My 2nd laptop, a Lenovo Thinkpad or a Toshiba Tecra?

[apairofpcs]

Hello all,

My Toshiba A505-S6965 Satellite 15.6" laptop just had it's 3rd birthday. Sadly, my 3 year warranty has expired, as has all free tech. support. Although it has worked flawlessly, except for a hard drive replacement, I'm thinking of configuring a 2nd laptop with the same screen size. I have absolutely no reason not to buy another Toshiba product. Their selection is great. But I have a friend who has had 3 Lenovo Thinkpad laptops, and he recommends (insists!) that I buy one. He stated that they are robust for business use, with a heavy duty mostly metallic chassis, and have many engineering "refinements" that he claimed can't be found in other brands. In essence, he's stated that Lenovo Thinkpad laptops are THE VERY BEST. By the way, my use will be 100% personal. I just like better made products, if I can afford them. Specifically, he's recommended the T530 series. I've configured it many times. Looks good to me. But I feel I should give Toshiba another shot at taking my money. I know more about the Lenovo T530 than any Toshiba Tecra business series model, because I've been considering a T530 and nothing else.

Can anybody give me the pros and cons for each brand based on your experience as owners, so that I can order a reduced price laptop soon after the new models come out later this fall season?

Thank you.

 

[ddrueding]

In essence, he's stated that Lenovo Thinkpad laptops are THE VERY BEST.

I'm in complete agreement. If you care about quality more than price, the T-series is a nice place to be. I have two of them myself.

 

[Mercutio]

I've watched Thinkpads bounce off concrete floors after three foot drops and not even stop running.
They have magnetic-tipped power cords to prevent a snagged cord from pulling the notebook off a desk anyway.

At a time when I weighed 330lbs, I put my full weight on a (closed) T20 and did not damage it. T and W series Thinkpads have Titanium frames, though inexpensive models like the Edge do not.

As a classroom demonstration, I sometimes pour an entire cup of water onto a running T41. They don't shut off from that (though I wouldn't try that with, say, soda) either. The water just dribbles out the bottom of the laptop.

The internal AC plug (one of the most common and easily damaged components of a notebook) on a Thinkpad is a replaceable part rather than something soldered to a board.

The standard Thinkpad keyboard - not the chiclet one used by the T530 - has long been considered the gold standard for notebook keyboards. Lenovo still provides the joy-nipple as well, which is awesome for typists since you can type and mouse without moving your hands from the home row.

Expansion? My ~5lb T420 has three internal hard drives. Running both the 9-cell and slice battery (which DOES add 2lbs. to the system's weight), I can operate for 18 hours without plugging in. Every Thinkpad made since 2006 has used the same power cord and most Thinkpads going back to at least 1997 have supported a hot-swap Ultradrive bay.

I will say that my standard operating procedure with Thinkpads is to remove Access Connections, which is god-awful, and to remove almost all the OEM software other than the thing that runs the extra keyboard functions from system startup, but that's typical of any brand.

I will also say that most people don't need the features found in a T-series Thinkpad, and a Samsung or Asus or something will probably do just as well. The T-series in particular is for people who need durability, expansion and mobility.

I don't really have anything to say about Toshiba, but based on my experiences among major business-grade notebooks, I'd put HP in second place and Dell third.
Apple should probably be ranked there somewhere as well, but not by me.

 

[Handruin]

T and W series Thinkpads have Titanium frames, though inexpensive models like the Edge do not.

I know this is a minor detail, but where does your information say that they are titanium frames? I thought it was magnesium? I've seen Lenovo documentation also say magnesium for the frames.

apairofpcs, regardless of the minor difference in frame material...I'm also in favor of Lenovo Thinkpads. I've owned one for a few years now and I've been very happy with it. I've recommended several others to buy them and they've also been happy.

 

[apairofpcs]

I'm in complete agreement. If you care about quality more than price, the T-series is a nice place to be. I have two of them myself.

The more I read about Lenovo T-series Thinkpads, the more I'm convinced that this is the brand for me.

 

[Mercutio]

I know this is a minor detail, but where does your information say that they are titanium frames? I thought it was magnesium? I've seen Lenovo documentation also say magnesium for the frames.

I believe there's something about magnesium in the chassis covers, but IIRC the structural components inside are titanium.

 

[apairofpcs]

I've watched Thinkpads bounce off concrete floors after three foot drops and not even stop running.
They have magnetic-tipped power cords to prevent a snagged cord from pulling the notebook off a desk anyway.

