Inexpensive laptops.

[CougTek]

While I still don't own, or plan to own, a laptop, a couple of my friends would like to get a new one in the upcoming months. Mainly for office work, no great requirements. Not too bulky would be a bonus. 8-9 pounds is too much. I'm looking 7lbs or less.

I quickly browsed throuh the offerings of the main system integrators and the two systems that got most of my attention were the Lenovo Thinpad Z series and the HP LifeStrong. I would trust more the Lenovo simply because the HP is, well, a HP. But the LifeStrong packs a lot into it and it's lighter (5.2lbs vs 6.1lbs for the Lenovo). Oh and there's the quétaine claim by HP that for every purchase of a LifeStrong laptop, 50$ goes to the Lance Armstrong foundation, blahblahblah...

I haven't bothered to visit Toshiba. Every time I hear something about Toshiba laptops, I hear a complain about how fragile they are. Not interested. There's also the cheapo Walmarde 400U$ laptop. Haven't checked that either. Seems impossible to me to get something reliable at that price.

Let's say that the budget is 1275U$ (That's a maximum, 1300U$ is too much), what would you suggest?

 

[fb]

How about an iBook? You can get the 14" for $1,198.00 in the Apple Store right now.

 

[CougTek]

I'm worried about Apple's products future compatibility with their platform shift to the dark side.

I came across a link to some Acer laptops. They have a few that look good.

 

[CougTek]

I don't think I'm going to find something better than that :

• Hewlett Packard NX6110
  
  Pentium M 730
  512MB RAM
  40GB HD 5400rpm
  DVD-RW
  15" XGA display
  integrated graphics (it's meant for business...)
  modem
  WLAN
  WinXP Pro SP2
  6.06lbs

~950$CAD (~800U$)

Unless you folks had very bad experiences with HP NX series, that will be my recommendation.

 

[Mercutio]

Oddly enough I was looking at the ads for cheapo laptops yesterday as well, particularly the ones that're under $500 - cheap enough to be an impulse buy (well, compared to my usual laptop standards).

Most of the sub-$500 models seemed to be low-end Celeron Ms with only 256MB RAM, and were only cheap after a couple mail in rebates. Bleh.

Walmart, though, had an impressive model: a 512MB Sempron 2800 with a 6-cell battery and X200 (that's a DX9 card) for $375 with no rebates required. It was an HP, but holy crap, at that price, buy two and if one breaks you're still doing pretty well.

Um... anyway, the thing that actually came to mind aside from that HP was time's recommendation of Asus notebooks. I've seen a couple now. Build quality looks pretty good to me, on par with Gateway or Sharp (and IMO, both those companies are a big step up from HP!). You can get a pretty decent Asus notebook in your price range, even with 1GB of RAM if you're willing to skimp a bit on the CPU.

 

[Mercutio]

Just paid $1300 for a Gateway AMD64/4000+ with 1GB of RAM and an X600. It's 7.5lbs., bigger than I might normally like, but since I'm not going to be the one using it, I don't care all that much.
Oh yeah... it was the last one in the store.

 

[CougTek]

...on par with Gateway or Sharp (and IMO, both those companies are a big step up from HP!).

I wouldn't have thought that cows made good computers. I'm no expert in laptops, but I thought HP's business-oriented notebooks (like the NX6110 I linked above) were tougher than their value models. Like Dell's Lattitude versus Inspiron for instance. Am I wrong?

According to you, a vanilla Gateway would be more durable than a HP NX6110? I'll go take a look at Gateway's models this evening.

 

[Tannin]

Coug, you have lost it. Seriously. I have no idea why an otherwise intelligent person would even think about buying such pox. Mate, HP is the pits. You know that. WTF is wrong with you today? Snap out of it and buy something decent. IBM are simply the best, obviously. But I'd rather have a Gateway than 10 HPs. Or an ASUS. Or a Toshiba. Or Dell. Even an Acer, if pressed to it, though Acer laptops are pretty unreliable. But at least they ain't Hewlett-Crapards. Almost anything is better than Hewlett-Crapard. Maybe I need to post another picture to help you feel to be a better person. You know which picture. Don't make me use it.

