SSDs - State of the Product?

Santilli

Hairy Aussie
Joined
Jan 27, 2002
Messages
5,278
I went through an article about SSD's here

http://benchmarkreviews.com/index.p...k=view&id=270&Itemid=38&limit=1&limitstart=11

"...but EVEREST Disk Benchmark will become the primary indicator. This makes our Solid State Drive product reviews seem very limited, but at least they will be reporting reliable performance results. I hope you have enjoyed my article, and appreciate my efforts. This has been a humbling experience for me, in light of the many products I have tested up to this point."

David and company: If you have time, could you download this utility and run it?

Thanks

GS
 

Santilli

Hairy Aussie
Joined
Jan 27, 2002
Messages
5,278
Here is mine:
Enterprisetestraid0.jpg
 

Santilli

Hairy Aussie
Joined
Jan 27, 2002
Messages
5,278
I guess what I'm getting at is after checking these benchmarks, here is what I come up with.

Access time is .02 ms for a SSD. For mine it's 6.0 ms.

So, 29 times faster.

From the tests on that website, the highest sustained read is 144 mb/sec.

Seems like not a bunch different.

Take the raid cards out of booting, and the other stuff on my server mobo, and, I suspect this 2003 Web install would in about 20 seconds.

Seems like a bit of time to wait for a better product...
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
22,275
Location
I am omnipresent
STR is not normally a huge part of a typical user's workload. It makes a difference on OS load and for starting certain huge applications, but superfast seeks are really the reason to look at fast-spinning disks and SSDs.

That 29x faster seek is a HELL of a lot more important in everyday disk performance than the amount of STR.
 

timwhit

Hairy Aussie
Joined
Jan 23, 2002
Messages
5,278
Location
Chicago, IL
STR is not normally a huge part of a typical user's workload. It makes a difference on OS load and for starting certain huge applications, but superfast seeks are really the reason to look at fast-spinning disks and SSDs.

That 29x faster seek is a HELL of a lot more important in everyday disk performance than the amount of STR.

You and others have said this so many times my head is going to explode.

Greg, just buy a SSD and see for yourself.
 

Santilli

Hairy Aussie
Joined
Jan 27, 2002
Messages
5,278
I agree. The only thing is, I'm not going from a 7200 rpm drive with a 16 ms Random Access time to a SSD.

Sustained through put does have an effect on speed, and, is noticeable, when the numbers are fairly large. I notice a large difference in Seagates 7200's when one is working at 60 mb/sec , and the next one at near 120 mb/sec.

That little velociraptor is no joke either, since it's going near 140 mb/sec, and, the RAT is half the Seagates, pretty much.

If I've got one thing out of reading all these reviews is the memory controllers on these things are not very good, considering the cost.
 

Santilli

Hairy Aussie
Joined
Jan 27, 2002
Messages
5,278
You and others have said this so many times my head is going to explode.

Greg, just buy a SSD and see for yourself.
Guess you missed Sechs review:
sechs
Quote:
Originally Posted by LunarMist View Post

I finally got the Vertex that I ordered and installed Windows on it. It's a lot less impressive than I'd been lead to believe.

It's definitely faster than the 10k SAS drive that it displaced. Windows gets to a useable state much faster, and Photoshop CS4 loads pretty quick. But it's not the whiz-bang wow speeds that a lot of people on the Internet have been reporting.

David is doing well since I'm sure he doesn't save any expense in doing it. SATA 3.0 excellent grade RAID controller, Raid 0 to increase cache, etc.

Mercutio is probably pretty much the same.

Intel seems to be the way to go, but, they are as they always are: ripping the profit on their topend stuff like crazy. I remember looking at Xeons for 1500 dollars, that went 3.06 ghz, vs 250 for 2.8 ghz, and the same Xeons. I'm not so rich, or so employed that wasting that kind of money so the guys at Intel can driver Ferrari's intrests me.

