Intel Coffee Lake Another Rush Job

[sechs]

[video=youtube_share;JFbUeFU-oOY]https://youtu.be/JFbUeFU-oOY[/video]

tl;dr: Coffee Lake is basically Kaby Lake with two more cores. Z370 is just Z270 with updates for more cores. Non-K SKUs currently pointless. No released retail pricing. Availability is very low. Intel is still the performance king, but the Ryzen 1700 probably still the best deal. There are rumours that there will be an eight-core chip for Z390. Intel should have just waited to do it right.


Based on other reading and viewing, it's clear that Intel moved up the release of Coffee Lake just to quash the resurgence of AMD. In doing so, they're cannibalizing seventh-gen processor sales -- but, unlike AMD, they can eat their own young without too many problems. There aren't going to be a lot of actual processors available until next year, and lower-end chipsets probably won't ship until Q2, anyway.

On the other hand, it sounds like motherboard manufacturers are really getting the shaft due to the new chipset requirement. Since AMD did so well with Ryzen, they got caught with too much stock in Intel 200-series boards and not enough AMD 300-series boards. Now those Intel boards are going to be a tough sell. And they've had to produce a new board which, luckily for them, can be very similar to the previous generation boards.

We can hope that this move leads to price drops on Intel 7th-gen gear, as well as Ryzen.

 

[Handruin]

Using the phrase of rush job typically implies a negative connotation related to poor quality. I'm not aware (yet) of Coffee Lake being of lesser quality in any way. Intel certainly pushed forward their schedule at a much-increased rate to compensate for AMD's new product line. Overall this just tells me more of the same that we already know which is competition is good, AMD makes a less-expensive and better value CPU when compared to Intel but Intel is still a performance king if you're willing to pay the price. A 5GHz 8700K OC seems pretty interesting but still not enough to get me to upgrade from my 4790K.

 

[Stereodude]

So what idiot at AMD thought it was a good idea to make sure their chipset would be confused with the Intel ones. No one was going to confuse AM3 with Z77 or Z87, but they had to roll out a 300 series chipsets when Intel had 200 series chipsets, and now Intel has 300 series chipsets too.

 

[LunarMist]

It looks good to me other that the damned OS needed. It's one more reason to avoid the AMD.

 

[CougTek]

So what idiot at AMD thought it was a good idea to make sure their chipset would be confused with the Intel ones. No one was going to confuse AM3 with Z77 or Z87, but they had to roll out a 300 series chipsets when Intel had 200 series chipsets, and now Intel has 300 series chipsets too.

You seem confused. AMD rolled out their 300 series chipset well before Intel launched their own. The idiots, if idiots there are, are on Intel's marketing team.

 

[Stereodude]

You seem confused. AMD rolled out their 300 series chipset well before Intel launched their own. The idiots, if idiots there are, are on Intel's marketing team.

I'm not confused at all. Perhaps you need to brush up on your English. My post indicates the proper order of events.

But, you're really trying to tell me that if Intel had launched a platform and called it AM3 before AMD did, AMD would would be the idiots for continuing their established naming scheme? And, Intel wouldn't deserve any scorn for intentionally confusing the marketplace?

 

[LunarMist]

The nomenclature may have been determined well in advance.

 

[CougTek]

Perhaps you need to brush up on your English.

You're a little man. A very little man.

 

[time]

So what idiot at AMD thought it was a good idea to make sure their chipset would be confused with the Intel ones. No one was going to confuse AM3 with Z77 or Z87, but they had to roll out a 300 series chipsets when Intel had 200 series chipsets, and now Intel has 300 series chipsets too.

AMD had announced the AM4 platform by May 2015.
Intel released their 100 series chipsets in 3rd quarter 2015.
AMD released their 300 series chipsets in September 2016.
Intel released their 200 series chipsets in January 2017.

It seems likely that AMD might have used 100 as the numbering to succeed their 900 series chipsets, except for the possible confusion with Intel's equivalent. The 200 series from Intel was expected soon, so they presumably elected to skip to 300. It was entirely Intel's decision to bring forward their own 300 series announcement by a year or two.

 

[sechs]

Using the phrase of rush job typically implies a negative connotation related to poor quality.

If you look at this launch, it is a rush job.

There's really low availability, the motherboards aren't all there, and there's no middle- and low-end chipsets/boards for those chips. Intel isn't showing off the superiority of their execution here, because this is the second half-assed launch in a row.

