Windows 7 nonsense

[Chewy509]

Until MS gives business a compelling reason to upgrade they are very unlikely to do so.

Especially when you factor is cost of OS vs cost of business systems. When some business systems are several orders of magnitude more in cost than the OS it runs on, most companies will tend to side with the business system requirements vs what Microsoft wants them to do...

 

[Fushigi]

Well, keep in mind the cost of the Vista is a sunk cost for new machines. So while I've never supported upgrading the existing client systems to Vista I've no problem with letting Vista, now Win7, take over as machines are replaced. Yes, IT has the burden of supporting both the old & new OSes, and there will be a cost associated with that, but it is an option.

And as to what Chewy is saying, that is a good point. Companies buy computers for the applications. The OS decision is secondary and by and large is determined by what OSes the app will run on. That said, a business should never run on a platform for which there is no vendor support. The support doesn't have to come from the OS vendor, but it should be available from someone.

Merc, I smell a business opportunity for you. Set up your own VM server running XP & Win98 images and let people remote in to run their vertical apps.

 

[CougTek]

Ultimately, I think it's the 4GB RAM limit of Windows XP that will finally push people and businesses to drop Windows XP. If it wouldn't be of that limit, I would not have sold a single Vista license yet, two and a half years after its release.

 

[Mercutio]

Merc, I smell a business opportunity for you. Set up your own VM server running XP & Win98 images and let people remote in to run their vertical apps.

Oh how I wish. Cloud applications are a trend that has not made it to Northwest Indiana yet.

 

[ddrueding]

I've already made the decision that XP will be the last MS OS at my company. Every new app must:

1. Run in the cloud through a hosted service compatible with Firefox.
2. Support running locally on a LAMP server as a backup.
3. Ship me hard copies of our data regularly as a backup.

Our two biggest vertical apps have already agreed to go in this direction. Unfortunately, Google Apps only manages #1. Any tips on that would be appreciated.

 

[Mercutio]

Google Apps only manages #1. Any tips on that would be appreciated.

You could run local copies of any mail client and download each user's mail someplace. Outlook Express, say. Or Thunderbird.

There's a very simple *nix app called fetchmail that could deliver each of your users' E-mails to a local Linux mail server, if you know each user's Gmail password. You could poll their mailboxes a few times per hour and thereby have a local copy in a standard file format that's centralized in one place.

Of course that might not be practical.

 

[sechs]

Ultimately, I think it's the 4GB RAM limit of Windows XP that will finally push people and businesses to drop Windows XP.

Or to complain that they can't get licenses for XP x64....

 

[sechs]

There's a very simple *nix app called fetchmail that could deliver each of your users' E-mails to a local Linux mail server, if you know each user's Gmail password.

Security? We don't need no stinkin' security!

It would make more sense if the local back-up was really the front-end server, standing between Gmail and the user's application. But that would be a bit complicated.

 

[Mercutio]

Security? We don't need no stinkin' security!

At least one company I work for mandates that I set all passwords for every user to the same thing. The guy who owns the business wants free reign to check in on anything his employees might be doing and that's more important to him than external security.

Yes, he's nuts.

In a non-psychotic setting it wouldn't be completely out of line for someone to say "Come here and type in your mail password in this one file so we can back up your hosted E-mail."

 

[sechs]

I have some friends in Romania that might be interested in knowing who this guy is....

 

[ddrueding]

I have a number of clients that keep a list of everyone's passwords. Hard copy only, in the boss' safe. I think that is good enough.

Here I've gone a different way. No-one knows any other passwords but their own, and every person can change their password any time they want. There are no complexity requirements, but I take a couple guesses at accounts at random from time to time. Of course, I have the ability to reset any password and log in whenever I like, but they know about it.

 

[LunarMist]

At least one company I work for mandates that I set all passwords for every user to the same thing. The guy who owns the business wants free reign to check in on anything his employees might be doing and that's more important to him than external security.

Yes, he's nuts.

