[NEWS] - Nvidia goes for Nforce 4
- Thread starter Handruin
- Start date
Looks like this chipset will have enough going on in it to get me to jump on the bandwagon with one of the new AMD CPUS. I like the fact that it takes all those different CPUs so I can gradually play around with the stuff.
I guess this fall I can give my Radeon 9500@9700 to my brother-in-law so he can play Splinter Cell Pandora Tomorrow. It really pisses me off that he can't play it right now because the GF4 MX440 I gave him last year lacks the required pixel shader support.
C
I guess this fall I can give my Radeon 9500@9700 to my brother-in-law so he can play Splinter Cell Pandora Tomorrow. It really pisses me off that he can't play it right now because the GF4 MX440 I gave him last year lacks the required pixel shader support.
C
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
Yay soundstorm!
Kevin, it isn't clear from your post whether you recognized this, but the compatibility that you mentioned isn't a case where one socket fits them all....just one chipset that can be used with a 754 socket designs or mated with a 939 socket design or capable of being utilized with socket 940 designs.Clocker said:
ddrueding
Fixture
Soundstorm is the only onboard audio solution that I know of that doesn't suck. It was on my ASUS A7N8X Dlx boards, and it was a good thing.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
Hardware 5.1 Dolby Digital Encoding for all PCM sources. It's beautiful, and it works better than anything else I've heard for doing the stereo to 5.1 conversion.
Tea
Storage? I am Storage!
I'm still waiting for Nvidia to get their Nforce II drivers right. Everyone raves about how Nvidia make he best Athlon chipsets. Crap. Until they can write reliable, fuss-free drivers that just work first time, every time, I'm sticking with VIA.
Tea
Storage? I am Storage!
Yup. They usually work OK. But not always. Sell enough Nvidia-based motherboards and sooner or later one of them will turn around and bite you.
There are three problem areas:
(1) The integrated video drivers for the (rather dear) Nforce II boards with what amounts to a Gforce 4 MX with very slow RAM. These usually work fine, but every now and then, for no reason that I can pin down, they go into stupid mode, and output a signal that forces any montor known to humankind* to shut itself down. Doesn't happen with every board, doesn't happen right away, quite difficult to diagnose and fix. There is a fix (don't let that all-in-one driver touch your video and swap it for the Dets) but the fact that you have to remember to do that each and every time is a pain. Last time I checked, Nvidia had issued exactly one driver update for their Nforce II boards. The boards have been around for a couple of years now. That sucks.
(2) On-board sound problems. Everything works fine, except that certain types of sound files play back full of noise and static. Only happens with some systems, no-one knows why. It's not hardware: you can swap the motherboard and it's still the same. Swap it again, same deal. If you nuke the Windows install, it sometimes goes away for a while (hours, weeks, even months), sometimes doesn't. You can replace the on-board sound with a real stand-alone sound card, but it doesn't make any difference at all. The only answer we have found so far is to replace the Nforce II with a VIA chipset board.
(3) General nit-picky crap. Weird little problems that come and go. Nothing consistent that you can ever put your finger on, but about the third time the same machine comes back you crack the sads with it and bang in a VIA-based board. No more problems. (This last is the one that bugs me the most. I don't like it when machines I built come back. I really don't like it when I can't exactly put my finger on a fault but I know somewhere in my bones that the customer hasn't dreamed it up. I hate it when they keep on coming back.
Most Nvidia installations work fine. 80 to 90% are no problem. But, so far, bo-one has managed to suggest a single good reason why I should use an Nforce when I can use a VIA that just works.
* (Also simiankind)
PS:
Our usual Nvidia mainboard suppliers:
* Albatron
* Gigabyte
Our usual VIA suppliers:
* Albatron
* Gigabyte
* Biostar (very happy with Biostar at the moment)
* Epox
* Asrock (if we must - i.e., no stock of the others)
There are three problem areas:
(1) The integrated video drivers for the (rather dear) Nforce II boards with what amounts to a Gforce 4 MX with very slow RAM. These usually work fine, but every now and then, for no reason that I can pin down, they go into stupid mode, and output a signal that forces any montor known to humankind* to shut itself down. Doesn't happen with every board, doesn't happen right away, quite difficult to diagnose and fix. There is a fix (don't let that all-in-one driver touch your video and swap it for the Dets) but the fact that you have to remember to do that each and every time is a pain. Last time I checked, Nvidia had issued exactly one driver update for their Nforce II boards. The boards have been around for a couple of years now. That sucks.