At a time when I weighed 330lbs, I put my full weight on a (closed) T20 and did not damage it. T and W series Thinkpads have Titanium frames, though inexpensive models like the Edge do not.

As a classroom demonstration, I sometimes pour an entire cup of water onto a running T41. They don't shut off from that (though I wouldn't try that with, say, soda) either. The water just dribbles out the bottom of the laptop.

The internal AC plug (one of the most common and easily damaged components of a notebook) on a Thinkpad is a replaceable part rather than something soldered to a board.

The standard Thinkpad keyboard - not the chiclet one used by the T530 - has long been considered the gold standard for notebook keyboards. Lenovo still provides the joy-nipple as well, which is awesome for typists since you can type and mouse without moving your hands from the home row.

Expansion? My ~5lb T420 has three internal hard drives. Running both the 9-cell and slice battery (which DOES add 2lbs. to the system's weight), I can operate for 18 hours without plugging in. Every Thinkpad made since 2006 has used the same power cord and most Thinkpads going back to at least 1997 have supported a hot-swap Ultradrive bay.

I will say that my standard operating procedure with Thinkpads is to remove Access Connections, which is god-awful, and to remove almost all the OEM software other than the thing that runs the extra keyboard functions from system startup, but that's typical of any brand.

I will also say that most people don't need the features found in a T-series Thinkpad, and a Samsung or Asus or something will probably do just as well. The T-series in particular is for people who need durability, expansion and mobility.

I don't really have anything to say about Toshiba, but based on my experiences among major business-grade notebooks, I'd put HP in second place and Dell third.
Apple should probably be ranked there somewhere as well, but not by me.

They still run after the bout with "deceleration poisoning". But how do they look after the drop? Does the concrete look more brutalized than the laptop, being that they are so tough?

Is the chassis material titanium? Or is it magnesium for super lightweight? Oh, I'm surely sticking with the T-series based on their foundations.

I heard about their water runoff channels at the bottom surface of the keyboard. Do business type users really spill liquids into their keyboards a lot?

Nice touch having the AC power jack connected to the pc board via a removable connector.

Is the new key format called "chiclet", because it has a slightly rectangular shape with concave top surfaces?

I'm not sure when I would use the "joy-nipple." I type with only 2 fingers.

The guy who recommended the T530 to me explained the value of the multipurpose UltraDrive tray. Very innovative method of accommodating different devices.

I've removed a few non-essential Toshiba utilities when custom installing their large suite of programs. Some proprietary programs are a burden, and they can have an adverse affect on other useful programs. K.I.S.S. works with laptops, as it does with people. My Toshiba has a keyboard backlight. I wouldn't buy a laptop without one. In fact, there are many situations in daylight that warrant having a backlight, so it's not only an aid in a dark environment.

Of the 3 reasons you give to buy a Thinkpad, "durability, expansion and mobility", I am looking for "durability" the most and "mobility" the least. I may invest in a 2nd hard drive, making it an SSD for the primary boot drive.

You're one of many who can't seem to give a thumbs up to Toshiba business laptops. I feel a little warm and fuzzy about them because my laptop was a joy to use all along. But I don't owe Toshiba a lifetime of loyalty! I have been groomed on IBM pc based computers, so Apple is not a contender.

The way things are now, it looks like a version of the T530 will be my next laptop.

 

[apairofpcs]

I know this is a minor detail, but where does your information say that they are titanium frames? I thought it was magnesium? I've seen Lenovo documentation also say magnesium for the frames.

apairofpcs, regardless of the minor difference in frame material...I'm also in favor of Lenovo Thinkpads. I've owned one for a few years now and I've been very happy with it. I've recommended several others to buy them and they've also been happy.

Thank you for your recommendation. All things considered, it would be wise for me to do a face to face evaluation of a T530 at some Lenovo business center. Human engineering is a big thing for me when buying a device with which I will spend a lot of time. Function over form dictates 90% of any purchase I make.

 

[Mercutio]

The T420 I have technically does not have an Ultrabay. It has a slot that's exactly the same size and shape, but lacks the release lever. I was able to install a different drive bay in mine (one that I had owned for years), but I had to take a couple screws out of the bottom of the notebook to do it. I suspect the Tx30-series will be configured similarly. On my T61, I stock an Ultrabay battery in and just left it. My T420 has an extra hard drive mostly because I kept opening the DVD drive by accident.

