Windows 11

[Mercutio]

Apparently Windows 11 has leaked. I haven't heard about anything but cosmetic changes yet, but we'll all be complaining about it soon enough. Might as well make a thread.

The biggest change I'm aware of is a move of the Start button to the center of the dock, which, one, who cares? And two, why? Nothing else works that way; even MacOS keeps Launchpad and the System menu in the corner by default, and it kills decades of muscle memory for anyone already familiar with Windows (or ChromeOS, or most Linux desktop environments with an equivalent).

 

[sedrosken]

At least as of the leaked build you can revert that. It's probably some way to be DiFfErEnT but draw some inspiration from both macOS (the dock) and ChromeOS in that its menu IIRC works much the same way.

 

[Mercutio]

I think we all know how popular random UI changes are for Windows users.
I have a few customers that still use Office 2003 because they hate the ribbon THAT much.

 

[Chewy509]

And now it's formally announced,,,

Seen a few of the youtube channels have reviewed the leaked beta, and IMHO if's 'meh'... nothing to see here, move along type stuff.

 

[Chewy509]

Interesting note: The min specs for Win11 have increased (no surprise there), but TPM 2.0 is now a hard requirement...

Want Windows 11? Your PC better have these specs

Windows 11 comes with new, stricter hardware requirements: more memory, more storage, and a Trusted Platform Module, or TPM. What does all this mean? We explain.

www.pcworld.com

 

[sdbardwick]

I'd bet Microsoft walks back some of those requirements for upgrades; wouldn't be surprised if they leave them in place for new OEM licenses.
The TPM requirement rules out 99 percent of non-enterprise computers.

 

[Chewy509]

The TPM requirement rules out 99 percent of non-enterprise computers.

I don't think it's that bad...(It's still a high number, though)

On the Intel side of the fence most Intel chipsets post-Haswell era, have PTT in the chipset (PTT = Platform Trust Technology aka TPM). It'll be hit/miss in the early 100/200 series chipsets, but IIRC all 300, 400 and 500 series chipsets include PTT and the UEFI should expose the option to enable/disable.

On the AMD side, all Ryzen 1 and newer have TPM in the CPU (fTPM in the UEFI), and earlier chipsets for AMD may or may not have the PSP (Platform Security Processor) available with TPM...

So generally anything released in the last 3-4 years should be fine, with most DIY builders simply having to turn on PTT/fTPM in the UEFI. But for the DIY market, even if the CPU/chipset have TPM functionality, it may not be available in the UEFI to be enabled...

Intel's ARK now includes chipsets, and you see if PTT is available, eg the B560 chipset:
https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/196645/intel-b560-chipset.html (near the bottom, Intel PTT: Yes).

According to this, all AMD systems with a PSP enabled have TPM 2.0:

Full Disclosure: AMD-PSP: fTPM Remote Code Execution via crafted EK certificate

seclists.org

 

[LunarMist]

Arrrgh! I am getting a vote of no confidence from the Windows 10 in two computers. Thermopyle is not up to 2.0 level. One setup is only a month old, although the CPU is obsolete 3950X. I have an ominious feeling that 11 will be like the Google phones spying on you and witholding your opportunities. By 2025 we may be using the MACs here.

 

[Chewy509]

@LunarMist, how are you testing?

For the Windows 11 upgrade checker to work you need to ensure:

• CSM is disabled in the UEFI
• Secure Boot is enabled.
• You are booting from a drive that is GPT and using the UEFI/GPT bootloader.
• TPM enabled in the UEFI (either called TPM, fTPM, PSP or PTT)
• and the normal stuff like: 64bit CPU, 4GB RAM, 64GB+ storage.

For TPM itself use the 'tpm.msc' management console to check it's status.

 

[Chewy509]

Actually the ones that may be hit most hard by the TPM 2.0 requirement are the systems from major OEMs (Dell, HP, Lenovo), as often these systems have very limited options in the UEFI interface, and I would suspect that TPM is hard disabled on products targeted for home users, as TPM was often an Enterprise only feature. (This would stop enterprises buying the home user products if they needed items like TPM, etc).

