Alternative Browser

LunarMist

I can't believe I'm a Fixture
Joined
Feb 1, 2003
Messages
16,691
Location
USA
Which is the best alternative to IE? I am looking for one that allows blocking of Flash and installation, pop-ups, embedded images from other sites, etc. The main thing is that I want to enable and disable these features without too much effort, since some sites require them.

Thank you.
 

CougTek

Hairy Aussie
Joined
Jan 21, 2002
Messages
8,726
Location
Québec, Québec
I currently use Mozilla 1.6b with the modern theme. All Gecko-based browser are superior to IE by a lot. They also run using less ressources than Opera 7.2x. I used to use Firebird, but the 0.7 release dates a little bit and the nightly builds are just that : nightly builds. And I prefer the modern theme of Moz to the default theme of Firebird, although I know the latter is highly customisable.

Moz blocks most pop ups by default, but addtionally, you can go into the Preferences - Advanced - Scripts and unchecking the first two elements. This way, nothing will screw up your windows. I also change the default search engine to Google and I remove the remember pwd/info options. I also check the Middle click, Ctrl+click, ... in Navigator - Tabbed browsing section of the Preferences window.
 

Tannin

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
4,448
Location
Huon Valley, Tasmania
Website
www.redhill.net.au
Mozilla: simply the best.

Me, I'm an Opera man, just because pera is different and I like different, but there ain't no doubt about it: Mozilla has gone way beyond Internet Explorer (which, for all intents and purposes, hasn't had an upgrade of any consequence since IE 5 came out five years ago and went head to head with Netscape 4.x) and even beyond the browser that started pushing the limits of the art in the first place, Opera.

Opera is cute, Firebird is promising, but nothing is in the same street as Mozilla.

(Disclaimer: I have not really used Opera 7.x. With IE 6 (or 5, depends on which machine I happen to be using), Opera 6.x (registered, of course) and Mozilla all installed and working fine, it was pretty hard to justify finding the $ for Opera 7.)
 

Tannin

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
4,448
Location
Huon Valley, Tasmania
Website
www.redhill.net.au
Ahh ... but your real question - how to block Flash and be able to enable it on those rare ocassions when it's needed? Tough question. I don't know that any browser allows that. I looked fairly hard for a solution to that problem a year or so ago (I was trying to help Tea out, she posted quite a long rant about it here somewhere) but we didn't solve it.

In the end, we adopted our current solution: uninstall Flash completely (no trivial task in itself - they try to make it impossible and keep the uninstall tool secret - bastards!), then reinstall it so that only one browser (in my case, Opera) knows about it.

I do most of my general other-site surfing with Mozilla, reserving Opera for here and the Wikipedia, IE belongs to Tea, who uses it for SF and a few other things (or used to before she left home). That way, if I find a site where I actually want to see the Flash poximation, I just go there with Opera instead of Moz.

The $64 question: how do you install Flash so that only one of your browsers knows it's there?

Ans: I can't remember, but if Tea managed it it can't have been too hard!
 

blakerwry

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Oct 12, 2002
Messages
4,203
Location
Kansas City, USA
Website
justblake.com
there's a firebird extention/plugin that allows flash only to run when you click on the flash animation.. which means those automatic annoying flash ads dont run ever.
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
21,607
Location
I am omnipresent
Fushigi said:
Ah, c'mon, what's wrong with this?

Am I missing something? I see a blank page.

I use Firebird. I'm accustomed to Mozilla, having used it for years, but one thing that no one has mentioned is the development on Moz was supposed to stop two releases ago.

Also in Firebird's favor: The UI operates noticeably faster. It has a smaller memory footprint, and it supports some extentions (particularly one called magpie) that Moz doesn't. The only thing I can say I don't like about firebird is that it doesn't have the "hooks" to thunderbird that exist between Mozilla's browser and mail applications, but I expect that an IE/OE user probably wouldn't notice or mind that.

If I'm forced to look at flash, I load IE. Neither Moz nor Firebird have Flash installed by default. I leave it that way.

I'm anti-Opera (the browser). I think it's silly to pay for a browser, especially one that crashes frequently. The Gecko browsers don't. I know there's a free version but I hate advertising, too. I don't like the UI, which is vastly different from every other graphical browser ever made. It does have strong points, I'm sure, but so does invasive surgery, and I don't want any of that, either.
 