 

[Mercutio]

I had very good service the last time I talked to a Cowbox rep, actually, and their casing feels better than HP's, even though IIRC it's the same hardware HP uses underneath the chassis.

 

[CougTek]

I've taken a look at the Gateway's. ALL of them have 4200rpm drives. Disapointing. I've found Asus at several places, but most of the models offered are barebones. I presume I would have to buy the CPU/RAM/HD/OS, which makes the overall deal not very competitive with other brands.

I agree HP usually makes crap, but they only put their badge on the laptops : someone else is making it. I've lost the link of which Taiwanese manufacturer makes what for who, but I know HP doesn't have the pleasure to ruin the entire design of their notebooks.

So...

HP looks like a good value, on paper.
Gateway is supposed to have a better chassis, but has the worst HDs.
Lenovo has the best reputation but its spec. look bland compared to others.
Acer is flimsy and unreliable, not something I want.
Toshiba is Toshiba (I'm biased against).
Asus is just as good as Gateway, but cost more for a complete system.

Regarding the 4200rpm Gateway HD drives, maybe that isn't a deal breaker. In the recent tests done at SR, pretty much all 2.5" drives sucked badly. If the rest of the system is really that good, well...

 

[Mercutio]

I plan to get my content from across a Gbit LAN, not on the drive. It'll suck for boot time, but who cares about that? Eventually I'll stick a 160GB unit or something in mine.

 

[Santilli]

http://www.superwarehouse.com/Panasonic_Toughbook_51/CF-51LCMDDBM/p/623821


http://www.superwarehouse.com/Panasonic_Laptops_by_Processor/b/196/c/2051

Long Panisonic URL

"Downplay the processor speed. Speed is no longer the be-all of personal computers. For years, processors have delivered all the speed most people need. That’s still very much the case. Spend the money on more memory instead. A Pentium 4 processor with a speed of 2.4 GHz and a Pentium M at 1.4 GHz earned the same speed score in our tests. The different types of chips now on the market make direct speed comparisons difficult. "

I'd wait till after Christmas, and see what you can find for toughbooks. While expensive, they have a decent warranty, and, you can find great deals on them, every once in awhile.

GS

 

[Tannin]

Buy the model with the smallest, suckiest hard drive, then swap out the drive for something decent. If you want a decent drive in a laptop, you nearly always wind up having to get the model with the allow wheels and the power steering and every other damn thing you don't need.

IBM laptops are bland, Coug. On paper, and even in the flesh, they don't seem to have all that much to recommend them. But, over time, you discover that they just work. Their attention to subtle details is outstanding. Your ability to buy upgrade parts and accessories like a million different chargers and docking stations and drives and stuff is unmatched. I often give customers this advice: "You should never drop a laptop, but if you do, try to drop an IBM". That's not far off the mark. OK, you pay a little more for the same feature set, but over time you will discover that it was well and truly worth it. These days, the only other laptop I would consider seriously is a Fujitsu. Fujis are beautiful, but very expensive, and nowhere near as brick-like solid.

Toughbooks are way too expensive to appear on any normal human's radar. (Santilli is not normal, just in case you haven't noticed yet.)

 

[CougTek]

The cheapest Panasonic Toughbook I can get here is 3000$CAD. I'll pass.

How's the screen on your new toy Merc? Is it running hot or is it reasonable (not the screen, the other half of the laptop, I mean)? That same laptop cost 1500$CAD here. That's the very top of my allowed budget.

 

[Tannin]

Damn it Greg, you broke the thread.

BTW Coug, you might not have noticed what has happened with the price of notebook hard drives. They used to be quite expensive, especially the larger capacities, but they have dropped to much closer to desktop drive prices now. As usual, Samsung is the brand to have.

 

[Santilli]

I just shop for a long time, prior, to picking one up.

