Intel 13900k and 14900k chip failures

[ddrueding]

Certainly looks bad. Glad I haven't recommended anything but AMD for a couple years.

 

[Mercutio]

There are people saying that high-end AMD will ultimately see some of the same issue even if they are taking longer to manifest. It boils down to the behavior of letting specific powers draw extra power for burst clocks. AMD will suggest that OEMs not go over some particular voltage, but just like Intel, they do it anyway in the name of showing higher performance for benchmarking.

On the other hand, apparently even 13th i5s have these over-draw issues so one company clearly has a bigger problem than the other.

 

[jtr1962]

Does this affect the i7-13700h in my new laptop? I hope not.

I think a big part of the problem is Intel's ridiculous TDP, at least for their desktop parts. We're on the cusp of liquid cooling being mandatory at the rate we're going. Faster isn't better if you need the output of a nuclear reactor to get there.

 

[Mercutio]

I suspect your laptop is fine so long as its cooling is maintained. The TDP is vastly different and I think the firmware is definitely crafted to keep temperatures in line now closely with Intel expectations than what nonsense Asus and MSI come up with for desktops.

 

[LunarMist]

You can run the Intel PDT and check the temps and power consumption with CoreTemp also.

 

[LunarMist]

Does this affect the i7-13700h in my new laptop? I hope not.

I think a big part of the problem is Intel's ridiculous TDP, at least for their desktop parts. We're on the cusp of liquid cooling being mandatory at the rate we're going. Faster isn't better if you need the output of a nuclear reactor to get there.

It's normal to have liquid cooling and recommended for many CPUs, including AMD. I think you have not built a desktop system in over 4 years?

 

[sdbardwick]

Does this affect the i7-13700h in my new laptop? I hope not.

I think a big part of the problem is Intel's ridiculous TDP, at least for their desktop parts. We're on the cusp of liquid cooling being mandatory at the rate we're going. Faster isn't better if you need the output of a nuclear reactor to get there.

Maybe affected. Some reported problems: https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-com...er-blames-common-software-and-hardware-issues

 

[jtr1962]

It's normal to have liquid cooling and recommended for many CPUs, including AMD. I think you have not built a desktop system in over 4 years?

About 6 years ago, actually. I tend to pick parts with around 65W TDP, both because electricity costs a fortune here, and I hate noisy fans.

 

[LunarMist]

But the max power depends on the workload and duty cycle. At idle there is not much difference between CPUs of the same family. Do you think the Nocturnal fans are too loud? I have mine of the D15 on the temperature profile and they are mostly very quiet until the CPU is on highly loads.

 

[Mercutio]

Intel also says it has a microcode patch to fix motherboard overvolting coming in August.

 

[jtr1962]

But the max power depends on the workload and duty cycle. At idle there is not much difference between CPUs of the same family. Do you think the Nocturnal fans are too loud? I have mine of the D15 on the temperature profile and they are mostly very quiet until the CPU is on highly loads.

Never had a Noctua fan so I wouldn't know. Anyway, the higher power CPUs tend to be beyond my budget and needs so that's another reason I gravitate towards around 65 TDP. Another reason is you don't have integrated graphics on the high end. I've been done with graphics cards for like a decade, barring some future app where I might absolutely need one (3D design software?).

 

[LunarMist]

I have a dozen Nocturnal fans. They are ugly but quiet for the airflow and keep on going for years. Which fans do you prefer?

The 3000 and 5000 series did not have integrated video, but the 2022 7950X has better video performance than the 2021 5700G (APU model) though that's not its purpose. The 8000G series has the 780M integrated and is the equivalent APU version of the 7000 series.

 

[jtr1962]

I have a dozen Nocturnal fans. They are ugly but quiet for the airflow and keep on going for years. Which fans do you prefer?

The 3000 and 5000 series did not have integrated video, but the 2022 7950X has better video performance than the 2021 5700G (APU model) though that's not its purpose. The 8000G series has the 780M integrated and is the equivalent APU version of the 7000 series.

Don't have any preference. I think I usually use whatever fan came with the processor. I'm not even sure what my present CPU is using. I slapped it together over 6 years ago. All I know is outside of when I'm playing with train simulators the system is so quiet I need to put my ear to the case to hear anything.

Not sure when or what I'll use for my next build, but 780M graphics or better sounds really good.

 

[ddrueding]

The overvoltage can be fixed with microcode, but they've really been trying to undersell the part they can't fix. Oxidation inside the vias of the chips. This can cause premature chip death to some percentage of the chips, and explains why Intel has been readily replacing chips with their large customers.

I'm hopeful that my i9-13900KF holds together until the 9950X3D ships in...a year or so?