Will Rickards WT

Learning Storage Performance
Joined
Jun 19, 2002
Messages
433
Location
Pennsylvania, USA
Website
www.willrickards.net
I thought firebird 0.7 was too buggy to use, so I switched back to 0.6.1.
But the recent nightlies have been very good. I'm currently using the 2003-12-08 nightly which would be considered Firebird 0.7+. 0.8 should be pretty stable.

If you start to use firebird as your regular browser after a while you will notice the bugs. Since firebird development is still adding features the bug reduction rate isn't as great as mozilla which is mostly in a bug fix mode.
 

LiamC

Storage Is My Life
Joined
Feb 7, 2002
Messages
2,016
Location
Canberra
I used to use Mozilla 1.1 thru 1.4 as my main, but went back to IE after a Phoenix (Firebird 0.5) install stuffed everything. So for the last year I've been using IE again. I just tried Firebird 0.7 last twelve hours or so and can say that it is a vast improvement on the Phoenix 0.5 and Mozilla 1.4. I think I'll keep it :).

Can anybody else who has Firebird and IE have a look at this site - it renders OK in Firebird, but not the same as IE

http://www.news.com.au

I just want to know if it is a rendering thing or something specific to my setup.
 

blakerwry

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Oct 12, 2002
Messages
4,203
Location
Kansas City, USA
Website
justblake.com
they render very similarly. The IE rendering has better aligned bulletted lists. In firebird the lists are spaced out too much from the margin and have to wrap some if the listed items. This causes things to get pushed down and spread apart more.


There are no major rendering differences.
 

ddrueding

Fixture
Joined
Feb 4, 2002
Messages
19,533
Location
Horsens, Denmark
LiamC said:
Can anybody else who has Firebird and IE have a look at this site - it renders OK in Firebird, but not the same as IE

http://www.news.com.au

I just want to know if it is a rendering thing or something specific to my setup.

All I can say is that it looks perfect in Firebird 0.7, considerign it's over a RDP connection.
 

e_dawg

Storage Freak
Joined
Jul 19, 2002
Messages
1,903
Location
Toronto-ish, Canada
Tannin said:
Ahh ... but your real question - how to block Flash and be able to enable it on those rare ocassions when it's needed? Tough question. I don't know that any browser allows that. I looked fairly hard for a solution to that problem a year or so ago (I was trying to help Tea out, she posted quite a long rant about it here somewhere) but we didn't solve it.

myIE2. Blocks flash, scripts, activeX, images, and pop-ups. You can toggle blocking for these individually in the Options > Download Control menu, as well as setup custom Content Filter and Pop-up Blocking lists based on URL's, domains, or file/path names with wildcards. It also has tabbed browsing and Opera-like mouse gestures.

It's definitely up there with Moz 1.5 and Opera 7.2 as the best browsers on the market. And it's freeware. I use myIE2 on my desktops and Opera 7.2 on my notebook (Opera due to its bountiful keyboard navigation features, shortcuts, and forms/password management with the Magic Wand -- hate those notebook trackpads). As good as Moz and Opera have become, nothing can touch the IE browsing engine for rendering all pages faithfully on the web and being able to access finicky sites like onlline banking sites. IE is the standard.

Get myIE2, Avant Browser (another IE replacement), Opera, and Moz here: http://www.snapfiles.com/freeware/misctools/fwbrowser.html
 

e_dawg

Storage Freak
Joined
Jul 19, 2002
Messages
1,903
Location
Toronto-ish, Canada
Silly wabbit, HTML is for kids! :)

HTML 4.0 was the "proposed" standard, but you might say most websites design for IE 6.0 with DHTML, Flash, and whatever the heck pleases the webmaster first, and if possible, W3C HTML 4.0 for standards compliant browsers like Opera and Gecko-based shells like Moz.
 

Buck

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 22, 2002
Messages
4,514
Location
Blurry.
Website
www.hlmcompany.com
e_dawg said:
Silly wabbit, HTML is for kids! :)

HTML 4.0 was the "proposed" standard, but you might say most websites design for IE 6.0 with DHTML, Flash, and whatever the heck pleases the webmaster first, and if possible, W3C HTML 4.0 for standards compliant browsers like Opera and Gecko-based shells like Moz.

