System build review

[ddrueding]

Looking for a low-powered yet powerful workstation for a corporate environment.

AMD Athlon X2 4850e 2.5GHz Socket AM2 45W Dual-Core - $77
GIGABYTE GA-MA69GM-S2H AM2 AMD 690G HDMI Micro ATX - $69
Kingston 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) - $36
SUPER TALENT FTM30GK25H 2.5" 30GB SATA (SSD) - $149
Antec NSK4480B Black 380W Power Supply - $79
SAMSUNG 22X DVD Burner Black SATA - $25

I'm thinking about putting a PicoPSU in instead, might be more energy efficient?

Thoughts?

 

[P5-133XL]

I'm sorry, but I think you are screwy: An SSD is rediculious in a machine like that as a pure waste of money. Hard drives are not that power hungry and if you must just use a notebook drive.

I also disagree that you should be able to call that a workstation. While the definitation of a workstation may be hard to define, it is always something more powerfull than a standard PC and that just isn't. You have to have at least one thing in there that is high-end to be classified as a workstation like a CAD video card or Dual sockets or something... All I see is a low-end PC, at best ...

I think I would test an under-clocked quad-core to get low power rather than use an X2. Or maybe something with a 50W L5420.

 

[Bozo]

I think I would have used a dual core Celeron for $49.99. Remember, the wattage rating is at full load. 98% of the time they are idling.
The SSD is overkill. Use a laptop SATA.
I believe the power supply that comes with that case is 80% efficiant with Power Factor correction. Don't see what you would gain buying a different power supply.

Bozo :joker:

 

[Bozo]

I just noticed that the PicoPsu uses a proprietary brick power supply. No thanks.

Bozo :joker:

 

[ddrueding]

I just noticed that the PicoPsu uses a proprietary brick power supply. No thanks.

Bozo :joker:

Proprietary? Where did you see that? It will use any 12v supply with a barrel connector, which is 99% of them. I've powered it directly from a car battery, or my car for that matter.

 

[P5-133XL]

If you want something that is really low-power yet high performance. Why not try a mini-itx solution

Psile 10A case
MSI GM965 motherboard
Passive CPU cooler



Then use the upcoming [Aug 2008] quad-core mobile penryn; your pico PS; and your SSD

Or just get yourself a notebook.

 

[ddrueding]

I don't see how changing form-factor decreases power consumption. But it does increase price significantly. The idea is to stick with standard parts, as maintenance of a fleet of these will be an ongoing concern.

 

[Bozo]

Proprietary? Where did you see that? It will use any 12v supply with a barrel connector, which is 99% of them. I've powered it directly from a car battery, or my car for that matter.

I was lookiing at the AC input power connector. It can not use a standard power cord.

Bozo :joker:

 

[P5-133XL]

I don't see how changing form-factor decreases power consumption. But it does increase price significantly. The idea is to stick with standard parts, as maintenance of a fleet of these will be an ongoing concern.

Because MB's use power. More components, means more power usage and the smaller the mb the fewer components which correlates to lower power. Download the users manual and look at the power-usage of that itx MB and then compare it with any atx MB. Also, look at the power usage of the Intel Mobil Penryn -- They currently max out at 25W. I'm not sure what the mobile quad-core is going to be at (because Intel hasn't released that data yet) but it won't be very high.

The whole point, as I understood your primary goal was a high capability, low power. ITX is far lower power with no performance decrease expecially with a mobile processor, than any ATX solution you are going to find. Intel chips are just plain more capable than AMD and lower power. So how low and how much are you willing to pay for it?

Yes, it will increase price; and yes they are less standard parts but still avail parts. If you need to maintain them over a significant time period, buy surplus parts; store them and use them up over time.

 

[P5-133XL]

Just note that there is no less avail for ITX parts than you are going to have with your Pico PS's

 

[ddrueding]

I was lookiing at the AC input power connector. It can not use a standard power cord.

Bozo :joker:

So you are talking about the AC-DC brick? The AC cord that connects to the brick that they offer? Because any 12V AC-DC brick (with sufficient capacity) will work just fine. Any radio shack or online electronics store can provide a replacement.

 

[ddrueding]

The whole point, as I understood your primary goal was a high capability, low power.

I'm sorry, I failed to be specific enough. All my corporate clients are looking for cheap boxes to stick at their employees desks. No-one is really willing to pay more than a cheapo dell. The objective is to demonstrate that cost savings due to better efficiency can be had without a larger initial outlay. I'm predicting a system such as the one above would draw ~50W at idle at the wall. Compared to a similarly fast Dell, that is probably 15-20W lower.