 

[LunarMist]

I was able to enable the 2.0 on one BIOS (the older, higher grade x570 mothersboard with 5950X) and passed the Win 11 checker. The 3950X on the newer x570 board still didn't accept Win 11. It only has 32GB 3600 speed RAM and two 500GB NVMe drives (one 980 Pro and one 970 Evos +) as it is a backup system, but also connected to the dual NADS by 10Gb coppers.
Anyway, I only need one Win 11 at most on that platform. By 2025 I should have a much better setup and maybe the 5950X will be the "old" backup.

 

[Chewy509]

Microsoft has released a supported processors list:

AMD: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/wi...supported/windows-11-supported-amd-processors
Intel: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/wi...pported/windows-11-supported-intel-processors

So basically Zen+ and newer and Intel 8000-series and newer.

Don't know if these are hard limits, or just the list of what they officially support and anything outside this list is YMMV.

More info: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/06/heres-what-youll-need-to-upgrade-to-windows-11/

 

[Mercutio]

I'm at about 1 for 3 on systems I support. I have an awful, awful lot of 5/6/7th-gen Intel CPUs floating around and I've historically used CSM boot simply because that's what my disk images have always been. At least that's a relatively straightforward fix. I'm going to have to talk to customers about replacing computers by the fleet.

My hope is that once Microsoft either backs down on the CPU support or that we get a workaround to get 11 installed on systems that shouldn't be able to run it.

 

[Mercutio]

Ars seems to think that the TPM and CPU requirements aren't as scary as they sound, but apparently people with older Core i9 systems are being told they're incompatible from the PC Health Check application.

 

[Mercutio]

Anyway, I only need one Win 11 at most on that platform. By 2025 I should have a much better setup and maybe the 5950X will be the "old" backup.

You're a big Adobe-whatever user, right? If you're on one of their subscription plans, chances are pretty good they'll force you to upgrade before too terribly long. IIRC Adobe CS dropped Windows 8 all the way back in 2018. The upgrade might be forced upon you earlier than you might like.

Meanwhile, Capture One still works on Windows 8 and only costs $100 if you know a college student.

 

[Chewy509]

Reading on /. it appears the Zen+ / 8th gen Intel requirement is due to new hypervisor VM CPU instructions introduced on those core architectures. (That's the main difference between those and earlier generations). If the kernel/drivers require those instructions to be available, then that's a hard limit. (similar to when windows 8.1 / windows 10 started requiring CPUs with the CMPXCHG16B, PREFETCHW, LAHF/SAHF instructions).

I wonder if Windows will run each application in it's own VM sandbox, or if this is required for Android App support?

 

[Chewy509]

Ars seems to think that the TPM and CPU requirements aren't as scary as they sound, but apparently people with older Core i9 systems are being told they're incompatible from the PC Health Check application.

Similar for people running older Xeon based systems... (Older 6 and 8 core Xeons and X99 based boards are super cheap on the second hand market).

 

[LunarMist]

You're a big Adobe-whatever user, right? If you're on one of their subscription plans, chances are pretty good they'll force you to upgrade before too terribly long. IIRC Adobe CS dropped Windows 8 all the way back in 2018. The upgrade might be forced upon you earlier than you might like.

Meanwhile, Capture One still works on Windows 8 and only costs $100 if you know a college student.

You must be confusing me with that radio dude. I have older perpetual PS versions that ran on Win 7 and also on Win 10. I use OEM Canon or Nikon software for conversions/focus compositing, then PTGui and some other finishing work in PS. I tried DXO and C1 for my Sony, due to the crapitude of their software. Results from DXO seem better, but they are not always up to date on Canon lens profiles like the DPP DLO function.

 

[LunarMist]

Microsoft has released a supported processors list:

AMD: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/wi...supported/windows-11-supported-amd-processors
Intel: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/wi...pported/windows-11-supported-intel-processors

So basically Zen+ and newer and Intel 8000-series and newer.

