E-Flex (i.e. the Volt) requires a unique structure because of the special powertrain/packaging requirements (i.e. electric drive motors, battery pack, and powerplant for extended range). Gotta remember that it is truly an electrically driven vehicle all of the time. It's not a hybrid with anything that resembles a conventional power train.
Something Random
- Thread starter ddrueding
- Start date
E-Flex (i.e. the Volt) requires a unique structure because of the special powertrain/packaging requirements (i.e. electric drive motors, battery pack, and powerplant for extended range). Gotta remember that it is truly an electrically driven vehicle all of the time. It's not a hybrid with anything that resembles a conventional power train.
Bozo
Storage? I am Storage!
So it has a gasoline/diesel motor that turns a generator to make electric for the batteries to supply power to the electric motors?
I would guess it's a very small diesel motor that runs on corn oil?
Bozo :joker:
Fushigi
Storage Is My Life
Clocker, please suggest to the team that they design for a decent sized trunk. Oh, 60/40 folding rear seat's a must as well; I won't buy a car without it. I've taken a glance at the reviews for the TCH and the batteries intrude too much and make the trunk too small for me to consider the vehicle. Of course, the new model being severely beaten by the ugly stick doesn't help much.
I honestly don't know much of anything about the Volt or GM's E-Flex initiative. I'd appreciate it if you can update us with any non-confidential info as the project advances.
I would like for my next vehicle to get an average of 30+MPG with V6 or equivalent power. Right now I have a V6 and get 24-25MPG (22 in winter) in mostly suburban driving with 27-28 possible on the highway at 70+MPH. The revised EPA estimates for my car are 17/24 so I'm beating that handily even though I do lead foot it on occasion.
Additionally, I don't know anyone who would buy a 'commute car' with a sub-100 mile range. Few people can afford to buy (+ park, maintain, & insure) one car for commuting & another for trips. A decent range of 200+ miles is a must and even that's a big drop from the 340+ miles most cars can get on a tank nowadays. As I've mentioned before, I live in the Chicago suburbs. If I drive to downtown Chicago & back I'm looking at a 90 or so mile round trip. And there are plenty of 'burbs further from the city than I am. A vehicle with limited range is marginal for that kind of trip. (To those who say to take mass transit, it doesn't really work for me. It takes a lot longer & costs about the same)
Considering my car is a 1999 model, enough time has passed for efficiency improvements to drive up mileage capabilities. Unfortunately the reviews I read basically say that while new V6 vehicles have 40-60 more HP than my car, their fuel efficiency has barely budged. Sure it's a good thing that we can get the same mileage with additional power but I, and I imagine a lot of others, would rather see a balance towards slightly better power and a reduced bill at the pump.
I honestly don't know much of anything about the Volt or GM's E-Flex initiative. I'd appreciate it if you can update us with any non-confidential info as the project advances.
I would like for my next vehicle to get an average of 30+MPG with V6 or equivalent power. Right now I have a V6 and get 24-25MPG (22 in winter) in mostly suburban driving with 27-28 possible on the highway at 70+MPH. The revised EPA estimates for my car are 17/24 so I'm beating that handily even though I do lead foot it on occasion.
Additionally, I don't know anyone who would buy a 'commute car' with a sub-100 mile range. Few people can afford to buy (+ park, maintain, & insure) one car for commuting & another for trips. A decent range of 200+ miles is a must and even that's a big drop from the 340+ miles most cars can get on a tank nowadays. As I've mentioned before, I live in the Chicago suburbs. If I drive to downtown Chicago & back I'm looking at a 90 or so mile round trip. And there are plenty of 'burbs further from the city than I am. A vehicle with limited range is marginal for that kind of trip. (To those who say to take mass transit, it doesn't really work for me. It takes a lot longer & costs about the same)
Considering my car is a 1999 model, enough time has passed for efficiency improvements to drive up mileage capabilities. Unfortunately the reviews I read basically say that while new V6 vehicles have 40-60 more HP than my car, their fuel efficiency has barely budged. Sure it's a good thing that we can get the same mileage with additional power but I, and I imagine a lot of others, would rather see a balance towards slightly better power and a reduced bill at the pump.
Pradeep
Storage? I am Storage!
