timwhit
Hairy Aussie
If MS doesn't write a frontend for it, someone else will.
Windows 10
- Thread starter Mercutio
- Start date
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
Actually, just looking at what's on chocolatey.org, I was able to paste together a script that installs CCleaner, AdwCleaner, Spybot, Malwarebytes, Avast and Hijack This. That's more or less my Anti-malware toolkit, and it includes some things that aren't available packaging services. I don't even care if there's a frontend. If I can throw "choco install flashplayerplugin" in a login script, that fixes some problems.
sedrosken
Florida Man
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
At one point, Microsoft was making some noises that the 8 to 8.1 "upgrade" was only going to be available for a year as well.
There's probably not a technical reason why there can't be a direct update path and it's in most peoples' interest to be running the newest thing, but I'm sure it'll drive corporate IT nuts.
There's probably not a technical reason why there can't be a direct update path and it's in most peoples' interest to be running the newest thing, but I'm sure it'll drive corporate IT nuts.
Tannin
Storage? I am Storage!
The UI is pox but it runs Classic Shell. It has no new features of any interest. It seems to be about as fast as Windows 8.x. Yawn.
The big worry is the "free" upgrade. There is some nasty-looking vagueness in their language; I very much fear that the purpose of "free" Win 10 is to get as many people off Win 7 & 8.x as possible. Then, at some suitable point a few years down the track, they announce that your hardware is no longer supported and you have to buy a subscription to Windows 11 or 12.
The big worry is the "free" upgrade. There is some nasty-looking vagueness in their language; I very much fear that the purpose of "free" Win 10 is to get as many people off Win 7 & 8.x as possible. Then, at some suitable point a few years down the track, they announce that your hardware is no longer supported and you have to buy a subscription to Windows 11 or 12.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
I think the goal is to get consumers on board for a streaming release cycle. Other than one very minor change (no execute support, which was implemented in Athlon64 and last-generation Pentium 4s as long as they have ca. 2007-era chipsets) going from 8 to 8.1, there hasn't been anything different about Windows hardware requirements in more than eight years. That will make consumer support and hopefully also application development far easier.
I also think that end users, especially those who haven't experienced Windows 8 because they were warned away from it, will like the performance enhancements. I expect some whining about the new Settings app that replaces Control Panel, but even that is a place where end users hardly spend any time.
I also think that end users, especially those who haven't experienced Windows 8 because they were warned away from it, will like the performance enhancements. I expect some whining about the new Settings app that replaces Control Panel, but even that is a place where end users hardly spend any time.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
It's a new thing, like the Start Screen in Windows 8.
Settings looks like this:
Settings looks like this:
Tannin
Storage? I am Storage!
That is my reading of it too.
Minor? It was a very serious change which crippled a great many perfectly good, fast systems. Microsoft lied: they said it would only cripple a handful of 10-year-old systems because the very first CPUs and chipsets with appropriate support came out ~ 10 years before 8.1. In actual fact, Windows 8.1 refuses to install or run on millions of fast, modern, mainstream CPUs and chipsets which were being sold in large numbers right up until just before the 8.1 release. There are any number of people who have been shafted by this unannounced change introduced on what amounts to a service pack. They can't run 8.1 and they can't buy 7 anymore. All they can do is install 8.0 and then throw the system away in 12 months time when 8.0 support finishes. Microsoft nailed pretty much all of the AMD CPUs prior to about 2011 or so, and a very large number of Intel systems of that same period too - in most cases, the sticking point with the Intel ones is chipset rather than CPU, but that matters not at all.
I agree. 8.x is significantly faster than 7, it is very noticable. As for the control panel thing, yes. It's a change without a difference. I can't see any sensible person caring too much one way or the other.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
The NX bit was implemented on both Intel (on Prescott P4s) and AMD (Starting with the Athlon64) in 2004. As it happens, some vendors were still shipping motherboards with chipsets that did not support the implementation of the NX bit for some considerably longer period, but if somebody was sold a machine running Windows 8 with an i915 chipset in 2011, maybe that's something they should take up with their system vendor. In any case, that machine will be at LEAST five by the time Windows 8 is EOL'd, and it's not like it's going to stop being a useful computer at that point in time.
