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blakerwry

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I can't agree with television... it's bloated with crappy content and ads ads ads.

Napster is dead... (cept for the new pay version)... write offers name of the features that are needed in a desktop publishing program, but for some reason not everyone realizes this. For more functionality there is always open office and a few other free programs with similar features.
 

CougTek

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time said:
Coug, last time I looked, I couldn't see any difference in resource usage between Firebird 0.7 and Opera.
I did a quick comparison between the development build of Firebird 0.8 I'm curently using and Opera 7.23.

I used five tabs of sites I frequently visits (eBay, SF's FAH stats page, Anandtech, Xbit-labs an Fedora Core). After about 10 minutes of browsing, doing exactly the same moves on both browsers (I cliked on a link in one and switched to the other and did the same every time), I notice that Opera has a comparable memory footprint and CPU time utilisation, except once you start to visit pages with animations (ex : http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/memory/display/20040109153051.html). When you leave the browser on the above page at X-bit and check the progress of the total CPU time used by both browsers on the task manager, it becomes obvious that Firebird does a better job to handle animations than Opera. Is it the flash pluggin that's better written for Moz than opera? I don't know. All I know is that after about 15 minutes now, while leaving one of my tabs on the X-bit page while writing this reply, Opera has eaten more than 2 minutes of my CPU while Firebird is still under 1m30s. Since I very much value my precious CPU cycles (FAH), Firebird will remain my main browser.

My system is a 2GHz athlon XP Thoroughbred on an nFarce2-based motherboard and 256MB of PC3200. Using Win2K Pro SP4. Disclaimer : I didn't brush my teeth before performing the test :p
 

CougTek

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CougTek

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And even after posting a message of similar lenght under Firebird (I posted my last understandable reply in Opera), Firebird still leads Opera for my CPU time usage (Firebird now at 2m47s, Opera at 3m35s).

Sorry for my previous very eloquent post. I was just trying to be fair...
 

time

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Mercutio said:
I also believe the smart bookmark options were a part of Mozillar RC builds at least as far back as RC12. That's as far back as I can remember using them. Where was opera, then? Version 4, maybe? Did version 4 have an equivalent feature? 'Cause version 3 didn't.
Bookmark aliases were around at least as early as Opera 3.5, which debuted in July 1998, about the time the Mozilla project started. Mozilla RC12 didn't emerge until mid 2002 (or thereabouts).

Opera's mongloid sibling of Moz's image blocking is more of a hassle than it's worth. If I know every page is going to have the same four bandwidth-hogging images from doubleclick.net, it makes more sense to just block doubleclick.net than to wander about a page manually loading images I might like (for example, the moronic graphical smilies phpBB throws on these pages).
...
Opera can be the most bandwidth efficient browser in the world, but if my options are "no images", "I'll pick what to load" or "load all", it's still missing the all-important, "just don't load images from X" that makes Moz such a joy on low-bandwidth connections.
Again, you don't understand the feature. You can load all images with Ctrl-G (just like the old Netscape). From then on, the browser keeps those cached images and doesn't pointlessly reload them or any additional images until you say so. So as you move through a site, you're only loading text. When you come back the day after, you're still only loading text. Yet most or even all of the pages display as if you were in full graphical mode.

You can toggle in and out of this 'smart image loading' mode with a single keystroke. Different windows can be set differently so that one loads all graphics and one doesn't. That's what one of the four little buttons at the top of each window is for, i.e. the ones you didn't like.

I don't know if you're aware of about:config (only works in Moz and Firebird, guys), but there are a lot of power-user options available in Gecko browsers which can set but which don't have a mapping in the Preferences windows.

You can sit and post all day about the way opera's features work, but frankly, no matter what it is, it's either already built in to Firebird or can be added easily with a ~50kb download of an .xpi file, and I can do it all on a browser that doesn't cost any money, has a standard browser user interface ...
Here's a thought - why not just use a product that already has the options and *does* make them available through the UI? Opera costs less than an hour of my time and sure as hell saves me money over your approach. In any case, I already listed several things that you can't just add to Firebird.

