Windows 8.1

[Tannin]

I know where you are coming from Mark, but I think your analogy is quite wrong. It is in fact like hiring someone to service your car and having it come back washed, polished, and vacuumed inside. (Come to think of it I do that also, sort of - give the machine a wipe over outside if it looks grotty and get rid of the dust inside.) I think that we are both doing the same thing in a sense: giving the customer what he wants and expects, and not giving him any nasty surprises!

It might be worth adding that my usual routine is to have a quick diagnostic look at the machine with the customer still in the shop. We examine it together (hardware and software side both,usually) and decide what needs doing. I like doing that because then if there is something unexpected we can deal with it - machine is unexpectedly completely dead? Not a problem, the customer has seen it too, knows it's not something bad I have done to it. Wrong user account password? I found out straight away and get the right one. Noisy PSU fan? I can suggest a replacement. Not enough RAM? Suggest an upgrade. Happy machine? Tell the customer not to worry about buying a new one, this one will do him for another couple of years. And so on. This is typically the time at which Classic Shell goes on (if it isn't there already), while the customer is still in the shop with me and before I start the major task. Or another common one is where the customer has bought a new laptop elsewhere (often with some advice from me - I generally only sell Thinkpads, so if they want something cheaper they get that at one of the big local supermarket places) and bring it in to get their documents copied over, an AV package installed, crapware removed, and generally have it set up so that it's nice to use. Since Windows 8 came along, this has become really common 'cause the interface is so bad.

People generally adapted without too much trouble to the UI degradations in W98 and then Vista/7, but they mostly flat-out reject Win8 Metro. I haven't seen so much downright hate directed at computers since ... hmmmm .... since forever. Way more than Vista, and Vista was pretty bad. The computer industry is suffering big-time 'cause people just ain't buying new hardware unless they can get it with Windows 7 or else get Metro banished and some other solution (Classic Shell, Start8, Lenovo QuickLaunch, True Launch Bar, ObjectDock, etc.) installed instead.

 

[Mercutio]

The only folks I see buying new machines right now are the ones who thought a netbook or one of those super-crappy $250-at-Wal-Mart laptops would be an acceptable primary computer. And all those people would be better off with a Nexus tablet anyway.

 

[Tannin]

I'm actually selling more machines now than I have for a while. Paradoxically, this is because of Windows 8!

The industry as a whole is suffering terribly from the triple impact of

(a) the switch to tablets and telephones and set top boxes instead of computers
(b) the hardware plateau - a four-year-old machine is (almost) just as good as a new one, so why replace it?
(c) The Windows 8 debacle. Nobody wants Windows 8, especially not on a desktop or full-size laptop.

Both (a) and (b) have been around for a while now, but although the industry was waiting and hoping for Windows 8 to come along and give it a big boost the way that Windows XP did, the delivered reality of Windows 8 has been a sales disaster. The only major to have done even half-OK has been Lenovo (now the world #1), and Lenovo has succeeded by selling Windows 7. For me, however, it's been a good time. Lots of people have been coming in to see me much the same way they did during the Vista era - they need a new PC, they have seen Windows 8 in the big shops and know how awful it is, so they come up to see me 'cause they reckon I'll be able to sell them a machine that doesn't have it. (It was the same with Vista - lots of people came to me specifically because they had heard that they could get a brand new machine running XP instead of Vista.)

The only difference is that, this time, I'm not selling them the previous, non-vomit-forming operating system. They generally ask for XP or 7 but I sell them 8. My logic is that while XP remains the most usable of them all, the 4GB RAM limit is becoming a real issue even for lighter duty cycles and the end of official support and security patches is not to far away now. I have never had much time for Windows 7, particularly the infuriating dumbed-down user interface design and the utterly stupid crippling of the Quick Launch tray - even Vista had that! I've sold 7 and supported it, but never with any enthusiasm. It never really had a great deal to recommend it apart from the fact that it wasn't Vista. Given that we have no choice but to go to a Windows version with a sub-standard UI (as compared to 98, 2K, XP and Vista) and we are going to have to fix it up ourselves, we might as well go the whole way and use the latest one. Windows 8 also offers significant speed advantages over 7; these are quite noticable and well worth having.

