Which OS Upgrade for old computer?

Will Rickards

Storage Is My Life
Joined
Jan 23, 2002
Messages
2,012
Location
Here
Website
willrickards.net
So mom's got a Athlon 64 X2 4000+ based Dell E521 with 2GB of RAM that I bought her back in 2007.
As XP support is going away, I'm thinking I should upgrade the OS.

So which MS OS offering should I buy? The windows 8 upgrade seems to be about $95.

I don't have windows 8 on my own computers, just windows 7.
But I don't know if it makes any sense to buy a windows 7 license at this point.
 

ddrueding

Fixture
Joined
Feb 4, 2002
Messages
19,742
Location
Horsens, Denmark
If you are going to stay with that hardware, stay with XP. Just get a 60GB SSD and do a fresh install, maybe some more RAM, it will be fine.
 

sedrosken

Florida Man
Joined
Nov 20, 2013
Messages
1,820
Location
Eglin AFB Area
Website
sedrosken.xyz
I'd go with Windows 7. It's supported until 2020 while regular Windows 8 (not 8.1) is only until 2015. I'm pretty sure Windows 8.1 won't run on it.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
 

jtr1962

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 25, 2002
Messages
4,379
Location
Flushing, New York
I second staying with XP. Lack of OS support really doesn't matter once an OS becomes less popular. Most of the MS updates for XP are security updates. Now that Windows 7 and 8 are more popular hackers will focus on them, not XP.

As for RAM, probably not much point going past 3 GB. XP and any other 32-bit OS will only use half or less of the last GB if you go all the way to 4 GB. Bottom line-get an SSD as Dave suggested, keep XP. When the system finally gets too long in the tooth a few years from now, upgrade the MB/CPU/RAM, and install Windows 7 or 8 on the SSD.
 

Clocker

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 14, 2002
Messages
3,554
Location
USA
My vote would be to go with Win7 if you are getting an SSD...for the TRIM support that Win7 has.

I'm actually taking Vista Basic off my old laptop and you can use that key if you want. Had a very small footprint and fit very well on a 30GB SSD.

It worked fine but I'm upgrading the laptop's RAM, SSD and CPU for a little project and I have an extra key for Win7 I will be using since I moved my desktop to Win8.
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
22,297
Location
I am omnipresent
Now is the time to try SuSE or Mint or something. I don't think you can justify wasting an OS license activation on a machine that old, and you probably just want a Facebook/Youtube/Web Browsing machine anyway.
 

P5-133XL

Xmas '97
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
3,173
Location
Salem, Or
What I note is that there is no consensus. The only thing I wouldn't do is Win8. If your mom is malware-prone then I'd go Win7 or Linux and skip XP. Otherwise XP is just fine as are Win7 and Linux
 

Tannin

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
4,448
Location
Huon Valley, Tasmania
Website
www.redhill.net.au
You will get the best performance with Windows 8 - but MS update support only until 2015.
You can't use Windows 8.1 'coz they screwed the compatibility pooch.
Windows 7 will be fine, not as fast as 8 but at least it has update support to 2020.
XP is perfect provided you are prepared to live without security updates and 3GB RAM is OK.

On that last, they keys will probably be:

1: do not use Internet Explorer. Not for anything! Replace with SeaMonkey, Chrome, whatever.
2: do not use Outlook Express. Replace with Thunderbird or etc.
3: do not use any of the Microsoft image software (Picture & Fax viewer, etc.) - replace with Irfanview, PMView, XNView, whastever you like.
4: use a hardware firewall

Anything I've missed?
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
22,297
Location
I am omnipresent
My rule of thumb is to not even bother to install Antivirus software on any computer old enough that it doesn't have a Windows 7 COA on it, but I do think that using at least Adblock+ and the Spybot immunizations are a pretty big deal, and people also need to give a pass to Acrobat and Java at the very least. IE can't be updated past version 8 and WILL be present on those computers, so there are going to be malware issues no matter what.
 

Tannin

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
4,448
Location
Huon Valley, Tasmania
Website
www.redhill.net.au
Merc, assume that all the IE shortcuts are deleted and the user is either smart enough to know not to go hunting for the .EXE or dumb enough not to know how to. Remember that Windows Update no nonger runs 'coz there are no more updates. Now, where is the IE risk?

