How to convey an idea

[Chewy509]

While, I'm not a believer in the what should happen on dates 1, 2 and 3 rules, I do prefer to see some progression throughout the dates... and I don't mean physically either. The conversations should become more relaxed and you both move into more personal areas of discussion. You know if your still talking about the weather on the 5th date, you know something isn't going right.

As for being too tentative, I now know that I fall into that category, (something my ex-wife told me recently). And it is something that I am seeking to change.

 

[ddrueding]

Tentative is a major problem. If you can't take the risks, dating is certainly not for you. You have to be willing to over-extend yourself, both emotionally and intellectually, and be able to ask for them to do the same. If you only extend yourself when you feel completely comfortable, it will never happen. This is the deal, you take risks and chance true rejection. And you receive true rejection. A lot.

Having few people on your "dateable" list means you haven't met enough people. How many people have I talked to in the last 10 years of dating? Thousands, easily. How many have I asked out? Hundreds, easily. How many first dates have I gotten? 30-40, maybe. How many good relationships have I had? 3.

Not good odds.

 

[Mercutio]

I do not know any people in a dateable sort of category.

 

[ddrueding]

...meaning you haven't met nearly enough people. Careful selection of venue can help, but nothing substitutes for pure volume, particularly if you are relatively inexperienced. My first 2 "serious" (more than 2 years) relationships were really wasted, regardless of whether they could have worked out, I lacked the experience to see them through. Expect this kind of trial-and-error all the way through, the first 50 conversations you have won't turn out well, because you lack the experience to make it turn out any other way.

 

[jtr1962]

Most of the people I know haven't dated hundreds or even dozens of people. My sister married the second guy she ever dated, really the first since her other boyfriend was one of my brother's friends who actually kept hinting at him to go out with my sister. He was a complete asshole by the way, but my sister went out with him purely out of desparation since she had gone through high school and college without even getting asked out once. I've known people who married their school sweethearts so technically they may not even have dated at all.

Anyway, if the odds are that terrible I'd just as soon not bother. There aren't hundreds of people I'd consider "dateable" in the entire city, at least not by my standards, nor are there any situations I could put myself in to met hundreds of random people every day where it might be considered socially acceptable to start casual conversation. Like I said earlier, riding the subways is as good as it gets in that regard, but I'd probably be arrested if I attempted anything beyond asking someone for the time. And the places where it might be acceptable I just can't see myself going to. Bars and clubs are a waste of money I really don't have. I've browsed many Internet dating sites without really seeing anyone I could see myself hooking up with. I think Tannin is really on to something. Unless the person is highly attractive by my standards and also intelligent, I'd probably get more aroused just persuing some of my interests. I'd definitely find the average girl you might pick up anywhere for casual dating not terribly attractive and boring as all hell to talk to. I'd probably get more enjoyment spending time with one of my cats.

If anyone goes through hundreds of people dating my guess is they're very poor at filtering out the ones not worth a second look or even a hello. I've known people in relationships where their partner spelled trouble just by looking at them. A friend of mine married a Russian girl. It was pretty obvious to me and just about everyone except him that she was just after her citizenship papers. After a few months of ever escalating arguments they split. Now if this same girl had approached me, probably after 5 minutes I'd have told her to f*ck off. I suppose some are better at filtering out losers than others. I know many females have a mysterious sixth sense, or so they like to keep most guys thinking they do. Truth is by observing gestures, mannerisms, the way the person carries themselves, how often they blink their eyelids, etc. you can pretty much tell right away if a person is full of sh*t, often before they utter a word. Ditto for how they dress. Someone wearing lots of designer clothes, jewelry, prominently carrying a cell phone, etc. is likely a self-important, insecure person obsessed with external appearances. Again, someone not worth even a second look. I also love that since I'm aware of the cues many females use to size out guys I can avoid sending them those cues. Perhaps that's why I'm not approached by the opposite sex-they can't size me up until they spend lots of time getting to know me, so introducing themselves is a huge risk since their filtering mechanisms just don't work well with me. I might be the guy of their dreams or I could be Norman Bates. They just can't figure out which right away. Maybe udaman and Merc have the same problem since both are intensively introspective like me, and able to compensate for their faults.

The notion of extending myself really makes no sense, either. If the other person falls in love, will it be with me, or with that other person I'm pretending to be but can't? And vice versa. I think this is exactly why so many marriages fail-both parties pretended to be something they're not.

Maybe one of these days I'll write a book on this subject called "The Unrules", or such. Basically, it would be a treatise on why both sexes should throw all society's preconcieved notions of how the sexes interact out the window. I think all lifetime relationships should, indeed must, begin with the two of your becoming first friends, then good friends. The dating scene is counterproductive to that, and forces people to waste time/money being something their not.