Following the W3C HTML 4.01 Transitional standard, isn't that easy. For example, when using the frameset tag, W3C says the frameborder attribute is bad, yet in Firebird and Mozilla, the border will show up without that attribute (even if you use just use the border attribute instead). Yet, if you use the attribute, a border does not show up, but the W3C Schools validator passes a brick of a kidney stone. Sheesh, you'd think there validator was giving birth or something. Anyway, I think that its reasonable to use such validators with limited use, but more importantly, understand the reason of using certain tags, attributes, and values. I'm still working on that part, while trying to also implement XHTML.
 

Handruin

Administrator
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
13,741
Location
USA
From what I've read recently, if you want to follow HTML's standard, you should specify a document type in the top of your code.

Such as:
Code:
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"
   "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
 

time

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 18, 2002
Messages
4,932
Location
Brisbane, Oz
Tannin, Opera 7.2 is faster than version 6; it's just that modern hardware tend to mask the differences between browsers. It's also stable, or at least, as stable as any browser. :roll:

It even prints okay now - better than anything else IMO, and certainly better than Mozilla.

Coug, last time I looked, I couldn't see any difference in resource usage between Firebird 0.7 and Opera. On slow PCs, Opera is clearly faster for most things.

Here's a challenge: make a really big JPEG file and try to view it with different browsers. Opera kills everything until you use scaling, which slows it to a snail's pace. Mind you, at least you can scale to any size you want.

Anyone who doesn't think Opera is worth money doesn't know how to use it properly or doesn't value their time or surfing experience.

I use Firebird to access bank sites, and that's about it. I was recently confronted with IE at a client's site. It drove me around the twist after only a few days - you people who stick with it really have far more patience than me! I downloaded Firebird and tried to convince myself (yet again) that it was fast and neat, but it's still obviously an alpha product.

Mind you, compared to IE it's great, but it's nowhere near the level of usability that Opera 7.23 offers.

BTW, Mozilla's mail client is only slightly more powerful than Outlook Express. And 'Thunderbird' is a joke - you're looking at years of development at this rate. That's not to say that Opera's M2 mail client is anything other than dreck. :-?

As for Merc's puerile comments about Opera's interface ... good grief! You need to get out more, my friend. You're starting to sound like honold. :p
 

Handruin

Administrator
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
13,741
Location
USA
I've never had any significant (or insignificant) problems with IE 6.0. I don't understand why people dislike it so much. I find with mozilla, firebird and Opera that they never seem to look or function as well on websites compared to IE 6.0.

Feel free to say it's highly insecure...I'm not that concerned.
 

Buck

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 22, 2002
Messages
4,514
Location
Blurry.
Website
www.hlmcompany.com
Handruin said:
I've never had any significant (or insignificant) problems with IE 6.0. I don't understand why people dislike it so much. I find with mozilla, firebird and Opera that they never seem to look or function as well on websites compared to IE 6.0.

Feel free to say it's highly insecure...I'm not that concerned.

Unfortunately, I must agree with you Handy. No, not because I don't want to agree with you personally, but because it is true. Yet the truth is based on how people code websites. They are usually written and tested with IE, with no consideration given to Gecko based or Opera browsers (let alone any standards). Internet Explorer interprets code differently then defined by the W3C in some instances. Hence, if you code with IE as your guide, when you switch over to browsers that adhere more strictly to the rules, you get issues. I know you already know this (you are a webmeister), but I thought it was worth mentioning. Thus, I find it prudent to at least code with IE, Firebird, and Opera as my guides. Plus I'll use the W3C Schools validator, but I've already mentioned how I feel about that utility at times.
 

Buck

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 22, 2002
Messages
4,514
Location
Blurry.
Website
www.hlmcompany.com
Handruin said:
From what I've read recently, if you want to follow HTML's standard, you should specify a document type in the top of your code.

Such as:
Code:
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"
   "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">


Yes, but I prefer transitional versus strict. Also, for my personal website, I use:
Code:
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Frameset//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/frameset.dtd">

... as it uses frames.
 