(I'm not arguing with you, at least not yet, just asking for an explanation.)

Also, is it worth considering renaming iexplore.exe so that brain-dead hard-wired use-IE-no-matter-what software can't? Strikes me as a cure possibly worse than the disease, but what are your thoughts.
 

ddrueding

Fixture
Joined
Feb 4, 2002
Messages
19,742
Location
Horsens, Denmark
There are a number of programs I've seen lately that launch a browser window at some point and use IE regardless of settings. And at that point, if the "Do you want IE to be your default browser?" question pops up, that machine is hosed.
 

Will Rickards

Storage Is My Life
Joined
Jan 23, 2002
Messages
2,012
Location
Here
Website
willrickards.net
Okay so if I buy a windows 8 license, can I use that for installing windows 7?
Linux is probably a non-starter, too much muscle memory so to speak.
While primary functionality is web browsing and her e-mail is in the cloud, she does do some other stuff with some ms type software.
 

Stereodude

Not really a
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
10,865
Location
Michigan
Okay so if I buy a windows 8 license, can I use that for installing windows 7?
Not necessarily, downgrade rights are fairly convoluted. You would have to start with a Win 8 Pro OEM license and go from there. You can still buy Windows 7, so that's probably a much better place to start.
 

Clocker

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 14, 2002
Messages
3,554
Location
USA
I think you should buy Win8 and use it on one of your newer machines. Take Win7 off your machine and use it on the old computer for your parents.

I just finished activating the purchased OEM copy of Win7 that I bought from Newegg years ago (and had previously installed on my desktop) onto my older laptop. Initially, activation on the laptop was unsuccessful (I had it in two different builds of my desktop over the years). 5 minutes with the Microsoft automated phone system and the laptop was fully activated with my Win7 Pro x64...never even had to talk to a human.

This way you have the older OS on the older computer which probably won't last too long and Win8 on your (likely) newer own computer that you will be using longer.

Of course, if your parents can get comfortable with Linux, that would be a great option too. Not an option here though!
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
22,297
Location
I am omnipresent
This is a great frustration for me. Almost everything people want to do these days relates to online services, particularly for home users. They want their Facebook and Picasa and Spotify. Very few people even burn discs, and for the few people who can't be served by Google Drive's Office replacement, Office 365 runs on absolutely everything that isn't an ipad.

As long as the thing that runs on the desktop has a robust platform for delivering web content (Chrome, Firefox), the underlying OS almost doesn't matter any longer. Since most people can barely manage to make folders or understand the concept of a home directory, it's not like major UI changes are even that big of a deal so long as they can easily open a browser and perhaps a media player.

Given that, why NOT look at Linux?
 

sedrosken

Florida Man
Joined
Nov 20, 2013
Messages
1,820
Location
Eglin AFB Area
Website
sedrosken.xyz
I second this. I'd say try a lighter-weight distro such as Lubuntu, and see if a Windows like UI can't be found (again, Lubuntu is what I'm referencing, though I'm sure XFCE is available for everything else, and it feels much more like Windows than Unity or GNOME.
 

P5-133XL

Xmas '97
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
3,173
Location
Salem, Or
I have lots of spare parts and some time to kill so I just resurrected an old Athlon x64 4600+ that I had retired. It has an GA-K8N51PVM motherboard. The first observation, no drivers for anything other than XP x32 so I have a challenge. Win8 no go. Win7 searched and searched but I could not find a usable chipset, network driver nor audio driver. XP x64 still no network drivers (only x32 XP drivers). I tried installing mint (Linux) but I could not get the machine to boot to a thumb drive and didn't have any blank CDR media anymore (No DVD just a CDRom) to write an image and boot off the CD further the ISO's now exceed the size of a CD:tdown:. I ended up installing an old Intel network card and that worked well enough to make the XP X64 run (Probably Win7 too but that wasn't tried) and with 4GB of ram it seems quite snappy. Hey, one more GTX 460 to fold with...
 