The Volt could have a variant that has a range of nearly 1000 miles, if I'm travelling that far I will fly and rent a car:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/01/07/detroit-auto-show-general-motors-e-flex-platform/
Even if it comes in at 60% of that range, it's still more than almost all vehicles on the road.
It's very exciting stuff, plug it in overnight, just drive as you usually do. If it runs out of battery power it has a constant speed 1L 3 cylinder eng running on petrol, ethanol or biodiesel. You don't have to worry about running out of electric so to speak.
I look forward to a natural gas version. Plug it into a home compressor overnight, like the Civic GX $ "per gallon" is half the price per mile as using gasoline.
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/01/07/detroit-auto-show-general-motors-e-flex-platform/
Even if it comes in at 60% of that range, it's still more than almost all vehicles on the road.
It's very exciting stuff, plug it in overnight, just drive as you usually do. If it runs out of battery power it has a constant speed 1L 3 cylinder eng running on petrol, ethanol or biodiesel. You don't have to worry about running out of electric so to speak.
I look forward to a natural gas version. Plug it into a home compressor overnight, like the Civic GX $ "per gallon" is half the price per mile as using gasoline.
timwhit
Hairy Aussie
The only problem with that is if you run out of fuel while on the road. Unless gas stations started offering natural gas fill-ups.
Another problem is that this type of car seems limited to those with a house, or some type of localized place to plug it in (most apartments that I've seen do not have a way to get electricity to the car). Otherwise I'd be driving a car like that entirely off of the fuel source which makes it somewhat pointless. Regardless, I still think this is a good idea in the right direction.
Pradeep
Storage? I am Storage!
Sure. But given I can fill up every night when the car is garaged (with both natural gas and electric), there's no reason to let the natural gas tank drop low enough to get stranded. The longest drive I do is perhaps 300 miles, and that's a very rare trip. For my commute to work, I only need 70 miles, there and back. I could run on electric for most of the morning ride, and have the natural gas for the way home. I could almost get two weeks of driving, without even hooking up in the garage.
Pradeep
Storage? I am Storage!
http://afdcmap2.nrel.gov/locator/findpane.asp
You can see the availability of natural gas locations (some aren't open to the general public).
You can see the availability of natural gas locations (some aren't open to the general public).
timwhit
Hairy Aussie
Good point, I live in a condo high-rise, so I would have no option to plug into any kind of fuel source or electricity. Though, I don't drive to work and I barely drive other than that anyways.
I find my bike is the most efficient form of transportation in the city. I have been riding to work a few days a week and I can get to and from work just about as fast as a car, faster if traffic heavy, and faster than public transportation for $0 per day. Plus, I get a decent workout.
Howell
Storage? I am Storage!
If the demand was there the parking garage would install a fill-up station of their own. This would be much easier to push through with a condo association involved.
Don't forget the possibility for E85 and fuel cell powered versions. FL and CA are developing Hydrogen infrastructure to some degree, I believe. There's some info at the E-Flex link in my sig. I think there is a good portion of the population who have a < 40 round trip commute to work. This is a great vehicle for them.
ddrueding
Fixture
I'm still stoked about hydrogen. According to Pradeep's link above, there are already 9 locations in the Bay Area.
Will Rickards
Storage Is My Life
< 40 round trip commute describes my current commute. I think it is 9 miles each way. When are we going to see it though? My 1999 saturn still serves me pretty well. But having the off the mark acceleration of an electric... it might be too dangerous in my hands.
Bozo
Storage? I am Storage!
I was thinking diesel as they are much more efficient than gas motors. And, diesels can run on natural gas/propane too.
Bozo :joker:
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
My commute to my day job is 8.6 miles to the usual location, or 4.1 miles to one remote lab, or 160 feet to another remote lab... or 44 miles to the fourth one. When I am out doing contract work I might spend six hours in my car just driving around.
I played Wii Boxing for about two hours Sunday night, and now my arms are pretty sore. Which, I guess is mission accomplished.
I played Wii Boxing for about two hours Sunday night, and now my arms are pretty sore. Which, I guess is mission accomplished.
I've cut down my commute drastically now from 40 miles each way to 8.6. So now I'm going from roughly 1600 miles per month to 360. Even with my shorter commute, a nice electric car would be good, but like I said, I have no where to plug it in. Based on some rough math for gas, I was buying about $177/month and should now be buying roughly $40/month (at an average of 27 mpg).