(2) On-board sound problems. Everything works fine, except that certain types of sound files play back full of noise and static. Only happens with some systems, no-one knows why. It's not hardware: you can swap the motherboard and it's still the same. Swap it again, same deal. If you nuke the Windows install, it sometimes goes away for a while (hours, weeks, even months), sometimes doesn't. You can replace the on-board sound with a real stand-alone sound card, but it doesn't make any difference at all. The only answer we have found so far is to replace the Nforce II with a VIA chipset board.
(3) General nit-picky crap. Weird little problems that come and go. Nothing consistent that you can ever put your finger on, but about the third time the same machine comes back you crack the sads with it and bang in a VIA-based board. No more problems. (This last is the one that bugs me the most. I don't like it when machines I built come back. I really don't like it when I can't exactly put my finger on a fault but I know somewhere in my bones that the customer hasn't dreamed it up. I hate it when they keep on coming back.
Most Nvidia installations work fine. 80 to 90% are no problem. But, so far, bo-one has managed to suggest a single good reason why I should use an Nforce when I can use a VIA that just works.
* (Also simiankind)
PS:
Our usual Nvidia mainboard suppliers:
* Albatron
* Gigabyte
Our usual VIA suppliers:
* Albatron
* Gigabyte
* Biostar (very happy with Biostar at the moment)
* Epox
* Asrock (if we must - i.e., no stock of the others)
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
I've heard staticky sound, but never on my personal machine nforce system.
One thing I have noticed is that nforce2 boards seem to be picky about RAM in ways that Via-based systems just aren't, e.g., this pair of DIMMs won't work in slots one and three, but the machine works fine if they're in two and four.
WTF?
Anyway, who said nvidia makes the best Athlon motherboards? IMO the upgraded sound hardware is the only compelling reason to go the nforce2 route, and 99% of the people who have one aren't even using that feature to its full capability.
At one time I might've said the "improved" IDE drivers. But there have been so many bugs and problems caused by those drivers I don't even install them.
One thing I have noticed is that nforce2 boards seem to be picky about RAM in ways that Via-based systems just aren't, e.g., this pair of DIMMs won't work in slots one and three, but the machine works fine if they're in two and four.
WTF?
Anyway, who said nvidia makes the best Athlon motherboards? IMO the upgraded sound hardware is the only compelling reason to go the nforce2 route, and 99% of the people who have one aren't even using that feature to its full capability.
At one time I might've said the "improved" IDE drivers. But there have been so many bugs and problems caused by those drivers I don't even install them.
Tea
Storage? I am Storage!
Yea: they are finnicky. I was going to reply at more length but I started a new thread instead.
I know in terms of numbers, I see only 0.0001% of the amount of hardware you go through. The fact that I've had no problems could be with a bit of luck, but by no means holds any grounds that nforce2 is great.
What I was trying to convey was that the install and setup of the nforce drivers was easy and trouble-free. I've not had any audio problems with my board, and the ram I have works fine. Seeing this from your perspective I understand that you might not order the same exact RAM everytime, so you have a greater chance of incompatibility. I certainly believe you that the nforce is buggier than the VIA...you deal with it first hand.
What I was trying to convey was that the install and setup of the nforce drivers was easy and trouble-free. I've not had any audio problems with my board, and the ram I have works fine. Seeing this from your perspective I understand that you might not order the same exact RAM everytime, so you have a greater chance of incompatibility. I certainly believe you that the nforce is buggier than the VIA...you deal with it first hand.
mubs
Storage? I am Storage!
Didn't Via have their share of crappy chipsets a couple of years ago? Data corruption with their IDE controllers, poor performance, buggy chipset drivers? I guess they've cleaned up their act, then?
Tea
Storage? I am Storage!
