New computer build for Photoshop CS3 usage.

[snowhiker]

A friend is building a new system and sent me his specs. I would greatly appreciate any input from the experts here.

- This system will be used primarily for Photoshop CS3. No gaming.
- $1400-1600 Budget (incl tax/shipping).
- Wants a RAID-1 setup.

I have some concerns regarding CS3, 64-bit Vista, and large amounts of memory. Any problems getting CS3 to actually run under Vista-64? AFAIK CS3 is a 32-bit app. Are there restrictions on the amount of memory available for its usage? Any benefit going from 6 to 12 GB ram?

Will a RAID-1 setup slow things down? Or would the system run faster with a conventional C: and D: with OS and swap/scratch files placed on separate disks?

Any other "gotchas" I need to be concerned about?


Mobo: GIGABYTE GA-EX58-UD4P - Retail - $259.99 (FREE SHIPPING)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128374

CPU: Intel Core i7 920 - Retail - $288.99 (FREE SHIPPING)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115202

Memory: 12 GB (2x 6 GB kits) G.SKILL DDR3-1600 - Retail - $135.99 x2 = 271.98 (FREE SHIPPING)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231225

PSU: CORSAIR CMPSU-650TX 650W - Retail - $99.99 (FREE SHIPPING)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139005

HDs: 2x Western Digital Caviar Black 1TB - OEM - $129.99 x2 = 259.98 (FREE SHIPPING)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136284

Video: EVGA GeForce 9500GT 1GB - Retail - $69.99 ($7 SHIPPING)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130395

DVD: LITE-ON Black DVD Burner - Retail $25.99 ($7 SHIPPING)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827106264

Case: COOLER MASTER ELITE 335 RC-335-KKN1-GP - Retail - $44.99 (FREE SHIPPING)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119161

OS: Windows Vista Home Premium SP1 64-bit - OEM - $99.99 (FREE SHIPPING)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116488


Re-use old: Monitor, printers, keyboard, mouse.

cost: $1421.89 (2x HDDs and 2x memory kits)
cost: $1285.90 (2x HDDs and 1x memory kit)
+ tax/shipping.

As you can tell by the ancient computer in my sig I'm not up to speed on the most current/best hardware so please feel free to rip apart the above list and make any suggestions and/or comments you can. TIA.

 

[Mercutio]

That seems excessive.
Also your PSU will need some kind of adapter. i7 stuff uses an 8-pin ATX12V connector that I don't think that Corsair has.

And WD is teh suck.

 

[snowhiker]

Core i7 Mobo 8-pin ATX connector.

Thanks for the quick response.

According to this page...

http://www.corsair.com/products/tx/default.aspx

(then click the resources tab and scroll down)

... it shows a picture of a "EPS/ATX12V 8-4 pin" connector. Is this the correct 8-pin connector or is there another type of 8-pin ATX connector?

The Samsung 1 TB drive is on backorder, Seagates has firmware problems and this system needs to be built in a week or so. So WDs in a RAID-1 should equal a Samsung.

I'm most concerned with CS3 and 64-bit Vista compatibility and performance issues.

 

[ddrueding]

Unless you are getting CS4, more than 4GB of ram is a complete waste. Because the app will only use a little RAM, it will be thrashing the drive. A better storage subsystem is more important.

 

[snowhiker]

Unless you are getting CS4, more than 4GB of ram is a complete waste. Because the app will only use a little RAM, it will be thrashing the drive. A better storage subsystem is more important.

I kind of suspected that to be true.

Thanks for the info. I need all the good info I can get.

If he gets the full 12 GB and sets up an 8 GB RAM-disk of some type...I wonder if that would help.

I don't think he can afford a high-end SAS setup, but perhaps some 10k raptors?

A little background. Friend of a friend is a photographer and shoots with a 4x5 view camera, then has the negatives drum scanned at a very high resolution, 11,000 dpi I think. He then imports the images into Photoshop, does whatever he has to do, then outputs to a multi-thousand dollar inkjet printer. His web site: http://www.michael-gordon.com/

 

[CougTek]

A 350W power supply would be more than enough for that system, assuming there's one with an EPS 8pin connector. One like the Cooler Master RealPower Pro 360 would be a lot better than the 650W Corsair unit you're eyeing.

