Windows 10

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
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#1
This can be the thread about Windows 10. I'm sure we'll need one of those.
So far, what we know is that it has an unholy combination of start menu and start screen, modern style apps can be made to run in windows, virtual desktop support, apps can be docked to corners and the standard console (cmd.exe) is going to work more like an xterm. Here's a link, as if you haven't already read about all of this already.

I'm not sure what part of that is worth calling it a new OS, but apparently the upgrade for existing Windows licenses is going to be free or really cheap.

So... yay?

From a techie standpoint, one thing I hope to see is for the desktop version of Hyper-V to be more functional and less retarded.
 

Handruin

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#2
I'm interested in trying it just to see what it's like. I'm otherwise content with Windows 8 with the classic shell or start8 menu. That would be neat to have a desktop version of Hyper-V that is functional.
 
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#4
I can only think of one explanation to skipping #9. Since 2000, all the even versions have sucked. They know this one is going to suck, and didn't wanted to break the trend.
 

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#5
Talking about Windows versions in common release you have Windows 3.1, 95, 98, 2000, ME, XP, Vista, 7 and 8, so the next one would be the 10th major launch. Maybe?

One of my big concerns is the extent to which software will be deployed from the Windows Store vs. normal updates. I also want to see if there are any improvements for modern-style apps since the whole paradigm for them seems to be avoiding interaction with the file system, and if desktop Hyper-V gets back to the level of functionality present in Virtual PC on Windows 7.

In the end, Windows 10 doesn't actually have to be great. It just has to be better than Windows 8 is. I like Windows 8 fine (and I REALLY like it from a management standpoint), but I think we can all admit that's still a pretty low bar to clear.
 

sedrosken

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#6
I'm hoping to see that combination start menu/start screen. In what way will CMD be behaving more like XTerm? I thought it already did, to a certain extent.

I hope the upgrade license is free, because even at really cheap I'll end up waiting a couple years at best to use it extensively. And I really hope they don't exclude the special low-cost SKUs such as the "with Bing" edition from the upgrade, or even the free licensing.

If they deploy it through the Windows Store, even if it's free I can guarantee you that it will be years before any significant numbers upgrade (without it being preinstalled on their new PC). Ninety percent of the people I know don't know 8.1 exists, they just know it as Windows 8. Those who bought their machines with 8 still have 8 on them, and those who have 8.1 are almost guaranteed to have it because their OEM had it preinstalled. How will they handle upgrades from 7? Will they even let you upgrade directly from 7? How is the support for older hardware, such as the Core 2 series? Are they dropping it like a bad habit?

One way to ensure that (mostly) everyone gets it is to push it through Windows Update, especially if it's free. Most people have auto-update turned on. I don't, but that's beside the point.

When will we see a retail release? Is it set in stone (though as we all know MS never puts anything out on time)?

(Jesus, if I'd just read the darn article I'd know all this. I didn't see the link, sorry guys.)
 

sedrosken

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#7
I'm going to be downloading the preview ISO tomorrow while I'm at school, and hope to god that it runs on my Sempron, because I don't really trust it on my laptop and I want to see how well it handles on real hardware. If I can't get it running on the Sempron, I guess I'll have to make do with running it in Virtualbox, but my first impressions of it won't be as good because VMs have historically failed to perform very well for me.
 

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#8
I'm going to make my class tomorrow about installing it. I have a couple crappy notebooks and a desktops from early C2D to lga1150 i3 systems and it'll be fun for everyone to see what it will run on.

Also, unlike any beta version of Windows I can remember, it supports an upgrade install from 7 or 8.
 

Handruin

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#9
I don't know how true this is yet, but sources keep popping up with many references that this is the reason why they skipped Windows 9...

Code:
            String os = System.getProperty("os.name");

            if (os.startsWith("Windows 9") || os.equals("Windows Me")) {

                throw new RuntimeException(
 

CougTek

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#11
From a techie standpoint, one thing I hope to see is for the desktop version of Hyper-V to be more functional and less retarded.
Do you mean the Hyper-V manager? The main problem I have with it is the difficulty I have to connect to the servers at the office through the VPN connection with my home computer. Even with a computer configured to be part of the domain, the Hyper-V manager doesn't want to connect to the office servers. I have to log in on a remote session at the office and then manage the servers from there.