Out of all the games on that disc, I think the boxing is my least favorite. Check out Mario Party 8 or Wario Ware Smooth Moves for more games with creative uses of the controls.
Fushigi
Storage Is My Life
OK, so I've read the Wiki & Chevy pages on the Volt and it does sound promising. My commute is about 46 miles round trip so I'd still burn a little fuel but not much. I like the architecture; it makes a lot of sense to be a pure electric with a pluggable (gas/diesel/fuel cell) extension capability. I am curious about comparing the cost of electricity v. traditional gas. Also curious about how much amperage it'd draw when plugged in.
I'd trade a little of that 600+ mile range, i.e. maybe three gallons of the fuel tank, for a larger battery pack to extend the electric-only range to about 60 miles. I think people would still be happy with a 500 mile cruising range and 60 or so miles on electric-only.
From the pics it looks like rear seat headroom would be minimal. Also doesn't seem like trunk space would be generous. Both of those factors could limit adoption of the vehicle as a taxi, which is too bad as taxis do a lot of short trips and greatly benefit from hybrid & electric tech. A recent Chicago Tribune article highlighted the first hybrid (Prius) taxi in Chicago and noted how the typical fleet of Crown Vics averages around 9 MPG in the city when used as taxis.
I'd trade a little of that 600+ mile range, i.e. maybe three gallons of the fuel tank, for a larger battery pack to extend the electric-only range to about 60 miles. I think people would still be happy with a 500 mile cruising range and 60 or so miles on electric-only.
From the pics it looks like rear seat headroom would be minimal. Also doesn't seem like trunk space would be generous. Both of those factors could limit adoption of the vehicle as a taxi, which is too bad as taxis do a lot of short trips and greatly benefit from hybrid & electric tech. A recent Chicago Tribune article highlighted the first hybrid (Prius) taxi in Chicago and noted how the typical fleet of Crown Vics averages around 9 MPG in the city when used as taxis.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
I don't particularly care for console games and their goofy, non-standard control systems. I bought Monster Rampage - I love the 25-year-old arcade game, but I'm really looking for things that require a lot of activity. I'll probably by Wii Fit when it comes out. The other titles available for Wii are massively unappealing to me.
I believe the vehicle will charge in about 6.5 hours when plugged into a standard 20A outlet. I think it would make good sense to dedicate a circuit in the garage to E-Flex charging but if only a 15A circuit is available it would probably take proportionatley longer to charge (a little over 8 hours, I guess). I don't know any more detail that that (some info is available on the web somewhere but nothing specific).
One interesting stat is that, even if you are in range extended mode (i.e. the engine is running to provide electric power) you still get ~150mpg (according to the info. available online).
Based on what I'm hearing in the news, we should have powertrain development mules running around somewhere in the late fall early spring timeframe.
I believe it's a hatchback by the way. So that gives it a little more cargo volume/flexibility.
One interesting stat is that, even if you are in range extended mode (i.e. the engine is running to provide electric power) you still get ~150mpg (according to the info. available online).
Based on what I'm hearing in the news, we should have powertrain development mules running around somewhere in the late fall early spring timeframe.
I believe it's a hatchback by the way. So that gives it a little more cargo volume/flexibility.
timwhit
Hairy Aussie
That is appealing...if true, it's way better than the current hybrids. Depending on how much the vehicle weighs, the spec'd 120 kW (160 horsepower) motors sound like some decent power. Is the engine capable of delivering enough power to sustain the care under full load while driving (I assume)? Or will the care be at a reduced load when the batteries are drained?
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
It's supposed to be good for 500 - 600 calories an hour and a nicely elevated heart rate.
ddrueding
Fixture
Sounds good Merc. I haven't tried the Wii (or any consoles since the Nintendo), but these motion controllers do sound very interesting.
I fauil to see A substANTIAL economic vaoue. If the car has such a limtied electronic battery rabnge and the dirvers only 40 miles per day, many would not incur the fules costs to justifiy the extra cost of the vehicel. then a power conduit must be run outsiede to provide AC outlets for cgharge the car. eLectricitiy is expensive too, epsecially in some areneas. hOW LONG DO BATTERIES LOAST? aRE THEY LEAD CELL TYUPES OR SOMEThing mroe advanced?