The MSI X58 Pro is cheaper than the GigaByte and I'm sure it would ok for your system.

Also, CS3 benefits a lot less from multi-core than CS4 does. If he plans to upgrade to CS4 soon, then your configuration makes sense, otherwise it's overkill.

 

[snowhiker]

Appreciate all the comments/suggestions. I'll check that mobo out as I've always liked MSI stuff.

I do believe that he will upgrade to CS4 sometime in the future. I want to future-proof him as much as possible, hence the i7, lots of memory, and beefy power supply. I'll definitely have to discuss this with him as he wants to keep the overall price more toward $1400 than $1600.

Are there any 2D image quality differences between ATI and Nvidia these days as there were in the past? I believe he has a high-end 19" CRT monitor with hardware color calibration system.

 

[ddrueding]

I was about to say that with digital connections to the monitor, the image quality difference is negligible. But he is still using analog? No idea.

With images that large, there is no way they will fit in the 4GB of RAM you will be able to allocate to CS3. You would get better performance downgrading the system and putting the money into CS4.

On the RAMDisk idea, that might actually work. But for a little more money than the extra ram, you could get a much larger Intel SSD that would work well as a paging file. Lunar should be able to speak more to this.

 

[Bozo]

For RAID 1 I would look at a 3Ware 8006-2LP: $139.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816116030

 

[Mercutio]

For RAID1, there's nothing wrong with Intel's Matrix Storage drivers, though installing them on a working system is a bit of a PITA.

 

[blakerwry]

For RAID 1 I would look at a 3Ware 8006-2LP: $139.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816116030

Unfortunately, I've found the 2 channel stuff to have some serious performance limitations compared to their multi channel stuff. And the 8xxx series is quite old now. Stick to a 9500 or 9600 4 channel unit if you consider 3ware.

Like Merc said, on Intel based PC's the Intel matrix raid should be sufficient for RAID0/1. Though you'll want to install the drivers when you do the initial OS install if at all possible.

I would only be looking at 3ware or LSI SATA/SAS RAID cards if you require the ability to replace drives without rebooting - which would also require a hot swap backplane and drive carriers.


As for everything else, I agree with the comments that have already been posted. looks like a nice machine.

One thought that hasn't been mentioned - I often find it a good idea to have offline backups. If DVD is going to fit that niche for you, great. But you may want to look at an external hard drive (or cheap NAS box) and factor in the price of software to automate this task (True Image, Sync Back, etc).

 

[Mercutio]

Like Merc said, on Intel based PC's the Intel matrix raid should be sufficient for RAID0/1. Though you'll want to install the drivers when you do the initial OS install if at all possible.

It's a total PITA to install the drivers before Windows is installed. I have a disk image that has the drivers working, but generally if you have an Intel-based system with the BIOS set to AHCI or RAID, your XP or Server 2003 install will crash before it ever gets to copying the files. You can get around that by using the Preinstall Environment Microsoft provides or by doing a bit of piddling around with the registry and some INF files.

Supposedly ICH8+ support RAID5 on Windows Server systems but I never got it to work when I was seriously playing with it.

 

[snowhiker]

updates.

@ddrueding

He will be upgrading to CS4 semi-soon. I also saw this page:

http://kb.adobe.com/selfservice/viewContent.do?externalId=kb405711&sliceId

Will CS4 make use of your computers GPU for processing power? I wonder if that applies to Photoshop or another app in the CS4 suite of programs. Heck if photoshop can use a Nvidia 280 GTX in the future buying an "over-powered" PSU might not be such a bad thing.

SSDs can't be fit into his budget. The email I got yesterday from him gave me the impression that he will upgrade to CS4 a lot quicker than I thought he would. If that's the case, upgrading from 6 to 12 GB of ram will help speed up his system and will possibly reduce the need for a fast IO sub-system from vital to just important.

The image sizes he works with are typically 1 GB in size, but can be higher if the print he is making will be 40"x50" in size. He showed me a scan of a tree that was like 100 feet away and zoomed in enough so that you could see a spider web between two branches, which I thought was kinda cool.