Don't know if these are hard limits, or just the list of what they officially support and anything outside this list is YMMV.

More info: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/06/heres-what-youll-need-to-upgrade-to-windows-11/

Yet what diabolicals will they unleash for future processors? For example will 12th gen iNtel or the next (7000?) Ryzens only work with Windows 11? That could be disastrous if 11 will no longer support some of my old programs that are no longer in existence.

 

[LunarMist]

I was able to enable the 2.0 on one BIOS (the older, higher grade x570 mothersboard with 5950X) and passed the Win 11 checker. The 3950X on the newer x570 board still didn't accept Win 11. It only has 32GB 3600 speed RAM and two 500GB NVMe drives (one 980 Pro and one 970 Evos +) as it is a backup system, but also connected to the dual NADS by 10Gb coppers.
Anyway, I only need one Win 11 at most on that platform. By 2025 I should have a much better setup and maybe the 5950X will be the "old" backup.

I was finally able to upgrade the BIAS and enable the 2.0. Now the secondary is fit for Windows 11, not that it will likely be around in 2025.

 

[Mercutio]

There was a definitely barrier to compatibility with Ryzen and Windows 7, in that not many people would have the technical knowledge to integrate the chipset and USB drivers into the install media for it to be functional from the installer.

I suspect Microsoft won't be happy until everyone is paying for Microsoft 365 but they may be willing to trade the income from Windows licenses for home users to get there.

 

[LunarMist]

There was a definitely barrier to compatibility with Ryzen and Windows 7, in that not many people would have the technical knowledge to integrate the chipset and USB drivers into the install media for it to be functional from the installer.

I suspect Microsoft won't be happy until everyone is paying for Microsoft 365 but they may be willing to trade the income from Windows licenses for home users to get there.

IIRC all new CPUs after January 2017 (e.g., Intel 7 series) were crippled so that would not naturally work with anything but 10. Won't they do the same with 11?

I don't see the relevance of MS Office or whatver is in 365 now, or is that a requirement to insatll the WINDOWS now?

 

[Mercutio]

Windows 10, in its latest update, prompts users to sign up for Microsoft 365 for systems that aren't on a Domain. If people do that, or assume they have to, that's a de facto $100 annual subscription cost.

 

[Chewy509]

IIRC all new CPUs after January 2017 (e.g., Intel 7 series) were crippled so that would not naturally work with anything but 10. Won't they do the same with 11?

Yes absolutely, both Intel and AMD (and all other manufacturers) would not release drivers for operating systems that are EOL. Do you expect any manufacturer to release drivers for say Windows 7, for new devices released in 2021? I wouldn't, especially for core drivers like chipset drivers, GPU drivers, etc.

Same will occur when Windows 10 reaches EOL status in 4 years time. I would not expect any manufacturer to release drivers for new hardware for EOL operating systems.

I don't see the relevance of MS Office or whatver is in 365 now, or is that a requirement to insatll the WINDOWS now?

MS are pushing hard for subscription services on all platforms. However they would need to trend very carefully in respect to consumer laws in each country if pushing paid subscriptions by stealth. But no, Microsoft 365 is not a requirement for Windows 11.

Users of Windows 11 Home edition will not longer be allowed to create "local accounts" (which IMO is BS), and are required to sign into their local system with a Microsoft Account, but that's mainly for Microsoft Store access and free-tier service access (like OneDrive), but that's currently unrelated to other paid subscription services like Microsoft 365 (aka Office 365).

 

[LunarMist]

I accept needing Win 11 in 2025, but will a 12th generation Intel desktop CPU/chipset released in 2022 also require Windows 11?

If I understand correctly I'd have to buy Windows 11 pro and reinstall on a laptop that was desiged for the 11 homer to use remotely and never with internet. I'm definitely not onboard with any internet connectivity requirement other than for a few seconds to activate Windows the first time. I'm currently using the thumb-drive retail versions of Win 10 on the 3950x and 5950x computers and have not been forced to have any accounts.