Handruin

Administrator
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
13,741
Location
USA
Buck said:
Handruin said:
I've never had any significant (or insignificant) problems with IE 6.0. I don't understand why people dislike it so much. I find with mozilla, firebird and Opera that they never seem to look or function as well on websites compared to IE 6.0.

Feel free to say it's highly insecure...I'm not that concerned.

Unfortunately, I must agree with you Handy. No, not because I don't want to agree with you personally, but because it is true. Yet the truth is based on how people code websites. They are usually written and tested with IE, with no consideration given to Gecko based or Opera browsers (let alone any standards). Internet Explorer interprets code differently then defined by the W3C in some instances. Hence, if you code with IE as your guide, when you switch over to browsers that adhere more strictly to the rules, you get issues. I know you already know this (you are a webmeister), but I thought it was worth mentioning. Thus, I find it prudent to at least code with IE, Firebird, and Opera as my guides. Plus I'll use the W3C Schools validator, but I've already mentioned how I feel about that utility at times.

My pleasant user experience with IE isn't because Microsoft decides to define HTML in their own way, but rather the subtleties in the UI that make the grade. Things like tabbed browsing having really excited me. However, scrolling the page smoothly with the wheel mouse are very convenient for me. (especially clicking the wheel and dragging) Firebird and mozilla suck at it. (more-so firebird than moz) I like to zip down to the bottom of the page, and I can do that at a rapid speed with IE using the scroll wheel. I also find IE to be faster at loading pages, along with faster at loading. I know it's roots are closer to the OS which may be an unfair advantage. (some will say disadvantage.)

I don't even consider Opera because it eats up too much screen real-estate with the advertisements. I don't want to pay for their web browser.
 

CougTek

Hairy Aussie
Joined
Jan 21, 2002
Messages
8,726
Location
Québec, Québec
Handruin said:
However, scrolling the page smoothly with the wheel mouse are very convenient for me. (especially clicking the wheel and dragging) Firebird and mozilla suck at it. (more-so firebird than moz) I like to zip down to the bottom of the page, and I can do that at a rapid speed with IE using the scroll wheel
I never use that function, but I've just tried under a dev. build of Firebird and it worked as expected. Been from one end of the thread to the other in no time. Doesn't qualify for "sucking" to me.
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
21,607
Location
I am omnipresent
Personally I like UI subtleties like a progress bar that actually indicates progress. But maybe that's just me.

I like the fact that with Moz/Firebird, I can define the scrollwheel to do a whole page at a time (let's talk about zippy!) or just a certain number of lines of text. Very handy. Smooth scrolling is a project at MozDev, if you're into that sort of thing.

Actually the simple fact that there is such a thing as Mozdev is a compelling argument for Gecko browsers.

time, I'm more than aware of the full feature set of Opera. The UI is still broken and awful, it still costs money, and it crashes often enough that I need to complain about it. IE doesn't crash. Gecko browsers don't crash. Konq doesn't crash.

Now, if Opera were actually free, I don't think I'd have a serious objection to it. It'd just be one more third-string browser like Konq. It isn't, and that is in my opinion simply galling.
 

time

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 18, 2002
Messages
4,932
Location
Brisbane, Oz
Handy, you should try the smooth scrolling on Opera 7.2. It's far smoother than IE, at least on the system here I just compared them on. This is at least in part because it renders faster and thereby has less flicker.

There's also no overshoot with normal wheel scrolling like there is with IE. You should try using IE with a remote control connection - it's no fun. :(

Opera also has mouse gestures if you're really obsessive about staying glued to your mouse. Myself, I tend to just grab the scroll bar and drag it to the bottom or top as required. I reckon I can do this faster than your preferred 'autoscroll' technique (which has been around in Logitech mouse drivers and software such as WordPerfect for several years).

But really, the sensible way to get to the bottom of the page is to cast your eyes downward and guide your pinky towards the button marked 'End'. :)

Speed differences between browsers are increasingly masked as PCs get faster. It's a little more obvious if you compare them on say, a Celeron 433. ;) At this point in time, my tests show Opera 7.2 is the fastest at rendering graphics, with Firebird/Mozilla next and IE a distant third. However, the aspect of responsiveness that I really appreciate is the speed with which Opera can step back through my browsing path.