@Bozo

Is that a 64-bit PCI connector on that RAID card or PCIE?

@Mercutio

My friend who will build the computer for his friend has some experience installing RAID solutions at his job and assured me he can get it working. Friend of a friend wants RAID so we are giving that to him regardless. A third drive will also be installed in the system for data storage and scratch/swap disk. He also has an external HD for additional backup.

@CougTek

My friend building the system has had good luck with the Gigabyte boards and simply wants to say with what he knows. The power supply he got is more than he needs, but basically when I told him you can save $30 here and $20 here, etc, etc, etc, he just said, "you don't have to nickel and dime it" just get me a quality system for around $1400. Sigh... The Corsair 450w was only $20 cheaper than the 650w so not a huge amount of money.

@blakerwry

A RAID card was not purchased. Two 250 GB drives will be used for a RAID-1 C: drive using the RAID controller on the motherboard. I hope the motherboard RAID is up to snuff and he won't need an additional card. I told him I don't know anything about RAID and said everything will be fine or a total nightmare. Good Luck. (and don't call me).

 

[snowhiker]

Final parts list.

Again, Thank You for your help.

Well here is the final parts list. It didn't change much.

Motherboard: GIGABYTE GA-EX58-UD4P - Retail - $259.99 (FREE SHIPPING) ($20 MIR)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128374

CPU: Intel Core i7 920 - Retail - $288.99 (FREE SHIPPING)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115202

Memory: 6 GB kit (3x 2GB) G.SKILL DDR3-1600 - Retail - $119.99 (FREE SHIPPING)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231225

PSU: CORSAIR CMPSU-650TX 650W - Retail - $99.99 (FREE SHIPPING) ($20 MIR)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139005

HDs: Western Digital Caviar Black 1TB - OEM - $129.99 (FREE SHIPPING)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136284

HDs: 2x Western Digital RE3 (RAID edition) 250GB - OEM - $69.99 x2 = $139.98 (FREE SHIPPING)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136291

Video: EVGA GeForce 9500GT 1GB - Retail - $69.99 ($7 SHIPPING) ($10 MIR)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130395

DVD: LITE-ON Black DVD Burner - Retail $25.99 ($7 SHIPPING)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827106264

OS: Windows Vista Home Premium SP1 64-bit - OEM - $99.99 (FREE SHIPPING)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116488

Cost: $1234.90
Tax: 101.88
Shipping: 10.55
---------------------
Sub-Total: $1347.33
Rebates: $(50.00)
---------------------
Grand Total: $1297.33
=====================

He's gotten every rebate he's ever applied for (not like the other 99.87% of the population.) Probably could have saved up to $200 if he really wanted to, but was less concerned with price and more concerned with getting the system build RIGHT NOW.

A 250 GB RAID-1 using the motherboard RAID controller will be C: drive and the 1000 GB drive will be his D: drive. He also has an external HD for additional backups.


A quick note regarding the build process:

When posting my initial message I knew the parts were quality (and a bit pricey) and would come together to form a good system. I mainly wanted to receive suggestions regarding things other than the actual hardware that usually come up when a parts list is posted on a message board. I also wanted to learn about problems that may come up when building a photoshop box.

I learned a lot, and a lot of things came up that I wouldn't even know to ask about. RAID-1, backup, ram amounts, ram disks, 32 vs 64 bit, double-checking power supply connectors, CS3 vs CS4, etc, etc.

Thanks.

 

[ddrueding]

@ddrueding

He will be upgrading to CS4 semi-soon. I also saw this page:

http://kb.adobe.com/selfservice/viewContent.do?externalId=kb405711&sliceId

Will CS4 make use of your computers GPU for processing power? I wonder if that applies to Photoshop or another app in the CS4 suite of programs. Heck if photoshop can use a Nvidia 280 GTX in the future buying an "over-powered" PSU might not be such a bad thing.

SSDs can't be fit into his budget. The email I got yesterday from him gave me the impression that he will upgrade to CS4 a lot quicker than I thought he would. If that's the case, upgrading from 6 to 12 GB of ram will help speed up his system and will possibly reduce the need for a fast IO sub-system from vital to just important.