... and doesn't need 5 different recovery options for regular crashing (no, I have not used version 7. I tried version 6 shortly after it was released, and it was slightly less god-awful than 5, but that's a little like subjectively evaluating malignant tumors), since it doesn't regularly crash.
Look, no argument from me about version 5. And although 6 was fast, it increasingly struggled with content (and crashed with some). Like I said, they rewrote most of the product for version 7. The reality is, and you've heard it from e_dawg as well, that 7.23 is a stable product. Inserting interesting metaphors does not change the basic fact that you are blowing smoke.
 

CougTek

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time said:
Inserting interesting metaphors does not change the basic fact that you are blowing smoke.
Please, we aren't talking politics here, so let's keep it civilized.

I don't know yet for version 7.23, but 7.21 and previous certainly crashed more often (more than once a day) than my Gecko-based browsers. It's possible that it's more stable on other platforms, but on my Athlon 500MHz to Athlon XP 2400+, it was less than other browsers I've used.
 

time

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Tannin said:
Ahh ... but your real question - how to block Flash and be able to enable it on those rare ocassions when it's needed? Tough question. I don't know that any browser allows that. I looked fairly hard for a solution to that problem a year or so ago (I was trying to help Tea out, she posted quite a long rant about it here somewhere) but we didn't solve it.

The $64 question: how do you install Flash so that only one of your browsers knows it's there?
For Opera, just add NPSWF32.dll to the plugin-ignore.ini file. Yes, it *is* that simple.

If you want to be able to run with or without, you could create a batch file - linked by two different shortcuts - that copies one of two different versions of the ini file.

eg:

rem Opera.bat
if '%1'=='' goto :FLASH
copy plugin-noflash.ini plugin-ignore.ini
goto :EOF
:FLASH
copy plugin-flash.ini plugin-ignore.ini

Call the bat file with some parameter, eg. NOFLASH, in the shortcut where you want flash disabled.

Alternatively, you could keep the flash dll in its own directory and have two separate Opera.ini files, where one excludes that directory from its plugin path. Just specify the full path to each ini file as a parameter after opera.exe in the command for each shortcut.

Or, you could just use press F12 & L, which toggles plugins on or off.
 

blakerwry

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grrr... it took me 2 years to figure out why photoshop wouldn't display my brushes in presise vs standard mode per the options I had set.... I was constantly ahving to chagne the options or restart my computer. It was the stupid CAPS LOCK... RAGAGREAREGGGGG!!!@!


Ok ok... im over it...
 

time

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Coug, I tried a flash comparison like yours, but my results were 28 seconds CPU time for Firebird and 30 for Opera. I notice that just sitting on the flash site I used with nothing happening, Firebird is averaging 27% utilization on this Athlon 2400! I suspect that Flash CPU usage can sometimes be so outrageous that there may be a high degree of error when attempting to measure anything.

FWIW, Opera seemed to chew an extra 4-5 MB with the Flash crap in full cry.

When comparing stability of different versions, remember that 7.20 is the first version of a full minor release (significantly changed since the 7.1x series that probably terminated at 7.12?). 7.21 is only the first point release after that whereas 7.23 is two versions further down the track. The fact that they have issued three updates to 7.2 suggests that 7.21 may have introduced new bugs while trying to swat others.
 

Mercutio

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To continue this debate, I am the process of pirating Opera 7.23. I will use it for the next couple days and, after washing the heathen code from the sacrificial DM9+ and properly annointing it with pr0n, will report on how much I continue to hate it.
 

ddrueding

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Mercutio said:
To continue this debate, I am the process of pirating Opera 7.23. I will use it for the next couple days and, after washing the heathen code from the sacrificial DM9+ and properly annointing it with pr0n, will report on how much I continue to hate it.

Damn that's an awesome paragraph....every sentance I read made me smile a bit more.
 

time

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Merc, a couple of tips that might improve your (brief) experience:

Under: {Preferences} - {History and cache}, set 'Check images' and 'Check other' to 'Never'.

The Quick Preferences menu is best accessed by pressing [F12]. Apart from adjusting popup suppression and toggling plug-in operation, you can change Opera's ID string to Mozilla or MSIE. I recommend you set it as Opera unless you have a problem with a particular page (eg Microsoft), in which case pretending to be MSIE often works. :-?