Anyone who has used Opera 7.2 on this forum will have noticed the extra navigation bar that includes the ability to walk the threads. On any site, you can jump straight back to your entry point with a single click.

The built-in download manager works really well. One of my daughters is an IE fan, but has realized the error of her ways and uses Opera just for her media downloads.

The bookmark and history managers are great. In addition, you can remove all traces of your activity in seconds. Cookie management is excellent, and the popup suppression is smarter than Mozilla's.

If you're fast (by definition you prefer a keyboard to a mouse) or are stuck on a laptop with a stupid touchpad, there's no question Opera will save you time and hassle. Want to jump to the URL input field? Press F8. Cycle through your windows with Ctrl-Tab. Zoom the entire window contents larger or smaller instantly with the + and - keys.

There's stacks of genuinely useful features. One of my absolute favourites is the built-in Google searching. If I'm typing this post with IE and want to quickly look something up, my fastest course is to press Ctrl-N, wait (because it thinks I want to duplicate the page!), move my hand to the mouse and click a link to Google (if I wanted to type in a new URL, I have to click in the URL locator field because IE moves focus to the page :x ). I then type in my search expression (say, "Epox capacitors") and hit Enter.

In Opera, I press Ctrl-N, type "g Epox capacitors" and hit Enter.

As for Mercutio's comments ...

If you're going to make a big noise, make sure you know what you're talking about. I'm not claiming to be by any means perfect in this regard, but if I make strong assertions, it usually means that I've spent considerable time on the topic at some stage and am prepared to back up what I say. :p

Opera introduced a new rendering engine in version 7. Teething problems were bad and I am on record as condemning it as alpha software. It now looks seriously stable; no-one here can remember a crash for months. And by God, IE certainly does crash - so do all browsers - just fairly infrequently these days. And I seem to recall everyone having sport several months ago with a simple line of HTML that consistently crunched Microsoft's finest. This has happened to every product and will no doubt happen again, particularly with the abominable quality of many plugins such as the fetid Flash family.

On the other hand, the frequent crashes in Opera 5 a couple of years ago inspired the authors to add an automatic recovery feature that is still very useful today when either Windows or your hardware is unstable. ;)

I can't see anything wrong with the user interface. You say it's broken - that's a strong claim. Let's have details, not vague noises. 8)

Finally, contrary to what some here seem to be implying, IE does not render everything on the web correctly. A quick example would be Oracle's online knowledgebase, which also causes Exploder to throw an error when loading each page. Sorry, I can't show you because it's only accessible to paid-up customers. :-?
 

blakerwry

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Oct 12, 2002
Messages
4,203
Location
Kansas City, USA
Website
justblake.com
Just to add, I noticed IE is significantly slower on my p200 MMX laptop... esp during scrolling (smooth or non) Firebird runs much better. Havent tried opera.
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
21,607
Location
I am omnipresent
*Every other graphical browser* has the buttons for Back, Forward, Reload, Home, and Location as the first Stop anchored to the top left corner of the program Window. Every single one. Opera doesn't do that, instead anchoring a location bar and stop to individual child Windows. This is obnoxious and stupid, in my opinion, because it breaks with user expectations of what a browser should look like.

Now, I do most of my gross browsing with keyboard shortcuts (by the way, Moz and IE both use f6 to move to the location bar), but that sort of thing would drive me insane if I did everything with a mouse. Since Forward and Reload obviously apply to whatever the hell the active Window is, why shouldn't Stop? Why waste the screen real estate with all those location bars?

time, with the combination of javascript controls and the Moz/Firebird popup manager, I never, ever see popups. Gecko Browsers also have image permissions. It gives my actual pleasure to click "Block Images from Server" whenever an ad manages to get through my defenses. Can Opera do that?

Firebird also has smart keywords: Type "google storageforum" to see what you'll get. If you really want to you can customize or add new ones. On my browsers, I set the keyword to g as well: g = "http://www.google.com/search?q=%s&btnG=Google+Search", where %s is the search term. I set a custom one for IMDB as imdb with the URL "http://www.imdb.com/find?tt=on;nm=on;mx=20;q=%s" (again, %s is the search term).