Summary: Metro is the UI from hell, and a disaster for users and the industry, but precisely because it is so bad, the third-party tools have blossomed and matured, and we can have the best of both worlds: a decent interface (similar to XP, or 7 if you prefer) coupled with modern hardware support and truly excellent speed and stability. Oh, and some nice sales numbers for me.

 

[LiamC]

It's not that it's failed. I don't care that it's failed or that it hasn't. It's the baseline configuration for every computer with Windows 8. The PROBLEM is that there are dozens of non-uniform replacements and overlays that are being deployed on top of it. Ultimately that's going to make new versions of Windows harder to learn and harder to support. Unfortunately, the only ways we can address that is to deal with the default UI or force the people we support to all use the same nonstandard UI configuration, thus making it harder for the next person someone asks to help them.

Or, OK, become familiar with seven or eight different shell/menu replacements and figure out some way to quickly distinguish them with little or no help from end users. I guess that's an option.

Given the sales figures, or lack of, it would appear that Windows 8 is a failure. Certainly if you measure success via Windows 7/XP. The question is why? And given the sheer number of replacement/overlay shells, then the Modern UI is not doing Win8 any favours.

Is it the default? Yes. Can I navigate it? Yes. Do people like it? It would appear not. Suck it up? No!

The Modern UI makes a lot of sense on a phone/tablet. Really. On a device that uses a keyboard/mouse as the interface, it looks exactly what it is - a shoehorned, poor second choice interface in the name of commonality. In this case it was a race to the bottom. And the bottom won. The "design decision" - hah! - to put touch screens on cheap laptops seems more a way to "justify" the Modern UI than the solving of a real input problem or a great leap forward in input design. Save me $50 by not having it. I'd rather that. And that gets me back to the Penny Arcade comic. It was spot on. Microsoft admitted that people don't like the Modern UI on the Personal Computer (as distinguished from tablets/phones). And said we fixed it. But they didn't. They sent the middle finger to their users. That always leads to good things.

The way I see it, we, as computer professionals, are going to have to learn the myriad of shell replacements (not the other way around) because a great many people don't like the Modern UI and are actively seeking a replacement to Modern. Seriously, when have people relied on replacement shells? Desqview?

 

[LiamC]

Seriously, why do we need a common UI? If you have a Windows (pre Win 8) computer and an iPhone or Android phone, did you have crippling issues dealing with UI differences? People adapt and learn. I get it that Microsoft are trying to leverage their installed base to get a leg up in the mobile space, but they are killing their installed base and the revenue steam it provides in order to make a minor dent in the mobile space. Shareholders might view this as a dubious trade-off. I think they would be better off with two excellent interfaces and a common brand rather than one really mediocre UI.

 

[Tannin]

Seriously, when have people relied on replacement shells? Desqview?

4DOS

Yep, it's been that long.

Also GEM.

Oh, and, of course, there was that other one, Winsomething. It was a replacement shell for the standard operating system of the day, which was called PC-DOS. Bill somebody (can't remember his other name) made a lot of money out of it 'cause it was nicer to use and easier to navigate than the standard OS shell and everybody bought it.

 

[Tannin]

Edit: hmmmm ... there is clearly something scewy with the site software. That's the second time in a week it has made a double post all by itself.

 

[Mercutio]

Seriously, why do we need a common UI?

It's FUCKING HUGE for training and support purposes. I don't mind not having a standard UI on *nix systems because the people using them are smart enough to figure shit out on their own and I don't think that everyone needs to be locked in to exactly the same settings for everything, but I bet every single person reading this post has had the frustrating experience of trying to talk someone through just connecting with a non-Microsoft WLAN client over the phone. And that's just one small, special-purpose app! The more widespread these replacements are, the more difficult it's going to be to step a user through doing much of anything and the harder it's going to be to demonstrate the guideposts and anchor points that are supposed to be there for less experienced users in the first place.

I suppose I wouldn't have a problem if there were some kind of agreed-upon convention for turning off the shell replacements and dealing with Windows default software but absent that we're looking at a whole new world of angry and frustrated end users whose problems are exacerbated by the shell replacements that well-meaning techies put in place so they wouldn't be so angry and frustrated. It's not going to be pretty and I can see that it's happening.