The image sizes he works with are typically 1 GB in size, but can be higher if the print he is making will be 40"x50" in size. He showed me a scan of a tree that was like 100 feet away and zoomed in enough so that you could see a spider web between two branches, which I thought was kinda cool.

I have an 8800GTX, 9800GTX, and 280GTX. I have never been allowed to check the box next to "Enable OpenGL Drawing" in the performance tab. I'm sure it would be cool, but I don't experience any lag from not having it, so I don't worry about it.

CS4 and 12GB of RAM will make a huge difference in files that large.

 

[blakerwry]

Yup, seems to be a lot of FUD regarding the current CS4 suite and Cuda/OpenGL acceleration.

I haven't seen a list of the hardware/software/driver version/OS version/etc that has been qualified for its use... so at this point I've just written it off as beta. And adobe beta typically is not worth the risk.

 

[ddrueding]

I'm thinking of checking some beta nVidia drivers to see if that helps, but I just got all three monitors working the way I want!

 

[Mercutio]

I thought the whole thing with CS4 and nVidia required a workstation-type card. Maybe you should be looking for that particular sort of hack.

 

[ddrueding]

The list is much broader than that.

3D and GPU

3 tiers of GL support:

• No GL: Only the raytracer is used.
• Minimal GL: GL is used only for wireframe rendering (everything else is handled by the raytracer). Criteria for Minimal GL is GL 1.2 and support of frame buffer object.
• Full GL: Everything (rendering/shading/painting) is handled by GL. Criteria for Full GL is GL 1.4, support of Frame Buffer Object, Vertex/Fragment Programs, Cg profile at least ARBVP1/ARBFP1 and all the shaders compiling successfully.

...


Hardware/Application Combinations and Available Functionality

• A) Basic GL Drawing
  Panning, Zooming, Rotating, Direct to Screen Non-Color Matched.
• B) Basic GL Drawing with Color-Matched Direct to Screen 3D
  Panning, Zooming, Rotating, Color-Matched Toned Direct to Screen 3D
• C) Advanced GL Drawing
  Panning, Zooming, Rotating, Accelerated Color Matching, Toning on Card
• D) Advanced GL Drawing with Color-Matched Direct to Screen 3D
  Panning, Zooming, Rotating, Accelerated Color Matching, Toning on Card

...


Windows: Shader Model 3.0 + OpenGL 2.0 card + 128 megs of VRAM or greater

• <= 256 Megs
  • Photoshop Standard supports D, defaults to A. Please note, Windows XP supports A. It does not support GPU resource virtualization.
  • Photoshop Extended supports C
• > 256 Megs
  • Photoshop Standard supports D
  • Photoshop Extended supports D
• > 512 Megs: Uses more texture memory to better handle larger images.

 

[blakerwry]

I thought the whole thing with CS4 and nVidia required a workstation-type card. Maybe you should be looking for that particular sort of hack.

I think that one belongs in the fud category. Nvidia touted their workstation class cards and CUDA support, stating that CUDA was used in CS4. When in fact, the only specifics I can find from Adobe are the CS4 uses OpenGL (and possibly Shader Model 3.0) for acceleration. However, if that were the case, I would think that this support would be almost ubiquitous in newer cards... unfortunately I've heard only stories like dd's where the option is either disabled or doesn't work correctly when enabled.

 

[sechs]

With images that large, there is no way they will fit in the 4GB of RAM you will be able to allocate to CS3.

FYI: Under x64, Photoshop CS3 will see and use 6GB of RAM. To use more, one would need a 64-bit version, i.e., CS4.

 

[ddrueding]

FYI: Under x64, Photoshop CS3 will see and use 6GB of RAM. To use more, one would need a 64-bit version, i.e., CS4.

Thanks for the info sechs, I didn't know that.

 

[mubs]

FYI: Under x64, Photoshop CS3 will see and use 6GB of RAM. To use more, one would need a 64-bit version, i.e., CS4.

To clarify: one needs 64-bit hw and a 64-bit OS for this to happen, right?

 

[LunarMist]

Yes.

 

[mubs]

Thanks.