That is OK Unless the wwii causes the RIS, damagegates the tendons, joints, nervs etceteras.
Well I guess I expected a little too much then.
How /bout I just post the link, you (mis)interpret as you like, comment about the link as you like, ask me quick questions about why I posted the link...and about a dozen or so short-mindless posts later, I'll just re-post my original post, which will then make much better sense to you (fingers crossed)
So here's the link again, (it means you are to listen, pay as much attention as you can...I started to gag about 2 minutes into it,,,wasn't exactly timing it though, could have been shorter, could have been longer, so did not watch the whole segement, have no idea how long these silly young women were going on with their 'giddiness'....err, you do understand 'giddness', can I at least get a confirmation on that part?), you watch it, then you comment.
I still dont understnad, but never minsd. There are some cultural differnced between us.
timwhit
Hairy Aussie
The volt might be a step in the right direction, but I would rather just buy a pure electric car, if I was actually in the market. With the right type of batteries an EV should be able to go 200+ miles before needing to be recharged. This seems optimum for most trips. Though, I rarely drive a car or even ride in one unless I am going out of state. Anyone want to buy a 2003 Nissan Sentra Spec-V? Back on topic:
The questions about what it would take to charge the Volt can be answered here.
Those electricity rates seem low. Based on the electric bill I received today and I pay about 10.5 cents per KW in Chicago, during the summer, my winter rates are lower as I heat with electricity, so I get a break. So, that would be about $1.69 to charge the car. Plus, you are really charging it double of what the electric range is (40 miles), if the above linked site is correct. For some reason the generator kicks in when the battery is down to 50%. Most likely in case you need to floor the car for about 2 minutes straight. Anyway you look at this it is cheaper than a gallon of gas. It works out to ~84 cents for 40 miles of travel.
A concept I was just thinking about would be a car similar to the volt, but with about 3-4 times the electric range. This might not be entirely possible with today's battery technology for less than $50k. But, then give the option of adding the generator if someone thinks they need it for a couple grand over the regular price of the car. Just like if I upgrade to a larger engine or some other option on a car that's available today.
The questions about what it would take to charge the Volt can be answered here.
Those electricity rates seem low. Based on the electric bill I received today and I pay about 10.5 cents per KW in Chicago, during the summer, my winter rates are lower as I heat with electricity, so I get a break. So, that would be about $1.69 to charge the car. Plus, you are really charging it double of what the electric range is (40 miles), if the above linked site is correct. For some reason the generator kicks in when the battery is down to 50%. Most likely in case you need to floor the car for about 2 minutes straight. Anyway you look at this it is cheaper than a gallon of gas. It works out to ~84 cents for 40 miles of travel.
A concept I was just thinking about would be a car similar to the volt, but with about 3-4 times the electric range. This might not be entirely possible with today's battery technology for less than $50k. But, then give the option of adding the generator if someone thinks they need it for a couple grand over the regular price of the car. Just like if I upgrade to a larger engine or some other option on a car that's available today.
ddrueding
Fixture
I'm looking for the following:
USMLE step 1 pathology and microbiology slides
If anyone knows what they are and how to get them, I would be grateful. If you don't know, don't bother finding out; it is very boring.
USMLE step 1 pathology and microbiology slides
If anyone knows what they are and how to get them, I would be grateful. If you don't know, don't bother finding out; it is very boring.
jtr1962
Storage? I am Storage!
I'll second that, especially with $10 gas in the not too distant future, and the hydrogen economy a big if (IMHO hydrogen fuel cells will never be practical in cars). An ICE or fuel cell just adds needless complexity, and takes up weight which could otherwise be used for a larger battery. 200 miles should be possible with today's batteries. Moreover, now that we have batteries capable of recharging in a few minutes the whole range issue is moot. If the cars were made, recharging stations would pop up to service them. Putting in a quick recharge station is much easier than a gasoline station. You basically just need a 480VAC, 3-phase service to provide the needed power (~300 to 500 kW). Additionally, manufacture of pure electrics would spur development of improved batteries far faster than E-flex.
