Ryzen

[Mercutio]

AMD soft-launched some power-limited and less expensive 7000-series Ryzen CPUs this week. They run at most more reasonable TDPs, under 100W, and can still be manually tweaked with increased power to get similar levels of performance. A 12c/24t 65W CPU looks pretty sweet to me.

 

[LunarMist]

I was not thrilled with the 65W 5700G, but the human user is still happy with it. Performance is relative and AMD is probably realizing they have a gap in the midranges. 80W would be better and not need a hugo heatsink. Is the internal GPU good enough for basic use like playing a videos?

 

[sedrosken]

I ended up with that 3200G APU build my boss was going to take home and use for a home office workstation, and I'm thinking terrible, awful ideas. It has, ironically, better RAM and NVMe storage than my main, so yoink it I shall, and I think this may well become my new home server, provided I can find drives cheap enough for it. I still have my old 480 that I could use for passthrough to the Windows VM on my main, so the 1070 could find its way here to be used for transcoding for Plex. Then again, I don't stream enough and don't have enough upload to do it remotely very reliably, so that idea may well just be a waste of a hundred bucks for a Plex pass.

I want to play with the idea of separating the roles of that machine with VMs, but exactly what solution I want to use for that is something I'm stewing over right now. Unraid? Proxmox? Just... a Linux host with KVM? Maybe a stinky FreeBSD setup?? I do know that it's bad practice to throw entire drives at VMs, but I want to have one VM for file-serving and Plex, another for my network duties (PiHole, local ProtonMail bridge and SSL stripper proxy so my older clients on the LAN can connect, etc) and one more for general use like game servers and such.

Those new 7000-series chips look neat. And honestly Lunar, you can properly play 4K60 sometimes even with HDR on pretty much anything made in the last 5 years no matter what it is. These APUs will be fine for years, they're the kind of platform I'd use to build my Dad a PC and not expect to replace it this decade.

 

[Mercutio]

If you don't care about video acceleration at all, the RDNA2 cores on 7000 series hardware are plenty; RDNA2 supports decoding both h.265 and AV1, so it's good for the foreseeable future.

 

[LunarMist]

So there will be no G series on the Zen 4 since the DNA cores are as good, e.g., 7700 is a direct upgrade for 5700G?

 

[LunarMist]

From what I am reading the DDR v5 RAM design sucks, so it has to be calibrated every time at boot and that takes a lot of extra time.

 

[sedrosken]

Yeah, AM4 machines already spent a worrying amount of time with a black screen before the UEFI sign-on, this just stands to make everything worse.

 

[Mercutio]

Wait. You guys don't just leave your PCs on all the time?

 

[LunarMist]

All of them? Of course not! However, they are all oriented on the Western side. Looking at the analemma for my location, it's apparent that builders did not care about solar radiation and summer heating.
I suppose booting is not too bad, but does it go through that crappy DDR5 memory process when rebooting, or only when the power supply is turned off? I'm also curious if this is just an AMD design bug or inherent to DDR5 and affects Intel and MAC also? I would think that laptop users cellphoneers, and Chevy drivers would not be happy either if there is a boot delay.

 

[sedrosken]

Wait. You guys don't just leave your PCs on all the time?

I pay my own power bill, thank you. My AC is set to 78F, the heat to 60. That's ~26 and ~16C, for those more Celsius-inclined. I religiously turn off power strips I'm not using. I don't even like the idea of leaving my NAS on all the time, but I do it anyway because it also provides other network services.

 

[Mercutio]

I view leaving my PCs on as a built in cost of owning them. I suspect the three PCs that stay on are probably 40% of my power bill, but in my case that is A LOT of computer.