Finally, I for one dislike the default skin a lot, so I'd strongly recommend you take a couple of minutes to download something better (right-click on the speedbar and select {Skin} - {Get skins}).
 

Mercutio

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Day 1, minute 5: I have installed Opera 7.23. The default skin looks like blue-on-gray plastic. Quickly switched to "text only" buttons, to save eyesight, sanity.

Day 1, minute 11: Still can't find a "stop" button.

Day 1, minute 14: Elements on page keep moving around as page is rendered. This is highly obnoxious. Still no sign of stop button.
 

CityK

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Speaking of stop buttons - in Firebird (v0.7) the stop button gets greyed out after the page loads for me....I would really like it still to be available to prevent annoying animations - which as Mercutio pointed out, are often highly obnoxious.

Anyone know a solution?

I'm off to mozilazine now to see what I can find on the forums.
 

CityK

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well that was easy enough. Mind you not a perfect solution, but it appears one is in the works.

- stop buttton greyed out is a bug being addressed
- new nightlies feature esc key to stop animations

For the time beign,
- type about:config in url, find image something or other (name should be self evident), and change animations to none.
- exit FB
- reload FB
- no more dancing leprechauns etc etc.

I look forward to v0.8
 

CityK

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Oh yeah, there are apparently extentions available too (i.e "what they left out") that will do the trick and then some.
 

CougTek

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CityK said:
For the time beign,
- type about:config in url, find image something or other (name should be self evident), and change animations to none.
- exit FB
- reload FB
- no more dancing leprechauns etc etc.
Thanks for the tip, I was a little annoyed by this too.
 

i

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CityK said:
- no more dancing leprechauns etc etc.

Dancing leprechauns? Just what kind of websites are you visiting?!

Oh. Wait.

It's not me is it?
 

time

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I confess I have no idea what you're talking about with the Stop button, Merc. On the main speedbar, it alternates between Reload and Stop; it shows as Stop (on my current skin a big red 'X') while a page is loading and changes to Reload when it has finished. You can also press [F5] to reload and [Esc] to stop.

If you change {View} - {Progress bar} to 'Show inside address bar', you'll get another Stop button that appears at the start of the address input field while a page is loading.

CityK, in Opera that's [F12] [E]

i.e. {Quick preferences} - {Enable animations} toggle. Or you can set it permanently in Preferences.
 

CityK

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Well, to tell the truth i, I forgot that I had set FB to block images from your website. But having changed the animations feature this morning, your not being edited anymore. Welcome back my cone mine loving friend! :D
 

Mercutio

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Day 1, Hour 7: The squamous close tab "x" is WAY too close to the regular Windows Close button. I have now closed Opera twice when I meant to close a tab. Good thing Opera has all those recovery features.
Apparently the "Stop" button on the main toolbar flashes for about 1/2 second when I click a link. Again, I think every browser needs a real stop button. The stop button on the same line as the address bar is the one I remember from previous versions of Opera. It behaves just as the main one does. Firebird's can do things like stop animations, even if a page isn't loading. Very handy; I hadn't realized that the smilie icons on SF blink and twitch and crap.

Opera seems to me to have a very chunky interface. There are sparsely-used toolbars and needlessly large dialog boxes. In feel, ignoring the UI issues that I consider idiosyncratic, it feels more like IE or Konq than Moz. Keyboard shortcuts aren't quite right either. A lot of shortcuts that are held in common with IE and Moz do something different in Opera.

I haven't seen any pop-ups yet, although I did turn on Opera's blocker before I did anything else. I haven't found occasion to block a plugin, either

Opera didn't automatically find or import my Moz/Firebird bookmarks or IE favorites. It does appear to have a functional converter, but it doesn't find the files on its own, instead asking me to navigate through explorer. Pbbt.
Opera appears to use a single file for bookmarks, as is good and proper, but Operasoft has also helpfully filled my list of bookmarks with a bunch of crap I'll never look at. Thanks for bookmarking ebay for me. I never would've found it on my own.

As far as page rendering goes: Opera seems to load elements of a page faster than Gecko. I don't think that's a good thing. Things literally leap around the screen as loading finishes. Firebird has a slightly longer gap before it begins to display, but page elements are fixed. It's much easier to interact with an unfinished page in Firebird.
 