 

[Mercutio]

Windows 10, since the 1904 version, has attempted to railroad users into creating Microsoft accounts. If your PC is connected to the internet, you're forced to make an account. Users used to be able to skip that step, but now the only way to get past it is to not have a PC connected to the internet during the OOBE (out of box / end of setup) process. I imagine that it'll work the same way on 11.

Microsoft has something like 14 different ways to create "Microsoft Accounts", and sometimes those accounts are not fully federated with each other; it's possible to have two accounts created with different passwords and have both of them work depending on the context where they're used. I've had one since the dawn of time because I'm a Microsoft Certified Professional, but you can also acquire one through the Microsoft Store, (say, because you bought a stand-alone copy of Office) via one of the email services (Hotmail, Live or Outlook.com), through Xbox, through Azure. Even worse, the accounts can be tied to any email address. Even worse than THAT, some users will get put into Windows Hello, whereupon Microsoft will later lose their info, so their PIN, fingerprint or facial recognition data stops working until they can sign in with a password. Which they might not remember if they've been using their PIN or fingerprint for months or years. And a lot of older people especially will "add a phone number" to their account that is a land line, which Microsoft will never, ever try to call, only SMS. If you don't know your password, Microsoft will ask for contacts, calendar info or email subjects, but how many people use the built in tools on their Windows PC? It's my experience that if someone doesn't have that stuff, Microsoft will tell them to reset their PC. Microsoft authentication is a goddamned nightmare.

For now, it's still possible to boot up in Linux and use a tool to blank a user's password, even for a Microsoft account, but that's increasingly painful and suspect on new systems since most of the tools that can do this don't have signed boot loaders.

 

[LunarMist]

I don't want any computer accounts. I suspect 10 will become 11 without it or they can just not update my PC, which would be fine.
I always provide the home phone when a number is needed. However, only a few real people use it.
I surely don't want another stupid password just to get into my own personal computer. What's wrong with the regular password method that Windows has had since XP or NT?

 

[Chewy509]

I accept needing Win 11 in 2025, but will a 12th generation Intel desktop CPU/chipset released in 2022 also require Windows 11?

I doubt it. Major OEMs wouldn't be able to sell new systems if that were a requirement, especially to government/corporations/education sector all who traditionally are slow to move to new OS/Applications for various reasons.

 

[Mercutio]

Going along with the idea of paying for a subscription to use Windows, it sounds like they're rolling out cloud access to a personal Windows VM as part of Windows 11.

Microsoft charges just a hair under $200 a month if you want to have a small Azure federated Active Directory, so it'll be interesting to see what they think a functional Windows desktop is worth.

 

[LunarMist]

MS cannot even get the TEAMs to work right. One day we had like 35 people and the stupid system was down. It must have cost more than $50K in lost productivity and opportunity. I would not trust those MS bozos with a 50GB online OS/app VMs any day.

 

[Chewy509]

Apparently the current Windows 11 beta release can be broken due to a bad ad?

The fact that the shell reaches out to a cloud service to operate just screams possible malware vector.

Microsoft reportedly broke Windows 11 by injecting ads

A new Windows 11 Insider Preview was recently released, and there were Start Menu and taskbar crashing issues caused by Microsoft ads.

www.xda-developers.com

Why can an ad break the Windows 11 desktop and taskbar?

A new promo message for Microsoft Teams broke the Windows desktop shell and the taskbar for Windows 11 Insider users. Why can cloud services break Windows PCs?

www.ctrl.blog

 

[jtr1962]

What ever happened to "Windows 10 was supposed to be the last version of Windows ever?" Still using 7 and I have zero desire or need to upgrade.

 

[Mercutio]

What ever happened to "Windows 10 was supposed to be the last version of Windows ever?" Still using 7 and I have zero desire or need to upgrade.