Anyways, congrats Clocker on your new assignment! With the Volt at least GM is finally moving in the right direction. Let's hope they stick to their guns this time. The original EV1 was a really great car given the technology of the time. Had GM kept at it, by now we would all be driving far better second or third generation EVs.
Fushigi
Storage Is My Life
First, there's no documented source that says gas absolutely will hit $10 a gallon let alone a time line for it to happen. Any statements to that affect are speculation or FUD. It could happen, but it might not. It could take decades and be part of natural price rises over time (bread used to cost a nickel; now we're close to $3 a loaf). Or not. Not even OPEC (which is an Arabic acronym meaning "We Have Them By The Balls") can say for sure.
Second, a 200 mile range is not enough. To be a suitable replacement for an existing ICE vehicle it must have comparable or greater range. Few vehicles have a range of less than 300 miles and 350-400 is common. The TCH - a future competitor of the Volt - has an operating range of 585 miles.
Third, the idea of an electric motor with some sort of extender is very good. Right now they're saying the extender would be some form of an ICE but there's no reason why it couldn't be a quick-charging battery pack instead. It's modular; anything that fits the space allotment could be added.
Fourth, do you realize how much the existing electric infrastructure would have to be upgraded to support the widespread roll out of and capacity for 480V 3-phase power? California has rolling blackouts already; how will they find the power to charge thousands of these vehicles throughout the day? The power grid is fragile and from where I'm at I don't see Exelon and the other utilities investing in many infrastructure upgrades. Not to mention we as a society have an aversion to building power plants. Between the "required" utilities (power, water, and sewer) power is the only one with both stability & capacity problems. And people who could do so would want to charge up at their homes overnight (why go to a service station at all?). Do you know of any residences with 3-phase 480V power or will people have to buy inverter/converters? I've got 200 amp service and my AC unit uses a pair of 20 or 30 amp breakers, but it's still single-phase.
Anyway, IMO something like the Volt will spur demand for pure EVs. When people see their gas consumption at zero for portions of their trip they'll naturally start pushing the auto makers for vehicles with longer electric-only runtimes. So maybe a Phase II Volt would still use an ice but take away 2/3 of the gas tank leaving some for ICE/extension but adding a couple of cubic feet for additional batteries. A Phase III unit could be a pure EV with improve batteries (longer range, faster recharge).
The good thing for GM is that the market is ready for vehicles like this. Hybrids have by and large been accepted by the public. A hybrid EV like the Volt should do well. The main thing I hope GM can do is put together a vehicle that can live up to the hype & promise. As someone who doesn't generally look at the "domestic" brands when buying even I'd consider one if it lives up to the promises.
Second, a 200 mile range is not enough. To be a suitable replacement for an existing ICE vehicle it must have comparable or greater range. Few vehicles have a range of less than 300 miles and 350-400 is common. The TCH - a future competitor of the Volt - has an operating range of 585 miles.
Third, the idea of an electric motor with some sort of extender is very good. Right now they're saying the extender would be some form of an ICE but there's no reason why it couldn't be a quick-charging battery pack instead. It's modular; anything that fits the space allotment could be added.
Fourth, do you realize how much the existing electric infrastructure would have to be upgraded to support the widespread roll out of and capacity for 480V 3-phase power? California has rolling blackouts already; how will they find the power to charge thousands of these vehicles throughout the day? The power grid is fragile and from where I'm at I don't see Exelon and the other utilities investing in many infrastructure upgrades. Not to mention we as a society have an aversion to building power plants. Between the "required" utilities (power, water, and sewer) power is the only one with both stability & capacity problems. And people who could do so would want to charge up at their homes overnight (why go to a service station at all?). Do you know of any residences with 3-phase 480V power or will people have to buy inverter/converters? I've got 200 amp service and my AC unit uses a pair of 20 or 30 amp breakers, but it's still single-phase.
Anyway, IMO something like the Volt will spur demand for pure EVs. When people see their gas consumption at zero for portions of their trip they'll naturally start pushing the auto makers for vehicles with longer electric-only runtimes. So maybe a Phase II Volt would still use an ice but take away 2/3 of the gas tank leaving some for ICE/extension but adding a couple of cubic feet for additional batteries. A Phase III unit could be a pure EV with improve batteries (longer range, faster recharge).