As far as the Start Screen, it's fine with a keyboard and mouse or with a finger (I think it's still better with a mouse; on my Surface Pro some of the gesture stuff is finicky), but it could be made infinitely better with just three things:
1. A visible textbox for searches. The search charm is a UI convention and it has its place, but absent that design cue almost no one realizes that they can just start typing to find something.
2. Search for more things by default. Programs, Files and Settings should all be searched from a single input. Anything else is stupid because that's how it worked in Windows 7.
3. Unify the goddamned settings. I need control panel for about 85% of the stuff I do and the Settings charm for another 15%. That's stupid and incredibly inconsistent.

I think if those things were addressed (#2 might be fixed in 8.1 from what I've read), I think it would make all the difference in the world as far as end user enthusiasm.

 

[mubs]

I've never seen / tried Win 8. But from the heated arguments and differences of opinion, it seems to me that each of you deal with different market segments and with different realities and have different perspectives. I think all of you are right in your own world, and what's right for one isn't for another. At the end of the day, your respective customer bases will decide if you're right or wrong in your approach, and to each his own.

Peace.

 

[Howell]

Seriously, why do we need a common UI?

It's FUCKING HUGE for training and support purposes.

He's talking about between desktop and phone/other.

 

[Tannin]

It's FUCKING HUGE for training and support purposes. I don't mind not having a standard UI on *nix systems because the people using them are smart enough to figure shit out on their own and I don't think that everyone needs to be locked in to exactly the same settings for everything, but I bet every single person reading this post has had the frustrating experience of trying to talk someone through just connecting with a non-Microsoft WLAN client over the phone. ..... The more widespread these replacements are, the more difficult it's going to be to step a user through doing much of anything and the harder it's going to be to demonstrate the guideposts and anchor points that are supposed to be there for less experienced users in the first place.

I suppose I wouldn't have a problem if there were some kind of agreed-upon convention for turning off the shell replacements and dealing with Windows default software but absent that we're looking at a whole new world of angry and frustrated end users whose problems are exacerbated by the shell replacements that well-meaning techies put in place so they wouldn't be so angry and frustrated. It's not going to be pretty and I can see that it's happening.

^ this is just wrong. Completely wrong.

What is so hard about saying "click START -> PROGRAMS -> (whatever)"? You've already been doing it for 18 years. My guess is that you're pretty good at it.

The shell replacements exist because they are easier to use. They make your job easier. They are already widespread and nothing on this earth is going to change that. (Well, nothing short of Microsoft getting Windows 9 right for a change. Don't bet your lunch money on it, you'll go hungry.) In reality, NOT having a proper shell replacement is your big worry, 'cause then it gets pretty ugly pretty fast. But if you are that concerned about it, learn Metro and you can use that instead if you want to.

Me, I already know everything I will ever need to know about Metro. There are only two key things to remember: (1) whatever you are doing, press <ALT-F4>. (2) Double click on "desktop". After that, just pretend it's a computer. It'll go fine.

 

[Tannin]

By the way, Microsoft just lost one billion dollars by making way too many unsalable Windows 8 tablets they couldn't sell. This Register article is worthwhile:

Surface RT: A plan worthy of the South Park Underpants Gnomes - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/07/20/surface_rt_cashing_out_while_burning_the_cash/

 

[Mercutio]

The shell replacements exist because they are easier to use.

Yes, but they are not standardized. Which means you have to figure out which of the shell replacements the user is talking about and hope you're familiar with it or else fall back on sentences like "OK, tell me everything that's on your screen right now." and "OK, what happens when you press the thingie in the corner?" and "Just press the Windows key and R on the keyboard. It's the one between CTRL and ALT on the lower left, and R, which is under the number 4 and to the left of the letter T. Now type "cmd." Like "command" but without the vowels? That didn't work? OK. Just type "command". Charlie Oscar Mike Mike Alpha November Delta. No that isn't secret computer code. You know what, never mind. I'll drive over and look at it later."

 

[ddrueding]

... "Just press the Windows key and R on the keyboard. It's the one between CTRL and ALT on the lower left, and R, which is under the number 4 and to the left of the letter T. Now type "cmd." Like "command" but without the vowels? That didn't work? OK. Just type "command". Charlie Oscar Mike Mike Alpha November Delta. No that isn't secret computer code. You know what, never mind. I'll drive over and look at it later."

Anyone here not end up doing exactly that at least once a week?

