Musings on a new PC

[P5-133XL]

Me, I'd be waiting for the new AMD socketts before investing in anything. That extra bandwidth for DDR2 may be worth waiting for when dealing with multiple core processors.

 

[Mercutio]

I don't think I care about that. I just want a board to use in maintaining my sysprep images.

 

[mubs]

Merc: I bought a LanParty UT NF4 SLI-DR Expert, but I had my reasons for that and it would be gross overkill for your purpose.

Mark: I would have loved to have gone with the new AMD socket, but there were 2 problems:
1) It's still several months away (June?), and I needed to do this now. There are even rumors that AMD has pushed it out to Nov/Dec.
2) I really, really am leery of being on the bleeding edge.

That means, practically speaking, for me, the new socket is 12 or more months away.

 

[ddrueding]

Alright, since I now have another "spare" socket 939 CPU and I need something to build images with...

What're you people using for nforce4 boards?
GA-K8N Pro?

Yep, but while I was looking for that, I found this:

Yep, those are 4 16x PCIe slots. Shame it's an Intel board, likely the same one Dell used in it's quad-SLI setup.

 

[ddrueding]

This is my favorite 939 board:

Gigabyte GA-K8N Pro-SLI Socket 939 NVIDIA nForce4 SLI ATX AMD Motherboard - $104

 

[ddrueding]

On a sidenote, this board and some spiffy RAM just got my A64 to 2.7Ghz stable, with no fan on the cooler.

 

[Gilbo]

On a sidenote, this board and some spiffy RAM just got my A64 to 2.7Ghz stable, with no fan on the cooler.

 

[Will Rickards]

This is my favorite 939 board:

Gigabyte GA-K8N Pro-SLI Socket 939 NVIDIA nForce4 SLI ATX AMD Motherboard - $104

I bought the Ultra version of this board. Not sure what the difference was.

 

[CougTek]

The DFI nForce 4 boards are very good too and there are so many people who bought them that online support is phenomenal. Their integrated audio (Karajan audio module) has a lower CPU usage than most other integrated audio solutions. Their LanParty UT nF4-Ultra-D is IMO the best value among nForce 4 motherboards right now. And according to SPCR, it sucks up less juice than some other nForce 4 mainboards.

I don't like the fan on the chipset, but the Gigabyte has one that's even more puny (do we say more puny or simply "punier"?).

 

[mubs]

I don't like the fan on the chipset.

That is a bummer, isn't it? I have this on order, and will use it if the one that comes on the DFI is too noisy. I didn't buy it because it twinkles, but because it fits the the DFI and is supposed to be efficient.

In another note, I am astonished at some temp. drops I've experienced. My P3-800 OCed to 900 was running the stock Intel HSF, and was set up 5 years ago and not touched since. CPU temp was ~ 47C. I recently got some AS5 and bought a copper 1U HSF made for the P3. I also added a fan to the case to exhaust air, balancing the flow better that it previously was. Together the three changes (AS5, new HSF, additional fan) have significantly dropped CPU temps. A day after applying AS5, the temp was down to 37C; two days later it was 31C. These are unscientific measurements, made at "typical usage" patterns. But the drop nevertheless stunned me.

 

[LunarMist]

It is a good idea to blow out the CPU heatsink/fan once in a while to remove dust. Even a small layer of dust can appreciately reduce thermal conductivity to the air.

 

[Gilbo]

I have two DFI Ultra-D's. The chipset fan is not your typical chipset fan, it doesn't seem to have a brush motor in the middle. It's spun using magnets at the edges I think. Very strange, but it's absolutely silent outside the case with my ear 6" away.

 

[mubs]

LM, thanks, I used to regularly vaccum the entire case and blow compressed air through the HSF. What I meant was that the HSF was attached to the CPU 5 years ago, and not moved / removed since. The P3 FC-PGA CPU is in a slotket, so it's easy to remove the slotket from the slot without removing the CPU or the HSF from the slotket. The original Intel HSF was aluminium, and used a thermal pad. In my other thread asking advice on thermal grease, somebody said pads were "fit and forget", unlike thermal grease. Either this is not the case, or temps were high from day one and I had not noticed it.

Gilbo, yes, that's one of those mag-lev fans, made by TMD, I think. Reports on it vary widely, from "it's quiet" to "I can't stand it". Leaving aside subjective differences, I think it's speed goes up to 10k rpm, which certainly can be loud. If your case is cool, I think it slows down. I'm aiming my set up primarily to be cool; I'll throttle down the fans over time to balance cool with quiet. I was buying a bunch of stuff anyway, and it made sense to buy a compatible chipset cooler to save on shipping later.