The good thing for GM is that the market is ready for vehicles like this. Hybrids have by and large been accepted by the public. A hybrid EV like the Volt should do well. The main thing I hope GM can do is put together a vehicle that can live up to the hype & promise. As someone who doesn't generally look at the "domestic" brands when buying even I'd consider one if it lives up to the promises.
timwhit
Hairy Aussie
I believe you would only need 3-phase 480v power to do a quick charge. If you were charging the vehicle overnight a weaker power source would work fine as long as you had enough time in-between trips.
timwhit
Hairy Aussie
I'm not so sure that bread is a good example. Bread is made from wheat and we can always grow more wheat (or other grain), whereas petroleum has a limited supply. Many countries have already hit their peak production (US in ~1972). As reserves are further tapped and it costs more money to drill for harder to reach reserves prices will go up. I would bet that the price of gasoline will reach $10/gallon in the next decade. Though, I could be wrong. Things that can mitigate the price increase would be increased reliance on other fuel sources, like oil shale converted to liquid fuel, hydrogen fuel cells (doubtful, how will you fuel them?), natural gas, or EVs. Nuclear power plants take a long time to build and are very expensive, but building more could free up natural gas for transportation.
When I think about this stuff I get depressed, I think I will stop now.
jtr1962
Storage? I am Storage!
5 minute recharge is what makes the whole range issue moot. I might understand a 200 mile range being a problem if a vehicle takes overnight to recharge, but if it can be charged as quickly as filling a gas tank then there is no problem. Also, 99% of trips are under 40 miles. A 200 mile range actually covers most of the trips people are likely to take. Even if some ICEs have ranges of 500 or 600 miles, the majority of people will not drive that long without stopping. Even assuming that quick recharge wasn't a possibility, what would be the problem with just renting a longer range ICE vehicle for those few long trips a year, and having a 200-mile range EV for your daily driving? Just a hypothetical question. After all, you don't have a moving van just in case you'll move. A big problem is too many of today's vehicles try to do too many things while doing none of them particularly well. I'm not sure car is really that great of a way to travel hundreds of miles anyway. It's crowded, slow, just generally unpleasant. Unfortunately, since the US currently lacks a decent high-speed rail system, car is about the only way to go distances for the time being.
Homes won't need 3-phase power because there will be no need for quick recharge. Overnight home charging is probably the best way to charge these vehicles up most of the time. Quick recharge using 3-phase power at service stations only comes into play if you'll be bumping up against the range issue in the course of a long trip. Like I said, this is only a very small percentage of trips. As for the grid being able to handle all these EVs, whether through home recharge or otherwise, consider that the biggest user of electrical power is refineries. Use that power to recharge EVs instead, and you'll actually be ahead. Use that power for a system of electric railways, and you'll be even further ahead. Of course, trying to get more public transit funded is always an uphill battle, but that's the real answer here.
Agreed. And the range of pure EVs could be made higher if only we would let design engineers instead of stylists dictate the shape of the vehicle. If we continue to insist on making boxes, EVs will have a much harder time getting decent range.
I think the public is practically begging for vehicles which use anything other than gasoline. Not just to save money, but also to rub it in the face of OPEC. I've never owned a car in my life. Frankly, the main reason besides not being able to afford one is that I can't buy a pure EV. I wonder what percentage of potential car owners feel likewise. I tend to think there's a huge untapped market. This is especially true in cities where even the smallest compact car might simply just be more than is needed. I'm thinking something a little bigger than a motorcycle here, perhaps with three wheels. Pure electric of course. Range of 100 miles is fine, more would be better but not needed. Top speed only needs to be perhaps 80 mph since this would be primarily an urban vehicle. Sure, this would be new territory for a company like GM, but I feel vehicles like this are an integral part of a future where cars are mainly shuttles to railway stations/grocery getters.
ddrueding
Fixture
JTR,
This discussion highlights why public transportation is a waste of time. As has been brought out, "the people" will not accept any compromise from what they are used to, regardless of the other benefits. They won't accept a vehicle with shorter range, lower speed, longer refilling times, or any less convenience than what they have now. Whatever it is that replaces cars will still be:
a) personal property
b) user-controlled space
c) direct transport (no changing methods mid-trip)
d) isolation from others
Those would be difficult enough, but I know I wouldn't compromise on them. Don't forget what some people also do with their cars:
e) status symbol
f) racing?