Once I have access to the servers, I have no complain about the manager.
 

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#12
Do you mean the Hyper-V manager?
Yeah. It's god awful, especially if you regularly switch between external network configurations. Would you want to walk an end user through reconfiguring their vSwitches? The desktop version also doesn't support clipboard sharing. We're supposed to do everything through RDP, but if I virtualized somebody's old machine and it had Windows XP Home edition on it, that ain't happening.
Good thing we have Virtualbox.
 

Bozo

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#13
Microsoft just doesn't get it. Desktop users don't want Metro or whatever it's called. Yet they have it attached to the new start menu, like a giant oozing abscess.
I haven't found a way to remove it.

Classic shell still works!!
 

sedrosken

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#14
I know it isn't meant to be a daily driver, and I said I wouldn't, but to test the upgrade capability I installed it over my copy of 8.1. It only occured after I installed it that I wouldn't be able to revert, but at this point I'm not all that worried. I'm having no issues to speak of, except for Metro apps re-opening immediately after closing them (and I've sent feedback about that), but if I close them again after they re-open they stay closed. An annoyance, yes, but nothing terrible. It kept 99.97% of all of my settings and applications from my 8.1 install, right down to my Firefox preferences. I'm pretty happy.

An option to completely remove Metro altogether would be nice, Bozo, but you and I and that fence post over there all know that Microsoft will never do it. They've spent the last two years pushing Metro, why would they all of a sudden abandon ship now? At least they brought back a semi-traditional start menu. I actually use a couple Metro apps so having them display live tiles on the menu is a welcome addition for me.
 

sedrosken

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#15
I know it isn't meant to be a daily driver, and I said I wouldn't, but to test the upgrade capability I installed it over my copy of 8.1. It only occured after I installed it that I wouldn't be able to revert, but at this point I'm not all that worried. I'm having no issues to speak of, except for Metro apps re-opening immediately after closing them (and I've sent feedback about that), but if I close them again after they re-open they stay closed. An annoyance, yes, but nothing terrible. It kept 99.97% of all of my settings and applications from my 8.1 install, right down to my Firefox preferences. I'm pretty happy.

An option to completely remove Metro altogether would be nice, Bozo, but you and I and that fence post over there all know that Microsoft will never do it. They've spent the last two years pushing Metro, why would they all of a sudden abandon ship now? At least they brought back a semi-traditional start menu. I actually use a couple Metro apps so having them display live tiles on the menu is a welcome addition for me.
 

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#16
They're officially called "Modern Style Applications", I think. Some of them are even pretty nice, like News Bento or Netflix. You also have to remember that modern style programs aren't being made for you. They're being made for younger people who have grown up with Xbox 360 and mobile devices. I think the goal is to build a certain level of technical competency through familiarity with those interfaces that you've never been significantly exposed to.

The biggest drawback with modern style is really that they apps are not allowed meaningful access to the filesystem and there's no interface for changing where they do or can look for content. That's something I sincerely hope they address.
 

CougTek

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#17
You also have to remember that modern style programs aren't being made for you. They're being made for younger people who have grown up with Xbox 360 and mobile devices.
You could say that to most forum members, but Sedrosken actually is a younger person who has grown up with Xbox 360 and mobile devices.
 

sedrosken

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#19
That's true: I was, after all, around for the Xbox 360 and the rise of the iPhone/iPod touch, but I was a lot later to the party. I've always preferred PCs, they can do so much more. An Xbox can play games, and now they can run the "Universal Modern Apps." But a PC can do all of that and then quite a bit more. Let me know how photo-editing works out on that Tegra 2 Android tablet. Or how a dual analog stick controller works for web browsing. I know you can plug a M/KB into the Xbox, but it defeats the purpose of having an Xbox. If you're going to use it with a M/KB, just use them with a PC!

Call me when they start putting decent graphics cards in Windows tablets, and I might give them a gander. Might. But AFAIK, the best they have put into a tablet is with the Surface Pro 3 and it's integrated HD 5000 courtesy of its i7-4650U. They can't and won't put decent GPUs in them for a while yet, I think, because of heat dissipation. GPUs generate tons of heat. In a desktop, and even a laptop sometimes, the heat isn't an issue because it has a certain amount of airflow, and the desktop ones having full blown heatsinks with fans on them helps a lot. In a tablet, there's nowhere for it to go except out to the outer shell, melting plastic and burning hands.
 