As far as Toshiba products go, I just don't see them in any quantity. I can't remember the last time I used a Toshiba machine that wasn't a consumer-class Satellite. They're just not as common as some of the other guys.

In fairness, my biggest objection to Dell Latitudes is what I feel to be poor battery reliability. I think Dell's service outside of partner status is spotty as well.
HP business products seem to be decent, but they lack some of the durability of T-series Thinkpads. They change their branding often, so it's difficult to make a generic recommendation for a product line, and for some reason HP usually wants a little bit more money than Lenovo for a roughly comparable product, except at the very lowest end of their product range.

 

[Clocker]

I can also attest to the solidness and longevity of Lenovo laptops. My 14" R61 C2D T7250 lappy has be absolutely perfect for the past 5-6 years. It is low end compared to the T-series but has still been great. Reason I got it was I wanted the 'joy nipple' and the option to get it without Windows installed (a version of Linux was installed for 'free'). I already had a copy of WinXP Pro to put on it.

Since I got it, I've installed an old 30GB OCZ Vertex SSD as well as a copy of Vista Home Basic I was able to get for like $20. Still runs like a champ and my 4 year old uses it to play all kinds of flash games on pbskids.org.

 

[apairofpcs]

The T420 I have, technically does not have an Ultrabay. It has a slot that's exactly the same size and shape, but lacks the release lever. I was able to install a different drive bay in mine (one that I had owned for years), but I had to take a couple screws out of the bottom of the notebook to do it. I suspect the Tx30-series will be configured similarly. On my T61, I stock an Ultrabay battery in and just left it. My T420 has an extra hard drive, mostly because I kept opening the DVD drive by accident.

As far as Toshiba products go, I just don't see them in any quantity. I can't remember the last time I used a Toshiba machine that wasn't a consumer-class Satellite. They're just not as common as some of the other guys.

In fairness, my biggest objection to Dell Latitudes is what I feel to be poor battery reliability. I think Dell's service outside of partner status is spotty as well.

HP business products seem to be decent, but they lack some of the durability of T-series Thinkpads. They change their branding often, so it's difficult to make a generic recommendation for a product line, and for some reason HP usually wants a little bit more money than Lenovo for a roughly comparable product, except at the very lowest end of their product range.

Speaking of multiple drives, Lenovo told me that the T530 can house 2. One is internal and the other can be mounted in the optical drive tray, when a CD/DVD drive is not in it. Didn't earlier Thinkpad models house 2 internal drives?

To be honest, I don't know anybody with a Toshiba laptop either. Dell, HP and ASUS seem to be very popular. Considering that my only problem in 3 years was the hard drive, I have the highest respect for Toshiba as a laptop manufacturer. This is even more impressive since my unit is in the Satellite series, the most common/garden variety series in their product line. I wouldn't be fair if I said that Toshiba laptops are not quality products, just because they are not commonly seen. My theory is that Toshiba manufactures much less products than the others above, meaning that most people are not aware that they make laptops. Does this make sense?

I haven't considered Dell Latitudes because I'm not sure about Dell's overall product reliability. I bought a Dimension 4100 desktop system in year 2000, and I used it for about 6 years before I built a new system with Newegg parts in 2009. Many of the original components had to be replaced, including the Dell/Sony 19 " flat/flat screen Trinitron CRT monitor, the hard drive, the video card, the CPU exhaust fan and various EIDE and floppy drive cables. I just don't trust the Dell brand.

As for HP, they are into everything and I feel that they can't concentrate on any product as well as a less diverse company.....like Toshiba.

 

[apairofpcs]

I can also attest to the solidness and longevity of Lenovo laptops. My 14" R61 C2D T7250 lappy has been absolutely perfect for the past 5-6 years. It is low end compared to the T-series, but it has still been great. Reason I got it was I wanted the 'joy nipple' and the option to get it without Windows installed (a version of Linux was installed for 'free'). I already had a copy of WinXP Pro to put on it.

Since I got it, I've installed an old 30GB OCZ Vertex SSD as well as a copy of Vista Home Basic I was able to get for like $20. Still runs like a champ and my 4 year old uses it to play all kinds of flash games on pbskids.org.

Thank you for your vote of confidence for Lenovo laptops. A 5-6 year stretch is more impressive for a laptop than a desktop, due to the unavoidable harsh treatment associated with mobility. Iit's hard to baby a laptop in the field. You must have been good to it for it to live so long! I like that you are keeping the laptop alive, and upgrading it with better components and OSs as they become available. You're squeezing every bit of performance out of it.