I think that's basically marketing.
Windows 7 is fine in the same way that XP was fine even after the release of Windows 8. Things haven't changed all that much aside from the regular shuffle of features that used to be in Control Panel that now get moved around the various Settings menus. The biggest problem we run in to now is the number of things that no longer work on Windows 7, including Office 2019 / 365.
You can still upgrade 7 to 10 if you want. You just run the upgrade assistant.

If you aren't using any software that requires an upgrade, that's great, but at some point web browsers and security software will reach the point where they won't run, just as they did for XP.

 

[jtr1962]

I doubt I'll have any software in the near future which requires 10 to run on. Also, if I upgrade to 10 don't I lose all my settings and software installations? Last thing I want to do is start over from scratch.

My current setup can dual boot to XP. Haven't used XP in a while but I'm curious if Chrome still works. That said, I'll be cleaning up a mess in the basement from Ida for a while so last thing care about at this stage is my operating system.

 

[LunarMist]

A lot of software requires 10 or at least 8.1. It will only get worse when 11 is out. IIRC Intel 6th gen and 200 series chipset was the last to run Win 7 naturally, without hacking on the drivers, etc. Are you happy with using old hardware with 7 forever?

 

[jtr1962]

Are you happy with using old hardware with 7 forever?

Right now I'm running an A10-7870K that's roughly 5 years old. I was running an Athlon XP3000 with Windows XP well into the 2010s. By that point it was well north of 10 years from state-of-the art. Any newer hardware should age even more gracefully given that processors have gotten faster than the needs of most software. Integrated GPUs are powerful enough at this stage for 99% of users. The one I have isn't state of the art, but it's fine for my uses.

My point is if there's perhaps some need for something much faster in the future which requires whatever the newest Windows OS is I can just build a new box, install Windows, and use that machine for my more critical needs. I can continue to use my current machine for everything else. If need be I can use older versions of web browsers which still work with 7. Worst case some features of some websites won't work.

 

[Mercutio]

My current setup can dual boot to XP. Haven't used XP in a while but I'm curious if Chrome still works. That said, I'll be cleaning up a mess in the basement from Ida for a while so last thing care about at this stage is my operating system.

If you had it installed, it auto-upgrades to the last compatible version. I still have to deal with a couple SBS 2003 systems. The net result from doing that is that you'll get "Hey, you REALLY need to update your Chrome" in a lot of places you visit. I'm not entirely sure you can fresh install Chrome on XP any more.

Also, if I upgrade to 10 don't I lose all my settings and software installations? Last thing I want to do is start over from scratch.

You do not. It's painless. You might lose software if it doesn't work with 10, but for example I've seen a Steam Library come out the other side of a 7 to 10 upgrade.
If you're worried about privacy stuff, please know that Microsoft back-ported almost all the telemetry BS to 7.
10 DOES have a smoother update process, so long as you let it do the semiannual upgrades like a good egg.
The biggest annoyance really is just things moving around in the Settings Menu.
Oh, and you get the Win + X shortcut, which makes using the Windows GUI without a mouse much easier.

 

[fb]

Regarding menus in 10, I just write things in the search bar and select the top item in the search result.
It is probably just me, but I find it annoying that some things are in the new UI and some in the Classic.
We'll see what 11 brings.

 

[LunarMist]

I missed the removal of Help in some old 32-bit programs that otherwise run fine from XP to 7. In the MS mentality, built-in Help is a high security risk whereas going online is not. Depending on your hardware, you may also lose printer or scanner functionality if the product maker does not have a Win 10 driver. Sometimes the default Win 10 printer/scanner will work, but with very crude options. Hamrick Vuescan keeps older scanners functional and relevant in 10. I'm hoping that 11 does not remove anything else.

 

[jtr1962]

I missed the removal of Help in some old 32-bit programs that otherwise run fine from XP to 7.

That's really the thing I missed the most when I went to 7. That and the fact some 16-bit Windows programs no longer ran under 7. In fact, running those programs is really the only time I boot into XP.