Feel the same way about buying a mac.

What I'm getting is if you are your average computer buff, using a 7200 or 5400 rpm PATA drive, and, you upgrade to a SSD the difference is going to be huge.

If the reviews have made one thing clear, it's that the state of the art chipset stuff, SATA 1.5 chips, controller chips on the SSD's, are not really working all that well, in particular considering the absurd costs of SSD's right now, with the technology at hand.

Why am I going to switch from a perfected technology, SCSI, that will do 320 mb/sec, with about 3.5 ms seeks? With new drives, that would cut the difference to around 15x faster for the SSD's for seeks. Now, the combination of drive cache on Seagate Cheetahs, and the LSI 320-1 megaraid is pretty hard to beat. I'm not taking this lightly.

My checklist is going to be pretty much a motherboard with the Intel chipset that best supports their Intel SSD controllers.
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
22,275
Location
I am omnipresent
Greg, I'm going to tear my hair out.

You were looking at different kinds of Xeons, with different underlying logic even down to the CPU core. EVERYONE in Intel-land went through some amount of "faster then (apparently) slower" when Intel moved from CPUs based on the Pentium 4 architecture to the current Pentium 3-derived Core chips.

Second, the only things I can see a home user doing besides booting their OS where high STR is noticeable is re-encoding DVDs or the very light video editing that home user might do in making a video DVD.

That's it.

Even if you're working with 500MB .RAW files or something, you're going to be vastly better off with the SSD, because relatively speaking, you're going to get more real world performance from that .2ms seek time than ANYTHING ELSE YOU COULD POSSIBLY DO.
 

LunarMist

I can't believe I'm a Fixture
Joined
Feb 1, 2003
Messages
17,497
Location
USA
You and others have said this so many times my head is going to explode.

Greg, just buy a SSD and see for yourself.

I've been saying that for months, but he's not biting. :)
There's no need to waste time on benchmarks. Just buy the X25E and be done with it.
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
22,275
Location
I am omnipresent
Also, Greg:


NO ONE WHO POSTS AT SF - NOT ME, NOT DDRUEDING, NOT LUNARMIST OR HANDRUIN OR TIMWHIT, NEEDS A XEON-BASED SYSTEM AT HOME.


I wouldn't mind having one just because 16-port SATA/SAS cards are much cheaper in PCI-X, but Xeons are for a sort of CPU workload that you as an individual are highly unlikely to be able to produce on your own.

Desktop users tend to have a small number of processes that, if they are CPU intensive, also tend to be task-based (re-encoding a DVD), whereas the intended reason to purchase Xeons is either need for multiprocessing arrangements that exceed that of desktop chips and/or availability of exotic redundancy or I/O technologies such that are supported on Server-type systems but not desktops, such as Registered Memory or Serial Console support.

To put it another way: no desktop user is going to be able to saturate 8 or more CPUs for any meaningful length of time right now. Desktop apps aren't set to do that stuff. Multithreading single apps on Windows in particular kind of falls off a cliff in terms of processing efficiency.

On the other hand, a Xeon system that's running a well-trafficked LAMP (Linux, Apache, MySQL, Perl/PHP/Python) site might have tens or hundreds of small processes to distribute over 8 or 16 CPUs while simultaneously reading and writing to however many disk spindles it takes to keep that CPU fully fed. That Xeon Behemoth isn't just doing one thing until it's done, it has a constant workload of small tasks that's not going away, which is why it NEEDS U320 SCSI, or SAS or a SAN to work the way it does.

In wanting Xeons and SCSI, you're looking at a big old Diesel Mack Truck, and trying to tell us you think it's a Ferrari. What you probably want is something more like a Core i7/920 with an X25E for your OS and critical apps. THAT, Greg, is a Ferrari.
 

