Timing of building a new system

[ddrueding]

Well, I hope so; I'd be going out on a limb assuming it will. Reviews on Newegg indicate visual quality using these converter cable sis a hit and miss. I need "safe & sure-shot" solutions since experimenting will be costly time and money wise. I'll do some more research.

Thanks for the inputs, time and SD.

Honestly not something to worry about. From what I understand, HDMI has the DVI pinout spec in the cable. There is no tricky conversions or software, just moving pins to the different plug. So long as you intend to run resolutions below 1920x1080 I've done this dozens of times without issue.

 

[Stereodude]

You mean 1920x1200.

 

[ddrueding]

I haven't tried 1920x1200 personally, but you are right that is the top spec.

 

[blakerwry]

Honestly not something to worry about. From what I understand, HDMI has the DVI pinout spec in the cable. There is no tricky conversions or software, just moving pins to the different plug. So long as you intend to run resolutions below 1920x1080 I've done this dozens of times without issue.

Just to confirm... I just setup 5 i5-2400 Dell's with the integrated CPU video. I used a SIIG HDMI to DVI cable to connect to a 1920x1080 LCD. No issues.

I think it was this one. The SIIG cable was of very high quality. Looks like Amazon sells their own branded cable for about half the cost though.

 

[mubs]

Thanks all, that's reassuring to know. So I'll put those motherboards back in the race. I've collected some review data from the 'egg and am using that as the starting point.

Did that with SSDs as well, and the Crucial CT064M4SSD2 64 GB and Intel SSDSA2CW120G3K5 120GB seem the have the best ratings.

Among HDDs, the Samsung EcoGreen F4 (HD204UI) 2TB and the Samsung Spinpoint F3 (HD103SJ) 1TB are rated the best. I'll go with the latter since I'm leery of the higher capacities.

I'm hoping to spend some time this weekend finalizing the MB, RAM and case. Next weekend is a long weekend; I'm off Thursday and Monday (Labor Day). Planning to take Friday off, so that makes it 5 days in a stretch. Should have at least some traction.

Ordered a Brother HL-5350DN printer today. My HP LJ 6L is 12 years old and while print quality is still fine (since it's a combination drum and cartridge when toner is replaced), everything else is worn out. Need networking capability so my daughter can print as well without needing to turn my system on to share it. Decided to go the extra yard and get duplexing too.

This is going to be a wholesale replacement.

 

[mubs]

What's the logic of not having a display connector in the back, or a header for it on the motherboard, of a board that uses the Z68 chipset??? The Asus P8Z68 Deluxe is one such; really nice specs, but no display port.

Somebody that wants to use an add-on graphics card would buy a board with one of the other chipsets. :scratch:

 

[time]

There's never been a need for separate chipsets to support embedded graphics - obviously, you don't use it if you don't need it. But since the advent of Sandy Bridge, it's become particularly pointless because regardless of which motherboard chipset, the IGP is in every single CPU anyway. This didn't stop Intel creating 3 different chipsets (H61, H67, P67), and then a fourth even more pointless one (Q67). There's very little difference between them, except that P67 doesn't allow you to use the CPU's IGP, and I think there may be a slight PCI-e lane difference as well, or is it simply that it doesn't reserve lanes for the IGP? In practical terms, the nature of the IGP support limited overclocking on H61 and H67.

With the second generation, Intel has so far only released an IGP-capable chipset (Z68 ) - I'm not interested enough to know if this signals a change of strategy, but the overclocking limitations are gone.

To be honest, I think you're over-analyzing the differences between available motherboards - your needs appear to be mainstream.

 

[CougTek]

If I was paying a 30% premium on all hardware, I would be over-analysing too.

 

[Bozo]

Not every Intel cpu has video built in. If you plan on using an add on video card, check the specs of the cpu. You can save some money in buying a cpu without the video.
AS an example, on this page you can see which cpu has video and which don't for the DH55TC motherboard.

 

[time]

That's an obsolete socket 1156 motherboard.

Here's the page for the DZ68DB, which is a recent socket 1155 motherboard.