Firebird's text zoom is done with CTRL+ or CTRL- (or CTRLmousewheel, if you like).

Finally, if there's anything you'd like Firebird to do, that it doesn't, the lists of tiny, useful add-ons at mozdev.org and Texturizer will be enough to make you weep. Mouse gestures (which I don't like), a sorting download manager, a post-it-note feature, highlight and send to an online dictionary, even an automatic web-comic downloader are all available, not to mention my personal favorites Linky (open all selected links in tabs) and Magpie (save tabs to a single location).
 

e_dawg

Storage Freak
Joined
Jul 19, 2002
Messages
1,903
Location
Toronto-ish, Canada
time said:
But really, the sensible way to get to the bottom of the page is to cast your eyes downward and guide your pinky towards the button marked 'End'. :)

Hallelujah! Somebody's got it. All this talk about using the scroll wheel, smooth scrolling, etc. Bah! Use the END key. The keyboard is your friend with its bountiful cursor and page directional and selecting controls. Home, End, Page Up, Page Down, and the arrow keys can be combined with Ctrl and/or Shift is better than any mouse/wheel any day of the week IMO. The less your hands have to leave the keyboard, the better -- and on a notebook, what better way to avoid the infernal trackpads and pointer sticks? Opera is the reigning king of the keyboard.

(that said, if you are willing to do a little hacking of chrome, you can configure some of your own KB shortcuts, which I did to make it feel like IE when I test drove Moz v 1.1 for a couple weeks)

(if I wanted to type in a new URL, I have to click in the URL locator field because IE moves focus to the page :x ). I then type in my search expression (say, "Epox capacitors") and hit Enter.

No, all you have to do is press Alt-D, the most useful KB shortcut of IE IMO.

In Opera, I press Ctrl-N, type "g Epox capacitors" and hit Enter.

Yes, I love Opera's search and aliasing features too. Did you know that you can have it all with IE, too? That is, using a shell based on the IE rendering engine like myIE2? You can assign g to www.google.com, so to search Epox capacitors, I would hit Alt-D, g, Enter, Epox capacitors. Enter. Done.

I also use aliases for frequently used URL's, like w for www.theweathernetwork.com, etc., sr for Storagereview.com, sf for storageforum.net, etc.

Opera introduced a new rendering engine in version 7. Teething problems were bad and I am on record as condemning it as alpha software. It now looks seriously stable; no-one here can remember a crash for months. And by God, IE certainly does crash - so do all browsers - just fairly infrequently these days.

Yes, Opera 7.2 seems relatively stable for me as well. It crashes about once every 1-2 weeks -- about the same as IE for me. I am a serious power user when it comes to browsers, though. I usually have 1-2 dozen tabs open at any one time, and sometimes 4-5 dozen when researching a project for work/class or various hobbies.

At this moment, using myIE2, I have 95 browser tabs open with all the relevant sites pertaining to domain hosts, TiVO/PVR solutions, computer retailer sites, foam mattresses, Broadway shows and hotels in NYC, vacuum cleaners, and of course, SR and SF discussion fora. It is using 253 MB of memory, 313 MB including all virtual space, and 53% CPU utilization. The high CPU utilization is due to the 40 or so out of the 95 pages that have ridiculous Flash, animated GIF's, or some other applet or script monstrosity that use a couple percent each. Anyways, I have done that with Opera as well, and find both browsers to be solid and stable enough to withstand this sort of heavy usage.

As for Opera's "broken" UI, the only problem I have with it is that it is not customizable, especially the KB shortcuts. This would remedy Merc's issue with the Opera's true MDI windowing with every child having its own nav. While it is nice that you can use any Opera browser and automatically invoke your favourite KB shortcuts, knowing they will work as usual, I prefer to assign my own shortcuts so that they're more in line with what everyone else is used to -- IE. I use IE at work and pretty much at every other computer when I'm not at home, so I am very used to IE's shortcuts -- too used to them, actually, that I sometimes have to retrain myself to use Opera when I'm using my notebook.