P5-133XL

Xmas '97
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
3,173
Location
Salem, Or
Nope, They have generic chipset drivers that did not work with the raid controller onboard which then caused the installs the choke. After I found a x64 WS2003 chipset driver then I was golden with XP X64 (without audio and network) and that would probably work with Win7/Win8 (after painfully incorporating the driver into the install media). Really, my point is that with these old machines rather than HW being the determiner it is drivers that may limit what OS you can upgrade to.
 

timwhit

Hairy Aussie
Joined
Jan 23, 2002
Messages
5,278
Location
Chicago, IL
I have lots of spare parts and some time to kill so I just resurrected an old Athlon x64 4600+ that I had retired. It has an GA-K8N51PVM motherboard. The first observation, no drivers for anything other than XP x32 so I have a challenge. Win8 no go. Win7 searched and searched but I could not find a usable chipset, network driver nor audio driver. XP x64 still no network drivers (only x32 XP drivers). I tried installing mint (Linux) but I could not get the machine to boot to a thumb drive and didn't have any blank CDR media anymore (No DVD just a CDRom) to write an image and boot off the CD further the ISO's now exceed the size of a CD:tdown:. I ended up installing an old Intel network card and that worked well enough to make the XP X64 run (Probably Win7 too but that wasn't tried) and with 4GB of ram it seems quite snappy. Hey, one more GTX 460 to fold with...

Ubuntu 12.04 LTS should fit on a CD.
 

P5-133XL

Xmas '97
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
3,173
Location
Salem, Or
I'm sure I could have found one, if I had searched very hard at all. I like Mint and it didn't.
 

CougTek

Hairy Aussie
Joined
Jan 21, 2002
Messages
8,729
Location
Québec, Québec
Hey, one more GTX 460 to fold with...
So now you'll do between 200Kppd and 210ppd.

Fedora with LXDE or Lubuntu would have worked. I think both fit on a CD. Fedora 20 is due next week and there will also be a version with LXDE as the default window manager.

I much prefer the default layout of LXDE rather than XFce's.

I wouldn't use CentOS as it uses an old kernel (2.6.xx - the latest kernel is 3.12.2). Its main quality is its stability, not its performance.

I've never tried Mint.
 

Stereodude

Not really a
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
10,865
Location
Michigan
I tried installing mint (Linux) but I could not get the machine to boot to a thumb drive...
What was the problem? You hit F12 at the BIOS screen, pick Hard Disk, and then pick your listed USB flash drive from under that section and viola the USB flash drive boots.
 

Chewy509

Wotty wot wot.
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
3,358
Location
Gold Coast Hinterland, Australia
Fedora with LXDE or Lubuntu would have worked. I think both fit on a CD.
Lubuntu i386 (32bit), yes, just, Lubuntu x64 (64bit), no, unless you have CD media supporting 710MB ISO, Fedora with LXDE, yes, but not the KDE or GNOME editions of Fedora.

Also, the kernel with CentOS is heavily patches as well and includes many features from 3.x kernels... not to mention it still comes with GNOME 2 as the default...
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
22,297
Location
I am omnipresent
What was the problem? You hit F12 at the BIOS screen, pick Hard Disk, and then pick your listed USB flash drive from under that section and viola the USB flash drive boots.

That's HIGHLY dependent on chipset and BIOS support. That board SHOULD just work with nVidia nForce drivers, which would probably install the NIC and enable the IRQ steering or whatever the hell it is that's keeping your machine from seeing what was IIRC just Realtek audio, but if you're used to the OS just picking that stuff up I can definitely understand not wanting to go hunting for any of it.
 

Handruin

Administrator
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
13,931
Location
USA
That's HIGHLY dependent on chipset and BIOS support. That board SHOULD just work with nVidia nForce drivers, which would probably install the NIC and enable the IRQ steering or whatever the hell it is that's keeping your machine from seeing what was IIRC just Realtek audio, but if you're used to the OS just picking that stuff up I can definitely understand not wanting to go hunting for any of it.

I don't have the exact same board as P5 but I was able to get Server 2012 running on the same CPU and nforce chipset.