 

[ddrueding]

Your post leads me to believe you have a very good idea of what you aren't, and that you are very capable of expressing that you aren't those things. What you really need is a better way to express what you are. This whole "I'm a still water that runs deep, if you want to get to know me it will be a lot of work" thing is just crap. If you don't know what you want, fine; say it. If you can't express what you want or what you are looking for, work on it. But pretending that you are too complex to summarize is not useful when interacting with others, they should be busy finding out what they want and how to tell you.

 

[e_dawg]

Jtr, seems like you know what you want and what you don't want and aren't willing to settle for anything less. After all, you have your standards. Furthermore, it seems like it would be a waste of time and not worth the mental energy to put yourself on the line and put in the work to meet people who likely wouldn't have the qualities you're looking for in a woman, and may even have a fair number of flaws that just turn you off. As far as you see it, you'd rather be alone than be with someone you know who just doesn't cut it. Am I right?

Rightly or wrongly, the first thing that came to my mind was that you sometimes have perfectionistic tendencies and can be a bit stubborn when you're convinced you're right (but aren't we all to a certain extent?) Allow me to post a link that has a description of OCPD. Does anything seem familiar to you? I know I thought twice about some of the patterns in my life when I read that article. Food for thought.

http://www.ocdonline.com/articlephillipson6.php

Having said that, I think we at SF have varying degrees of OCPD-ness in all of us. Why else would we have scoured the web in search for superior, high signal-to-noise knowledge about storage?

 

[jtr1962]

Jtr, seems like you know what you want and what you don't want and aren't willing to settle for anything less. After all, you have your standards. Furthermore, it seems like it would be a waste of time and not worth the mental energy to put yourself on the line and put in the work to meet people who likely wouldn't have the qualities you're looking for in a woman, and may even have a fair number of flaws that just turn you off. As far as you see it, you'd rather be alone than be with someone you know who just doesn't cut it. Am I right?

Absolutely. I'm quite capable of being self-sufficient for months, even years if need be, with little face-to-face social contact with non-family members if need be. My hobbies and other things I do keep me occupied for often weeks at a time. As for any potential partners, what you wrote about sums it up. I'm not looking for something which doesn't exist, just very hard to find. The person I've mentioned pretty much was what I was after both physically and mentally. She may have had a few flaws (well, not in the looks department but in other ways) but then nobody's perfect, including me. Give me someone a lot like her, or perhaps even her now, and I'd be happy. Anyone much different could at best be only a friend. The feelings and sexual attraction just wouldn't be there.

Rightly or wrongly, the first thing that came to my mind was that you sometimes have perfectionistic tendencies and can be a bit stubborn when you're convinced you're right (but aren't we all to a certain extent?) Allow me to post a link that has a description of OCPD. Does anything seem familiar to you? I know I thought twice about some of the patterns in my life when I read that article. Food for thought.

I went through that quickly and the only thing I could remotely relate to was depressed mood, although in my case I think it has stemmed from many factors other than not living up to standards I set for myself. I'm not indecisive at all. I make snap decisions all the time without thinking about it again. I highly doubt I have OCPD although I recognize some of those characteristics, including sudden outbursts of anger, in a friend of mine, and also in my late father (definitely OC, probably also had OCPD). Also, when I cling stubbornly to a viewpoint it's often because facts rather than emotion back me up. Look at all those debates on air pollution and global warming, for example. The facts lately are proving me right even though I endured ridicule at the time. Maybe the problem is I can think things through to their logical conclusion way before the majority who need to actually see half of it right in front of them. I'll arrive at a conclusion then stick to it. I'm not afraid to ever admit I'm wrong if the facts I based my conclusions on were incomplete or wrong. On things where there's no real facts to back up either viewpoint such as religion I tend to just avoid the discussion altogether these days. Someone with OCPD will insist their world view is the correct one no matter what the facts say. On the topic being discussed, my view is the correct one for me. Others have equally valid viewpoints which may apply to their own situation.

It seems to me that dating is really a very expensive hobby more than a way to meet a life partner. So if you genuinely enjoy going out with many different people all the time, and have the cash for it, then it's fine. I really don't enjoy meeting new people on any regular basis (it gets confusing to the point I'll mix up or forget names), and don't have a lot of time or money to invest in something with such poor odds. I don't enjoy the typical activities (movies and eating out) associated wth dating, either, at least not enough to want to do them more than a few times a year. I'd much rather maybe cycle with someone, or walk through the city, or take a subway ride, or share a hobby. I just don't put much stock in the dating scene as a great way to hook up with a soul mate. It seems a matter of luck. Some people get really lucky, marry their school sweetheart, and stay together until they die. The rest either spend an eternity trying to find the right one in a manner which stacks the odds against you, or just plain give up.

 

[jtr1962]

I laughed when I read the following line in that link:

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM III-R, the bible for persons in the mental health profession)suggests that persons with OCPD display a pervasive pattern of orderliness, perfectionism, and/or mental and interpersonal control, at the expense of flexibility, openness, and efficiency.