The argument of "people will change" or "it should be different" doesn't play here; we know that they won't.
So, figure out a system that can manage to maintain these advantages, and you might have something feasible.
This discussion highlights why public transportation is a waste of time. As has been brought out, "the people" will not accept any compromise from what they are used to, regardless of the other benefits. They won't accept a vehicle with shorter range, lower speed, longer refilling times, or any less convenience than what they have now. Whatever it is that replaces cars will still be:
a) personal property
b) user-controlled space
c) direct transport (no changing methods mid-trip)
d) isolation from others
Those would be difficult enough, but I know I wouldn't compromise on them. Don't forget what some people also do with their cars:
e) status symbol
f) racing?
The argument of "people will change" or "it should be different" doesn't play here; we know that they won't.
So, figure out a system that can manage to maintain these advantages, and you might have something feasible.
Fushigi
Storage Is My Life
On this day in 1998, ICANN was formed. In 1984, Joe Kittinger completed the first solo balloon crossing of the Atlantic. In 1977, Voyager I took the first space photograph of the Earth & Moon together. In 1959, Vanguard 3 launched into Earth orbit. In 1927, Columbia Broadcasting System went on the air. And in 1830, a horse beat the first U.S.-made locomotive in a race near Baltimore. Happy Birthday Jada Pinkett Smith and Lance Armstrong (1971), Aisha Tyler (1970), Holly Robinson Peete (1964), James Gandolfini (1961), Fred Willard and Frankie Avalon (1939), Jack Warden (1920) and Greta Garbo (1905). RIP Jimi Hendrix (d. 1970) and Frank Morgan (1949).
"Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity."
- Hanlon's Razor
"Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity."
- Hanlon's Razor
jtr1962
Storage? I am Storage!
People can be incented to do just about anything. Let's not forget that public transportation works in places where it's fairly comprehensive. And people will gladly give up their cars in exchange for speed. The popularity of air travel and high-speed rail (where it exists) shows this to be true. Consider that right now most of the Interstate highway system is 50+ years old, and in dire need of expensive repair. For what these repairs will cost it will be more cost effective to just lay down high-speed railways. Travel time will be reduced by a factor of two to three, while number of deaths will drop to zero. I'm not saying there won't continue to be a need for cars, or that people won't continue to own them. I'm simply saying that long distance travel via car will likely decrease drastically in the future, and car design will need to reflect this reality.
History has already shown that you can't build your way out of congestion. In many places there is even a growing movement to have existing highways dismantled due to pollution/congestion/land use. I think the era of long-distance car travel is coming to an end. It never made much sense anyway given faster, more comfortable alternatives like high-speed rail. In time it may not even be possible to drive between cities as the roads will no longer exist. Besides lacking the money to maintain the current network of roads in low-density areas, we sorely lack the manpower. Remember the bridge collapse a few months ago? That's a harbinger of things to come as our infrastructure continues to decay. I'm guessing we'll probably abandon much of suburbia in the coming years due to a combination of high energy costs plus inability to cost-effectively maintain the transportation grid. The "citi-car", plus a combination of subways, commuter, and high-speed rail, with a lot more bicycle, are the future. I'm not the first one to say this, either.
ddrueding
Fixture
You aren't the first, and won't be the last, but it doesn't make you correct.
Let's divide the population into groups. The first group believes that public transportation as it is in NYC is a good idea. They use it regularly, and feel good about helping the environment. The next group are people that like the idea, but need it to be more convenient, cleaner, closer to where they live, etc. The third group are the ones that like their cars. They like sitting in their safe, clean, climate controlled cocoons, not having to put up with other people's shit.
Then of course, there is everyone who doesn't live in NYC. Or any city with that kind of density for that matter.
Eh, gotta run...more on this later
Let's divide the population into groups. The first group believes that public transportation as it is in NYC is a good idea. They use it regularly, and feel good about helping the environment. The next group are people that like the idea, but need it to be more convenient, cleaner, closer to where they live, etc. The third group are the ones that like their cars. They like sitting in their safe, clean, climate controlled cocoons, not having to put up with other people's shit.
Then of course, there is everyone who doesn't live in NYC. Or any city with that kind of density for that matter.
Eh, gotta run...more on this later