P5-133XL

Xmas '97
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
3,173
Location
Salem, Or
Greg, when comparing Xeons with different architectures you need to include more variables than just their clock speeds. You need at least to include how many instructions they can do at the same clock. But there are far more variable than just that. I suggest that you try to compare using standardized benchmark testing (preferably using an application that you personally use and care about).

Next, it is standard practice in the HW business that the R&D for cutting edge is paid for by the newest and greatest and server products are the biggest offenders of this business model. If you really want top line performance then you are going to have to be willing to pay for it both in money and problems (Bugs, compatability, whatever). If you are not, then why waste your time even looking: Just go for mid to low end consumer grade and be happy.

As to SSD's, you are just blowing smoke trying to rationalize that a SCSI raided Cheetah's will even come close to performing what a quality SSD will do. Yes, those Intel SSD's cost a fortune compared to HD's but really considering what you are getting they are a bargain for that performance level. I don't think you comprehend what 15X seek performance really means. Perhaps, if I put it into chip GHz: How much additional would you pay to go from a 2.8 GHz to a 42 GHz Xeon considering that to go from a 1.8 GHz Xeon to a 3.2 GHz Xeon could increase your cost from $200 to $1,600 to double the clock rate?

It feels like people here are arguing with a gamer swearing as to the benefits of on-board graphics and refusing to consider the possibility that a gaming video card isn't worth the money for gaming. If you really care about HD speed, then a quality SSD (with additional consumer drivers for capacity) is the only thing you should be considering. If it isn't that important, then maybe a consumer drive is the proper spot for you. However, it is really hard to recommend the expensive middle ground of multiple Cheetah's + SCSI RAID.
 

P5-133XL

Xmas '97
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
3,173
Location
Salem, Or
Also, Greg:


NO ONE WHO POSTS AT SF - NOT ME, NOT DDRUEDING, NOT LUNARMIST OR HANDRUIN OR TIMWHIT, NEEDS A XEON-BASED SYSTEM AT HOME.


I wouldn't mind having one just because 16-port SATA/SAS cards are much cheaper in PCI-X, but Xeons are for a sort of CPU workload that you as an individual are highly unlikely to be able to produce on your own.

Desktop users tend to have a small number of processes that, if they are CPU intensive, also tend to be task-based (re-encoding a DVD), whereas the intended reason to purchase Xeons is either need for multiprocessing arrangements that exceed that of desktop chips and/or availability of exotic redundancy or I/O technologies such that are supported on Server-type systems but not desktops, such as Registered Memory or Serial Console support.

To put it another way: no desktop user is going to be able to saturate 8 or more CPUs for any meaningful length of time right now. Desktop apps aren't set to do that stuff. Multithreading single apps on Windows in particular kind of falls off a cliff in terms of processing efficiency.

On the other hand, a Xeon system that's running a well-trafficked LAMP (Linux, Apache, MySQL, Perl/PHP/Python) site might have tens or hundreds of small processes to distribute over 8 or 16 CPUs while simultaneously reading and writing to however many disk spindles it takes to keep that CPU fully fed. That Xeon Behemoth isn't just doing one thing until it's done, it has a constant workload of small tasks that's not going away, which is why it NEEDS U320 SCSI, or SAS or a SAN to work the way it does.

In wanting Xeons and SCSI, you're looking at a big old Diesel Mack Truck, and trying to tell us you think it's a Ferrari. What you probably want is something more like a Core i7/920 with an X25E for your OS and critical apps. THAT, Greg, is a Ferrari.

You are absolutely correct here.
 

P5-133XL

Xmas '97
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
3,173
Location
Salem, Or
I personally would like a big Xeon monster for folding (which would keep those CPU's very busy) but I could never ever rationalize such a purchase.
 

P5-133XL

Xmas '97
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
3,173
Location
Salem, Or
No, Playstation 3's are not bad but with what Stanford is testing right now (and I shouldn't be talking about it) is designed for these and much bigger machines. Theoretically, with a big enough machine we are talking 500,000+ points per day. I'd really like to play with those.