 

[ddrueding]

Just for the record, the motherboard I linked to is fanless. IIRC, the ultra edition includes another 4 SATA ports, more firewire, and dual GbE. I bought them before, but can't find them now.

 

[Mercutio]

The DFI nForce 4 boards are very good too and there are so many people who bought them that online support is phenomenal. Their integrated audio (Karajan audio module) has a lower CPU usage than most other integrated audio solutions.

Blah, blah, blah. I've heard Karajan. It's crappy like every other onboard sound chipset. Envy's been around at least a couple years now and I can only think of a couple boards that supported it. Too bad. It's an excellent high-quality audio solution.

My new system - the board I just bought - will be an x2 4200 + 2GB Cheapo Corsair RAM and probably an X700 or something. I have an X700 Pro I'm not using, so that'll probably go in that machine.

---
Sunday I got in an argument with an employee of BFG Tech at my local distributor about the quality of their products. He swears up and down that they don't make crap. I have no idea whether they do or not, but the fact that they exclusively use nVidia graphics chips doesn't speak highly of their products.

Of course, you'd expect a guy who works for a graphics card company to be a little more up on graphics shit than I am (being that I basically don't care about graphics stuff), but I explained my past experiences - cards getting too hot even when displaying 2D, cards with fans that failed, cards that cause horrible instability in Windows, low 2d display quality... and the fact that moving PCs off of nvidia-based products has for me been about 80% successful in fixing oddball hardware problems. I said these things calmly and as rationally as I could. I didn't even mention the part about nvidia making GPUs from the souls of dead baby ducklings.

He swore up and down that those things don't happen with their hardware.
I laughed at him and told him that Kia employees think Kia makes good cars, too.

 

[mubs]

I've heard Karajan. It's crappy like every other onboard sound chipset.

I wuz going to ask about this. My new board comes with, surprise!, Karajan. Would I be better off using my PCI Turtle Beach Santa Cruz instead? I hardly ever use the sound card now, but in the coming months could be digitizing a lot of hard-to-replace stuff that's on cassette tape.

 

[Mercutio]

If you're doing that kind of thing and it's really important, you're best off with a USB sound device.

 

[CougTek]

I never wrote that their Karajan module sounded good. I wrote it has a lower CPU utilisation.

 

[time]

Firstly, "Karajan" is just DFI's name for their audio riser card. On this particular board, it uses Realtek AL C850 and will have the same degree of CPU utilization as any other similarly equipped motherboard.

Secondly, audio quality from the AL C850 is quite acceptable for most purposes. Specifically, it's way more than good enough to record from audio cassettes!

 

[Mercutio]

I don't know that I would agree with that, time.

Internal sound input seems to have lots of crackling, probably from the billion and one EM fields surrounding tha analog input.

and also

Most internal sound devices have ungrounded inputs, and so do many VCRs and cassette players. This seems to induce a nasty mid-frequency hum into recordings. That really sucks.

 

[CityK]

Lots of ground loop problems too. The front panel jacks on my SFF were pretty terrrible until I essentially duplicated the fix outlined in this thread ... I have a Soltek, but same problem ... same excellent outcome after "modification".

 

[time]

Internal sound input seems to have lots of crackling, probably from the billion and one EM fields surrounding tha analog input.

I agree that this can be a problem, but in fact that's what Karajan is supposed to fix by localizing the audio circuitry away from the motherboard. In effect, some of the benefits of an add-in card at no extra cost.

Most internal sound devices have ungrounded inputs ...

Grounding is always a potential hassle. I note, however, that some people have isolated their add-in cards from the PC chassis to stop ground loop problems.

I'm merely saying that it's pointless to couple any kind of sophisticated audio hardware with the lowest common denominator in audio reproduction since the phonograph.

 

[Mercutio]

I guess I have a different philosophy about that, then. Even if I'm dealing with something on tape, I'd rather have a high quality recording device and know that I'm not reducing quality from my recording method, than just say "Oh, that's good enough" while I introduce extra noise into an already imperfect data stream.

 

[time]

According to reviews, the AL C850 has a recording S/N ratio somewhere in the 80-90dB range. Some cassette decks claimed 65dB with Dolby B, but I recall 50-55dB being considered typical. 40-50dB seems likely if a few years have elapsed (no error correction!).

85 - 55 = 30dB, i.e. 3% of the magnitude of the existing tape noise.

 

[mubs]

Many of my tapes were made with dBX; I don't remember the specs, but it's virtually CD quality. That's something I've got to keep in mind. Having said that, I've converted some said dBX tapes to CD (live recordings --> TB Santa Cruz --> CD) and had no issues with hum / distortion / ground loop.