 

[P5-133XL]

Anyone here not end up doing exactly that at least once a week?

I gave up on pride and my ego a long long time ago.

 

[LunarMist]

Anyone here not end up doing exactly that at least once a week?

I don't understand what that means. All I see is a DOS command prompt. :dunno:

 

[Howell]

Remote support tools have become popular for a reason.

I have only ever seen one copy of Windows 8. I got it for Christmas and it is still in the box in the office.

 

[Mercutio]

Remote support tools have become popular for a reason.
.

Crossloop, TeamViewer and ShowmyPC are all fantastic, but they're not ideal for every circumstance because of bandwidth, security requirements or just circumstances of convenience.

 

[Tannin]

Yes, but they are not standardized.

Um, how so?

There is Classic Shell (which is on practically everything).
Then there is Start8 (which is on practically everything else).
And they BOTH work just like Windows 7 (or if you are using Classic Shell, optionally other Windows versions you know even better).

PS: there are some others, but you practically never see them. But if you do, they will work just like Windows cause they were designed to work the way people expect. (Unlike that Metro abortion.)

 

[Mercutio]

Neither Classic Shell nor Start 8 are complete matches for the Windows 7 shell and that also does not address the Start Menu replacements that big OEMs are providing.
Very often, the people who need help with using something as basic as a Windows start menu are the very people who would have the biggest problem dealing with ANY user interface, so it becomes particularly important to know exactly what you're doing. Even something as basic and obnoxious as whether "Computer" is labeled "Computer" or "My Computer" can cause problems for someone.

 

[Tea]

OK. But there is still just one thing I don't understand. If they are too dumb to click on Start -> Programs, how the farnarkle did they manage to figure out dialing your number on a telephone?

 

[ddrueding]

OK. But there is still just one thing I don't understand. If they are too dumb to click on Start -> Programs, how the farnarkle did they manage to figure out dialing your number on a telephone?

Because I programmed a speed dial icon for myself on the one remaining desktop of the smartphone? It has my picture on it and everything.

 

[LiamC]

Yes, but they are not standardized. Which means you have to figure out which of the shell replacements the user is talking about and hope you're familiar with it or else fall back on sentences like "OK, tell me everything that's on your screen right now." and "OK, what happens when you press the thingie in the corner?" and "Just press the Windows key and R on the keyboard. It's the one between CTRL and ALT on the lower left, and R, which is under the number 4 and to the left of the letter T. Now type "cmd." Like "command" but without the vowels? That didn't work? OK. Just type "command". Charlie Oscar Mike Mike Alpha November Delta. No that isn't secret computer code. You know what, never mind. I'll drive over and look at it later."

I understand your issue vis a vis support. My issue though isn't with support. Why are people turning to alternate shells, in numbers that are causing your support headaches? If there was nothing wrong with the standard interface, people wouldn't be searching out alternates in such numbers. And given that the alternates exist, Microsoft could provide a standard solution. But they won't and their 8.1 half-baked solution is a slap to their users. 8 will be the next Vista. Hell, it's market share has only just crept past Vista and Vista has been on the decline for three years. 8 will be lucky to surpass XP, and I don't think it's likely. And this despite 8 having some nice "under the hood" tech.

 

[Santilli]

Has anyone worked with the Cloud features of windows 8, on multiple platforms?

From my reading, that might be the only reason to use it.

 

[Mercutio]

Yes. When you sign in with a Microsoft account, your wallpaper and tile arrangement and crap show up just like they are on other machines. And there's Skydrive and Skydrive Pro, which are pretty much the same thing as having Dropbox or Google Drive other than the confusing fact that they're completely different spaces that are managed differently. And your Metro apps can follow your sign-in. Yay.

No, the real reason to look at Windows 8+ is performance improvements. It's fast and smooth and you'll find yourself forgiving all those weird warts it has because you know you can just ignore those parts.

 

[ddrueding]

No, the real reason to look at Windows 8+ is performance improvements. It's fast and smooth and you'll find yourself forgiving all those weird warts it has because you know you can just ignore those parts.

Exactly this. I'm even recommending it for some older computers (along with an SSD and RAM) to improve performance.

 

[Santilli]

I'm trying to figure out if it's worth buying into MSFT's integration of 8, on phone, laptop, and my home machine.