You will see that only the most basic server/workstation CPU does not include IGP and all desktop CPUs have it.

 

[Chewy509]

Here is a list of ALL socket 1155 based CPUs, and as time mentions only some Xeons' don't have it...

http://ark.intel.com/MySearch.aspx?s=t&Sockets=1155

FYI, simply replace the 1155 after sockets with your desired socket pin count (eg 1156, 1366) to get other socket types...

 

[mubs]

Thanks all. CPU will be an i5 2500K, which has HD 3000 graphics.

The shortlist so far:

Case: Antec Nine Hundred Two V3. It's large/small enough, has washable filters, etc. Slightly smaller than my present case.

Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-Z68XP-UD3P or Asus P8Z68-V. The GB has only the HDMI port that makes me nervous, but you all have assured me that's no prob, and it seems to be an excellent board.

At least one Samsung Spinpoint F3 HD103SJ 1TB HDD; Don't know if these are still available here, though. Other drives will come from the present system.

Still need:

RAM: The two motherboards can use speeds of at least 2133; what do you all recommend? I will only auto overclock with air, no water cooling. Starting off with stock cooler; may move to 3rd party later.

Power Supply: I'm thinking 600w should be more than enough. Yet to do research on what's out there.

 

[mubs]

To be honest, I think you're over-analyzing the differences between available motherboards - your needs appear to be mainstream.

The plan is to use onboard graphics to begin with, but I'd like to have the option of sticking in a card if I want to.

My style is to obsess before buying, and once the trigger is pulled, never to look back

 

[CougTek]

Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-Z68XP-UD3P or Asus P8Z68-V. The GB has only the HDMI port that makes me nervous, but you all have assured me that's no prob, and it seems to be an excellent board.

The Asus is a much nicer board. While you don't need it with your case, it has an internal USB 3.0 20 pins connector, which is still relatively rare. It has more fan connectors and more complete backplate I/O ports. It's certainly quite a bit more expensive too, however.

RAM: The two motherboards can use speeds of at least 2133; what do you all recommend? I will only auto overclock with air, no water cooling. Starting off with stock cooler; may move to 3rd party later.

See that review. The short conclusion is that DDR 1600MHz CL9 is probably the sweet spot for price vs performance. Going higher won't bring you much, but will cost you a lot.

Power Supply: I'm thinking 600w should be more than enough. Yet to do research on what's out there.

For the system you describe, a good 350W power suply unit is all you'd need. Don't buy a power supply with a too high power rating, as power supplies are generally the most efficient when they operate at 50% of their maximum rated power output. Your system will probably need ~120-150W at peak and less than 60W at idle. Even if you add a mainstream graphic card, it probably won't need more than 270W-300W on peak loads and less than 100W on idle. Keep that in mind

 

[CougTek]

Nevermind my comment about the GigaByte versus Asus board. I confused the GigaByte for a lower-end model.

 

[time]

I have some reservations about the case, but you may not be able to do much better.

Firstly, I suspect that the single front USB 3.0 port is terminated with a USB 3.0 female 'A' plug that you're supposed to pass through the back and plug into the rear panel. That means you can only use 2 of the 4 USB 3.0 ports provided by the motherboard. The manual doesn't tell me otherwise, but perhaps someone here has seen one in the flesh?

Secondly, the air filter cleaning procedure sounds a bit much for my tastes, given that you're expecting to do this fairly frequently:

Front Air Filters – There is a filter located behind the faceplate of each HDD cage faceplate. Two front air filters come with the case by default.

To clean the filters:
1. Remove the cage thumbscrews fastening the HDD cage to the 5.25” drive bays and set them aside.
2. Slide the HDD cage forward about 1 or 2 inches. You will see the air filter behind the faceplate. Note: There should be no need to disconnect the power or data connections from the HDD or the fan in order to remove the filters for cleaning if you have left about 2 inches of slack in the cables.
3. Lift the tab upwards to remove the filter.

Side Air Filter – There is a filter located in the side fan bracket. It is located on the inside of the side panel, so you must open the side panel to access it. Remove the filter by sliding it out of the bracket.