There's a separate issue with first-gen Athlon64s and x2s missing a specific x64 instruction set that 64-bit Windows 8.1 needs, but those machines are still compatible with 32-bit Windows 8.1 if support for an updated OS is somehow more important than using more than 3GB RAM. And if it's AMD and it's at least socket AM2, there's probably a compatible CPU upgrade that could be sold to bring them in line regardless.
A bigger problem I see for the near future is that Intel was still shipping 32-bit Atom CPUs in 2012. When MS finally drops support for 32 bit desktop Windows, there will be no end of uproar.
So now it takes longer to find anything in the CP? 
It's not the end of world.
My problem in general is that with every new Windows release it seems that some older apps no longer work properly or at all.
In some cases the apps are no longer available or replacements are much crappier bloatware.
It's not the end of world. My problem in general is that with every new Windows release it seems that some older apps no longer work properly or at all.
In some cases the apps are no longer available or replacements are much crappier bloatware.
Tannin
Storage? I am Storage!
Bah - as if 32-bit Windows is any good to anyone these days. There are millions of perfectly good, fast modern machines out there which have been effectively bricked by this stupid change. Now if MS has announced a brand new Windows version and said it wouldn't support chip X, that's one thing. It is another thing entirely to sneak the change in through the back door as they did and shaft people who paid good money for Windows 8 only to find themselves running an orphan OS with no upgrade path and no support. And then lie about it.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
So now it takes longer to find anything in the CP?
My problem in general is that with every new Windows release it seems that some older apps no longer work properly or at all.
In some cases the apps are no longer available or replacements are much crappier bloatware.
The UI changes since Windows Vista lend themselves more to users searching for the function they want than needing to know the UI path. If you've been doing that for the last eight years, having a different view of control panel is irrelevant.
As far as apps not working, there's a HUGE break caused by loss of 16 bit support in 64-bit Windows, another for losing WDM drivers and yet another caused by UAC and users losing full ACLs on certain folders. Almost all the big breaks came in the switch to Vista. The good news is that most of those feature changes are stable, so the number of newly incompatible applications should be fairly short.
CSB: One of my customers just rolled out the new version of an application that had previously required Windows XP. The new version specified that all users had to have Windows 7 Professional running as the named Administrator account with UAC and the Windows Firewall off. The setup instructions specifically included modifying ACL inheritance and changing ownership of folders under Program Files (x86). I'm almost positive it's the same program as the old version, it's just that my customer paid $500/station plus the cost of new PCs for directions to make it run on Windows 7. The application is just frontend to MSSQL that was written in some old version of Delphi, I think.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
First, those machines aren't bricked. They're running Windows 8. They can do everything an 8.1 machine can, with some very minor interface differences, just like Vista can do everything that 7 can.
Second, trying to explain minute differences in CPU architecture is incredibly difficult and tedious. I have to give a lecture about that to interested parties probably five times a year, and it's literally painful to everyone involved. Because of the ways that CPU branding and labeling have changed since the 90s, we can't just say "Your Pentium can do XYZ." Even if I write something like "Your socket 754, 939 or 940 AMD CPU is excluded from this upgrade", almost no one but a hardcore techie is going to have any idea whether or not they are impacted, and that's more specific than anything in Microsoft's support documents. My understanding is that some of the AthlonX2s do work, which means that branding alone is not enough information to disseminate regarding compatibility.
There's probably also a way to fix or hide the issue via a firmware fix, if anybody actually cared to make one.
Tannin
Storage? I am Storage!
They are bricked. Windows 8.0 support ends October 18th, 2015. People bought Windows 8 because their Windows XP support was ending - and then got shafted with this disgraceful scam.
And they didn't have to explain diddly squat. All they had to do was refrain from wiping out major slices of the installed base by stealth, using a service pack. It would be a different matter if they had done it the normal way, coincident with a major release, giving people a much better chance to become aware of the new hardware requirements, and giving existing purchasers of the previous, hardware compatible version, their normal, as-promised, support cycle.