*Every other graphical browser* has the buttons for Back, Forward, Reload, Home, and Location as the first Stop anchored to the top left corner of the program Window. Every single one. Opera doesn't do that, instead anchoring a location bar and stop to individual child Windows. This is obnoxious and stupid, in my opinion, because it breaks with user expectations of what a browser should look like.

Now, I do most of my gross browsing with keyboard shortcuts (by the way, Moz and IE both use f6 to move to the location bar), but that sort of thing would drive me insane if I did everything with a mouse. Since Forward and Reload obviously apply to whatever the hell the active Window is, why shouldn't Stop? Why waste the screen real estate with all those location bars?

That's why people turn off the unnecessary navigation bars. Most people who use Opera are keyboard users and have little need for Back, Forward, Stop, and Refresh, buttons. You want to go back, Backspace or Alt-Left arrow like every other browser. Stop = Esc, 1/2 = previous/next tab, etc. In fact, Opera can use the least screen real estate of all browsers because you don't need any bars due to Opera's aliasing, mouse gestures, Magic Wand, page link navigation using Ctrl-Up/down arrows, and the full keyboard shortcut treatment.
 

time

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 18, 2002
Messages
4,932
Location
Brisbane, Oz
Mercutio said:
*Every other graphical browser* has the buttons for Back, Forward, Reload, Home, and Location as the first Stop anchored to the top left corner of the program Window. Every single one. Opera doesn't do that, instead anchoring a location bar and stop to individual child Windows. This is obnoxious and stupid, in my opinion, because it breaks with user expectations of what a browser should look like.
As e_dawg points out, this is an MDI (Multiple Document Interface) application, which has been a standard part of Windows since at least version 3. It makes it easier for a user to manage their desktop environment when a single app opens several client windows. Tabbed browsing is just a new wrinkle on this.

Giving each window its own URL input is less confusing when cascading and tiling these windows. You can of course turn it off (press F2 to pop up a URL locator when needed) to get maximum screen real estate.

In any case, the first question that Opera asks after installation is whether you want an MDI or SDI environment ("Pages inside window or separate windows"). Tannin has previously stated that he prefers the conventional SDI, and you can change this at any time. However, if you work with many open pages while running other applications, MDI is a lot more manageable.

Now, I do most of my gross browsing with keyboard shortcuts (by the way, Moz and IE both use f6 to move to the location bar), but that sort of thing would drive me insane if I did everything with a mouse. Since Forward and Reload obviously apply to whatever the hell the active Window is, why shouldn't Stop? Why waste the screen real estate with all those location bars?

Like just about everything else, the window-specific stop button is optional. It's actually a nice little bonus if you have more than one window visible at once. You can still use the main stop button which lives on the main bar where every other browser puts it. :roll:

However, I think you're confusing the security level indicator with a stop button. :-? Which incidentally is how I think all browsers should display security status: it's better to make it blindingly obvious that a form is not secure than only show a feeble little symbol when it is. Especially as many sites switch in and out of secure protocol depending on the page.

I was trying to keep the keyboard shortcut description brief when I mentioned F8. Unlike IE, there are also hotkeys to return to the page content, jump to the personal bar, etc. And F6 is actually the 'super-tab' function in IE that just happens to get you to the URL field if there is only one frame. You should use Alt-D as e_dawg said.

time, with the combination of javascript controls and the Moz/Firebird popup manager, I never, ever see popups. Gecko Browsers also have image permissions. It gives my actual pleasure to click "Block Images from Server" whenever an ad manages to get through my defenses. Can Opera do that?
You missed my point completely. Moz blocks all popups except those from addresses that you hard-code into it. Of course, you first have to be aware that you're not seeing these popups ...

Opera is smarter, rejecting unsolicited popups but passing legitimate ones that some websites use as a response when you click. If this proves too draconian, you can switch to keeping popups in the background or allowing them through by pressing F12, then A, O or P (a popup menu).

The reason for blocking graphics is limited bandwidth. Opera handles this better also with its Show Image toggle feature. It's possible to surf a site with graphics fully visible yet without loading any images. Selected new images can be loaded by right-clicking on their captions. My eldest daughter refuses to use any other mode.

While we're on this topic, even in full graphical mode, Opera creates less download traffic than Mozilla thanks to its configurable caching.