Thirdly, the most prominent feature of this case is the oversized (200mm) cooling fan in a chimney arrangement at the top of the case. Unfortunately, the first thing I would do in a dusty environment is seal that off.

 

[time]

Also, just a minor point about that Gigabyte motherboard: presumably you're restricted to a single monitor - normally the DVI port can be used for a second display, it's a feature of Sandy Bridge IGP.

Nothing that can't be solved with a graphics card, of course.

 

[Howell]

If the top fan is in a "chimney arraingement" then the fan will be on exhaust and the danger of dust entering the case from the top will be minimal. In dusty environment I personally prefer to have positive case pressure so I can dictate where air will enter the case and filter for dust accordingly.

 

[time]

And when the PC is off or asleep ... ?

Here's a tip: if you really want to minimize dust incursion, don't have fans sucking air into the case. The concentrated negative pressure that creates is just a scaled down vacuum cleaner, i.e. a dust magnet. If you must have intake fans, make them spin as slowly as possible, eg 500 rpm.

Similarly, don't use more than a bare minimum of exhaust fans. Failing that, keep their speed as low as possible - it really doesn't take much airflow to remove CPU heat, as opposed to dual graphics cards, for instance.

 

[ddrueding]

And when the PC is off or asleep ... ?

Here's a tip: if you really want to minimize dust incursion, don't have fans sucking air into the case. The concentrated negative pressure that creates is just a scaled down vacuum cleaner, i.e. a dust magnet. If you must have intake fans, make them spin as slowly as possible, eg 500 rpm.

Similarly, don't use more than a bare minimum of exhaust fans. Failing that, keep their speed as low as possible - it really doesn't take much airflow to remove CPU heat, as opposed to dual graphics cards, for instance.

I'll second all that. The amount of air passing through a case determines the amount of dust in it, and having a powerful intake grabs any nearby dust and pulls it in. Having faster fans in the chassis making sure there are no hot-spots is good, while having just enough airflow through the case to keep within 10 degrees of ambient is plenty.

Of course, if you have a cleaner environment, it is much easier to design a system that draws outside air and sends it right to the hot spots.

 

[mubs]

I have some reservations about the case, but you may not be able to do much better.

Firstly, I suspect that the single front USB 3.0 port is terminated with a USB 3.0 female 'A' plug that you're supposed to pass through the back and plug into the rear panel. That means you can only use 2 of the 4 USB 3.0 ports provided by the motherboard. The manual doesn't tell me otherwise, but perhaps someone here has seen one in the flesh?

Secondly, the air filter cleaning procedure sounds a bit much for my tastes, given that you're expecting to do this fairly frequently:



Thirdly, the most prominent feature of this case is the oversized (200mm) cooling fan in a chimney arrangement at the top of the case. Unfortunately, the first thing I would do in a dusty environment is seal that off.

The problem, time, is nobody except Antec says the filters are washable. They don't even have pics for me to figure it out for myself. Perhaps the only better case from this point of view that meets my needs would be the Antec DF-85; one doesn't have to unscrew anything to remove the filters. I suspect it'll cost me less as well.

As far as the cooling fans go, I'll remove fans I don't need and seal off the openings. It's going to live under my computer table where nobody's going to look at it, and to me, function is more important than form.

 

[mubs]

Also, just a minor point about that Gigabyte motherboard: presumably you're restricted to a single monitor - normally the DVI port can be used for a second display, it's a feature of Sandy Bridge IGP.

Nothing that can't be solved with a graphics card, of course.

I really don't like to be boxed in.... The Asus is much better in this regard, but comes with less features (FW-400, etc.)

 

[mubs]

So the list right now is:

Case: Antec DF-85 or Antec Nine Hundred Two V3

Motherboard: Asus P8Z68-V or Gigabyte GA-Z68XP-UD3P.

CPU: Intel i5 2500k

At least one Samsung Spinpoint F3 HD103SJ 1TB HDD

RAM: G.SKILL Ripjaws X Series F3-12800CL8D-8GBXM 2 x 4GB

Power Supply: Seasonic X Series X650 Gold or Antec BP550 Plus 550

I know Coug said I could do with a smaller supply, but I calculated online and am recommended 536-580 watts. I do plan to have a few drives and may bump up RAM later, and don't want to have to replace it at a later time.

