is an idiot.
 

Mercutio

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Why? Doesn't management have to fix the AC when it malfunctions?

Airflow in my apartment is such that whether I ran the AC or not, I would effectively only cool five square feet around the air conditioner. My apartment faces southeast. Air simply does not move within it. I've tried doing complex arrangements of fans but that really doesn't help either since I'm just moving the same hot air around. I've just resolved that I will live in a hot apartment until mid-autumn.
 

tazwegion

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In short, games systems are a rarity on the market. the only reason they get so much space on shelves and in advertising is that they are one of the very few parts of the market that still retain fairly high margins. Bit like power supplies really - those big, expensive black things we were talking about the other day account for maybe 5-10% of all PSUs sold - and about 98-99% of the reviews, advertisments, and discussion.

It's the advertising and web based discussion that had me pondering the gaming PC's segment percentile because be it virtual peer group pressure, One-upmanship or pure ignorance on what a consumer actually requires all would surely contribute to the market demand.



Better to be safe than sorry!

Actually, it's the summer temps you have to worry about. Winter temps, even in the most outlandishly carbon-wasteful of households, rarely go much above 25 or so. But in summer, inside temps of 35 are not uncommon.

Indeed, but such carbon-wasteful households could foreseeably crank up the A/C in summer, either way planning for "end users" who will expectantly have grossly varied environments is the goal... I do recall reading somewhere that a 10c -/+ variance can alter how reliable your HDD operates as well as effecting it's service life, though to be honest most of the systems I encounter are legacy builds ;)


ddrueding said:
All I did was buy a pair of these heatsinks, drill them so that 8 hard drives would mount between them, then suspend the whole thing for noise reduction. Runs about 8C above ambient in still air.

Thanks, that's not a run of the mill solution is it? no moving parts to fail OR create noise... nice!



Mercutio said:
My apartment will be 90F+ until probably late September.

32c sounds nice, it's going to be 8C here today (46.4F) care to trade weather systems?
 

BingBangBop

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Airflow in my apartment is such that whether I ran the AC or not, I would effectively only cool five square feet around the air conditioner. My apartment faces southeast. Air simply does not move within it. I've tried doing complex arrangements of fans but that really doesn't help either since I'm just moving the same hot air around. I've just resolved that I will live in a hot apartment until mid-autumn.

Have you considered just opening a window slightly on the opposite side of the apt. as the air conditioner? I am assuming that the air conditioner has a sealed outside intake. If so, then when the air conditioner increases the local air pressure, it will move cold air towards the open window cooling all the rooms it travels through to get outside. If the open window is only slightly open then hot outside air will not enter because of the interior air leaving. All it becomes is a vent.
 

LunarMist

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Airflow in my apartment is such that whether I ran the AC or not, I would effectively only cool five square feet around the air conditioner. My apartment faces southeast. Air simply does not move within it. I've tried doing complex arrangements of fans but that really doesn't help either since I'm just moving the same hot air around. I've just resolved that I will live in a hot apartment until mid-autumn.

Is there only a wall unit? Still it should the place after a while.
 

Mercutio

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Have you considered just opening a window slightly on the opposite side of the apt.

All my windows face southeast. My AC is a window unit. I have two portable AC units but I'm not allowed to vent them out of my apartment (it would be "unsightly"). I'm also not allowed to replace the AC I've been given by the landlord with a larger one and for some reason my particular apartment does not have the second spot for a window unit that most apartments like mine have.

Turning off the electronics doesn't particularly help in my experience. It might make a 2F degree difference in overall indoor temperature, but not much of that stuff is in my bedroom to begin with.

I still think this is better than dealing with home ownership.
 

Tannin

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I still think this is better than dealing with home ownership.

hang on a mo - I thought the US housing market went into meltdown in the wake of of the GFC? Hell - the US housing market caused the GFC, at least in large part. Shouldn't this be the absolute best time to be buying in, while the market is depressed and banks are desperate to get rid of their holdings?
 

timwhit

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I still think this is better than dealing with home ownership.

You could buy a condo. Many of the problems of home ownership are handled by a management company or the condo board. We own a condo in a 11 unit building and it's really not like owning a single family house. I am also the association treasurer, but that was my choice.
 

Mercutio

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My last place was a duplex managed by a condominium association. I don't want to maintain a home at all, especially not if there exists even the remotest possibility that I could be on the hook for "Whoops, this was built improperly and it's going to fall down around you no matter what you do", which I very nearly was with my previous experience.
 

time

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This might be a good thread to mention an interesting SilverStone demonstration of fan airflow effectiveness.

It's all true, you can feel the effects of a honeycomb air guide with your hand, and the smoke machine video at the end really highlights how much energy is wasted with conventional fans.
 

tazwegion

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Mercutio said:
I still think this is better than dealing with home ownership.

Rent money is dead money, paying a mortgage allows for all sorts of clever financial benefits like equity loans (ie. a car loan at housing loan rates), in time you'll eventually own the property outright and you can sell and move to something more upmarket should you so desire... the only benefit of renting IMHO is flexibility of location ;)


Each to their own I suppose...

I'm still interested in swapping climates, woke up to snow this morning :eek:
 

Bozo

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This might be a good thread to mention an interesting SilverStone demonstration of fan airflow effectiveness.

It's all true, you can feel the effects of a honeycomb air guide with your hand, and the smoke machine video at the end really highlights how much energy is wasted with conventional fans.

What!!! No LEDs??? :)
 

ddrueding

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Rent money is dead money, paying a mortgage allows for all sorts of clever financial benefits like equity loans (ie. a car loan at housing loan rates), in time you'll eventually own the property outright and you can sell and move to something more upmarket should you so desire... the only benefit of renting IMHO is flexibility of location ;)


Each to their own I suppose...

I'm still interested in swapping climates, woke up to snow this morning :eek:

Not nearly as much as you might think.

1. My car is financed at 1.9%. I would kill for a mortgage rate that low.
2. Buying a house with a large mortgage is effectively playing a financial market with tons of leverage. We all know how well that turns out.
3. Rent on a place is considerably cheaper than a mortgage on the same place. I bet that even in this market the balance of that money in the market could offer better returns.

I bought, but I bought so I could screw around with the house and make it the way I want it. If that wasn't my goal I would still be renting.

Oh - 73F today ;)
 
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