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#20
I saw Windows 10 running on five different machines today and was able to do side by side comparisons between 7, 8.1 and 10 on identical hardware for two of those. My students saw a tiny (like, 1 - 1.5 seconds) boot time improvement between 8.1 and 10 on older machines but I really could not see any subjective performance changes otherwise.

We did a mix of upgrade and clean installs. The upgrades were painless once Antivirus applications were shut off.

The Start Screen is completely gone. The Charms bar is gone. PC Settings (place were Control Panel Settings go) is still present. The modern style apps appear identical to the Windows 8 versions and no one had problems opening or closing them.
There's a Bing Search button next to the Start button. I'm not sure why it's there.

The only weird issue I've seen so far is that the ink monitor utility for Epson inkjets didn't work but did appear to be installed automatically.
 

sedrosken

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#21
You can re-enable the start screen - not that you'd want to, but it's there - by going to Taskbar properties, and under the Start Menu tab unchecking the option "Use the Start menu instead of the Start screen". Presumably on touch devices the Start screen stays put.

Yeah, funny thing about AVs. Mine didn't go off at all during the install. Windows 10 left it back in Windows.old, so I left it there. If it's not seeing anything wrong with modifying system files, it needs to begone from my realm.

It was Avast free.
 

sedrosken

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#22
So I got my first taste of a 1080p display today. Dad let me borrow his monitor (for the computer that he NEVER uses) for a little while today.

I am so jealous, but then, my poor little Intel HD can't push anything much more intense than Quake 3 (and probably not even that) at 1080p.

I did this to test dual monitors in Windows 10, so that's how it relates to this thread. As you can guess, multi-monitor support in this is just as good as in 8.1.
 

CougTek

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#23
Installed the Windows 10 preview? Did you know that? That "feature" better vanish from the production release or I swear I wipe Microsoft from all the buildings I manage.
 

sedrosken

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#24
Okay, that's kind of scary. But they pretty much have to remove that from the retail release, don't they? Otherwise isn't it considered a violation of privacy?

Oh, I get it. They put it as an obscure clause in their EULA and then count on nobody reading it.

I get having the feature in the name of feedback stimulation, but they won't really keep it in the retail release, will they? If they don't, all of the installed copies (of which there will be millions) will be sending in information. I'm sure the government has the man-power to break down all of this information, but MS? I just don't see it happening, especially since Nadella laid off a bunch of people.
 

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#25
Relax. It's for software testing. You should know better than to do anything secret or mission critical on a Microsoft beta OS that's going to expire in six months anyway.
If it makes you feel any better, it's not like Microsoft is going to do anything other than datamine the hell out of what they're getting from users, which is what Google and Facebook do all day every day already. No human being is ever going to pay attention to your individual activity. Just stick to writing your Transformers Slash fiction on a computer that doesn't have Windows 10 on it if it really bugs you.
 

sedrosken

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#26
I don't care if they're watching me. What they see on my screen is their fault, not mine. :-D I will not be held responsible for their burned retinas.

Transformers slashfic? I'd like to see someone pull that off. I know I'm certainly not a good enough writer to do so.
 

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#27
Windows Server beta is also available now. There's some particularly interesting stuff going on for storage pool tech:

"Windows Server 2012 introduced Storage Spaces, a method of pooling physical storage devices (hard drives or SSDs) into logical volumes in order to boost performance and reliability. Windows Server 2012 R2 added automated tiering, with pools of SSDs being used for the most frequently accessed data and spinning hard drives for less frequently used data.

Two major features added in the Windows Server Technical Preview are aimed at common use cases for Windows Server-based storage. The first, Storage QoS (Quality of Service), leverages PowerShell and WMI (Windows Management Instrumentation) to build policies managing prioritization and performance of virtual hard disks. The second, Storage Replica, brings block-level replication to Windows Server. Storage Replica provides high availability and can even be used to build multisite, fail-over clusters. Between Storage QoS and Storage Replica, the Windows Server Technical Preview shows Microsoft is serious about making Windows Server a viable option for all of your storage needs."