 

[CougTek]

I would use a GigaByte GA-MA74GM-S2 instead because it has the improved SB700 south bridge and the integrated graphic is marginally better. I very much doubt a business box needs HDMI, but the DVI output of the MA74GM-S2 should be useful.

There are many optical drives manufacturers. Why do you have to pick up the worst? LG, NEC and Pioneer drives have been a lot more reliable in my experience than Samsung's.

I second the others regarding the SSD drive. For that price, you can have a 250GB 7200rpm 2.5" mecanical drive that will barely use more electricity than your expensive flash-based storage device.

Also, while not more electrically efficient, the NSK3480 is smaller than the NSK4480B and it only cost 5-6$ more. The employees should appreciate the extra space under their desks.

 

[P5-133XL]

I'm sorry, I failed to be specific enough. All my corporate clients are looking for cheap boxes to stick at their employees desks. No-one is really willing to pay more than a cheapo dell. The objective is to demonstrate that cost savings due to better efficiency can be had without a larger initial outlay. I'm predicting a system such as the one above would draw ~50W at idle at the wall. Compared to a similarly fast Dell, that is probably 15-20W lower.

Where you got me confused is your "Workstation" designation rather than a low-end business PC. I looked at your original system build and it was just plain wrong for a Workstation. I was trying to show you what a very high performance workstation machine that was low power would look like, rather than a low-cost business PC that was also low-power.

 

[ddrueding]

Sorry. To me, workstation simply means that it is part of a larger network. Therefore a large hard drive (or even an optical drive in most cases) aren't needed. If higher-performance is needed, I typically specify what applications are the focus, so specialization can happen.

 

[ddrueding]

I would use a GigaByte GA-MA74GM-S2 instead because it has the improved SB700 south bridge and the integrated graphic is marginally better. I very much doubt a business box needs HDMI, but the DVI output of the MA74GM-S2 should be useful.

There are many optical drives manufacturers. Why do you have to pick up the worst? LG, NEC and Pioneer drives have been a lot more reliable in my experience than Samsung's.

I second the others regarding the SSD drive. For that price, you can have a 250GB 7200rpm 2.5" mecanical drive that will barely use more electricity than your expensive flash-based storage device.

Also, while not more electrically efficient, the NSK3480 is smaller than the NSK4480B and it only cost 5-6$ more. The employees should appreciate the extra space under their desks.

All good points. The optical was simply the cheapest SATA DVD-RW, most will never be used at all. The SSD is offering some performance that even basic users can appreciate (boot time, outlook loading, etc) and the power and noise are second to none. A 2.5" hard drive would bring the power and noise under control, but the performance takes a hit and price goes up a little, too.

 

[P5-133XL]

It may be sacrilege but do you need a local HD? How about an (internally stored) bootable flash-drive with the OS and applications pre-installed with the assumption that virtually all storage would actually occur over the network rather than locally.

Use the saved money for the Pico PS which will save significant power not only because of the absolute 90% efficiency but also because you are in a much more efficient power-range.

Also cheaper cases exist that don't have PS's. I would argue that build-quality is of far lesser importance than cost here: Perhaps one of the many HEC cases for around $35.

 

[P5-133XL]

Since the optical drive will rarely be used - Simply offer it as an optional accessory and price it out of the base model. You can do the same with a HD if necessary.

 

[Mercutio]

The classroom machines I maintain use Intel boards (946GZs) and CPUs (E6300s), Optiarc burners and Samsung or Seagate hard disks, along with smaller NSK3380 cases, but they have been magnificently reliable for me.

Were I building my fleet today I'd probably use 45nm E7200s or the cheaper E2160s, DG31PR motherboards and a 500GB Samsung drive that I would configure largely as space for daily incremental backups.

In a corporate environment I might pay a bit extra to toss a real Intel or 3Com NIC in the box (it might just be me, but network connections seem to initialize faster on dedicated NICs), and I'd probably buy 2GB of RAM as a single DIMM.

I'm talking about a $500 machine that can be built with astonishing uniformity and flexibility, here.

 

[ddrueding]

I've done the CF as a local drive thing. I've even done the PXE boot to network for everything thing. Neither comes close to "fast" for even the most basic applications. I agree that losing the optical is a good idea 90% of the time, but installing them when they are requested costs more in time than putting it in in the first place.