Yes, VIA have improved. On the other hand, all those FUD stories people used to spread were just that: FUD. I've been using VIA chipsets since the days of the 486DX/2, and they have always been in the ballpark. The IDE drivers, for example, were a Sound Blaster fruit-up.
Take the 300 to 500 MHz period as an example. People used to spread all sorts of stupid stories about the MVP3, most of them pure hokum. The wonderful old Intel BX was better, but the MVP3 was in the ballpark just the same — it was to the BX as the Nforce II is to the KT-600 is today: not quite as good but OK if you have a good reason to favour it.
My beef with the Nforce II is that, yes, it's OK (though clearly inferior to the KT-600) but where with the MVP3 there were the countervailing advantages of lower price, better range of form factors, and support for our favoured CPUs (K6-II and K6-III), with the Nforce II there is nothing to make up for the downside. It isn't any faster (at least, if any, so little that no-one can see the difference), and it costs more.
Installation of the NForce drivers, as Doug says, is easy as you like. The driver problems I mentioned are not installation related in the main. They are to do with the sort of in-depth fine-tuning that a truly mature product (like the KT-600, or the BX for that matter) gets.
Come to think of it, we used to sell a lot of Nforce I boards, from (of all people) ASUS. They were OK. So it's entirely possible that my complaints are really about the hardware rather than the drivers — but I'll bet good money it is drivers. Otherwise we would be able to fix things by swapping hardware around, and we can't.
One last thing: I'm not saying that Nforce IIs are actually bad, just that they have moderate problems, and no particular advantage to compensate. Why bother with second-best?
Take the 300 to 500 MHz period as an example. People used to spread all sorts of stupid stories about the MVP3, most of them pure hokum. The wonderful old Intel BX was better, but the MVP3 was in the ballpark just the same — it was to the BX as the Nforce II is to the KT-600 is today: not quite as good but OK if you have a good reason to favour it.
My beef with the Nforce II is that, yes, it's OK (though clearly inferior to the KT-600) but where with the MVP3 there were the countervailing advantages of lower price, better range of form factors, and support for our favoured CPUs (K6-II and K6-III), with the Nforce II there is nothing to make up for the downside. It isn't any faster (at least, if any, so little that no-one can see the difference), and it costs more.
Installation of the NForce drivers, as Doug says, is easy as you like. The driver problems I mentioned are not installation related in the main. They are to do with the sort of in-depth fine-tuning that a truly mature product (like the KT-600, or the BX for that matter) gets.
Come to think of it, we used to sell a lot of Nforce I boards, from (of all people) ASUS. They were OK. So it's entirely possible that my complaints are really about the hardware rather than the drivers — but I'll bet good money it is drivers. Otherwise we would be able to fix things by swapping hardware around, and we can't.
One last thing: I'm not saying that Nforce IIs are actually bad, just that they have moderate problems, and no particular advantage to compensate. Why bother with second-best?
The JoJo
Wannabe Storage Freak
I'm with Tea here with my own experience. VIA for me thanks.
The nforce mobos I've used have been VERY lousy with the memory I use, which is Kingston.
I'm running 400MHz stuff at 366MHz speeds on the Nforce mobos, sucker isn't stable otherwise. And this with a few different mobos. The stuff is very good in VIA mobos.
I hope the NF4 will have a good GIGe implementation. That would be the only reason for me to even think about it.
The nforce mobos I've used have been VERY lousy with the memory I use, which is Kingston.
I'm running 400MHz stuff at 366MHz speeds on the Nforce mobos, sucker isn't stable otherwise. And this with a few different mobos. The stuff is very good in VIA mobos.
I hope the NF4 will have a good GIGe implementation. That would be the only reason for me to even think about it.
Buck
Storage? I am Storage!
I really haven't used much of the nForceII, except for four audio recording systems I assembled, and they were coupled with Mushkin memory (they have been trouble free running RedHat 8.0). However, I have sold many nForceI boards mixed with Kingston and Memory Man RAM -- always troublefree. As a matter of fact, I have my last nForceI board leaving this weekend, which was used to replace an aging ALI Socket7 board.