Right now if you really want to optimize folding, the way to go is with video cards. You can get motherboards with that can fit 3-4 dual GPU cards and generate 60,000-80,000 points per day. A PS3 will only produce around 900PPD
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
22,275
Location
I am omnipresent
i7 + Gigabyte X58-UD5 + 3x Radeon 4890 x2s = maybe a $2500 computer all in. Other than the insane power consumption that's not as insane as buying something that will do modern Xeons in an SMP configuration + SCSI/SAS drives so you can rip DVDs faster.

:rotfl: <-- Rare deliberate emoticon
 

P5-133XL

Xmas '97
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
3,173
Location
Salem, Or
For a rough estimate, with that config you should be able to get around 34K points per day: For folding you are significantly better off with Nvidia rather than ATI right now. Also Linux is better than Windows but running linux in VM(s) works fine.
 

ddrueding

Fixture
Joined
Feb 4, 2002
Messages
19,729
Location
Horsens, Denmark
NO ONE WHO POSTS AT SF - NOT ME, NOT DDRUEDING, NOT LUNARMIST OR HANDRUIN OR TIMWHIT, NEEDS A XEON-BASED SYSTEM AT HOME.

Just to underscore/highlight this more, I actually bought both. I had both a X58/i7EE and that crazy ASUS dual-proc board with a pair of Xeon 3.06Ghz chips in it. Both were sitting on my desk, both had a RAID-0 of Vertex SSDs in them, and both had an identical build of Windows 7 installed. After fooling around for an afternoon, I took the i7 and sent the 8-core (16 hyperthreaded) monster to the server room to be an ESXi machine. Even when money is no object, even on the more hardcore stuff that I do (rip and encode BluRay, massive RAW conversions, massive panos) the i7 was much quicker most of the time, and not lagging by much the rest of the time. I don't think a regular user could produce a load that would favor the Xeons. Not only are they not worth the additional expense, they are actually slower when money is no object for the things you do.
 

Santilli

Hairy Aussie
Joined
Jan 27, 2002
Messages
5,278
OK:
First off, the dual xeons have been REALLY fast, since when most people where using 30 mb/sec 5400 rpm drives, I was using 2 X 15's in raid 0 for a boot drive.

SSD's represent the first time, in a LONG time, like 12 years, that actual desktop top systems can surpass that setup, or, the SCA box with SCSI drives, done by Supermicro, an LSI 320 controller, and, 5 drives.

Since I use refurbed 15k drives, usually a generation or two behind the current offerings, the cost has not been that high either. Thanks to Gary for the suggestions.

That said, my Shaq version continues to run quickly for what it's used for, and, bumping it up to a RAid 0 of X 25's, if the price ever comes into my arena, will continue to make this setup work for what it's used for.

The athlon, used for HTPC and games is another kettle of fish. I will take all the suggestions to heart on the next build of that machine. (3 x ATI dual cards???? Sam, are you like totally off your meds????????)

Why do lower cards, like 4870 and the 9600 and 9800 rate so high on HTPC machines, for playing DVDS?
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
22,275
Location
I am omnipresent
OK:
First off, the dual xeons have been REALLY fast, since when most people where using 30 mb/sec 5400 rpm drives, I was using 2 X 15's in raid 0 for a boot drive.

Dual Xeons have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with your storage setup.
Given an X25E I could put together an Intel Atom-based system in a PC that's slightly larger than a pack of cigarettes that would smoke your dual Xeons + X15s.

You're conflating CPU performance with storage subsystem performance and the two things have had essentially zero to do with each other since the day Intel de-coupled CPU frequency from motherboard frequency back in the days of the 486DX2.

SSD's represent the first time, in a LONG time, like 12 years, that actual desktop top systems can surpass that setup.

Yes, and you're worried about the cost of a single X25 or OCZ Vertex. Look at how much those X15s cost you in inflation-adjusted dollars, Greg (hint: 2.59% annual inflation over the last 12 years).