Basically, it looks like marketing is running around like chickens without heads.

 

[sechs]

So what idiot at AMD thought it was a good idea to make sure their chipset would be confused with the Intel ones.

You mean marketing genius.

People were complaining that reviewers were blowing time on X299 motherboards when X399 was already in the wings. X299 was old news. People wanted to know about AMD and not Intel just based on the names.

The problem is that Intel didn't come up with a counter-naming scheme, like skipping to 400. They've just continued to walk right into the confusion.

 

[sechs]

It looks good to me other that the damned OS needed. It's one more reason to avoid the AMD.

Huh?

 

[LunarMist]

Those are two unrelated sentences.

Having more Intel options makes AMD even less interesting to me.
All the new Intel/AMD products require Windows 10, so I'm not buying any until absolutely necessary.

 

[jtr1962]

All the new Intel/AMD products require Windows 10, so I'm not buying any until absolutely necessary.

+1000 to that. My last system was still mostly serving me well when it was over ten years old. My present system is nearly 5 years old. However, given the slower rate of CPU advances since then it's highly likely I'll get a good ten more years out of this system. So maybe around 2027 or thereabouts I'll be looking to upgrade, but that will be long after Windows 10 is mostly in the dustbin of history.

Can't you use some flavor of Linux on the new AMD/Intel products?

 

[LunarMist]

+1000 to that. My last system was still mostly serving me well when it was over ten years old. My present system is nearly 5 years old. However, given the slower rate of CPU advances since then it's highly likely I'll get a good ten more years out of this system. So maybe around 2027 or thereabouts I'll be looking to upgrade, but that will be long after Windows 10 is mostly in the dustbin of history.

Can't you use some flavor of Linux on the new AMD/Intel products?

I will use Windows 10 in the next build, but then disconnect it from the interwebs which is more of a pain in daily use.

 

[Chewy509]

Is Coffee Lake a rush job? I would wait for the errata to be published to find out...

FYI: 7th Gen spec update + errata
https://www.intel.com/content/dam/w...n-updates/7th-gen-core-family-spec-update.pdf

From the doc, it would appear that some 8th gen CPUs are really 7th gen CPUs rebranded...

 

[Chewy509]

+1000 to that. My last system was still mostly serving me well when it was over ten years old. My present system is nearly 5 years old. However, given the slower rate of CPU advances since then it's highly likely I'll get a good ten more years out of this system. So maybe around 2027 or thereabouts I'll be looking to upgrade, but that will be long after Windows 10 is mostly in the dustbin of history.

IIRC, MS has said that Windows 10 will be the last discrete version of Windows, and all future versions will simply be updates to the platform.
https://www.theverge.com/2015/5/7/8568473/windows-10-last-version-of-windows

Can't you use some flavor of Linux on the new AMD/Intel products?

Considering both AMD and Intel have developers for both the kernel and various components of X and Wayland, I'm sure GNU/Linux will be very well supported by both going forward.

 

[sechs]

From the doc, it would appear that some 8th gen CPUs are really 7th gen CPUs rebranded...

I seems hard to believe that they wouldn't fix some of that stuff in the respin, but here we are....

 

[sechs]

[video=youtube_share;zYbx16VxoAQ]https://youtu.be/zYbx16VxoAQ[/video]
tl;dr: Intel Coffee Lake line-up doesn't make any sense. If you're a gamer, there's no reason to get the i7s, because the additional performance is not worth the cost. i5s make more sense; Ryzen makes even more sense. Sink the savings into a better graphics card for better gaming performance; you'll get more bang for your buck. If you do productivity applications, Ryzen still has better price/performance.

Perhaps if the prices drop on the now-forsaken Kaby Lake chips, they will make sense -- even if the motherboards are a dead end.

 

[LunarMist]

[video=youtube_share;zYbx16VxoAQ]https://youtu.be/zYbx16VxoAQ[/video]
tl;dr: Intel Coffee Lake line-up doesn't make any sense. If you're a gamer, there's no reason to get the i7s, because the additional performance is not worth the cost. i5s make more sense; Ryzen makes even more sense. Sink the savings into a better graphics card for better gaming performance; you'll get more bang for your buck. If you do productivity applications, Ryzen still has better price/performance.

Perhaps if the prices drop on the now-forsaken Kaby Lake chips, they will make sense -- even if the motherboards are a dead end.