CPU: AMD X2 4600+ (Windsor)
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-M57SLI-S4 Motherboard (nForce 570 SLI)
Memory: 2x 1GB Corsair XMS DDR2 800 (4-4-4-12)
Memory: 2x 2GB Crucial Ballistix DDR2 800 (4-4-4-12)
 

P5-133XL

Xmas '97
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
3,173
Location
Salem, Or
What was the problem? You hit F12 at the BIOS screen, pick Hard Disk, and then pick your listed USB flash drive from under that section and viola the USB flash drive boots.

The BIOS has an option to boot from a USB-HD but whenever I put a bootable one in and restarted it would just hang. Yes, I made the boot order correct CD-ROM, USB-HD, then HD and yes, I did press F-12 and explicitly choose but that didn't matter. Don't forget these MB's were created when thumb drives were brand new and my guess is that they didn't have it right yet.
 

P5-133XL

Xmas '97
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
3,173
Location
Salem, Or
I don't have the exact same board as P5 but I was able to get Server 2012 running on the same CPU and nforce chipset.

CPU: AMD X2 4600+ (Windsor)
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-M57SLI-S4 Motherboard (nForce 570 SLI)
Memory: 2x 1GB Corsair XMS DDR2 800 (4-4-4-12)
Memory: 2x 2GB Crucial Ballistix DDR2 800 (4-4-4-12)

What can I say, you were luckier than me for I had more frustration than that.
 

Stereodude

Not really a
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
10,865
Location
Michigan
The BIOS has an option to boot from a USB-HD but whenever I put a bootable one in and restarted it would just hang. Yes, I made the boot order correct CD-ROM, USB-HD, then HD and yes, I did press F-12 and explicitly choose but that didn't matter. Don't forget these MB's were created when thumb drives were brand new and my guess is that they didn't have it right yet.
In my experience it won't work if you pick USB-HDD in the boot menu. The USB flash drive should show up under the list of HDs when you pick HD from the boot menu (F12). That thing is from 2007. It should boot from a USB flash drive. Heck, I have a Dell laptop from 2003-2004 that will boot from a USB flash drive.
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
22,297
Location
I am omnipresent
I recall support for USB boot on AMD-based machines of that vintage as finicky. I wasn't able to move fully to using Flash drives for OS loading until I started deploying Core 2 Duo machines because of random compatibility weirdness. I don't know if this is the case here but I'm willing to believe P5 knows how to tell a motherboard to boot off USB. :)

I have Thinkpad 560z from 1997 or '98 that will boot from a USB floppy, CD or hard disk (but not a flash drive), which is probably more attributable to a massively over-engineered BIOS than anything else.
 

Handruin

Administrator
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
13,931
Location
USA
What can I say, you were luckier than me for I had more frustration than that.

Sorry, my point wasn't to gloat. Server 2012 may just have been less picky than Win 8 or Win 7 in my case. Mine is also using the nForce 570 whereas yours is the nForce 430. Maybe that's some of the difference?


If you go to nVidia's website, they offer a legacy driver download package for the nForce 430 1650SE which I think your board has. The best they offer is Win Vista 32/64-bit.

Download from here.
1.) Select legacy
2.) nForce 4 series
3.) nForce 430 / 6150SE
4.) Windows Vista 64-bit
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
22,297
Location
I am omnipresent
I was inspired to write this out just now, explaining to someone why I don't want to work on his 11 year old, 512MB RAM, Celeron-having Dimension 4600 with AVG 2013 installed:

Quick, Counter-Intuitive Advice for People Still Using Older Computers

1. Internet Explorer is not now and never has been your friend, but it’s particularly not your friend on computers running Windows XP or Vista, neither of which can be updated to use modern, sorta-secure versions of IE. Yes, the people in your office tell you to use IE, but they’re telling you that because they have a staff of people on hand to deal with security issues and support that software. They also don’t want to be bothered to re-build an internal web site that was probably made to work with an ancient version of IE that doesn’t look right in anything else.

You’re far better off using Google Chrome, which is relatively quick even on slow computers, supports modern web code and updates itself constantly and without prompting.