Still waiting for the 7200 rpm drives to drop in price. Maybe after Christmas.

Still, I bought this thing for doing the bar, word processing, and I'm in no hurry to upgrade the drive.

I still have my 2000 running 366 mhz, and it's just a bit too slow for most stuff. Maybe a 7200 rpm drive might really help, but don't see the point.

Anybody have a good price on either Hitachi, or Seagate 7200 rpm drive?

Thanks

Greg

 

[Santilli]

What's wrong with a Dell entry level, for 399?

http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/featured_basnb?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs

 

[Tannin]

You mean apart from being a Dell?

 

[Tannin]

Hoolie Doolie! I always knew Dell were a bit on the substandard side, but did you read the fine print? 90 day warranty! Strike me lizard up a gum tree, that sucks serious dishwater. If that's the "confidence" Dell have in their products, you can count me out. 90 days! Unbeleviable!

What bloody century is this?

 

[Santilli]

Well, the other one mentioned was HP...
Does Samsung make laptops :?: :wink:

Anybody know what the DVD playback lawsuit against Apple was about?

gs

 

[Mercutio]

I'd rather have a Gateway, Sharp, Averatec or Emachines notebook than an Inspiron, just on principle.

Yes, Emachines.

Santilli, Toughbooks are NOT a solution for everyone. They're fucking HEAVY, overlarge and, going by the ones issues to state troopers here in Indiana, have limited I/O options.

90 day warranty on a laptop is simply galling, though.

 

[Santilli]

Merc:
Panasonic is on the cutting edge of lite.
http://www.shopzilla.com/9L--Panaso...top_-_cat_id--462__prod_id--324605601#details

The one I picked is heavy. On the other hand, the CF-37 is about 3.9 pounds, and, they have super light ones, as well.



Still, they are very expensive, but, they do last, and they have a 3 year warranty, and fantastic service.

I think the Dell Warranty reflects who buys their cheap laptops: kids that are highly likely to load them up with spyware, require support, etc.

I still have a Dell P2 400 mhz, plugging away, about 8 years after purchase.
Sure I upgraded some of the components, but, it is still going. They do, sometimes, pick really good components, like BX440 chipsets, and Intel processors, that simply work.

Feel free to document current screwups by Dell.

I see more for Apple, who seems to get sued a LOT for putting stuff out that won't do basic stuff, like play DVD's.
GS

 

[sechs]

I'd still put my money on a ThinkPad.

 

[Santilli]

I'd still put my money on a ThinkPad.

Thinkpads are also usually expensive, and, the 'eraser' sucks...

gs

 

[Tannin]

Nowhere near as expensive as a Pana$onic, oh Breaker of Threads, and some people - quite a few people actually - prefer the rubber joy nipplything. Looked at a Thinkpad lately? They give you the joynippleything and a touchpad, and a selection of different tips you can swap over depending on whether you like big red ones or pointy ones or firm rubbery ones.

Average price for a Thinkpad these days is around the same or a little higher than an equivalent feature set Toshiba, and the build quality is on a different planet. Around a 10% premium over also-ran brands like Acer and Samsung or BenQ. Worth every penny.

 

[Tannin]

Besides, when was the last time you saw me, Merc and Sechs agree about anything?

 

[LunarMist]

Do Thinkpads have Firewire yet? Last time I looked they did not, which is logical for most business users but a major oversight for others. The Panasonics are overpriced for the features if ruggedness is not needed and the better models are not distributed properly in the US.

 

[Santilli]

Nowhere near as expensive as a Pana$onic, oh Breaker of Threads, and some people - quite a few people actually - prefer the rubber joy nipplything. Looked at a Thinkpad lately? They give you the joynippleything and a touchpad, and a selection of different tips you can swap over depending on whether you like big red ones or pointy ones or firm rubbery ones.

Average price for a Thinkpad these days is around the same or a little higher than an equivalent feature set Toshiba, and the build quality is on a different planet. Around a 10% premium over also-ran brands like Acer and Samsung or BenQ. Worth every penny.