All in all it sounds like there's more to be excited about for sysadmins than end users for the next version of Windows. Unless you're THAT excited about the new start menu.
 

sedrosken

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#28
And running Metro apps in a window! Don't forget about that - *cough*ModernMix*cough*. Whoever did it first, this time, I think MS did it better. For once.

That start menu is more to be excited about than you think, Merc - this marks the first time (that I know of, at least) MS has gone back on a bad call without being forced to by some government or another.
 

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#29
You just haven't been around long enough.

I've been letting my Windows 10 testbed machine do matching for streaming through Xbox Music. I have about 3.3TB of music files, but it's primarily classical music. It's been running for 6 days and so far out of everything I have (and it all has correct metadata), it's only found 1900 matching tracks.
 

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#31
There are a few hundred thousand files there. The way I understand things, it's supposed to match tracks to content that Microsoft has a license to stream. Maybe it just hasn't hit the popular music yet, but either it's glacially slow or it doesn't match anything but top 40 music. The stuff that's shown up so far is mostly movie soundtrack content.
 

Santilli

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#33
What was that line from James Bond?

Something about Carver saying make sure the first software release is really buggy, so we can charge them for endless upgrades?
Sounds more like Apple.

That said, REALLY? Do you all think the end result is worth your efforts to improve the product of one of the richest companies in the world, convicted of breaking monopoly law, and fined, while you actually pay THEM, for making their product for them?

Wow, what a great business for them. They get to lay off their workers, while the tech industry designs their product, paying them for the right to do so.

After Windows 8.1, it sounds like they very well will do whatever the Hell they want, ignoring your suggestions, but, getting you to buy into their awful decisions, since you paid to input, and paid for the product.

Snake oil sales people.

The really obvious issue is that get access to the brightest guys in the world, who are then paying them, for their own IDEAS!!!
 

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#34
Like it or not, we all have to deal with Windows. Even the guys who actually do get to spend their days on *nix or OSX systems still encounter Windows with some regularity. It makes good sense for Windows to help make Windows the best OS that it can be; it really is the point of commonality for our computing experience.
 

sedrosken

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#35
Why should it be? Why can't the world shift to *nix and be somewhat uniform? All of the major OSes (except Windows, and even Windows lifts some features off of it) are some form of *nix. Well, okay, I say major, but really, Windows holds almost ~90% of the Desktop OS market share. WINE and Cider work okay for most Windows applications, but it can be a configuration nightmare. PlayOnLinux only does so much.

Porting work between the various *nixes is easy, because the processor architecture is usually the same, and there is always building from source for most things. APIs are at least similar from one variant to the next.

Backwards compatibility? Who needs it? Oh, right. 99% of everyone. Forget what I said.
 

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#36
We don't really need any sort of software monoculture. We need different web browsers, programming languages, E-mail clients and operating systems. I'm glad that the option to use "something else" exists, even for the technology where I'd never use that other option myself, just because there are going to be people for whom that is a better option and their needs should be accommodated as well (unless what they want is iOS, in which case they're clearly subhuman and should be treated as the developmentally disabled invertebrates that they clearly are).

Windows has slowly picked up more and more *nix-like features over time. Powershell is a big-boy scripting language. Windows does symlinks and mount points now. RDP is in a lot of ways superior to X11. Windows Server Core is administered from a shell prompt. At one time (probably before sed was born, but still), Windows didn't even really have per-user home directories and clearly that's gotten better.

I'd very much like it if Windows would allow users to specify important folder locations during install time and if the RDP server were made standard on all versions of Windows, but it's not like Windows is particularly slow or buggy these days. There's not a whole lot to complain about any more.
 

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#38
Hyper V was in Windows 8 as well. Now let's have an argument about how useful it is to have to use RDP to have a fully functional guest OS, 'cause having to do everything through the Hyper-V Connection Manager blows goats.
 

sedrosken

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#40
Ohoho, this may just be what the NT platform needed. What are the chances that they'll make a graphical front-end for it, so it's usable for the average bear? Just the package manager in general sounds like a really good idea, one that, honestly, they should have implemented years ago. The fact that it will supposedly support non-Microsoft application installs is nothing short of a miracle on their part. Perhaps MS really is changing.
 
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