That said, my Shaq version continues to run quickly for what it's used for, and, bumping it up to a RAid 0 of X 25's, if the price ever comes into my arena, will continue to make this setup work for what it's used for.

Greg, you don't need RAID0. All RAID0 is doing is increasing the chance that you will lose data. You are not hitting those peak sustained transfer rates often enough to justify the added complexity of that configuration, and you are risking your data by leaving it in a RAID0 array.

Sustained Transfer Rates just are not important for the vast, overwhelming majority of desktop computing tasks. There is a point where we have enough sustained data transfer, and we have essentially reached that point on commodity 7200rpm desktop drives, let along X15s or SSDs. Honest. You can drop it as a criteria at this point.

(3 x ATI dual cards???? Sam, are you like totally off your meds????????)

Not at all. However, you'd end up with a better overall machine than whatever Xeon + SCSI configuration you're rolling over in your mind right now.

That system was suggest to P5 as a dedicated folding machine, though.

Why do lower cards, like 4870 and the 9600 and 9800 rate so high on HTPC machines, for playing DVDS?

Newer "low end" cards have more features for newer kinds of video processing and acceleration of new kinds of video decoding. The 4870 is NOT a low-end card, and the 9800 is essentially the same hardware as the top of the line (of its day) Geforce 8800.

Back in the day we talked about Graphics Accelerator cards, as in, the graphics card wasn't just about 3D performance and texture memory, but the ability to do more useful things like draw 2D GUI primatives (Tseng ET4000), accelerate MPEG1 (S3 Trio64), accelerate MPEG2 (ATI Rage 128) and these days we have cards that do h.264 video, which is useful for Flash movies and for HD content.

There's a big grouping of video cards I won't touch because I don't like the cooling solutions on them. Pretty much everything between things that can be passively cooled and things that need an extra slot for the heat sink is off my personal buy list.
 

Chewy509

Wotty wot wot.
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
3,357
Location
Gold Coast Hinterland, Australia
Dual Xeons have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with your storage setup.
While not directly related, the northbridge/southbridge setup on most Xeon rigs have far more IO bandwidth than typical desktops systems, especially if talking 1 - 2 yrs ago. That certainly made a difference in performance.

However due to widespread introduction of PCIe, even common desktop system have similar IO throughput potential as high-end x86 based servers, (especially when talking about current i7 + X58 based systems). It truly is a time, when the difference between a common dekstop and a common x86 server amounts to the management facility on the mainboard, and not the performance potential of the platform.

While my current (4.5yr old) box is a dual Opteron box**, I know my next box will be single socket most likely based around an i7 CPU w/SSD (with the SSD backed by a conventional 7200rpm drive for mass storage). It should provide roughly 4-5x times the raw CPU performance and about double the Disk IO performance for less than half the power consumption at the wall. (Current setup draws about 450W at the wall under full load, I'm just glad I don't get a lot of time on it).

** I just keep reminding myself, that my current box was setup when if you wanted 64bit and 2 cores in a system, then Alpha, Sun, Itanium and the brand new Opteron were the only options... I'm just glad I got a decent storage system to go with it which as a whole the system has stood the test of time...
 

P5-133XL

Xmas '97
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
3,173
Location
Salem, Or
Greg,

There is nothing wrong with your thinking other than it is now several years out of date. The setup you are describing, at one time, would have been a screamer. Today, there is just plain better technology.

With multi-core technology, you no longer need multiple CPU's to make your machine feel snappy. At one time, it was needed, because having that extra cpu ment if you were doing something there was still a second CPU to deal with the user interface. Now days, there are consumer grade multi-core CPU's that accomplish the same purpose. So you don't need that second processor, i.e. expensive Xeons, to get that snappiness. The point is you no longer need to go server and you can just use the economies of scale to get the performance you seek with relatively low cost.