Geneflect if you like :wink:

I saw a Thinkpad at work, and, it is kind of cool, but hell of slow.
However, I do trust you guys, and, I've not looked up Thinkpads lately...

gs

 

[Mercutio]

Firewire can go nicely in a cardbus slot. What else would you put in there? eSATA, maybe, which might be even better than firewire anyway... the T42 is well appointed otherwise.

And I can't stress this enough: I, a 125kg person, stepped on a T20 once, and did no permanent damage to it. If I stepped on one of the Toshibas I maintain, it'd be dead. If I stepped on a Vaio, it'd be a goner. If I stepped on a Latitude, I assure you there would be something wrong with it when I lifted my foot. That's the thing that sold me on IBM, right there.

But back to topic...
Thinking about what I'd want in a budget model laptop...

I'd like to see a Pentium M, Sempron or Turion. Most of the dredges ship with Celeron Ms, and that doesn't cut it.
I want 512MB RAM, preferably not shared with video. Expansion to over 1GB is mandatory.
I'd like ATI graphics or S3 (never thought I'd say that). I'd maybe settle for Intel. At the low end I saw a lot of SiS. There's not enough "Ew" in the world for SiS graphics chipsets. nVidia doesn't seem to go in low-end models but in my worldview, I'd prefer S3.
I want at LEAST a 6-cell battery. The cheapies ship with 4 cell models.
And as Tannin pointed out, a 1-year warranty on a computer should be writ in stone.

I don't think $650 is unreasonable for any of that. There may indeed be a compromise on brand, of course, but that's why it's $650. If you can find those specs for less, I'd see reason to be tempted.

I don't get to pick up my notebook until tomorrow morning. I'm going to be VERY interested in how hot it gets with a top-end CPU and decent video hardware. Also curious about battery life.

 

[Stereodude]

Odd, I don't use my laptop as a step ladder. I must be missing something.

 

[CougTek]

Regarding the Thinkpads...Is the T43 so much better than anything else? I mean, there's a Z series with identical specifications that cost 100$ less. What has the fabulous T43 over the other Thinkpad series, other than hype?

And there price difference between the Thinkpad and rest of the world is huge. Take the T43 I'm considering versus Merc's cowbook :

• Thinkpad T43
  Pentium M 740 1.73GHz
  512MB PC2-4200
  40GB ATA-100 5400rpm
  CD-RW/DVD-ROM combo
  14" XGA display
  integrated Intel GMA 900 (graphics)
  Intel PRO/Wireless 2200BG
  Gagabit LAN
  Modem 56K
  WinXP Pro
  ~5lbs
  
  GetAWAY! MX7515
  Athlon 64 4000+ 2.6GHz (insane for a laptop)
  1GB PC2700
  100GB 4200rpm
  DVD writer
  15.4" WXGA display
  ATI X600 GPU
  some kind of 802.11b/g wireless device
  100Mbit LAN
  Modem 56K
  WinXP home
  ~7.5lbs

Both are same price. Both have one year warranty. One is light in weight and in features, the other is heavy, both in weight and features. I realize that one is a portable computer and the other is a DTR, but still.

 

[Stereodude]

Hoolie Doolie! I always knew Dell were a bit on the substandard side, but did you read the fine print? 90 day warranty! Strike me lizard up a gum tree, that sucks serious dishwater. If that's the "confidence" Dell have in their products, you can count me out. 90 days! Unbeleviable!

What bloody century is this?

It's called "How to hit a pricepoint 101". They make the product cheaper by reducing the warranty. You might have noticed the HD makers tried this stunt a few years ago. If you want a longer warranty on a Dell, you simply buy it.

 

[Tannin]

Lots of Thinkpads have Firewire. Mine does, for example, and that one is 18 months old. Currently the top models have it, of course, but you also find Firewire on many of the lower mid-range units. For example one we sold the other day was a Pentium M 1.6 512MB DDR2, on-board Intel graphics, XP Pro, Firewire, 60GB, DVDRW, wireless LAN. I can't remember if that one has gigabit ethernet or just 10/100. Don't care really, but maybe it was gigabit.