And they didn't have to explain diddly squat. All they had to do was refrain from wiping out major slices of the installed base by stealth, using a service pack. It would be a different matter if they had done it the normal way, coincident with a major release, giving people a much better chance to become aware of the new hardware requirements, and giving existing purchasers of the previous, hardware compatible version, their normal, as-promised, support cycle.
Stereodude
Not really a
AFIAK, Windows 7 has longer support than 8.0.
Chewy509
Wotty wot wot.
@Tannin, yep it sucks for those with viable and working hardware to be stuck on an EOL platform... But their version won't stop workling on the EOL date, and they also have the option to move either Win8.1 32bit or GNU/Linux (choose your poision) to remain with a supported product. Or they can upgrade their hardware...
Regarding dates, according to http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?c2=16796 Windows 8 mainstream support ends 2018 and extended support ends 2023... However reading the footnotes, the real date for 8.0 EOL may be Nov-2015 which is two years since 8.1 was released... I can't find anything concrete on MS's website for EOL for 8.0...
Regarding dates, according to http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?c2=16796 Windows 8 mainstream support ends 2018 and extended support ends 2023... However reading the footnotes, the real date for 8.0 EOL may be Nov-2015 which is two years since 8.1 was released... I can't find anything concrete on MS's website for EOL for 8.0...
Chewy509
Wotty wot wot.
Both Intel and AMD can issue a microcode update to include new instructions (LAHF-SAHF, CMPXCHG16B and PREFETCHW), BUT it'll require support from motherboard vendors (CPU microcode updates can be shipped as part of the BIOS image or as part of the OS) and OS vendors. In reality, both AMD and Intel will just sell you a new CPU instead...
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
I have already made these points. I think Tannin's mad 'cause he built a lot of AthlonX2 machines and his customers gave him an ear full.
time
Storage? I am Storage!
I was hoping to update a <6-year old Pentium from XP to Windows 8 (long story short, it was going to be replaced but the HDD started to die and I had to replace both it and the PSU). Which Intel chipsets are cursed with this issue?
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
My fleet of Intel 946 and G31 boards all seem to work fine. I've found that some but not all 915s work. I've never bothered with anything older than that.
Tannin
Storage? I am Storage!
I have already made these points. I think Tannin's mad 'cause he built a lot of AthlonX2 machines and his customers gave him an ear full.
No. They expect to be shafted by big companies like Microsoft, and they know I'll always do my best to find the best answer for them. But it isn't only Athlons - of which I sold a truck load - it's a hell of a lot of dual core Intel chips as well. All those customers, shafted. It's no skin off my nose - who do you think gets to sell them the new hardware to replace their perfectly functional old hardware? - but these are sales I'd rather do without. It's a disgrace.
sedrosken
Florida Man
I have to agree with Tannin here -- there is just no excuse for completely dropping support for a line of otherwise perfectly functional machines just because they don't support a single feature that rarely if ever actually gets used in any meaningful capacity. For example, the NX bit is of almost no consequence, because if someone wants to give users a virus, by God they will give them one. The way I figure, they could just warn the user that they're more vulnerable to these threats. And PAE as a requirement? Why? Why, when they have never and likely will never extend 32-bit Windows to even think of using more than 4GB RAM? I get that they want to lock it to machines from this century, but if people want to shove a shiny new OS onto a computer that makes dinosaurs look like youngsters, why try to stop them?
But at the end of the day, it's Microsoft making decisions that are good for Microsoft. Really, what else could we reasonably expect them to do? If anything, they're probably trying to boost PC sales by locking out old hardware that is otherwise perfectly capable. I can't say I blame them for doing that -- they make most of their money by selling licenses to OEMs, and OEMs aren't going to be buying very many licenses if they aren't selling very many computers, will they?