I'll try the Karajan and if I'm not happy with it I'll just plug in the Santa Cruz. At this point I don't envision spending a bunch on audio. My name is not spelt M-e-r-c

BTW, I've read reviews (Anandtech?) that did say the Karajan module reduced CPU utilization.

 

[Mercutio]

You guys just don't know what you're missing.

 

[CougTek]

BTW, I've read reviews (Anandtech?) that did say the Karajan module reduced CPU utilization.

IS THERE ANYBODY HERE READING MY POST? ANYONE, PLEASE?

Their integrated audio (Karajan audio module) has a lower CPU usage than most other integrated audio solutions.

I never wrote that their Karajan module sounded good. I wrote it has a lower CPU utilisation.

 

[mubs]

Coug, my post was in defense of yours. Sorry I didn't make that explicit. You were and still are right.

 

[Mercutio]

Just ordered a couple of those Scythe Ninja heat sinks ddrueding likes so much. Any suggestions on a 120mm fan to mate with one?

 

[CougTek]

Nexus 120mm. I think Groltz uses those inside his main system (the big orange fans).

 

[ddrueding]

Nexus it is, though the stock fans in a P180 set to "low" work incredibly well and are nearly as quiet.

I currently have my A64 running at 2.76Ghz with a Ninja and the forementioned fans on "low" - no fans attached to the Ninja at all.

 

[CougTek]

In case you don't want to search, we are talking about this one.

 

[Sol]

I'm using a couple of panaflo 120mm fans for my opteron. They're just about totally silent.

 

[time]

IS THERE ANYBODY HERE READING MY POST? ANYONE, PLEASE?

Obviously, or I would have had nothing to respond to. Would you prefer me to suggest that you're blowing smoke out of your ass?

BTW, I've read reviews (Anandtech?) that did say the Karajan module reduced CPU utilization.

Hallelujah! It's a miracle!

The only thing likely to reduce CPU utilization here is a different 'driver'. At a minimum, there are drivers from both nVidia and Realtek, and tests show they produce different results across several parameters.

 

[mubs]

As Groltz pointed out to me in this thread, Yate-Loons are the same thing for less - often one-third the price. Jab Tech has Yate-Loons for $6. If I had known it before I ordered the Nexii, I would have bought Yate-Loons instead. YL makes them for Nexus.

 

[mubs]

Feeling a bit ornery today, Time?

 

[time]

Many of my tapes were made with dBX; I don't remember the specs, but it's virtually CD quality.

Sorry, it's not even close to CD quality. If it sounds alright to you, that just highlights how the CD audio spec is actually overkill for many applications.

I see that Wikipedia claims up to 30dB noise reduction with dbx, but I'd contend that 20dB is more realistic in practice. It's a long, long time since I used a dbx Compander, but I'm pretty sure the full 2:1 ratio changed the sound too much for most people - I seem to recall settling on about 1.4:1. And then you might apply a small amount of extra expansion on replay to compensate for the original studio compression.

The problem with dbx is that in theory at least, it throws away half the information. In digital terms, 2:1 compression is equivalent to going from 16-bit audio to 8-bit. It's not that bad in practice (due to the logarithmic nature of the human ear?), but I haven't got the mathematics to quantify it.

Good explanation of dbx operation

Of course, the linear way we store digital audio is wildly inefficient, but with >90dB available, who cares?

 

[time]

I'm using a couple of panaflo 120mm fans for my opteron. They're just about totally silent.

I'm amazed. Although not as bad as some, 120mm Panaflos used to be far from quiet.

Another alternative to Nexus (chiefly for people outside the US) is GlacialTech. Identical specs, i.e. 1000rpm, virtually silent yet effective.

 

[time]

Feeling a bit ornery today, Time?

Not as much as LiamC, I'd guess, although we share a similar source of frustration.

 

[mubs]

All I can say, time, is that for me, dbx was really good. I don't have an external unit; my Yamaha high-end cassette deck came built with it, and for NR you could select dbx, Dolby B or Dolby C. I bought the deck new in the late Eighties for what was then quite a bit of money for a tape deck. I still have it, and it still works fine when I use it; the rubber parts haven't dried out or become stiff. I use it ocassionally, using my Sony junk for playback and rough use.

When I use the Yamaha to tape a CD on to say, metal tape or even CRO2 with dbx on, during playback I can't tell if it was CD or tape if I had my eyes closed. Maybe I'm just not an audiophile like Merc and you. I'm just a plain ole simple fart.

What was weird is that for a couple of years in the mid Nineties, I worked for a company run by a guy who was in a high-level position at dbx in the Eighties (VP Marketing?).