Firebird also has smart keywords: Type "google storageforum" to see what you'll get. If you really want to you can customize or add new ones. On my browsers, I set the keyword to g as well: g = "http://www.google.com/search?q=%s&btnG=Google+Search", where %s is the search term. I set a custom one for IMDB as imdb with the URL "http://www.imdb.com/find?tt=on;nm=on;mx=20;q=%s" (again, %s is the search term).
Congratulations! You have managed to add a standard Opera feature to another browser.

Firebird's text zoom is done with CTRL+ or CTRL- (or CTRLmousewheel, if you like).
I know. Text zoom (originally in IE) is a half-assed attempt to copy the full scaling feature that Opera has had for years. Opera 7 even adds anti-aliasing of scaled images, but you need to turn it on (Multimedia - Smooth zooming of images).

Finally, if there's anything you'd like Firebird to do, that it doesn't, the lists of tiny, useful add-ons at mozdev.org and Texturizer will be enough to make you weep. Mouse gestures (which I don't like), a sorting download manager, a post-it-note feature, highlight and send to an online dictionary, even an automatic web-comic downloader are all available, not to mention my personal favorites Linky (open all selected links in tabs) and Magpie (save tabs to a single location).
Big deal. These are all standard Opera features (except for the comics, for which I can't even grasp your point ...). As well as a dictionary, add an encylopedia and translator. How about the ability to automatically open clicked links in a linked second window? Or recover a page you closed by mistake? I *could* go on here, but I think most people will have already got the idea.

e_dawg, the UI is far more customizable than you think. Try Preferences - Mouse and keyboard - Keyboard setup and edit the 'Opera Standard' profile.

I don't think there's any question that Opera 7 has by far the most flexible interface of any browser. All it needs now is the option of placing the URL locator on the button bar, and Merc might consider raising its status to a second tier browser. :roll:
 

ddrueding

Fixture
Joined
Feb 4, 2002
Messages
19,533
Location
Horsens, Denmark
All it has to do is be free and I might consider trying it out. :roll:

Even since IE made the browser market "free", buying a web browser is as silly as...erm...charging for other things you can get for free :eekers: Sorry, mind blank...
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
21,607
Location
I am omnipresent
I believe you were trying to say that Opera users are also big on Evian, David.

I also believe the smart bookmark options were a part of Mozillar RC builds at least as far back as RC12. That's as far back as I can remember using them. Where was opera, then? Version 4, maybe? Did version 4 have an equivalent feature? 'Cause version 3 didn't.

Opera's mongloid sibling of Moz's image blocking is more of a hassle than it's worth. If I know every page is going to have the same four bandwidth-hogging images from doubleclick.net, it makes more sense to just block doubleclick.net than to wander about a page manually loading images I might like (for example, the moronic graphical smilies phpBB throws on these pages).

I don't know if you're aware of about:config (only works in Moz and Firebird, guys), but there are a lot of power-user options available in Gecko browsers which can set but which don't have a mapping in the Preferences windows.

For the rest, I think you might do well to make a trip to the two sites I linked. You can sit and post all day about the way opera's features work, but frankly, no matter what it is, it's either already built in to Firebird or can be added easily with a ~50kb download of an .xpi file, and I can do it all on a browser that doesn't cost any money, has a standard browser user interface and doesn't need 5 different recovery options for regular crashing (no, I have not used version 7. I tried version 6 shortly after it was released, and it was slightly less god-awful than 5, but that's a little like subjectively evaluating malignant tumors), since it doesn't regularly crash. Opera can be the most bandwidth efficient browser in the world, but if my options are "no images", "I'll pick what to load" or "load all", it's still missing the all-important, "just don't load images from X" that makes Moz such a joy on low-bandwidth connections.
 

time

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 18, 2002
Messages
4,932
Location
Brisbane, Oz
ddrueding said:
Even since IE made the browser market "free", buying a web browser is as silly as...
This from someone who sets fire to their money buying cigarettes? :salut:

Ever since Write made the word processor market "free", buying one is as silly as ...
Ever since Napster made the music market "free", buying a CD is as silly as ...
Ever since television made the movie market "free", going to the cinema is as silly as ...
 
Top