The PicoPSU itself has great efficiency. The inefficiencies come from the AC-DC brick, with them being very inconsistent WRT power usage and heat production. The only good thing is that they are cheap enough to buy more bin the bad ones. If I go that route, getting a cheaper case would be a great idea. Antec makes great cases, but it is the high quality bundled PSU that makes the deal.

 

[ddrueding]

I have a DG31PR board right here, and it is exactly what Intel wants. I do like the Gigabyte boards DVI port. If they go dual-monitor, they still won't have to use VGA.

 

[CougTek]

Why don't you use external slim USB optical drives? Just a few for the entire computer fleet. Plug when necessary.

 

[P5-133XL]

I've done the CF as a local drive thing. I've even done the PXE boot to network for everything thing. Neither comes close to "fast" for even the most basic applications. I agree that losing the optical is a good idea 90% of the time, but installing them when they are requested costs more in time than putting it in in the first place.

The PicoPSU itself has great efficiency. The inefficiencies come from the AC-DC brick, with them being very inconsistent WRT power usage and heat production. The only good thing is that they are cheap enough to buy more bin the bad ones. If I go that route, getting a cheaper case would be a great idea. Antec makes great cases, but it is the high quality bundled PSU that makes the deal.

I will agree that you will lose performance using the flash drive, but you will also gain cost and efficiency. It all depends on the tradeoffs that you are willing to accept. I too really dislike PXE after my first experiance with it, I swore I would never do that again ...

As to the AC-DC power block's inefficiency is an unknown and the pico PS also has an unkown reliability. Depending upon how many machines you intend to produce it may be worthwhile to buy a prototype machine and do some testing with a variety of options. with 50 probably not, but 1000 probably so.

I really don't think it is very costly to do a few one-offs for the "rare" DVD drives. It all depends on the scale of production and the true meaning of the word rare as to the actual cost.

The problem with Merc's suggestion is that the power usage is not that low. There is a problem trying to prove savings through power efficiency with the additional 15W if your goal is to decrease power by 15-20W. I think the performance is better; reliability is way better; up front cost is OK; but power savings is a stretch.

 

[ddrueding]

I've been using PicoPSUs for a couple years now, probably 40 in the field, some of them literally, and most of them are in nasty industrial environments. I have never had a failure of the PicoPSU. The brick has failed, but that is easy to replace and to keep spares.

 

[ddrueding]

What is the math for cost savings per watt per year (assuming 24/7 usage)?

1 watt = 8.67Kwh/year

If 1Kwh=8 cents, than 1 watt of savings = $69.36

That seems damn high, where is my math off?

 

[timwhit]

What is the math for cost savings per watt per year (assuming 24/7 usage)?

1 watt = 8.67Kwh/year

If 1Kwh=8 cents, than 1 watt of savings = $69.36

That seems damn high, where is my math off?

8.67Kwh * .08 = .7008, so less than a dollar a year.

 

[ddrueding]

8.67Kwh * .08 = .7008, so less than a dollar a year.

Thanks. Stupid decimal :eekers:

 

[ddrueding]

So if a watt is 70 cents a year, a 15 watt savings is worth $10.51.

 

[P5-133XL]

What I'd really like to know would be the power savings just between the 380W Antec PS and a Pico PS (With the brick).

The efficiency of a 380W PS should be low at the below 100W range and the Pico should be very high. It would not surprise me if you couldn't gain 10W just there. Further, it just isn't that expensive to replace the Antec Cases with HEC + Pico.

 

[ddrueding]

Well, I have an Intel DG31PR here with a Celeron 1.8Ghz (45W, IIRC). I also happen to have some PicoPSUs sitting around and I'll see if I can dig up an Antec 380W from the parts bin. Combined with some spare RAM and a 2.5" HDD, looks like we have a show

Unfortunatly, I'm leaving for Tahoe tomorrow. So it will have to wait until after my birthday.

 

[jtr1962]

What I'd really like to know would be the power savings just between the 380W Antec PS and a Pico PS (With the brick).

Some decent 12V power bricks can exceed 80% efficiency. The best bet is to get one with fairly high current capability (i.e. over 10 amps). Since it has to be fairly efficient at high currents to keep from melting, that means it uses heftier active elements (MOSFETs, diodes). This will mean it's more efficient at lower currents than a supply with lower maximum current rating.

As for Antec, I doubt it exceeds 75% efficiency at any power level but I could be wrong. Remember that most computer PSUs still have the fan sucking power even when they're not supplying much power. The combination of power brick and Pico PS may well be more efficient in the power range you're looking at. It shouldn't be much worse, and as a bonus it's silent.