Are they perfect? No. Fujitsus are faster for equivalent specs (don't ask me how or why, they just are). Thinkpads only have a scungy 2 USB ports, which doesn't cut it these days. They ship with Sonic burning software, which is the absolute pits, and Norton Anti-virus, about which the less said the better. But both pox-ridden programs uninstall in the first ten minutes of ownership -providing a handy performance boost - and the remainder of the bundled software is either unexceptionable and of no account, or better thought-out than 90% of the competition (the easy eject utility, for example, is a mile better than the Windows default system).

All in all, Thinkpads are the best laptops around. I just hope that Lenovo don't screw them up in pursuit of a fast dollar.

Please

 

[Tannin]

R Series for me, thankyou. Ultimate weight is irrelevant. Performance ain't.

 

[Tannin]

If reducing a warranty makes a product appreciably cheaper, it is a very unreliable product. Economics 101.

 

[CougTek]

I, a 125kg person,...

Wow, you've lost 55lbs since two years ago. Congrats.

Also curious about battery life.

No more than an hour and a half, even with the 8 cells battery.

And I had all the above specifications for a decent price, but you all booed me when I told you the brand.

 

[Handruin]

fixed the really long URL...carry on with your discussion...

 

[Mercutio]

Odd, I don't use my laptop as a step ladder. I must be missing something.

I was doing a deployment, in a room with several dozen of them. Someone set one, open, on the floor under a table I was sitting at. I stepped on it standing up. Some keycaps came off. I put them back on and the machine was fine.
No matter how you look at it, that's a torture test.

Yes Coug, I've lost some weight. I'm not sure how, as my diet is the same and I haven't ever done any kind of workout.
And, if you'll note, I DIDN'T boo a $375 HP.

As far as the Tseries, it's about quality construction and low weight. It's a truly portable computer. I have a T40 as well (mine has a Radeon 9200 in it. Not sure when they started putting in Intel). The formfactor and chassis design are extraordinary. The Ultrabase quasi-dock is worth its weight in gold (I leave mine at home - with it on, I think the laptop weighs about 7.5lbs as well, but then it has a 7 hour battery life as well.
I can't speak to the Rseries. Tannin does say much the same thing. So it's all about what kind of investment you're looking to make.

 

[Mercutio]

Looks like the battery is good for 2 hours, 7 minutes. I just watched a DVD on it, and that's how far it got. Not bad.

 

[e_dawg]

Absolutely love the T42 I have for work. The built in Wi-Fi works really well and so does the Ultrabay and docking system.

One thing I am impressed with that nobody has commented on is the docking. I dock/undock every day to take the laptop home at night and back to work in the morning. I am actually quite surprised that there has been no mechanical or electrical failure with the docking system or the connector over the last 1.5 years I have been using the same dock or the T23's connector that I was using until I recently got the T42 a few months ago.

The battery life is good at around 3 hours, and I like the Battery Maximiser application that shows you the % battery life in the taskbar all the time. The screen is bright and sharp, and the keyboard is pure IBM perfection.

I often take the optical drive out of the Ultrabay since I rarely use it, and it reduces travel weight by a quarter pound.

One nice IBM touch that nobody else seems to have is the keyboard light that you can use in dark rooms or on an airplane. So useful but nobody else has it!

One thing I don't like about the IBM keyboards is that they don't have Windows keys or the context menu key. No matter, I use the Windows remapkey utility to make F1 the Windows key and Insert the context menu key. This kills two birds with one stone: not only do I get the Windows and context menu keys back on my keyboard, but I disable the F1 and Insert keys which cause a whole bunch of annoyance when they are pressed accidentally.

I think a couple reasons the T series is preferable to the R series is the Ultrabay configurability and the weight savings for equivalent spec machine.

Do I like the T42? Absolutely. If I had to buy a laptop with my own money, this is exactly what I would buy.