My Sempron will run Windows 8.1 just fine, albeit slowly. I got bored one day and tested that. It even had WDDM drivers available for the integrated graphics, although those were actually meant for Vista. Meanwhile, my old GX270, which is roundabout as powerful at the end of the day, absolutely refuses to run it in any capacity. No support for NX. I'm sure someone managed to get past that requirement, but I don't have the ambition to.
But at the end of the day, it's Microsoft making decisions that are good for Microsoft. Really, what else could we reasonably expect them to do? If anything, they're probably trying to boost PC sales by locking out old hardware that is otherwise perfectly capable. I can't say I blame them for doing that -- they make most of their money by selling licenses to OEMs, and OEMs aren't going to be buying very many licenses if they aren't selling very many computers, will they?
My Sempron will run Windows 8.1 just fine, albeit slowly. I got bored one day and tested that. It even had WDDM drivers available for the integrated graphics, although those were actually meant for Vista. Meanwhile, my old GX270, which is roundabout as powerful at the end of the day, absolutely refuses to run it in any capacity. No support for NX. I'm sure someone managed to get past that requirement, but I don't have the ambition to.
Chewy509
Wotty wot wot.
Actually, implementation of the NX bit solves a host of issues with exploit mitigation, stopping both remote and local exploits from occurring... Whilst NX won't stop trojans, it can and does stop a whole range of other malware of performing the initial infection... And with AV solutions being as crap as they are, I'll take anything I can get to help the situation.
Allows large page support, reducing pressure on the TLB and paging system leading to better performance.
Some Windows 2000 server versions (Datacenter) and Windows 2003 server (Enterprise and Datacentre) used PAE to utilise above 4GB RAM. MSSQL and Exchange (of appropriate versions) could access more than 4GB of RAM in these environments whilst still being 32bit applications... For home users, that didn't really apply as most machines in 2000-2003 only had 256MB-512MB of RAM at most...
The biggest issue was enforcement of having a CPU that supported CMPXCHG16b for 64bit Windows. As this effects people who have more than 4GB RAM, and even some users who have 4GB of RAM, forcing them to run 32bit Windows and losing a chunk of RAM that could be used otherwise... As for why CMPXCHG16b is important, the use of the this instruction allows test and set operations atomically in 64bit environments in a clean and safe manner, especially for the memory management system (eg updating the page tables, setting semaphores and mutexes when a large amount of threads are running, etc).
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What does that mean exactly? I've never received any Windows support ever from the Miscrosoft. Are there no security updates or doesn't it boot?
Chewy509
Wotty wot wot.
Just no more security updates for the core OS... You may still get updates for things like IE and other shared/common components like .NET, etc after this date, but nothing for the core OS itself.
IIRC, the MS policy is to stop support for a version once the next service pack has been released for 2 yrs. Windows 8.1 (which is considered a service pack for 8.0) was released on Nov-2013, therefore support for 8.0 will cease on Nov-2015.
Source: http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?c2=16796
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
I honestly think that the Windows 10 launch and aftermath is going to be very similar to Windows 7's. After it's been out for a short amount of time, it'll be as if Windows 8 never existed.
sedrosken
Florida Man
Thanks for the clarification, guys.
I agree with Merc. With the hype that Windows 10 is getting, in combination with the actual improvements (that people other than power users/sysadmins care about, because let's face it, even though Win8.x's task manager is nice, do you really think grandma will care much about that?) being made, Windows 8.x will be the Vista of its time. Except, unlike Vista, where you still had to buy the license to upgrade to Windows 7 and thus there was a decently high barrier to entry, now the only way MS could ensure that more people upgrade would be to push it through Windows Update. Windows 10 commercials haven't started coming out yet, but I'm sure they will soon enough. I'm sure that's just because it hasn't actually gotten released yet. I imagine that when the RCs start coming out, that's when they'll start pushing commercials.