I may decide to put in an SSD: Crucial CT064M4SSD2 64GB

I'd appreciate critique / comments. Thanks.

 

[ddrueding]

Not sure which power supply calculator you used, but with triple the RAM, triple the drives, a decent add-on video card, and massive overclocking you still don't need anything more than a good 380W or any 420W PSU, with your actual draw probably in the <250W range.

 

[Bozo]

Using this calculator, I got less than 300W.

 

[CougTek]

I know Coug said I could do with a smaller supply, but I calculated online and am recommended 536-580 watts

Coug>online calculator

The Seasonic is supposed to be much more expensive than the Antec, but it's also much better in every other way. I would be willing to pay twice as much for it over the Antec. If I had that money, of course.

 

[Mercutio]

As I think I've mentioned before, I run drives with north of a dozen hard drives on 500W PSUs. The only thing I do is stagger spin-up.

 

[mubs]

Here's the calculator I used - the same one as Bozo: http://extreme.outervision.com/psucalculatorlite.jsp

The stuff I eneterd was:
1 physical cpu
Motherboard: high-end desktop
CPU: i5 2500k
CPU utilization: 90%
Overclock my cpu: 4400 MHz, 1.3v
RAM: 2 sticks DDR3
Video card: HD Radeon 6790 (no idea what this is; it's the lowest in the 6 series)
Video type: single card
HDD: 4 x IDE 7200 rpm
Flash SSD: 1 drive
DVD-RW: 1 drive
CD-RW: 1 drive
PCI Card: 1 (FW-400)
PCI-e 1x: 1 card (FW-800)
Fans: 4 x regular 140mm

minimum: 409, recommended 459

My only fear is random problems with an underpowered psu. To the maximum possible extent, this needs to be a build and forget kind of machine.

 

[time]

That calculator still exaggerates in several ways.

For instance, it claims that an IDE drive needs 19W. Speaking of which, Mubs, didn't you mean SATA? The calculator says 10W each for those. I wouldn't be worried about startup current. It's typically 2A, so even without staggering, a dozen drives could never need more than 24A very briefly. At switch on the CPU and any graphics cards are drawing very little and any decent power supply can handle momentary loads anyway.

The estimates for DVD-RW (27W) and CD-RW (21W) drives are over the top by probably a factor of 2 with current examples. BTW, why do you need a separate CD drive?

The estimates for 140mm fans are so far out (9W each) I wonder if it's a bug? Quiet models use less than 2W and a typical 60cfm at 1500rpm is about 2.5W.

I wouldn't call your prospective motherboard "High End", the features are pretty mainstream.

Why do you need to add both a FW-400 and a FW-800 card?

Some links to reassure you:

PSU Wattage

PC Power Consumption: How Many Watts Do We Need?

Debunking Power Supply Myths

Deciphering the numbers on the label

Historically, most power supplies have been over-rated crap that led to companies like AMD recommending double the needed PSU rating. You can avoid all this simply by picking a unit with 80 PLUS certification - independent testing guarantees it will be able to deliver its rated power.

As an example, I have a 5-year old FSP 300W rated for 22A @12V. It weighs nearly 2kg. I also have a brand new iCute 500W that can only claim 18A @12V. It weighs 1.2kg. Think about that.

The FSP's fan is seizing up, so given its age, I replaced it with an Antec Neo Eco 400W. This is an 80 PLUS unit rated for 30A @12V. Tests show it can actually deliver 36A if necessary, which is at least double that of the 500W PSU ...

 

[mubs]

I apologize for disappearing. Between unplanned guests and work and being sick, I couldn't post here.

In deference to the knowledgeable folks, I will go with a Seasonic 80+ Bronze PSU, the S12II 430B. After some research, I decided to buy only 80+ certified PSUs. There is a limited number of models of lower wattage that are rated well. Also here there seems to be a bias towards the higher wattage models.