 

[LunarMist]

Can't you just replace the CPU if it fails?
The 9950X3D should be in Q4 unless something changed. In a year or so they will be on Zen part 6.

 

[ddrueding]

I can, but I'd rather not spend money to get the same thing. I'd prefer to spend money and get something better.

 

[LunarMist]

You should get a warranty replacement so no costs.

 

[sedrosken]

Personally I prefer Arctic Cooling fans. Noctua performance, or damn near, at much more reasonable prices, and I don't have to deal with that godawful brown-on-cream color scheme.

I will give Noctua points for making all sorts of fans in weird form factors, like -- they still make the 60mm quiet fans I bought for my socket 370/A heatsinks -- but that's about it. In almost every other way they're commanding a premium as a status symbol. They're quality, don't get me wrong, but you can get quality for a lot less.

 

[Handruin]

I've not used Arctic fans, but noctua does offer black fans now so their signature brown isn't really an issue for me.

I don't know enough about the artic fans to speak about quality differences but I've been using noctua products for a very long time and have never had one fail.

 

[sdbardwick]

I've not used Arctic fans, but noctua does offer black fans now so their signature brown isn't really an issue for me.

I don't know enough about the artic fans to speak about quality differences but I've been using noctua products for a very long time and have never had one fail.

Turns out I ordered my first Arctic F12 in November 2011; it's still running in the case I installed it into, despite several systems passing through [EATX tower, started with i5-2500K and a RAID5 PATA board that I might have acquired from a SF member (Handruin? Maxburn?); now contains a Dual Xeon 2699v3 on generic Chinese mainboard I picked up for $100 (mainboard that is; CPUs were like $100 each).
Since then I have installed 14 other F12 fans in various systems, and can't recall any dying yet; decent FDB's help. Noctua fans are more robust (they have IMO better quality plastic, mould quality, and wiring, and my NF-P12 Redux is a bit quieter (no motor noise) and seems to weigh 2x the F12), but the F12 is quiet enough (no notable motor noise or rattles, just airflow), and excellent value for the price; 5 unit value pack for $23 in June 2024.

 

[Mercutio]

I will give Noctua points for making all sorts of fans in weird form factors, like -- they still make the 60mm quiet fans I bought for my socket 370/A heatsinks -- but that's about it. In almost every other way they're commanding a premium as a status symbol. They're quality, don't get me wrong, but you can get quality for a lot less.

I think the Noctua products are more of a "I bought an expensive PC and I'm not screwing around with the cooling, either" deal. I reuse the fans between my personal builds and I don't care what color they are. Keep them oiled and they last and last and they'll stay quiet the whole time. I'm sure I have some that have been running constantly for a dozen years by now.

 

[sedrosken]

Bear in mind, I use cases with solid side panels -- I'm not constantly looking in at them either -- and yes, Noctua does offer black fans now, although as I understand it you do pay a bit more for the privilege of having them match the rest of your stuff. I also reuse fans between builds, Merc, and I have yet to have any of my Arctic fans ever bite it. Again, I'm not saying Noctua doesn't make a quality product, I just don't get why people fanboy for them and I refuse to play that game myself.

Honestly I've only had a handful of fans actually die over the years from any manufacturer, and usually they're fans from Delta on OEM Dell heatsinks. I'm not shocked at that given just how much faster they turn than anything modern -- I think I clocked the fan in my BTX Dimension 9200 at 6k RPM when I was playing around with Throttlestop overclocking on the QX6700 I shoved in there? That machine shipped with an E6300, by the way, but it also could have shipped with a high-end Pentium D, so I figured the cooler would be up to the increased load.

 

[ddrueding]

There have been loads of fan reviews and comparisons over the years, most say that the Noctua performs 0-15% better while being 10-20% quieter for double the money. If you're price sensitive this is a bad deal, but if your rig cost >$2k it makes sense to not screw around with cooling.

 

[sedrosken]

Frankly I'm not sure that using something nearly if not as good for less money qualifies as "screwing around" but potato potahto. I use the slightly louder fans in a case that deadens sound anyway, so it honestly doesn't matter to me. I'm also skeptical that it's merely double -- I think the P12s I got came in a 5 pack for ~$35 US, whereas a single Noctua 120mm fan can cost anywhere from 15 to 20 dollars apiece, just cursory glancing around Amazon. I'm sure better deals on the Noctuas could be had, but this is what I'd have available to me right now.