That is crazy. Many of the sytems we have validated are designed so that no admin can ever know the user's account password. They can add, deactivate, reactivate and archive user accounts, or force a password reset when a user logs in, but that's about it. There are legal and regulatory requirements in the 21st century. Failing an audit or deliberate fraud, such as logging in as a different user, can cost big $$$.

 

[MaxBurn]

OK looks like the time is here. I have a legit copy of win7 home premium upgrade on the way I will likely get around the 25th but I would like to have a go at it now and just enter the key later when I get the box. I think the problem now is that with upgrade I need to install and activate XP for it to see before I can do a clean install, right? Is there no work around for this yet? I am currently on the win7 eval, pretty sure that isn't an upgrade path.

 

[Bozo]

It's my understanding that you can't upgrade from XP, only from Vista. Don't know what effect that might have on doing a clean install from the upgrade disc though.

 

[P5-133XL]

I have not done it yet, but I believe that you do not need an operational XP install, rather you need an original XP CD which it will ask for. I don't believe Windows 7 upgrade actually upgrades an XP install, rather it becomes a wipe and replace scenario.

If you search the web, there are several not recommended algorithms to actually do a Windows 7 upgrade of an XP install typically involving a Vista upgrade followed by a Windows 7 upgrade. You can also use a Windows transfer wizard but that won't keep your installed applications.

 

[MaxBurn]

Ah, let me clarify. I want a clean install of win7 but the product I have for win7 is an upgrade (that early $50 deal) so I am thinking I am simply not allowed to wipe the drive and start fresh but that would be really nice if I could.

I am looking for tricks like there was for vista in installing without a key and doing some command line stuff to change key and then register it. From what I have heard the same stuff doesn't work and win7 upgrade needs to see an activated copy of windows whatever to upgrade from.

I have legit copies of XP x64 OEM and Vista home premium upgrade to play with. I am actually using the eval win7 at the moment though. Installing either and getting it activated represents so I can upgrade from it represents extra work I want to learn how to avoid.

 

[Mercutio]

In Vista, the Upgrade disc could be used for a clean install. You could install Vista as a custom install without a product key and then use the upgrade disc to "upgrade" to the Vista for which you actually had a product key.

I actually expect this trick will work in 7 as well, since 7 can still be installed without a product key.

 

[MaxBurn]

Hmm, it occurs to me no one may know yet because the MSDN etc that are out aren't upgrade products.

Merc, I think they closed that loophole, win7 upgrade needs to see a valid and activated OS before it will allow a clean install:

http://community.winsupersite.com/b...upgrade-media-how-does-that-work-exactly.aspx

 

[MaxBurn]

Hmm, now this is unconfirmed rumor-mill stuff but it makes sense in an odd sort of "legalistic" way. The upgrade license depends on what you are upgrading. So if I upgrade my OEM XP I end with OEM win7, or if I upgrade my Retail Upgrade Vista I end up with Retail win7. Hopefully they don't start enforcing this stuff but I think I will be using my Retail product to upgrade from just in case.

I am already going to be waiting a good week after release due to work, hopefully all these questions get answered.

 

[P5-133XL]

I'm pretty sure that the version of Win 7 used determines the OEM vs. Retail status rather than the status of the previous OS. Especially since Win 7 does not upgrade Win XP directly but rather it simply wipes the drive and installs clean.

 

[Bozo]

Especially since Win 7 does not upgrade Win XP directly but rather it simply wipes the drive and installs clean.

Now you know why Windows 7 is just considered a service pack for Vista.

 

[MaxBurn]

Well today's the day. Appears that Newegg shipped preorders a day early and I will have mine tomorrow. Unlikely that I will do anything with it for a couple weeks as I am out of the country but I will be searching for answers to my upgrade questions in the meantime.

 

[Mercutio]

October 22, 9:39AM: I get my first support call from someone trying to upgrade XP to Windows 7.