I'm sure the products are developed well ahead of time and sometimes miss the exact market timing, but I'm not hearing anything from the crackpot worth wasting 25 minutes.
If the Coffeepot functions properly and the issue is simply paying a few bucks more, I'd be all for that option. :lol:

 

[ddrueding]

Indeed. "Not worth the cost" is subjective. Certainly a better value than the second Titan XP.

 

[LunarMist]

Indeed. "Not worth the cost" is subjective. Certainly a better value than the second Titan XP.

6 cores has been a decent number for a while and those CPUs were quite expensive not all that long ago.
People who can't afford or justify a $370 CPU should be using an i5 or something else rather than complaining about it.

 

[Stereodude]

I think Sechs must have had a pet killed at the hands of an Intel CPU or something with all that pent up angst.

 

[LunarMist]

Worse than the AMD that destroyed my $3K scanner many years ago?

 

[Handruin]

How did AMD destroy your scanner?

 

[LunarMist]

Something on the mainboard. It was a long time ago. I don't think AMD sells boards anymore.

 

[Handruin]

Did AMD ever sell motherboards? I'm still not seeing how this could be AMD's fault if the motherboard manufacturer had a defect.

 

[fb]

It sounds like it might have been an Abit motherboard...

 

[LunarMist]

I'm pretty sure it was AMD. The departed Merc would probably know.

It was after my Abit BX boards.

 

[sdbardwick]

AFAIK, AMD never marketed motherboards - I would have probably bought a couple if they had, and I cannot recall even considering an AMD made motherboard.
IMHO, the most probable killers would be the (1) power supply/brick for the scanner or (2) computer power supply as cheaply built PSU could go WILDLY out of spec, and potentially trash the 5 volt side of motherboard as well as any expansion card that used 5 volts heavily, like old SCSI adapters.

 

[sechs]

6 cores has been a decent number for a while and those CPUs were quite expensive not all that long ago.
People who can't afford or justify a $370 CPU should be using an i5 or something else rather than complaining about it.

You need to get your head out of your Intel. AMD has had relatively inexpensive six-cores for years.

I'm pretty sure that AMD has released the first dual, triple, quad, hex, and octo core x86 chips for the desktop. While they continue to have the edge in IPC, Intel is playing catch-up in the core department.

 

[sechs]

I think Sechs must have had a pet killed at the hands of an Intel CPU or something with all that pent up angst.

They've been after my hard-earned money for years, but I won't let them have it without giving me good value. :cooler:

 

[sechs]

AFAIK, AMD never marketed motherboards - I would have probably bought a couple if they had, and I cannot recall even considering an AMD made motherboard.

Back in the day, they barely had chipsets.

Even when I had an Opteron-based workstation, nVidia had the chipset of choice.

 

[Tannin]

AMD does not and never has made motherboards.

 

[sechs]

This is a little tin hat, but folks are interpreting responses in this interview concerning Coffee Lake to mean that Intel *could* have allowed Z270 motherboards be compatible with the chips, but purposely did not, so as to push new motherboard sales.

http://www.bit-tech.net/features/tech/motherboards/asus-interview-andrew-wu-rog-motherboard-pm/1/

 

[LunarMist]

Back in the day, they barely had chipsets.

Even when I had an Opteron-based workstation, nVidia had the chipset of choice.

OK, I looked it up. The board I was remembering was a Tyan with AMD chips.

 

[Chewy509]

My first Opteron board (Tyan K8W) had AMD chipsets.

The main problem with the AMD-8151 AGP chipset was that is was very picky about the card you used, and towards the end it was noted that you had to use cards that were native AGP and not those that used a PCIe to AGP brigde (eg most GeForce 6000 series or later).

 

[Handruin]

Any over/under on what month the Coffee Lake 8700K might be generally available when compared to this paper launch?

Not allowing Coffee Lake on Z270 does seem like a BS move. Not that I have a Z270 or care to buy one. I need to consider a different CPU class that offers more PCIe lanes anyway. I'm looking to add in an NVMe drive but I have no more PCIe in my current system.

 

[sechs]

There should be more chips as the quarter wears on, but don't expect volume until next year, when lower-end motherboards come out.

Someone was complaining (Linus?) that they didn't even make the socket different. You can literally place a chip into the wrong kind of motherboard.

If Threadripper has enough oomph for you, it seems like the obvious choice. I'm certainly considering it just on the merits of more PCIe lanes than I shake a stick at.

 

[LunarMist]

How many PCIe lanes does the Z370 provide?