BTW, 8¢ per Kw-hr is all you're paying? Usually you have a supplier charge and a delivery charge. Are you sure you're not just looking at the supplier charge? For us the total is over 25¢ per kW-hr.

 

[P5-133XL]

I'm getting 7.2 cents per KWh so 8 cents does not seem unreasonable.

One issue that may matter is that with the removal of the PS, there may be no other way to remove the heat. With many machines, the PS is the only case fan.

The other issue is how does one conviently cover the PS hole? Does anyone make an inexpensive generic metal plate. Does anyone really care about em radation anyway?

 

[sdbardwick]

Antec ships that case with an Earthwatts380 (EA380) PSU; that PSU is 80+ listed, so it should be at least 80% efficient starting at 20% (76 watts) load. The 80+ test results is here (in pdf).

 

[Mercutio]

I have another issue. How the hell is it worth the return on investment to buy and install a $50 mini-PSU in a case that already has a fairly efficient power supply in it?

 

[P5-133XL]

I have another issue. How the hell is it worth the return on investment to buy and install a $50 mini-PSU in a case that already has a fairly efficient power supply in it?

Because the arguement is to replace the Antec case that has a PSU with a HEC without one dropping the price from 85 to 35 which saves $50

 

[Mercutio]

I suspect that savings in line with using a ~15% more efficient PSU can be had by properly configuring S3 suspend on the systems in question. My main issue with the PicoPSU I can see there being an extra labor cost above and beyond just buying a case with an efficient PSU in it, like as an Antec NSK-something.

Granted, configuring S3 suspend has a tiny labor cost associated with it (nothing seems to have it on by default), but you can set that up no matter which way you end up going.

 

[ddrueding]

I just ordered the first (mine) of the new build for testing:

1 x ($69.99) CASE ANTEC|NSK3480 BK/SIL RT - Retail
1 x ($29.99) DVD BURN LITE-ON|iHAS220-08 20X RT - Retail
1 x ($139.99) MS WIN XP PRO SP3 ENG 1PK CD % - OEM
1 x ($189.99) CPU INTEL|C2D E8500 3.16G 775 45N R - Retail
1 x ($114.99) MB INTEL BOXDG45ID 775 G45 RT - Retail
1 x ($65.00) MEM 2Gx2|KST KVR800D2N5K2/4G R - Retail
2 x ($139.99) SSD 32G|RIDATA NSSD-S25-32-C04MPN R - Retail

Total including shipping and tax was just under $1k. I opted for the 3.16Ghz dual-core over the 2.4Ghz quad-core. Not sure if it will be faster for my uses, but it was close enough that the power consumption swung it for me. I don't think the 2 SSDs in RAID-0 will make it to everyone else; likely a single 32G will do.

 

[Mercutio]

You made a huge mistake on those LiteOn drives, but you'll find that out soon. LiteOn's current product is loud and not very good at actually reading discs.

The motherboard is a bit of a stretch as well. Seems like you are overspending on that part for no real benefit.

 

[ddrueding]

You made a huge mistake on those LiteOn drives, but you'll find that out soon. LiteOn's current product is loud and not very good at actually reading discs.

The motherboard is a bit of a stretch as well. Seems like you are overspending on that part for no real benefit.

I read that the case only supports very shallow optical drives. The only ones I could find that matched the dimensions were LiteOn and ASUS. Considering that I know ASUS sucks, that gave me the slim chance to succeed.

I picked that motherboard because I want to standardize the chipset for as long as possible. Starting with the latest seemed the best way to do that. It seems a fairly standard yet feature-rich board, and I suspect it will be still available and cheaper in a year.

 

[Mercutio]

I assure you that other drives fit just fine in that chassis.

As for the motherboard: Intel drives me nuts. I've standardized on the 946GZ for my classroom PCs, but they have been in and out of production three times since I started buying them. Intel will do a production run of them, then they'll run out. They won't be available for three or four months, and then they will. I've paid between $55 and $120 to get them. From moment to moment I'm not exactly sure what Intel is positioning as a business or a home solution (DG-boards are supposed to be "home" products, but they differ from 945/946 products only in tiny, cosmetic ways).

I probably need to read all the crap Intel sends me more closely, but right now my advice is to make your initial choice of Intel motherboard VERY CAREFULLY. They yank the "home" products out of their product line really without any regard to anything.