Mercutio

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Day 1, hour 8:
Every once in awhile the cursor goes off in the weeks and I have to TAB it back to where I wanted. Not sure why.

Scroll wheel: In firebird I go into about: config and set it to move 1 screen at a time. Opera doesn't seem to do this. Lots of wheel movement, just like IE, to scroll around a page.

I don't see an option to turn off animation, either (I set firebird to play them one time each, actually).

pr0n: Gets its own heading.

Despite time's comments, I don't see a way to select and open multiple links in tabs besides individually clicking. I use this feature a great deal when looking for smut on line, and it's not uncommon for me to have 100 or so open tabs in Firebird. The firebird extension that allows me to do this is called "Linky". If Opera has a similar extension it isn't listed on the operasoft.com page.
Bulk-saves: First, the default Page-Save doesn't include images and I don't see a shortcut key for the proper, image-including one. Firebird has a small extension that allows me to bulk-save large numbers of tabs to proscribed locations on my hard disk. The small tool I use for that feature is called magpie. Saving the contents of 100 open tabs would obviously be slightly tedious without it.
Privacy controls: Opera has an equivalent to Moz's "Only Accept Cookies from Originating Server", and does not display the marathon 5-minute-long tempfile cleaning that IE seems to need (at least not at my default cache size of 200MB).

I'd say there's nothing particularly compelling about Opera's browsing experience, particularly for dirty pictires, but I'll give time a day or so to respond on the multi-link opening and the multi-tab saving issues since he seemed pretty confident that opera would do those things.

Built-in find: Simply put, Opera doesn't do it. In firebird, rather than opening a "find" window, I just click on a part of the page/frame and start typing. Firebird auto-finds. This is something I'm used to. Opera, on the other hand, uses the standard "Edit > Find" or F3 method.

Progress bar: Like Moz/Firebird, Opera has a decent progress bar that indicates how much of a page has loaded. This is a good thing. I wish IE would do it.

Page zoom: What's the point? It's kind of cute for images, but whole pages lose all hope of readability below 90% and above 200% (too much horizontal scrolling). No text-only zoom? I don't see an option for it.

History: I don't ever use "History", in any browser, but Opera's "Window" menu includes a list of recently-closed tabs, which might be handy if you, too keep clicking on the wrong #$#$%!ing "close" button (again, let me just say I think Opera's UI designer needs a sharp blow to the head).

Navigation: Beside the 99.99% lack of a stop button, Opera CAN add "Fast Forward" and "Rewind" buttons to the toolbar. I'm not sure why; right clicking on plain old back and forward gives the same list of of sites you've browsed as always.
Why, oh why is "Open Tab in background" not a default? I have to hold down CTRL-SHIFT-ENTER and click at the same time to open a tab in the background. I'm left-handed, but my trackball is on my right. Even so, the only logical way to do that with my right hand on my pointer and my left reaching clear across the goddamn keyboard to the right-hand grouping of CTRL-SHIFT-ENTER.

... and while I'm on the subject: Tabs don't behave the way I expect: If I close a tab at the end of the group, it returns me to the tab I was looking at before, rather than the tab next-closest to the end (the standard moz) behavior. I don't see a way to make it behave in the manner I prefer. Bleh.

Built-in notepad: This is a small add-on for Moz/Firebird. Paste to note is a useful thing.

Crash: At the recovery point I count 61 open tabs. I had been trying to print from Opera at the same time, to my Phaser 850. Might've been a bug in the printer driver, I suppose. Attempt #2 printed just fine.
 

time

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The saga continues ...

Mercutio said:
The squamous close tab "x" is WAY too close to the regular Windows Close button. I have now closed Opera twice when I meant to close a tab.
I guess it is a problem for the inexperienced Windows user. :lol: Most of the alternative skins change the client window icons to be clearly different from the MDI parent window's. At the end of the day, you need to complain to Microsoft - it's their API, i.e. native Windows.

Alternatively, right-click on the page tab and select Close page (or if it has focus, hit [Ctrl][F4] - this is another Windows standard).