 

[LunarMist]

I usually have the A/C at 70°F in the states, but it could be 3-5°F warmer in a room with all the computers, monitor, TV, NAS(es) and receiver in use on summer afternoons. I'd rather spend money running HVAC than computers. I especially don't like much running when I'm not home in case of power failures.
Normally booting requires less than a minute for the main and secondary systems, and the 11th NUC boots very quickly like a laptop. The QNAP NAS typically take 5-7 minutes depending on model and OS. Synology boots in 2 minutes, but the new models are so screwed by hard drives that I won't buy any more. All NAS are set to spin off drives at 60 minuets.

 

[Mercutio]

I don't have usable AC anyway. Were I by myself, my wintertime thermostat would probably be set as low as possible, but that doesn't work for my roommates. I am RIGHT on the tip of Lake Michigan, and when the lake is cold, everything here is cold.

My file server takes 5 - 10 minutes to become fully usable if it gets shut down and it's mildly terrifying every time that happens because it probably means my UPS ran out of juice and I'm worried about whether or not all the drives are working OK or if an array needs rebuilt.

 

[LunarMist]

That would be a technical problem. Isn't it hot and humid in the summers, requiring A/C? I had some projects west of Chicago in the late 20th century up to about 10-15 years ago and the weather was often too hot or too cold and raining, snowing, or windy. I was glad when all that was completed.

 

[Mercutio]

I got used to not having AC a long time ago.

 

[Mercutio]

In other mildly Ryzen-related topics, I just bought a dozen Ryzen 2400Gs for $30/each. I was just planning to buy a few to cover the B350 and B450 boards I have spare, but a 2400G is a pretty respectable client PC. Considering that it's still possible to find AM4 Athlon CPUs that cost more than that and there are still TONS of reasonably priced AM4 boards, it's a happy find.

 

[LunarMist]

Some of deals appear to be over or decreased, so I will wait a few weeks to build. I will start another thread about casewoe

 

[Mercutio]

Apparently, the $2000 12 core Mac Mini Pro with an M2 Pro and 32GB RAM is in some ways superior to the Mac Studio, but it also tops out at 32GB, which isn't exactly a ton of RAM these days. I looked into it a bit and it's core-for-core about as powerful as a Ryzen 5900 (Apple is a little faster) but only about 2/3 as fast as the Ryzen while using all cores in Cinebench, which is probably the closest thing to a pure CPU benchmark I'm aware of. The M2 still has all the nifty benefits with power consumption and its GPU, and there's something to be said for the form factor of the Mac, but this is from a CPU released in the last 7 days vs. a $350 two year old AMD chip that could be combined with a $300 A770 GPU to make a system that costs about half as much as Apple is charging.

A top end i9 13900k is 33% faster per core and 250% faster in Cinebench over all cores, which is hilarious until someone brings up performance per Watt.

I just thought the comparison was interesting

 

[Chewy509]

Re: M2 based mac mini.
The other point of consideration is the form factor, show me how to build a Ryzen 5900 + A770 / RX6650XT in the same space as a mac mini for the same price? (The mITX pricing premiums suddenly erode a lot of the extra $ the mac mini costs). Even when looking at the Intel NUCs (or equivalent) there's not a lot out there...

 

[Mercutio]

There's about $1000 in budgetary slack involved. Will the desktop Ryzen with a desktop GPU by THAT small? Nope, but an mITX build is within the realm of reason and it'll STILL be $500 cheaper, even in a premium chassis like a Cooler Master NR200P (which will also work with at least some uATX boards, by the way).

 

[LunarMist]

Cinebench is not the most useful benchmark to say the least. Basically it's good for AMD to pretend they have anything as good or reasonably efficient as MAC or even Intel. The 3950X was good on the benchmark but relatively sucked in typical applications that are used. Even the 7000 series is behind Intel yet again.

 

[Mercutio]

Cinebench is a pure CPU benchmark that offers an apples to apples comparison across platforms. Most anything else you'd care to name will be impacted by architectural differences like memory bandwidth.

AMD 7000 vs 13th gen Intel is kind of the same broad story. Intel can usually claim it has the fastest CPU by at least some measure. Right now that measure is slightly faster cores, but only at Threadripper power budgets. The reality depends on workload and while Intel is great for gaming and using a few cores at extreme clock speeds, there's a lot to be said for having twice the full performance cores able to go full speed as well. The reality is that both platforms are really good. Even the Apple one is, as long as you can forgive it for having zero concept of internal expansion.

 

[LunarMist]

The 7950x is running quite hot. I reorganized the heatskink several times and even tried the older one, but it's like the heat just isn't getting out to the fins fast enough.

However, the main issue is that RAM is much more sensitive than the Ryzens 3, at least for my purposes. Basically one must choose between capacity (4 slots) and performance (2 slots). Now I will waste a lot of time figuring out the arcane details of RAMs. Very few are designed for AMD EXPO compared to Intel XMP and the faster ones have truly stupid (LED) vertical fins that interfere with the heatsink or fans.

 

[Mercutio]

What sort of heat compound are you using? What sort of HSF?
The 7000 series are pretty well known for having an overly thick heat spreader of their own, which makes getting good contact with a proper HSF tricky. The components on a motherboard probably tolerate the heat a lot better than you do, but you aren't the only person to report that it's a problem.

 

[LunarMist]

It's a blackened NhD15 and the regular, older one. I tried their supplied compound, some aquatic silver and something else, but results were similar enough that variations are probably caused by the application.
So far I'm not finding good RAM, i.e., ExPo 2x32 GB 6000 speed. What do you use for 7000 series 64GB?

 

[Mercutio]

I haven't had an opportunity to build one yet, though I have built a few 13th gen Intel systems with DDR5.

I know the RAM struggle is real but given your use case, I'm sure I'd err on the side of capacity over performance, which might mean a move to that 1:2 timing that sounds unappealing. JEDEC has approved higher frequencies than either Intel or AMD, but as I understand it, fewer boards support AMD's auto tuning memory compatibility (EXPO) than Intel's anyway, and from what I've read the bias in testing seems to be low capacity modules rather than the 32GB sticks you have.

I hate to say that I'd be looking at posts on Reddit and YouTube videos, but those are likely the place to find the success stories you need to see.

 

[Handruin]

I had switched from arctic silver to Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut and it helped a bit but I won't say it's huge, maybe a few degrees. How hot does the CPU get and what are the fan speeds at when you're running it at 100%?

 

[LunarMist]

The CPU core temps can reach 95°C, the max allowed by the AMD. CPU peaks at 5350GHz on all cores at full load of 230W in benchmarks, but continuously it's more like 5250GHz at 210W. Ambient conditions are about 21°C with the case open. Both CPU fans are on the PWM program: 20% up to 20°C, ramping to 50% at 50°C and then 100% at 70°C. The D15 had two 140mm fans, but I had to replace the first one with a 120mm fan to clear the RAMs and safely close the case. Performance is the same either way. It idles at 41°C where the fans are quiet. I'm sure it will be hotter with the case closed and in the summertime.

 

[LunarMist]

I haven't had an opportunity to build one yet, though I have built a few 13th gen Intel systems with DDR5.

I know the RAM struggle is real but given your use case, I'm sure I'd err on the side of capacity over performance, which might mean a move to that 1:2 timing that sounds unappealing. JEDEC has approved higher frequencies than either Intel or AMD, but as I understand it, fewer boards support AMD's auto tuning memory compatibility (EXPO) than Intel's anyway, and from what I've read the bias in testing seems to be low capacity modules rather than the 32GB sticks you have.

I hate to say that I'd be looking at posts on Reddit and YouTube videos, but those are likely the place to find the success stories you need to see.

I'm confused about what the ExPo actually does. It is just setting the various timing parameters and voltage or testing the RAM and setting them based on that? I'm seeing the application performance as follows, based on the old stopwatch.