 

[Will Rickards]

Mine is supposed to be delivered today from newegg according to the tracking.
Guess I know what I'll be doing this weekend (aside from looking at used cars).

 

[MaxBurn]

What happened Merc?

 

[Stereodude]

So has anyone sorted out the details of the XP to 7 "upgrade" yet? I realize it's really a clean install, but which XP versions can be upgraded, etc?

Also, for home use with no domains is there really a compelling reason to get Professional or Ultimate over Home Premium?

 

[Stereodude]

It looks like I can answer my own question. Home Premium can not be a Remote Desktop host. :crap:

That'd probably be the only feature I'd miss.

 

[Gilbo]

Also, for home use with no domains is there really a compelling reason to get Professional or Ultimate over Home Premium?

The ability to host a Remote Desktop isn't available on Premium. For me, that was the dealbreaker. I can't recall any other major deficiencies off-hand.

 

[Mercutio]

Being able to join a domain is pretty important if you have a domain.

I managed to get a total of three Family Packs of upgrade licenses @ $45 per license. I'm sure I'll do something useful with those.

My customer is an idiot and did not understand that "clean install" means clean install. I think all his crap is still there (I don't think the drive got formatted, in other words) but to be honest I told him he's a dumbass and I'll get to him when I get to him.

And of course he installed Home Premium over XP Pro, so there's that Domain Join feature rearing its head already.

 

[Stereodude]

Apparently hacks were released to enable Remote Desktop Host on Vista Home not too long after Vista showed up on the market. No idea if history will repeat itself.

The bottom line is getting 3 copies of Windows 7 Home Premium for $134 (Family Pack at Buy.com) is something I'd pay. Buying copies of Windows 7 Professional OEM for $135 each is not.

 

[Mercutio]

I got a set from Buy.com and two from Sam's Club. Buy.com has been sold out of Family Packs since like August.

 

[Stereodude]

Buy.com has been sold out of Family Packs since like August.

Weird, I ordered it up this morning from them for $134 shipped free. :bomb:

 

[MaxBurn]

Yeah, RDP host and XP mode would be the big ones I will miss with premium. I am coming along quite nicely with VMware though and I just guess I will have to get back into VNC.

Should be a hack coming along to enable RDP like there was in Vista.

Oh and all versions of XP qualify:
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/get/upgrade-considerations.aspx

 

[Stereodude]

Oh and all versions of XP qualify:
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/get/upgrade-considerations.aspx

Probably not XP Pro Corporate with well shared VLK keys though. wneddnce:

 

[MaxBurn]

Frigged if I know, I'm just trolling fora today to see whats up with the upgrade procedure myself. You know people will be trying to upgrade from the win7 eval, trying the double install vista trick and attempting upgrades from unactivated copies of XP/Vista.

Supposedly win2000 was an approved OS to upgrade from way back when but it got pulled a while back as an approved OS.

 

[Stereodude]

Just to clarify I've got legit licenses for all my XP boxes. I was just wondering how 7 treats XP Pro Corporate.

 

[Adcadet]

So what happens when I use the Win 7 upgrade to do a clean install onto a computer which has XP (full) and Vista (upgrade)? Will I need both my Vista and XP disks?

 

[Mercutio]

I'll let you all know how well upgrades from XP with a VLK work sometime this weekend, after I get done testing it. I have upgrade discs for Home Premium and Professional and I'll be testing those.

My preliminary reading says that the upgrades just want an activated copy of XP or Vista and that's all they check for.

 

[MaxBurn]

So what happens when I use the Win 7 upgrade to do a clean install onto a computer which has XP (full) and Vista (upgrade)? Will I need both my Vista and XP disks?

Everyone seems to be saying no previous CD/DVD media needed, as in there is no disk check at all.

 

[Stereodude]

My preliminary reading says that the upgrades just want an activated copy of XP or Vista and that's all they check for.

Right, but aren't XP Corp installs technically not activated? Or are they considered activated even though they don't go through the activation process?