It's a good test to have a 4 year old use a laptop. If it survives the test, then it can survive any treatment by Pops. It's sad how we live in a society where people, places and things are easily disposable, as if they don't have any enduring value. I'm like you with my complex devices, by the way.

 

[Mercutio]

How to get three hard drives in a Thinkpad:

1. Obtain an mSATA drive like an Intel 310
2. Put a drive in the regular drive bay
3. Replace the optical drive with a regular SATA drive in an ultrabay.

Ta da!

 

[Howell]

Thank you for your vote of confidence for Lenovo laptops. A 5-6 year stretch is more impressive for a laptop than a desktop, due to the unavoidable harsh treatment associated with mobility. Iit's hard to baby a laptop in the field. You must have been good to it for it to live so long! I like that you are keeping the laptop alive, and upgrading it with better components and OSs as they become available. You're squeezing every bit of performance out of it.

It's a good test to have a 4 year old use a laptop. If it survives the test, then it can survive any treatment by Pops. It's sad how we live in a society where people, places and things are easily disposable, as if they don't have any enduring value. I'm like you with my complex devices, by the way.

I have a T510 and I like it. I've also owned a T23, an X23, and a T61, plus a Dell Inspiron, and a no name laptop. But I think I can put my appreciation for IBM/Lenovo a different way; I would only buy a Lenovo used.

 

[CougTek]

1. Obtain an mSATA drive like an Intel 310

Or the Crucial M4 mSATA. They are offered in higher capacities and perform way better.

 

[Handruin]

Or the Crucial M4 mSATA. They are offered in higher capacities and perform way better.

That price is a bunch more than I just paid last week...so i would shop around. I'm also not 100% convinced the Crucial M4 is the right drive. I've experienced several instances of the drive "pausing" for 60+ seconds causing my laptop to hang temporarily. Crucial's forums show many other people complaining of the same issue. I've tried one of their possible fixes. Time will tell if it helps.

 

[ddrueding]

The mSATA form factor costs more than standard SATA, and the M4 is one of very few drives available.

 

[apairofpcs]

I have a T510 and I like it. I've also owned a T23, an X23, and a T61, plus a Dell Inspiron, and a no name laptop. But I think I can put my appreciation for IBM/Lenovo a different way; I would only buy a Lenovo used.

It's good to find somebody who's had hands on experience with various laptops within one brand name and across brand names. I am not a bold and brave guy when it comes to considering a used version of an item I'm about to buy. It's a matter of not trusting strangers, especially with an item as technologically advanced as a laptop. But I've heard from people that they were blessed with a steal of a deal, saving a bunch of money that was used to upgrade the used item. I'll have to think about following in your footsteps with a used laptop.

 

[apairofpcs]

How to get three hard drives in a Thinkpad:

1. Obtain an mSATA drive like an Intel 310
2. Put a drive in the regular drive bay
3. Replace the optical drive with a regular SATA drive in an ultrabay.

Ta da!

Prices are way too high for an mSATA drive, although my 500 GB drive has hardly been itilized and I wouldn't need anything bigger than 125 GB. In fact, my only need for a multi-drive laptop might be for data backup. I store all large multimedia files and data files on my desktop, via transfers through my wireless network. The issue of surrendering the optical drive for a storage device is not a problem, since I rarely use it. Swapping would be a rare event anyway.

 

[apairofpcs]

Or the Crucial M4 mSATA. They are offered in higher capacities and perform way better.

Thank you for your recommendation. The choices on Newegg are dizzying, and it will only get worse as the technology improves.

 

[apairofpcs]

That price is a bunch more than I just paid last week...so I would shop around. I'm also not 100% convinced the Crucial M4 is the right drive. I've experienced several instances of the drive "pausing" for 60+ seconds, causing my laptop to hang temporarily. Crucial's forums show many other people complaining of the same issue. I've tried one of their possible fixes. Time will tell if it helps.

The economic policy of supply and demand works in mysterious ways. When I decide on what kind of storage device I would like in my next laptop, I know that I will get many opinion here. The joy I get from reading all of your posts is derived from the many opinions about the same item, based on the different experiences you've had with it.

 

[apairofpcs]

The mSATA form factor costs more than standard SATA, and the M4 is one of very few drives available.