I agree with Merc. With the hype that Windows 10 is getting, in combination with the actual improvements (that people other than power users/sysadmins care about, because let's face it, even though Win8.x's task manager is nice, do you really think grandma will care much about that?) being made, Windows 8.x will be the Vista of its time. Except, unlike Vista, where you still had to buy the license to upgrade to Windows 7 and thus there was a decently high barrier to entry, now the only way MS could ensure that more people upgrade would be to push it through Windows Update. Windows 10 commercials haven't started coming out yet, but I'm sure they will soon enough. I'm sure that's just because it hasn't actually gotten released yet. I imagine that when the RCs start coming out, that's when they'll start pushing commercials.
From a functional standpoint I do not equate Win8/8.1 with Vista at all. Aside from the ridiculous metro UI (which is easily changed using classic shell or Start8), Win8.1 has been a pleasure to use which is NOT something I will ever say about Vista. I find myself using the system and not noticing the OS. That means it's been staying out of my way so I can remain productive. It has been very stable. I often go a month of uptime before a reboot which is due when security patches are applied. If Win10 ends up being equally as fast and stable I'll consider changing over to it but I don't see a need to migrate at this time.
So some computers that run 8.0 won't run 8.1? That would be horrible.
Stereodude
Not really a
You're catching on.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
Not functionality but in the matter of public perception. I like 8 a lot and I wind up defending it frequently among people who have probably never had an opinion about software before in their life. Playing up Windows 8.x among home and small business users is like asking them to do body shots off a hobo. It's just poisoned. THAT is why it will disappear at the earliest possible moment.
Ironically, one of the things that makes going back to 7 annoying for me is how much I've adapted to the Win-X shortcuts (Win-X-A brings up an administrative cmd.exe, for example). It's probably the best UI enhancements made available for Windows since the switch from Program Manager to Explorer.
Now I understand why the little ape is hopping mad.
I am lucky to have avoided Win 8. It's odd that 7 is still supported, but I'm not complaining.
Tannin
Storage? I am Storage!
Well said, Doug. That is exactly my experience and my view also. I'd add a couple of extra essential UI tweaks: Explorer ++ to replace the horrible default Windows Explorer (this applies equally to 7); a search function that works (by "works" I mean "actually finds stuff" - radical I know, but I always was a bit weird. I use a combination of Everything and ZTree; doutless there are other good ones); and a decent text editor to replace the brain-dead notepad which, apparently, hasn't improved so as anyone would notice since Windows 3.1 days. For small tasks and as the default *.TXT editor, I use the excelent Metapad. For more serious work, you can't go past a proper programmer's editor, Edit Plus for me.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
Microsoft is apparently so serious about "free upgrades" to 10 that it also applies to pirated copies as well.
I finally got around to putting it on a laptop with a mic so I could try Cortana. It's practically worthless. Basically it searches Bing for things. It's not capable of opening applications or sending e-mail, even with the default Windows Mail application configured.
There doesn't appear to be a way to change the underlying search, either.
Also, after a couple months of no majorl updates, supposedly beta testers will be getting the RTM stuff real soon now.
I finally got around to putting it on a laptop with a mic so I could try Cortana. It's practically worthless. Basically it searches Bing for things. It's not capable of opening applications or sending e-mail, even with the default Windows Mail application configured.
There doesn't appear to be a way to change the underlying search, either.
Also, after a couple months of no majorl updates, supposedly beta testers will be getting the RTM stuff real soon now.
Why are they doing that? I'm naturally very suspicious of anything that is free or low cost. Will MS be spying on everything or taking control of the computer with no recourse, etc. in the future?
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
Windows Search forcing the use of Cortana/Bing and Windows Defender's default behavior of overriding the hosts file are fairly huge privacy concerns, plus letting Microsoft analyze the content of your OneDrive account if you're using that. But most of us disclose the same information completely willingly to Google and/or Facebook.
What about the hard drive search? Is there no explorer or third patron for it?
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
I don't think Microsoft would be able to operate as a corporate entity if it were disclosing the content of local files not stored in OneDrive. It would be sued into a bloody pulp. At the same time, it probably does collect metadata about that content.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
Office 2016's preview edition launched on Monday as well. Looks like most of the major enhancements are in Outlook, but it looks like the ribbon items have a little more contrast in the new version.