I have a very hard time believing I'd be able to notice the difference between 7 and 8 on the i7 940, home machine.

I don't think it would be compatible with the hardware in my Panasonic laptops, and the HTPC.

I'm already using the skydrive, and googles' version on my old Android phone. Just wondering if anyone likes MSFT's integration of all platforms for one OS, and what it really offers
that android doesn't.

 

[LunarMist]

You'd probably gain more by replacing the slow X-25Ms in that old machine than updating the OS.

 

[P5-133XL]

You'd probably gain more by replacing the slow X-25Ms in that old machine than updating the OS.

I question that, The perceivable difference between slower and even significantly faster SSD's is negligible. Where you notice the gain is from HD to SSD. On the other side, there is a noticeable boot-time speed increase from Win7 to Win8 (after a half dozen boots to allow Win8 to optimize boot time)

 

[Tannin]

I agree with Mark. But I'd add that the speed differences are not worth the pain of upgrading. Stay with 7. I upgraded to 8, but that was different because I was coming from XP and needed more than 4GB of RAM. Given that (a) I had to upgrade anyway, and (b) that I was going to replace the Microsoft UI anyway 'cause Win 7 is too dumbed-down for my liking, Win 8 made sense. Same interface i.e., a non-Microsoft one via Classic Shell and various other things, somewhat higher speed.

But in your case, Greg, I don't think it makes a lot of sense. Stay with 7.

 

[Santilli]

You'd probably gain more by replacing the slow X-25Ms in that old machine than updating the OS.

I agree. The drives are slow by current standards:


I think to really be able to tell any difference I would have to increase data transfer by something incredible, like this:



Be honest I can't really tell the difference between one old Vertex Turbo 3 and the X-25M's in Raid O.

How much faster is the bus on the new boards, DD in particular(try creating a ram disk and then testing it on one of your new rigs?)

After looking at this review, I guess the Vertex aren't really that bad either.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6337/samsung-ssd-840-250gb-review/6

Also looks like the 840s are currently about 100 MB/s behind my dual X-25M's.

It's kind of sad that the SSD's are so far below what the Sata 3 bus is capable of, speed wise. If I could find a single drive, that went even 2.5 GB/s
that would be worth upgrading from the X-25M's.

I really don't even think I'd be able to tell the difference between 500 MB/s and 1000 MB/s.

How much market share does Windows 8 have? How much market share for laptops(can't seem to find anything that doesn't have 8 on it: makes shopping for laptops simple, stop)
98%?

How much marketshare for Windows 8 phones?

I'm pretty sure my next phone will be a Samsung Note 2, but not for sure. Current carrier, T-Mobile offers one 8 phone, from HTC, my favorite. HTC One has no SD slot, so it's pretty much out.
I have a filled 32 GB SD card in my phone right now.

Looks like I'm staying with Android.

 

[Santilli]

One of the considerations I've had is getting a laptop with a faster processor, and to be able to take advantage of the faster SATA bus. However, with the even a IDE Kingspec SSD, the hard drive performance is fast enough so I don't think it's the bottle neck:


Ethernet speed transfers are in the 50-70 MB/s. Wouldn't mind something faster.

Problem is I don't think the newer computers would be cost effective improvement over the existing setup.

 

[ddrueding]

Work2:

 

[Santilli]

Thanks

GS

 

[LiamC]

Windows 7 44.5%
Windows XP 37.2%
Windows 8 5.4%
Windows Vista 4.24

Aug 1, 2013 11:32 AM
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2045...re-market-share-but-so-do-older-versions.html

And this despite the impetus given by being shipped on all new machines.

 

[LunarMist]

At work we will be receiving new laptops with Win 7.

 

[CougTek]

We still ship Windows 7 laptops to our employees and the only two persons who operate a Windows 8 system are the lead programmer (since last Friday) and me (and it's a Server 2012 R2, not Windows 8). We have roughly 250 employees.

 

[ddrueding]

We are 50% Win8, 20% Win7, and the rest XP (with one '98 box off network). All XP machines but one will be Win8 by the end of the year.

 

[Howell]

We are 70% XP thin client, 20% XP desktop, and 10% W7. Almost no real processing happens locally, nearly all terminal server. 600 users.

 

[Stereodude]

The company where I work is all Windows 7 now. We got it in the last year replacing XP.