Unless you have a specific application that does large scale sequential reading/writing then raid-0 does very little for hard drive performance. Then there is the fact that modern drives have much faster sequential reading and writing speeds than a couple of generations ago. The vast majority of storage applications are limited by seek limited and not sequential data transfer limited. It is seek speed that is where real performance gains can be felt and that is where SSD's shine. At one time your your X15's were really the only way to get a top notch storage subsystem. Now they just can't compete with an Intel SSD.

Get a quality MB (one designed for durability) with an 920 i7 processor and an intel X-25 (M or E) SSD (and a large capacity consumer HD for storage capacity) then add a good video card and you really are set for a good long time. If you feel the need for better performance you can get a better CPU but there are diminishing returns for your money. You can also get equivalent Xeons but you will more than quadruple the system cost. Now there is nothing stopping you from using your current investment in your Cheetah's in the new updated machine but the Cheetah's should only be used for additional capacity beyond the size of SSD.

Yes there will be technology improvements and yes, components will get cheaper but I assure you that you have enough performance over-capacity, with that setup, to last several generations and it will be a lot cheaper than Xeons with raided SCSI X15's.

Don't get distracted by Merc's three 4870's. They were simply a side discussion about folding and not relevant to anything you are likely to do (unless you are interested in folding and there has not been any indication of that).
 

Santilli

Hairy Aussie
Joined
Jan 27, 2002
Messages
5,278
I guess the specifics are what cpu usage are you getting with DVD Shrink, DVD Dcripter, NERO 9,
etc.?
while I'm typing this, I'm running about 8% cpu usage, with a DVD playing LOUD, Rolling Stones, What's MY NAME?
 

sechs

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 1, 2003
Messages
4,709
Location
Left Coast
Anyway you can quantify why you think it's not as fast as you were expecting?
Yes. It's faster than any 15k drive that I've used, but it doesn't put them to shame.

Which SAS drive did it replace? Access, random, sequential read speed for the drive it was replacing?
Some couple-generation back 2.5" Fujitsu. If anyone is interested, it's for sale.
 

Santilli

Hairy Aussie
Joined
Jan 27, 2002
Messages
5,278
Yes. It's faster than any 15k drive that I've used, but it doesn't put them to shame.

Some couple-generation back 2.5" Fujitsu. If anyone is interested, it's for sale.

Have you tried a Raid 0 with 15K's and compared that?
 

Handruin

Administrator
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
13,927
Location
USA
All 40 of your posts related to education and Stanford have been moved into it's own thread located here. The quantity of posts was enough to warrant the move.
 

Santilli

Hairy Aussie
Joined
Jan 27, 2002
Messages
5,278
Thank you Doug.

I would also like to apologize to all of you for my posts last night. You have all been wonderful, for a VERY long time, and, I'm sorry I let my personal situation get involved in our discussions.

I thank you all for your tolerance, and love.

God Bless.

GS
 

udaman

Wannabe Storage Freak
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Messages
1,209
The emperors B-day suit is so awesome :p (and check the link in mubs 'post'...no 320GB drives until next year :(, what a sucky announcement!)

http://hothardware.com/News/Intel-Outs-34nm-80GB160GB-X18M--X25M-SSDs/

Intel notes that "while many specs have been improved, we do not expect many noticeable gains on application-based benchmarks; targeted drive benchmarks and tests will show the differences however." In other words, you'll never notice the difference between these 34nm drives and the "older" 50nm drives in everyday use
If you're looking for hard transfer figures, here goes: the new duo can hit a sustained sequential read rate of up to 250MB/sec, while the sustained sequential write rate still tops off at 70MB/sec.
Yeah, and Eugene will just tell you that's a mostly useless ^metric...but for some, Vertex Turbo makes much more sense, particularly the 250GB option.

Checking the specs, idle power consumption on the 34nm drive *increases* slightly, wtf?
 
Top