The MVP chipset was very nice, in my opinion. I always liked the Epox MVP3C2. The BX chipset was good too, I still have a couple of customers using the SE440BX2 board from Intel, running PII or PIII 400 chips. With good HDDs, video cards, and plenty of memory, there is no need for them to upgrade at this time.
VIA also did a nice job with the 133a, and especially with the 266a chipsets. The only real problem I ever encountered was mixing certain WD drives with the 686B South Bridge. Come to find out, if you'd snip line 1 on the data cable, the problem went away. WD first sent out snipped cables and then finally drives with updated firmware, so that didn't last to long. I think the best competition for the VIA 266a chipset was the AMD 761 chipset. Gigabyte had some nice boards with those chips, such as the GA-7DX+.
The MVP chipset was very nice, in my opinion. I always liked the Epox MVP3C2. The BX chipset was good too, I still have a couple of customers using the SE440BX2 board from Intel, running PII or PIII 400 chips. With good HDDs, video cards, and plenty of memory, there is no need for them to upgrade at this time.
VIA also did a nice job with the 133a, and especially with the 266a chipsets. The only real problem I ever encountered was mixing certain WD drives with the 686B South Bridge. Come to find out, if you'd snip line 1 on the data cable, the problem went away. WD first sent out snipped cables and then finally drives with updated firmware, so that didn't last to long. I think the best competition for the VIA 266a chipset was the AMD 761 chipset. Gigabyte had some nice boards with those chips, such as the GA-7DX+.
Tea
Storage? I am Storage!
Replacing an ALI Socket7 board is never a bad idea. I can't believe that I used to rather like them when they first came out. Whatever was I thinking?
Well, OK, I can believe it.
Some things age gracefully (like your old BX boards, Buck) (or, indeed, like your good self!).
Some things don't. The Ali Super 7 chipset is clearly in the latter group.
Well, OK, I can believe it.
Some things age gracefully (like your old BX boards, Buck) (or, indeed, like your good self!).
Some things don't. The Ali Super 7 chipset is clearly in the latter group.
Buck
Storage? I am Storage!
Thank you my little simian friend.
Buck
Storage? I am Storage!
Although I agree that ALI chipsets don't age well, I have always had this strange liking for Asus P5A-B boards. Those little AT Socket7 boards seemed to defy all laws of chipset common sense. Drop in a handy AMD chip, an Xpert98 or 2000 ATI video card, and those babies hummed like magic. Oh well, the era has passed, and we are now onto KT600 chipsets.
mubs
Storage? I am Storage!
All my systems are still BX based 8)
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
I just threw away several BX-based Celeron systems.
Buck
Storage? I am Storage!
<shiver> celeron </shiver>
Buck
Storage? I am Storage!
Handruin said:
I know, but I don't overclock.
CougTek
Hairy Aussie
There was a 300 Megahurtz Celeri that had 128KB of L2 cache and that's the one people usually refer to when they speak about the high overclockability of the early Celeron processors.Handruin said:
There were only two flavors of the cacheless Celeri IIRC. One was 266MHz and the other was 300MHz.
Always IIRC, the 300MHz Celeri with 128KB of L2 cache was named 300A. It regularly reached 450MHz and beyond when you bumped the FSB from 66MHz to 100MHz.
Tea
Storage? I am Storage!
Coug is spot on.
Buck, I guess the reason your Ali boards lasted better than ours was to do with your choice of video card. Ali Super 7 chipsets hate Nvidia cards (in those days, the TNT-2 was the usual thing, mostly M64s).
Somewhere up above, Coug posted a thoughtful and to the point summary of why he believes KM400s are such fussbudgets. I misssed it earlier, but it makes excellent sense.
Buck, I guess the reason your Ali boards lasted better than ours was to do with your choice of video card. Ali Super 7 chipsets hate Nvidia cards (in those days, the TNT-2 was the usual thing, mostly M64s).
Somewhere up above, Coug posted a thoughtful and to the point summary of why he believes KM400s are such fussbudgets. I misssed it earlier, but it makes excellent sense.
ddrueding
Fixture
The P5A is the reason I still love Asus. Though they haven't done much for me lately, that was an absolute dream.