Even Google Chrome needs a little help, so everyone using it (or Firefox, though it will seem a bit slower on an old PC) should definitely install Adblock Plus from adblockplus.org in their browser of choice. Ads, it turns out, are one of the most common places for Windows computers to be attacked. Not from clicking on them. Just from having them on your screen. Yes really.

2. An old computer with new Anti-virus software on it is pretty much a machine that’s being dedicated to running anti-virus software. Newer antivirus applications are built with the expectation that they’ll be run on reasonably new hardware, but some applications just aren’t worth installing. My “remove on sight” list starts with any consumer version of Symantec/Norton, McAfee, AVG or Trend Micro security product.

Better choices in terms of impact on performance are ESET NOD32 (paid) or Avast Free Antivirus.

As a rule of thumb, I usually suggest that a computer with a Windows Vista license sticker (built in approximately 2007, around 7 years old as of this writing) might be better off without Anti-virus software.

The truth is that viruses simply aren’t THAT common any more, and software that is categorized as “malware” (bad software that doesn’t try to infect other PCs and therefore not technically a virus) or “blended threats” (sophisticated software that might act like a virus, worm OR malware depending on circumstance) is often not stopped by common PC Security Applications. Slower computers are better off using their limited resources to deal with the most common and irritating threats. I suggest using Spybot 1.6.2 and SpywareBlaster immunizations, along with the Windows Firewall and functional ad-blocking software a as the foundation for good security on an old computer.

3. A $200 tablet or fancy smartphone can probably handle more of the web than your computer. It’s very probably faster than your 10-year-old computer in every way. The tablet will probably have a higher-resolution screen and will be able to play back a high resolution Youtube video without choking. If you’re using your computer just to access the web and not to burn CDs or store tens of gigabytes of pictures or music, you’re probably not doing anything with it that you couldn’t be doing with a mobile device. Even printing to a modern wireless printer from a mobile device isn’t that hard to set up.

Microsoft Office, long held as the classic example of software someone might want to use at home or at work, can now be used through any modern web browser on any computing platform except the iPad, using Office365.com. More or less everything these days has been “app-ified” so that it can be made to run in a web browser or accessed through the internet and the days of buying software from a store that installs from a disc are long gone.

4. Windows XP support from Microsoft ends this year. Vista is already considered unsupported. This does not make them unusable, but it does substantially limit the prospects for compatibility with anything newer; it simply won’t be much longer before updated versions of common software like web browsers won’t want to install on those older machines, rendering the computer in question actively unsafe to use on the internet.

Unfortunately, it’s also not worth upgrading the version of Windows on your old computer to a current release. Windows licenses are expensive and they’re almost always tied to individual, specific hardware. No one wants to spend $100 on a software license for a computer that might only live another six or nine months!

5. Your old computer is probably not worth the hassle to upgrade unless the upgrade parts and time to install it are both free. For a computer of pre-2009 vintage, adding RAM to get to at least 1GB (for XP) or 2GB (for Vista) will definitely improve the useful life of the computer, but since it’s actually possible to buy a whole five-year-old desktop computer complete with 2GB RAM and a Windows 7 license off Ebay for $100, it’s definitely not worth spending $50 just to get 1GB extra RAM.

6. One of the best ways to maintain an elder computer is to simply wipe it clean and start from scratch. If you have a copy of a Windows install disc (not a restore disc!) and you’re willing to invest the time, the difference between a clean slate Windows install and one with all the cruft that was delivered with the computer on date of purchase can be pretty shocking. Your old computer is probably loaded with random online services that no longer even function and tons of applications you’ve never used even once, so if you have the disc and the know-how, there’s a very high return on the time investment to put a clean copy of XP or Vista on that older
system. Similarly, some with an adventurous spirit or willingness to experiment might be shocked to know exactly how easily and well Linux will run, even on machines that are no longer fit for Windows.

If you’d like to reinstall Windows, be sure that you have drivers for or are at least aware of what hardware is in your current computer. It might be a good idea to download and copy the relevant software drivers from your computer manufacturer’s web site and you'll want to do this BEFORE you make your fresh start! You’ll also want to make sure that you have access to the install files of important applications. An online service such as Ninite.com will very often take care of the wide array free software we typically want on our 2014-era freshly installed compters.
 
Top