It feels like I'm a broken record, but I think I have to reiterate that I don't consider them to be of poor quality, rather that I think they're relatively poor value for money. Then again, your point about buying the best when you're already assembling a very expensive machine is also valid, I don't think my rig's value has ever broken the thousand US dollar mark. Maybe it does if you include my display.

dd, I'm curious -- do you get better deals on Noctua gear where you live, given your closer proximity to Austria and presumably shipping just within the EU?

 

[LunarMist]

I have several rear and side case fans of Noctuals, not just the CPU fans. $2K is not much for the entire computer. I figure a good computer is around $4-6K without the monitor and external storage. A whole system with display and storage always seems to cost at least $10K or more, whether Windows or APPLE Mac.

 

[ddrueding]

In my last build I had to buy everything, as I came to DK with a suitcase. The build was just a bit under $10k. I did order a bulk pack of Noctuas since I was building 3 PCs, but they were still more than in the US thanks to VAT.

 

[sedrosken]

I suppose I just have a vastly poorer idea of what a good computer is then. I have a more upper-end build now than I ever have and I imagine it'd still struggle to break the $1k mark valued today, though I'll say that I've probably spent a tad under $2k for the whole deal as I've upgraded and swapped stuff around as I've went. I consider that spending a fair bit on it, personally, as $2k would easily make or break me if I had to shell it out in the space of a month.

 

[ddrueding]

That changes over time. My first couple computers were built from parts scavenged from the dumpster behind CompUSA. Same with my whole first lab where I learned all the things that got me work. It wasn't until years and several job changes later that I could get a good computer (at the time good was about $2k). I was in my 30s before I could start doing dream builds for myself, and then they were only every few years. Now the main limiting factor is the effort of migrating to a new build.

 

[LunarMist]

My first computer was a DELL XPS. Including only the monitor and speakers it would be over $6K in today's dollars. The total cost of the computer, monitor, flatbed and 35mm scanners, external SCSI CD burner, printer, and some other stuff would be about $12K in today's dollars. Within a year about 75% of that value was gone and I replaced most of it anyways. Even in absolute dollars computers were quite expensive back then.

 

[Mercutio]

Intel says no to a general CPU recall but recognizes the issue as impacting all 65W+ SKUs in 13th and 14th gen. Ouch.

 

[Mercutio]

Regarding expensive computers, I normally tend to target $1500, the "nice but not insane" sort of PC, but a lot of my money is in storage rather than CPU or graphics power. I'm thinking about this at the moment because it is very, very easy now to spend $500+ on just a motherboard, where we used to see $200 as the absolute tippy top of the line. We also have $2000 GPUs for hobbyists now but we do have to recognize that very few people need those.

I'm planning to buy a top of the line AM5 CPU in a couple weeks, but I'm "only" planning to put 64GB RAM in it, albeit partially because I have a DDR5-6000 kit I wound up not using. I don't need to change my GPU right now. Don't get me wrong: I want to do that, but I don't need it. My out of pocket for changes to my current system will probably only be $1200-ish. Does that mean a 9950X / 64GB / A770 won't be a good PC? I'm pretty sure that it'll still be a great machine.

 

[LunarMist]

Intel says no to a general CPU recall but recognizes the issue as impacting all 65W+ SKUs in 13th and 14th gen. Ouch.

Wow, that is really awful. I did not watch that hippie-looking-dude on the U-Tube, but in no way should a 65W CPU be a degenerate so easily.
iNtel laptops are probably less at risk since they thermally throttle easily.

 

[LunarMist]

iNtel backpdedaled and will now extend the warranty on the CPUs by two years.

 

[ddrueding]

I wonder if they did it because their stock dropped 26% yesterday, or their stock dropped 26% yesterday because they did it.

 

[LunarMist]

I would not be surprised if they have to replace quite a few, but it seems like more than just that and reputation.
I wonder how much performance reduction is there with the new BIOS. Is it as bad as that Meltdown bad deal back in Q1 2028?

 

[ddrueding]

I didn't run performance benchmarks, but I did the BIOS update this morning and the FPS in my games is unchanged. Not saying that there isn't a performance loss, or that it couldn't be measured, but at least it isn't crippling the system.

 

[LunarMist]

That Meltdown was a killer, losing about 11% on my new ultralight laptop that was overpriced and underpowered enough already.
It seems lately that AMD is a better bet overall. I suppose the new INtel cdesktop CPUs for 2025 will be more power efficient and that they will play it safer with the OC.

 

[ddrueding]

I'm getting Boeing vibes from the current Intel situation, so I'll be steering clear for the next few years I think. And selling off my shares in the company over the next bit.

 

[LunarMist]

Boing makes processors of some kind?

 

[ddrueding]

Boeing changed leadership (and ethics) a while ago, and can't seem to get out of their own way since.

A very insightful look into the situation: