Simple business PC

[Adcadet]

Hey gang,
My parents run a small business. They need a very basic computer for looking up small pieces of information on the internet. Being able to use the Access database I created for them would be nice, maybe a little word, maybe a little excel, but not much. The PC needs to look presentable to customers, and they would prefer a small flat panel monitor. I was thinking of getting the cheapest Dell I could find and a cheap 15" flat panel, and set up the cheapest modem-based ISP I could find. Any other suggestions?

 

[Adcadet]

Oh, a laptop would be fine, but I'm guessing a basic laptop would start ~$600 vs. a desktop around $350.

 

[ddrueding]

Adcadet, you have just identified the primary good use for Dell. Get their cheapest PC, and their cheapest 15" LCD. The keyboard, mouse, and monitor will all match; and "Dell" means "professional" to most customers.

 

[Adcadet]

"Dell" means "professional" to most customers.

Then how do you explain "Dude, you're getting a dell!"

 

[Mercutio]

THC?

 

[Mercutio]

Realistically, I wouldn't buy a Dell under any circumstance. I'd sooner take an HP "business" machine, and if you know the general forum opinion of HP, you know that's pretty far from a compliment.

The major problem I have with brand-name PCs is that for as long as it takes me to build a computer, I have to spend at least as long de-crapifying the big guys make.

Me? I'd slap together an Athlon64 on an integrated-video Gigabyte motherboard, install 1GB RAM and a 160GB hard disk, and call it a day. Buy an XP license and just the software that's ACTUALLY useful (Office, maybe Quickbooks, TrueImage for backup, non-sucky AV software)... and a nice, big, 19" LCD.

If the PC wasn't one I could actually support for some reason, I still wouldn't look at Dell.

 

[ddrueding]

Dell's cheap business boxes are a lot like Schrödinger's cat, in that they work fine so long as they do, but as soon as you try to fiddle with it or look inside, it will never work again. For the price (with 2 year warranty) you can't do much better.

 

[Adcadet]

I guess there are a few reasons I'm leaning towards a Dell:
1. Time - I just don't have a lot of extra time to build a system let alone carefully spec it out
2. Support - I may not be living in the same state as the business come July
3. Blame - if/when anything doesn't work, I don't want the family thinking it's because of something I did

 

[Adcadet]

I guess there are a few reasons I'm leaning towards a Dell:
1. Time - I just don't have a lot of extra time to build a system let alone carefully spec it out
2. Support - I may not be living in the same state as the business come July
3. Blame - if/when anything doesn't work, I don't want the family thinking it's because of something I did

 

[Adcadet]

.

 

[Mercutio]

Dell support is terrible unless you are on their fortune-500 premium plan.

 

[fb]

One not so bad thing about Dell is that they don't install 1.000.000 programs by default. We bought some IBM-crap at work, and it took a few reboots before it was installed. And then the computer had a bunch of useless programs in the start menu.

 

[ddrueding]

Dells do install quite a bit of crap, but uninstalls work. Also, their business class machines (Optiplex) come with much less crap.

Optiplex - $600
3Ghz Celeron, XP Home, 512MB RAM, 80GB HDD, DVD-ROM, X300 Graphics, 15" LCD

I could do better, but I wouldn't unless it was a favor. A similar spec (bit better, wouldn't build anything that poor) would cost $900 from me.

 

[P5-133XL]

Merc, I'm with the other guy on this one: Dell's have a vaild useful purpose for some. Especially if you can get the right price. Now, that right price seems to be getting very much harder and harder to find.

I personally have three, and I don't have any real complaints. I wouldn't want to try to upgrade them: Their MB's, PS, and cases are all proprietry and I especially wouldn't be adding a modern video card because the PS's don't have the capacity. However, their prices were right and I do not regret those decisions: I could not have built those machines for even close to the money I paid. For one, I couldn't have bought just the processor for the price I paid for the entire machine.

By no means is Dell the best brand, but they are far from the worst. I would much prefer a Dell over virtually any equivilent white-box machine. You have a point about the unnecessary junk added, but the white-box manufacturers are much worse offenders.

The biggest problem is that to buy at the right price takes knowledge of the market place that most do not have and then without paying attention, especially by adding extras, consumers can end up paying far more that is reasonable.

 

[Bozo]

At work, I ask for combat pay and a large bottle of Excedrine to work on any Dell.
But, for your purpose, it is probably the best choice.

Bozo :joker:

 

[Buck]

I guess there are a few reasons I'm leaning towards a Dell:
3. Blame - if/when anything doesn't work, I don't want the family thinking it's because of something I did

They will still blame you, because you recommended the machine. They will blame you even if you didn't recommend the machine, but you did not do your best to stop them. I know, it's happened to me more than once with family and customers. With those low end Dells, there will be plenty to complain about too. Oh sure, it may look nice, but it'll bite you. First, 15" monitors suck wind, especially for older people. They even have a hard time with 17" LCDs. Next, the non-upgradeable slow system will be a plague. Opening a combination of Outlook 2003, Access, Quickbooks, a browser and some background applications under Windows XP will be slow without 1GB or more of RAM, especially when using a totally integrated motherboard (think shared memory = system memory usage = not enough memory = lots of swap file activity). Depending on the age of the Quickbooks version, emailing invoices may still be available. If it is, Dial-up will be painfully slow when sending them out. DSL or Cable would be much, much, much better. Granted, you could upgrade all of these things, but you won't have a $350.00 computer anymore, which is good. Because something at that price range really isn't a computer, it's an overweight ipod.

 

[Sol]

I'm with Mercutio and Buck, putting together a simple business box shouldn't take more than an hour or so more than getting a Dell to the point of usability, but fixing a Dell even once might take hours longer than fixing a standard machine and I suspect you'll need to do it more often.

I actually haven't used Dell machines very much at all until I got my current job but I've been working here for just over a month and I'm already on to my second one.

 

[sechs]

Honestly, if you weren't requiring all of this Microsoft software, I'd suggest a Macintosh. Good looking plus easy to use.

 

[i]

Second non-vote for a Macintosh here.

 

[Mercutio]

Access can run on any Mac with a Windows license and a copy of the software.

 

[ddrueding]

Buck,

What you basically just said is that a $350 computer can't do what I $700 computer could (run everything quickly at once). But that's not really a point, is it? I have had a number of users (particularly older ones) who have refused to upgrade their system because they paid "good money" a "few" years ago. The following suggestions make the experience much better.

1. Leave the system on all the time, and reboot when you are done.
---This leaves the system "clean" and ready to go the next day.
2. Only run one program at once.
---This would kill us, but the computer un-savvy are unlikely to be using more than one at a time anyway.

I've noticed my older clients are much more patient than the kids, and therefore are more likely to be happy with a budget box.

 

[Buck]

Dave,

The point is meeting expectation. When someone points out that they are going to build or buy X budget system and asks for any other suggestions, the most appropriate suggestion would be to try to build a machine that meets both a budget and the operating requirements. I can take the example of an office with a load of Dell Optiplex SX280 machines. They’re cute, small, normally quiet and were spot on for the budget. They look good on paper with a 250GB drive and a 3HGz P4 processor. However, with the standard 512MB of RAM they are useless for basic office work. For most OEMs, office work includes various MS Office applications, along with a few other programs and some background gizmos. Ironically, the tasks the system is sold to support (many, if not all coming installed on the system) bring the machine to its knees. Suddenly, and unsuspectingly the customer has a new $350.00 paper weight. It’s a hard lesson for some customers to swallow, and for some a non-lesson since they always opt for cheap.

When someone comes along in this forum or in life and asks me this question, I’ll offer suggestions based on my experience. I wouldn’t want Adcadet to recommend a computer system I don’t believe suits the needs of the end user. Now, I have had customers that insisted on purchasing Dell because they had a bunch of coupons that could bring a reasonably good system down to pennies on the dollar, sometimes even free. After my speech on proprietary systems and the headaches they can cause, they pay me to sit with them and configure a competent machine. Then when it comes, they have me ‘install’ the system. Would I have preferred to build the machine myself? Yes. Yet, are they happy with the machine? Yes, because they heeded the experience of someone like you, Mercutio, Tony and other knowledgeable technicians.

Your suggestions for a better computer experience are good, especially for the elderly crowd (70ish and up). It is just that I’ve come across many small business (1-3 people) run by middle-aged folks that don’t like computers, and they have these extreme budget OEM door stops that are an embarrassment to the computer world. You are correct, they spent good money and don’t want to upgrade. But when it is time to purchase a new computer or their first computer, I will tactfully offer my input.

 

[P5-133XL]

In a way, this is an interesting thread. You've got the pro and the anti Dell groups and really, they are all mostly correct in their statements/opinions. I don't think you will make a mistake regardless of which camp you fall into. You can buy into a low-end custom built box and you'll do fine; The same goes for a low-end Dell; McIntosh's have their place too; Even a white-box is probably good enough for your needs.

The computer box industry is a highly competative business and as time goes by the generic low-end computer is becomming more and more like a comodity. When purchasing a comodity, it does not really matter what you buy because they are all basicly the same, What really matters is that you pay attention and make sure that you are not paying too much.

No matter what choice you pick, if something goes wrong, you will be blamed: That is just a fact of life! Further, you won't be able to pass-off the repair to whatever tech-support/warranty/service contract exists because you are family. So, please consider the amount of time and effort that you are willing to spend and recommend something a little bit more reliable than the minimum...

I'm not sure how usefull this thread has been to your decision making process. Perhaps a better tack, would be to actually pick three machines to consider, giving detailed specs, including the prices, and having us pick apart the problems with the different machines. At least there you may get consensous and even without, at least you will get a better concept of what the tradeoffs are between the machines.

 

[Buck]

Perhaps a better tack, would be to actually pick three machines to consider, giving detailed specs, including the prices, and having us pick apart the problems with the different machines. At least there you may get consensous and even without, at least you will get a better concept of what the tradeoffs are between the machines.

Good suggestion Mark.

 

[ddrueding]

An excellent suggestion Mark, and to confuse the situation further, I'll submit what I would build.

Gigabyte GA-M61VME-S2 - $63
AMD Sempron 64 3200+ - $56
GeIL 1GB DDR2 667Mhz - $93
Antec Solution SLK1650B w/350W PS - $60
LG DVD-Burner 18X - $31
Samsung 720N 17" LCD - $180
XP Home OEM w/Vista Upgrade - $90

Total: $573 before tax, shipping, time, etc.

I'd probably charge $900 for this box.

 

[Buck]

An excellent suggestion Mark, and to confuse the situation further, I'll submit what I would build.

Gigabyte GA-M61VME-S2 - $63
AMD Sempron 64 3200+ - $56
GeIL 1GB DDR2 667Mhz - $93
Antec Solution SLK1650B w/350W PS - $60
LG DVD-Burner 18X - $31
Samsung 720N 17" LCD - $180
XP Home OEM w/Vista Upgrade - $90

Total: $573 before tax, shipping, time, etc.

I'd probably charge $900 for this box.

I would second this system.

[size=-3]...and sell it for less. [/size]

 

[Mercutio]

That's almost fine, but I'd spring for an A64/3800 for $40 more and use a no-name 19" LCD ($170 - the extra screen size is worth it IMO), and $35 Foxconn case.

The Foxconn case has a louder PSU, and that's the only down side to me, but it's measurably better, too. Those 2.4GHz 3800s absolutely fly on XP.

And I'd probably sell mine for even less than Buck, since I don't have to make a living on hardware sales and I build for a hobby anyway.

The major issue is that my software load is going to be immeasurably better than Dell's. My PC comes cruft-free, but with a full set of tools to do the work a business PC actually needs to do. XP, Office, Decent AV software (probably Kapersky), Acrobat 7, Picasa, Adaware/Spybot/SpywareBlaster, Firefox, Nero OEM. No resident programs. Lightning fast. Zoom.

I spent 45 minutes de-crapifying an Inspiron 1405 today. If someone gave that thing to me, I'd be pissed. The system tray had 14 icons in it off initial startup!

 

[Mercutio]

Also, David's $573 box doesn't have a hard drive.
But that's OK.

Use a less expensive Via-based motherboard, a less expensive Sempron or A64 and you're still just fine.

A couple points: A business PC does not need and may not want a DVD burner. Certainly "fleet" computers don't.
Second: I'm leery of using nVidia-based motherboards on business PCs. There used to be ONE nforce platform driver. Have you guys looked lately? There are eight or ten now, and they're JUST different enough that, say, the 6100 driver doesn't work right if you have an nforce 430. I don't like that. I plan to move to Intel or back to Via ASAP.

Case: No one cares all that much. Well constructed and a decent power supply. There's usually enough ambient noise in an office that a "loud" PC will be appreciated just as much as a quiet computer in an Antec case.

Hard Disk Drive: 80GB. No reason to be bigger. I'd still buy 60GB drives if I could. Vista + Apps will still be around 20GB all-told.

Multicore: Generally not needed, possibly not even appreciated, if the worker bees see a 64/3800 side-by-side with an x2/3800. The business PC will probably be running some MS Office apps and maybe a media player, and that's about it. Home PCs with DVD authoring apps and photo editors are the ones who want the extra cores in my experience.

RAM: Buy lots, always.

Dell's "business" PC falls down for several reasons. They're stingy with RAM. They install a bunch of extra crapplications. They use pointlessly-large hard disks (250GB? For a PC that will never have anything but office and maybe a giant .PST file?). There's the proprietary-hardware issue, that keeps me from being able to just upgrade or repair a Dell, and there's the generally awful selection of CPUs - Dell seems to like P4s in non-enthusiast systems, still, and Celerons in entry-level machines. Ew. Ew. Ew.

Still, given the task, I know I can come up with a $400 PC (no monitor) that beats the crap out of anything Dell makes.

 

[ddrueding]

Also, David's $573 box doesn't have a hard drive.
But that's OK.

:crap:
My bad... I agree that 80 is probably enough, though I'd likely spring for a 160GB for a few dollars more. Just in case they get iTunes crazy or something similar.

 

[RWIndiana]

Merc, or anyone who knows chipsets, which boards are most Linux-friendly? nvidia obviously is not the best in that arena unless you use their proprietary drivers. I've heard that Intel is good because they recently opened their hardware specs (at least on video chipsets), but I'm not sure about VIA.

 

[CougTek]

The Foxconn case has a louder PSU, and that's the only down side to me, but it's measurably better, too. Those 2.4GHz 3800s absolutely fly on XP.

The Smart Power 2 PSU that comes into the SLK1650 has a higher efficiency than the PSU included in 35$ Foxcon cases like the TS-01. But the best bargain in enclosures these days is the Antec NSK4400. The case is sturdier and better soundproofed than the more aging SLK1650 and the included PSU matches Seasonic S12-380 regarding efficiency (although it is a tad louder). The fan grid at the rear is far less obtrusive than anything I've seen in Foxconn and no-name budget cases (which I've become quite familiar with because of my new employer ; a cheapo computer builder that I haven't had the time to convert yet). I agree with the A64 3800+ and 80GB hard drive selection.

My PC comes cruft-free, but with a full set of tools to do the work a business PC actually needs to do. XP, Office, Decent AV software (probably Kapersky), Acrobat 7, Picasa, Adaware/Spybot/SpywareBlaster, Firefox, Nero OEM. No resident programs. Lightning fast. Zoom.

Only a small portion of customers are able or disciplined enough to update and run antispyware programs themselves. The Adaware/Spybot/SpywareBlaster trio won't do shit for most because they'll ever use/update them. The best you can do with these, if you want to waste extra time configuring the system, is to put SpywareBlaster in the "start programs" and create a weekly task for the other two. That won't update them though.

A better way to protect your machines is to install a resident antispyware tool like Spyguard or the one suggested by the GM cheerleader : Superantispyware. While they aren't effective as stand alone protection, they both at least prompt the user in case of IE high-jacking.

Also, Kaspersky is a ressource hog. Unless I'm mistaken, it isn't free either. If you are willing to pay, pay for the best A-V available and that's NOD32. It is quite a bit lighter on system ressources than Kaper and it in the test I've done during the last 9 months (on images of infected customer hard drives), even more effective. The best free AV according to me is Avast Free. It automatically updates itself and it finds almost everything NOD32 does. Avast used to suck just as much as AVG, but since two years, it improved A LOT. AVG improved too, but it is far from being on par with the current level of Avast. I recently cleaned an office where several systems were infected by an MSN-transmitted worm. Their CA eTrust AV program did shit-all to protect them. Some of their systems had AVG too and it saw nothing either. I cleaned every infected system with Avast (in safe-mode). When I thought I was done, one of the computers pop a warning windows telling my it intercepted a virus. I forgot to disabled the system restauration on one of the boxes when I ran Avast and the virus reappeared. At least Avast intercepted and blocked the worm on all the other computers before any were infected. I then did the job right on the remaining infected computer and left the place. If they all have had Avast to begin with, none of them would have been infected (and I wouldn't have charge them a full afternoon for on-site repair).

I'll try to spare my presence to the utter politically correct class here for another few months. Merry Christmas to the others and my sympathies to JTR for his lost father (I lost mine too ten years ago).

 

[P5-133XL]

I'm sorry, But I'd be taking a different tack than above; Not because it won't be a fine machine but rather, I don't think it needs to be that good. 512K RAM is all that will be needed, and a generic 17" LCD should be sufficient.

Agreed, that 1GB is far better, but what is that extra 512k going to do for these users: They are not exactly multi-taskers. A smaller HD 40-60GB is sufficient, but they don't cost any less, so why not the 80GB. Agreed, the DVD burner is unncessary, but non-burners cost as much as burners...; The foxcon case is a better alternative except for the noise. The x64 3800 is overkill, the Semperon is fine, even an old Athlon should be acceptable -- Nothing wrong with a Barton core.

A machine w/o monitor is cheating, they need a monitor, so it must be included. When you buy a Dell it comes with a monitor ...

Yes, the Dell machines are stingy with their RAM, but that's because they charge exhorbinate prices for their RAM upgrades as a way to jack up the price in a hidden manner. Just like their Celeron processors. Again, I ask, what are these particular users need with extra RAM or higher end power processors? From my interpretation of the need: Astetics matter more than performance. Dell's are generally very quiet and that probably matters more than all the extras that are producing performance. The need to upgrade to vista is non-existant and so is the need to upgrade the HW, for the life of the machine so proprietry doesn't matter as long as the warranty extends throughout the expected lifespan of the machine.

 

[Mercutio]

Good to see you again, Coug, if only for a single post.

Kapersky works, and if it has a bigger footprint than AVG, it's still far less than Norton or McAfee or CA's shovelware.

Regarding Spyware... I insist and make mandatory use of Firefox on all computers I support. IE Icons are removed, which is enough to prevent about 95% of users from trying to use it. My stated opinion is that if a site doesn't work with Firefox and IEtab, it's not worth visiting to begin with. I install the antispyware apps for when *I* need them, but I also do provide proper documentation about how to use them. Usually a $130 bill for spyware cleanup of a single PC (one of my customers even started docking user pay when I get called for spyware cleanup) is enough to convince someone to read about how to avoid it.

 

[Buck]

Hi Coug! Nice to see you stop by for a visit.

 

[Buck]

Without knowing the client any better, I would possibly start with a system at $800.00:
CPU: SDA3000BXBOX
MB: GA-M51GM-S2G
RAM: KVR533D2N4/1G
CASE: Antec NSK4400/380WPSU
FDD: D359M3BLACK
HDD: WD800JD
DVD: Pioneer DVR-111DBK
MONITOR: Aopen F2905 19" LCD
KEY/MOUSE: Wireless/Optical MS Set
SPEAKERS: Logitech X-120e

 

[ddrueding]

That is a nice little system, Buck. I must admit, I rolled my eyes at the mention of a floppy drive. Considering I can get a 256MB thumbdrive for the same $8, there is little use for such things.

 

[Buck]

That is a nice little system, Buck. I must admit, I rolled my eyes at the mention of a floppy drive. Considering I can get a 256MB thumbdrive for the same $8, there is little use for such things.

Thanks Dave.
The FDD is helpful for some diagnostic tools I use. I've also come across some older applications for the Page Layout industry that install only with the accompanying installation diskette and CD. Pretty quirky, but they exist. I've used a USB FDD in situations where an internal FDD was not available.

 

[mubs]

Welcome back, Coug, nice to see you!

In my experience, Dells are ok for specific purposes if they're properly configured. I've had a medical office running Dells (~ 10 clients + a server) for 8+ years; they're on their second set of machines. The trick was to get decent configs by waiting for coupons/offers.

Recently my daughter got a hand me down Dell PC; I added more RAM, replaced the video card, and replaced the HDD with 2 bigger ones. Could do this within the headroom of the power supply.

I'd have a hard time with a 17" LCD too; for me, the rez (1280x1024) on that size display is too much. I'd suspect middle-aged and older would have similar problems. 15" LCDs are ok with their 1024x768 rez, a proper match for the size. My next step up would be a 19".

 

[ddrueding]

Buck, WRT Floppies: I know what you mean, and I spec a USB floppy drive for every office (I have each client buy a "toolkit" from me as part of support and maintenence). Believe it or not, the latest version of Primavera Expedition (released a few weeks ago and costing 5 figures) says it requires a floppy to be inserted into the machine during installation (that's what "net use" is for).

mubs WRT monitors: Although I'm not the old one in this group, I love running my 22" 4:3 LCD at 1024x768 (native is 1600x1200). It makes it so easy on the eyes...

 

[mubs]

Compare that with the HawkEyes, Pradeep and Fushigi, who curse 15" laptop LCDs that don't do higher than 1600x1200....:-D