I will buy these locally:
Antec DF-35 case: $140 (Egg is $100)
i5 2500 K: $243 (Egg is $220)
PSU: $59 (egg is $70 - surprise!)
WD Caviar Black WD1001FALS 1 TB SATA: $102 (Egg is $90)

I will have to source the RAM and SSD from the US (Egg); the brand/model I want is not available here. They are small enough in size that I can impose on someone to bring them for me.

Ram: one of the following
Corsair Vengeance CMZ8GX3M2A1600C9 pack of 2x4GB DDR3 1600 $53
Corsair Vengeance CMZ8GX3M2A1600C8 (XMP) pack of 2x4GB DDR3 1600 $75

SSD: Crucial CT064M4SSD2 64gb, $115.

The big question is the motherboard.
The Asus P8Z68-V is $265 here (best price) as opposed to $165 at the Egg. Not sure what I'm going to do.

Thanks for all the help.

 

[mubs]

This project seems to be jinxed. Vendors here are a peculiar breed. They're reluctant to give quotes, promising to do so but never getting around to it. A couple that did have gone underground and are not responding now. It's like they don't want additional business. Sheesh.

Latest development is the not good news at work. I may be "free" come December. After some large spends recently, it may be prudent to hold off on this project now.

I will probably just install Win 7 on my present machine. Would it be easier to dual boot with Windows XP if I leave XP on the present boot disk as is, and install Win 7 on an SSD all by itself? I would disconnect all other drives before installing Win 7 on the SSD, of course. I would just select the disk to boot from when I needed to boot XP, which would be no more than a couple of times a month.

 

[LunarMist]

This project seems to be jinxed. Vendors here are a peculiar breed. They're reluctant to give quotes, promising to do so but never getting around to it. A couple that did have gone underground and are not responding now. It's like they don't want additional business. Sheesh.

Latest development is the not good news at work. I may be "free" come December. After some large spends recently, it may be prudent to hold off on this project now.

I will probably just install Win 7 on my present machine. Would it be easier to dual boot with Windows XP if I leave XP on the present boot disk as is, and install Win 7 on an SSD all by itself? I would disconnect all other drives before installing Win 7 on the SSD, of course. I would just select the disk to boot from when I needed to boot XP, which would be no more than a couple of times a month.

Sorry to hear of the impending bad news.

Yes, you should keep the drives separate if possible.

 

[Mercutio]

I wouldn't bother dual booting on a home machine. Just install 7. Use XP mode if you need it.

I'm sorry to hear about your upcoming tribulations, mubs.

 

[Mercutio]

I wouldn't bother dual booting on a home machine. Just install 7. Use XP mode if you need it.

I'm sorry to hear about your upcoming tribulations, mubs.

 

[Bozo]

Make sure the XP disk is disconnected before installing Win 7. There are subtle differences in NTFS of Win7 and some dual boot setups don't work. Win7 sees the XP partition and makes changes to the NTFS file system and XP won't boot.

I sure hope you keep your job.

 

[CougTek]

He already wrote that he would disconnect the XP drive when he'll install Win7. XP Mode can only be installed if Windows 7 Pro or Ultimate is installed. It won't be possible to install the XP Mode on the Home Premium version.

 

[BingBangBop]

If you can't install XP mode, just install virtual PC which is free for the download and is what XP mode is based on. It won't interact quite as seamlessly with Windows 7 but is still quite convienant.

 

[mubs]

Thanks all. The company has been struggling (as it has for the last 4 years I've been with them), and right now there's not a lot for me to do. In a way, I worked myself out of a job because of the way I structured and trained my downline; not that I regret it. It is indeed time to move on, but it remains to be seen how that will transpire. My age and "over experience" certainly don't help.

Based on the frustrations I've experienced procuring parts for the now-shelved new PC, perhaps there's a business opportunity to set up a local 'Egg!

 

[ddrueding]

Perhaps just buy from the 'Egg in bulk and resell? Even when I had reseller accounts with many distributors and did $250k/yr+ I couldn't get their pricing on a bunch of stuff.

 

[Howell]

Sorry to hear about the employment troubles mubs. Stay in touch.