I'm pretty much a slob except maybe in my workroom where I'm just plain messy. :bglaugh: Not the symptoms of someone with a pervasive pattern of orderliness at all. If anything, my messiness sometimes hurts my efficiency. I know what the article refers to though-someone who will put a tool back in it's spot when they're done even if they use the tool 50 times in an hour. Not me. I'll throw it on the table and it'll probably still be there a week after I'm done with it.

 

[e_dawg]

Also, when I cling stubbornly to a viewpoint it's often because facts rather than emotion back me up. Look at all those debates on air pollution and global warming, for example. The facts lately are proving me right even though I endured ridicule at the time. Maybe the problem is I can think things through to their logical conclusion way before the majority who need to actually see half of it right in front of them. I'll arrive at a conclusion then stick to it.

These behaviours can be indicative of OCPD-ness. When reading this, what comes across (and this is my own interpretation, however flawed it may be) is subtle hints of relative smugness and defiance in holding fast to your convictions by pointing to the facts (i.e., the truth shall set me free). The relative strictness with which you interpreted the aforementioned article also hints at cognitive rigidity, which is often a hallmark of OCPD.

I'm not afraid to ever admit I'm wrong if the facts I based my conclusions on were incomplete or wrong.

Naturally. Otherwise, you would be perceived as irrational, undermining your credibility -- a no-no for those with OCPD.

Someone with OCPD will insist their world view is the correct one no matter what the facts say.

That's not entirely true. I've seen many a time when people with OCPD (and i am one of them) will point to the facts to vindicate themselves or support their argument.

Having said all the above, let me just say that ultimately, my intent is not to play armchair psychiatrist, but rather, to give you some food for thought and challenge some of the misconceptions that people have about this issue (from the perspective of someone who not only has struggled with OCPD at times, but knows a fair bit about it as well). All I ask is that you keep an open mind about this stuff. I don't want to overstep my bounds here; I think I've said enough, especially when it involves commenting on another person's character.

 

[Chewy509]

I'll have to agree with jtr, dating is expensive, initially. After the 2nd/3rd date I tend to aim for shared activities rather than the typical dinner/movie type prim and proper date. It's cheaper and shows that there is more to you than just someone who can hold a conversation.

Take for example, I had dinner with E on Saturday night, and arranged that very night to go the Brisbane car show the next day (I like off road 4wd and she likes trail bikes) so just a shared interest get together. I think we had more fun on the second date checking out the new 4WD and bikes, than we did on the first (which was dinner at an Italian restaurant followed by a walk through the local parkland along Brisbane river - Southbank if you know the area).

I would also have to agree with dd, you really need to get outside your comfort zone and in some respects date people who are not your ideal partner or even date without setting a (high) standard. It's hard, but I seem to be managing well with the concept. I've met some really nice people, and I've personally found that the key element in meeting someone, is not finding the ideal partner (Mr Right as many women put it), but finding someone with a compatible personality and some shared interests. It seems some people like to "throw out the baby with the bath water" as it were, by setting standards so high that no-one will fit the mold perfectly.

Actually, I'm about to start a new thread about something E and I were talking about on Saturday night... I just want some opinions. But don't laugh, it's quite funny...

PS. At the car show, I saw the Hummer H3 in person for the first time and was disappointed in it. It really felt small and cramped, even though I drive a small Suzuki Vitara myself. One car that impressed was the new Ford Ranger...

 

[Pradeep]

The H3 is basically a GMC Canyon frame with a different shell, it is rather small and cramped compared to a full size truck.

The Ford Ranger is a bit of an old dog, how about a new 07 Tundra?

Oops, never mind, just saw that an F-250 in Aus goes for over AUS$60,000! One can only imagine what a Tundra goes for.

And I see the Ranger is Aus has a 3 litre turbo-diesel, not bad.

 

[e_dawg]

I'll have to agree with jtr, dating is expensive, initially.

Yeah, especially in NYC

After the 2nd/3rd date I tend to aim for shared activities rather than the typical dinner/movie type prim and proper date. It's cheaper and shows that there is more to you than just someone who can hold a conversation.
[...] I think we had more fun on the second date checking out the new 4WD and bikes, than we did on the first

Absolutely. A parade of dinner & movie nights spells b-o-r-i-n-g and can often contribute to the demise of a promising relationship.

I would also have to agree with dd, you really need to get outside your comfort zone and in some respects date people who are not your ideal partner or even date without setting a (high) standard. It's hard, but I seem to be managing well with the concept. I've met some really nice people, and I've personally found that the key element in meeting someone, is not finding the ideal partner (Mr Right as many women put it), but finding someone with a compatible personality and some shared interests.

So true!

It seems some people like to "throw out the baby with the bath water" as it were, by setting standards so high that no-one will fit the mold perfectly.

Ain't that the truth. Unrealistically high standards and "all or nothing" thinking are the bane of true personal happiness. The biggest problem is that much of the time, people are unaware that their judgement and thinking are flawed and unrealistic, and are unaccepting of a differing perspective when it is brought to their attention.