 

[Handruin]

How does a 32 bit process use 6GB of RAM?

 

[Stereodude]

It doesn't.

 

[Handruin]

That's what I thought. So what is sechs talking about with Photoshop CS3? Is it just a mishmash of processes consuming up to 6GB in that configuration?

 

[sdbardwick]

How does a 32 bit process use 6GB of RAM?

AWE?

 

[Handruin]

If that's the case, then why is he stating 64-bit hardware and a 64-bit OS are required to use AWE? I don't believe AWE is an option under a 64-bit windows environment is it? Rather, why would AWE even be used in a 64-bit address space?

 

[ddrueding]

Considering a 64-bit OS and 64-bit hardware are a requirement, I would suspect it is a special trick Adobe did to help before CS4 came out.

 

[sdbardwick]

Looks like AWE is not used by CS3. From Adobe [emphasis added]:

When you run Photoshop CS3 on a computer with a 64-bit processor (such as a, Intel Xeon processor with EM64T, AMD Athlon 64, or Opteron processor) running a 64-bit version of the operating system (Windows XP Professional x64 Edition or Windows Vista 64-bit) and with 4 GB or more of RAM, Photoshop will use 3 GB for it's image data. You can see the actual amount of RAM Photoshop can use in the Let Photoshop Use number when you set the Let Photoshop Use slider in the Performance preference to 100%. The RAM above the 100% used by Photoshop, which is from approximately 3 GB to 3.7 GB, can be used directly by Photoshop plug-ins (some plug-ins need large chunks of contiguous RAM), filters, or actions. If you have more than 4 GB (to 6 GB), then the RAM above 4 GB is used by the operating system as a cache for the Photoshop scratch disk data. Data that previously was written directly to the hard disk by Photoshop is now cached in this high RAM before being written to the hard disk by the operating system. If you are working with files large enough to take advantage of these extra 2 GB of RAM, the RAM cache can speed performance of Photoshop.

NB: Stereodude's assertion that a 32 bit process cannot use 6GB of RAM is mistaken; AWE does allow this - MS SQL Server configs commonly used this prior to the advent of 64 bit systems. (Some 32 bit processors/chipsets support 36 bit memory addresses, utilized through PAE)

 

[LunarMist]

My 8GB XP64 system can use at most 3255MB in CS3/CS4 vs. 2786MB in CS2. The 64 bits of CS4 is not doing anything special in routine use that I have noticed. CS4 still uses only one core for some operations, which can make it annoyingly slow (e.g., in saving large files) regardless of RAM or HD speed. Of course, it is usually preferable to install the latest version of PS in a new build. It is definitely best to max out on RAM. If nothing else, it can be used as a RAM drive for some other applications.

 

[ddrueding]

I've had CS4 eat all 10GB of RAM I gave it and then want more. The single-core'd-ness of some operations is annoying, but some others see a nice performance increase.

 

[LunarMist]

Screenshot?

 

[ddrueding]

When I get to the office I'll get you something.

 

[LunarMist]

Never mind - I understand now. :idea: Damn, I should have gone with more RAM. Are there any 4GB DDR2 modules that don't cost an arm and a leg?

For the OP: More RAM is much better if very large/complex files are involved, which appears to be the case. Regardless of the amount of RAM the undos need to be written to scratchdisk. It can grow to >20GB rather quickly, so a fast drive is better. I'd try to fit a velociraptor in there if you can.

 

[Stereodude]

Never mind - I understand now. :idea: Damn, I should have gone with more RAM. Are there any 4GB DDR2 modules that don't cost an arm and a leg?

For the OP: More RAM is much better if very large/complex files are involved, which appears to be the case. Regardless of the amount of RAM the undos need to be written to scratchdisk. It can grow to >20GB rather quickly, so a fast drive is better. I'd try to fit a velociraptor in there if you can.

Forget the velociraptor. Get an Intel X-25E.

 

[LunarMist]

Unfortunately an SSD was rejected by the OP; see above posts.

 

[ddrueding]

4GB DDR2 is still steep, but not as dear as the 4GB DDR3 modules I'm looking for

I would love to get the max supported RAM in this board (24GB).