Speed	%
3600	90.0
4800	94.6
5200	95.0
5600	95.8
6000	96.6
6000 EXPO	100.0

 

[ddrueding]

Yup, all Expo does is set the ram to specific timings. In theory you could set all those timings yourself and have the same result. Also in theory those settings were verified on that stick as "optimal", but I don't buy that.

 

[LunarMist]

If I manually set the first 5 parameters and voltage, then I can use any RAM, even the XMP types? That would be great for options. I think the 43/44mm RAMs might just fit with the 120mm front fan.

 

[Mercutio]

Based on everything I've read, you can take the XMP timings as fully applicable EXPO timings you can set by hand.

 

[LunarMist]

2x32GB DDR5 6000 at 32-38-38-96 should be good, or not? The smaller RAMs I have now are 36-36-36-96, but I don't know if CL is more important than the other attributes.

 

[Mercutio]

You're between a rock and a hard place on latency, because it's sometimes true that lower latency RAM will be subjectively faster for actual applications in use vs. the higher throughputs, although it most favors gaming rather than content creation, which usually benefits from extra bandwidth more. We're talking about Ryzen here, and we're talking about the upper end of the platform splitting into a 2:1 Infinity Fabric timing, so you're right at the sweet spot for testing the limits of what you have. Ryzen wants the bandwidth. Your photo processing software wants the bandwidth. Seems like you're probably best off with the EXPO timing.

I think the lowest CAS values you'll be able to find with 32GB PC5-6000 DIMMs are CL30 and if you can get there, great, but if you can't, shrug and be happy that you're not wanking over gaming benchmarks. I suspect there are probably gamers spending hours and hundreds on cooling, resetting their boards constantly to get marginally better results than that.

 

[LunarMist]

The RAMs are ridiculous! I already cut my finger trying to install the second one. Why do they need stupidly sharp fins and the socket is too tight. Maybe you IT guys have a special tool for installing them
. It's running on one fan until I can fit the lot into the old case and figure out the height.
Booting times are even longer with 64GB. I suppose with 128GB it will take minutes. DDR5 is a scam.

 

[LunarMist]

RAM is solid at EXPO timings. Dead time is 40 seconds and total boot time is ~80 seconds. My 5950x booted in ~43 seconds. The 7950x may be slower yet with the NIC. I cannot test that yet. On the positive notes DPP is 32% faster. That is quite a large improvement over the 5950x, which is not exactly slow. I don't want to install anything requiring intern access yet. Now I must break it all down and rebuild it in the 8-year-old case. It's not so clean in there. I hate that part.

 

[sedrosken]

I think it may also be motherboard-specific, too -- my B450M Pro4 took, takes even, its sweet time getting to the splash screen. I once clocked it at well over a minute before I even got the UEFI sign-on screen. Meanwhile my Aorus X470 with the same CPU and more memory only takes about 10 seconds to get to the sign-on screen, and then from there another 15 or so seconds to get to my login prompt.

 

[Mercutio]

Y'all need to be glad you ain't got workstation hardware. I almost never power off my Threadripper voluntarily but between the RAM, the Infiniband and u.2 HBAs, fresh boots are actually a little bit terrifying. There's probably a 3 minute period where my monitors are just black.

 

[LunarMist]

The last time I had one of the workstations types was about 10 years ago when we needed it to get 8-cored CPUs. Since the past 8 years I've been on the higher end of the mainstream platforms. I do miss having like 40 PCIe lanes and 8 RAMs, but a large count of slow-moving cores just doesn't mean anything to me now. 16C/32T all over 5GHz is good enough. They have improved the PCIe lanes to give us enough options now without conflicts on the mainboard. I normally reboot many times per day, so the new hardware will have to make me operate more like 10 years ago.

 

[LunarMist]

Now all of my NAds are missing! I suppose Windows sees the same Intels as different, but why? \
Meanwhile I just observed that there is only one Ethernet on this new system, rather than two on the old one.
What do you use for USB, 2.5GbPS?