I knew nothing of the mSATA drives before this thread. I don't read about the latest and greatest technological breakthroughs in pcs. I'm just happy that my desktop and laptop are purring along, protesting here and there about how they're being overworked and underpaid.

 

[Santilli]

Panasonic owner here.
CF-51's.

Look on ebay, and you can find running ones for around 100-150 dollars, most without some features.

That said, even though Panasonic laptops appear under powered, and over priced, the software is tailored well to the hardware, and performance is not an issue. 3 years?
I'm going on something like 5-8, and I have two of them.

Panasonic used market would be something I would look into. Considering the large number of units used by corporations, they can often be found refurbished.

The IBM's are excellent products, and I would recommend them as well.

I'm currently running a IDE version of a SSD, which is great for boot times. Chinese made, about 120 dollars, only one of the two worked well.
Don't do that gamble, but, it is much faster.

I would love to have a current model with any SATA interface, able to use the current SSD's.

 

[Handruin]

The IBM's are excellent products, and I would recommend them as well.

They were in their time many years ago but IBM no longer makes laptops with the Thinkpad label (or any for that matter). They're made by Lenovo.

 

[Mercutio]

As far as I know, they were made by Lenovo since at least the mid-90s. It's just that up until 2005 or so, they still said IBM on them.

 

[Handruin]

As far as I know, they were made by Lenovo since at least the mid-90s. It's just that up until 2005 or so, they still said IBM on them.

I had thought that also, but couldn't find a valid source confirming this.

 

[time]

Same here: couldn't find a source.

 

[sdbardwick]

The cnet article from 2004 about the sale says Great Wall Tech was IBM's partner in the laptop manufacturing joint venture. Also said that Lenovo had right to use IBM branding on associated hardware for 5 years after the sale.
I'll post a link once I am back at a real computer.

 

[sdbardwick]

Cnet article

 

[Howell]

I had forgotten the history. Particularly between the two chinese companies.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/FL09Ad05.html

 

[time]

The internal AC plug (one of the most common and easily damaged components of a notebook) on a Thinkpad is a replaceable part rather than something soldered to a board.

What you forgot to mention is that it breaks rather easily on Thinkpads (google it), and that replacing it requires pretty much complete disassembly of the laptop.

 

[Handruin]

What you forgot to mention is that it breaks rather easily on Thinkpads (google it), and that replacing it requires pretty much complete disassembly of the laptop.

But you can replace it... That's better than replacing a whole motherboard. People must be pretty rough on those plugs to break them.

 

[Mercutio]

That assembly breaks rather easily on seemingly every laptop, but I've learned my lesson from countless HP Pavilion and Acer/Emachines/Gateway notebooks that if they break once, they're generally not worth fixing. Maybe jtr could do an awesome soldering job that holds better than the factory's, but I can't and none of the electronics tech guys in my classes can either. If they break once, they will break again and again and again.

I will say that new Pavilions at least have that connector on a daughterboard. HP must finally have had too many in warranty RMAs for their shitty plugs.

 

[Santilli]

What do you think of this:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834311865

I like the price, and the processor...What kind of data transfer rate might one get, using this and ethernet Cat 6?

gs

 

[CougTek]

There was a significant performance gap between the Sandy Bridge mobile CPUs and the previous generaion. With that in mind, I'd pass. Even considering the SSD and 8GB RAM.

 

[time]

The advantages of the SSD far, far outweigh a percentage difference in CPU performance, especially with a turbo frequency of 2.9GHz.

However, the NewEgg reviews indicate that some of these units are in fact seriously second hand - not just refurbished - so I would not touch them.

 

[Mercutio]

I'd say it's a good buy, but I say that as someone with shelf full of Thinkpad replacement parts. The 160GB drive isn't as valuable as it used to be but it's still a 160GB SSD. The great unknown would be the battery life, which would probably be on its last usable legs at this point, and OEM batteries for Thinkpads are expensive.

 

[CougTek]

The SSD comes in a refurb computer. You don't know how much life is left into it. How many times its memory cells have been written. Granted, the chances that the drive is far in its lifespan are slim. I know I wouldn't risk it.

 

[LunarMist]

Eeeeew. It's used. Unless they replace the keyboard or sterilize the while thing with vhp I would not touch it.

 

[Mercutio]

Is a used SSD that isn't subject to the constraints of physical abuse really any worse than an MHD that might've been dropped or otherwise had undue wear inflicted upon it?