To be fair, I noticed that Opera's alternative SDI interface seems to have got somewhat broken around version 7, in that it no longer makes sense. :-? Perhaps Tannin could comment on this?

Apparently the "Stop" button on the main toolbar flashes for about 1/2 second when I click a link.
That's right, the page objects have already been retrieved. I realise that this seems somewhat impossible to a Moz/IE afficionado, but it really is that fast. All that remains is to render the page. :p

Seriously folks, I'll concede that my daughter has noticed that the Stop button occasionally disappears prematurely (although she is still on 7.11). I've never noticed it myself - could it be related to image blocking, Merc?

Again, I think every browser needs a real stop button ... Firebird's can do things like stop animations, even if a page isn't loading. Very handy; I hadn't realized that the smilie icons on SF blink and twitch and crap.

Well, I just tried this with Mozilla 1.6, and all I could see was a grayed out Stop button that completely ignored me when I clicked on it. Perhaps it's a 'feature' of Firebird 0.8 alpha, which I haven't tried?

As I've already said, you can kill these in Opera with two keystrokes. <yawn>

Opera seems to me to have a very chunky interface. There are sparsely-used toolbars and needlessly large dialog boxes. In feel, ignoring the UI issues that I consider idiosyncratic, it feels more like IE or Konq than Moz.
Try launching a {File} - {Open} dialog from Wordpad. It's the same, because it's a standard Windows dialog box. :roll:

Keyboard shortcuts aren't quite right either. A lot of shortcuts that are held in common with IE and Moz do something different in Opera.
A lot are the same too! Not to worry, as I already pointed out, you can actually customize Opera, unlike the other two. But as Opera's shortcuts are usually more logical and predate the other two, I would not bother personally.

Opera didn't automatically find or import my Moz/Firebird bookmarks or IE favorites. It does appear to have a functional converter, but it doesn't find the files on its own, instead asking me to navigate through explorer. Pbbt.
Interesting. It certainly used to auto-import other browser bookmarks, particularly IE favourites. In fact, I just tried it manually, and it went unerringly to the Exploder Fave directory. I can understand it not jumping to conclusions with Moz, however.

Opera appears to use a single file for bookmarks, as is good and proper, but Operasoft has also helpfully filled my list of bookmarks with a bunch of crap I'll never look at. Thanks for bookmarking ebay for me. I never would've found it on my own.
Well, there you go! Helpful, isn't it?

Again, seriously, how hard is it to select all the predefined bookmarks and delete them? Two keystrokes, actually: [Ctrl][A], then [Delete]. Given that the supplied bookmarks are solely intended as a helpful feature, I might go the extra mile and create a new folder called, say, 'Default' or 'Opera', and just drag all the existing bookmarks into it.

I'd definitely need a good lie down after that, though ... :D

As far as page rendering goes: Opera seems to load elements of a page faster than Gecko. I don't think that's a good thing.
Yes folks, you saw it here first: Man dislikes faster computing experience. :eek:

Things literally leap around the screen as loading finishes. Firebird has a slightly longer gap before it begins to display, but page elements are fixed. It's much easier to interact with an unfinished page in Firebird.
From nontroppo.org/wiki/Opera7Performance (currently overloaded):

Problem: Page contents moves about while loading, appearing to load slowly.

Cause: Opera uses a progressive rendering technology which actually speeds up the time it takes to get readable text content, but at the expense of the page redrawing each time some new information is added. Many users perceive this to be actually slower when they see the content redrawing, even if when timed objectively, it is faster. Opera gives you the choice about how you want it to load the page, depending on what you perceive as faster!!!

Solution: If you would rather read the text quickly at the expense of the page redrawing more, set Preferences » Windows » Loading to "redraw instantly". If you would rather wait (to see more smooth loading behaviour), then increase this setting according to your taste. Users on slow connections but fast computers should set this about 1-2 second, slower computers on slow connections about 2-3 seconds. If you have a fast connection, most data should be in by about 1-2 seconds, so set to "redraw instantly" (or "redraw when loaded" if you want it super smooth!). If your fast connection is linked to a slow computer, then set it from about 2 seconds up ("redraw when loaded" should be good in this case) to minimise lots of page redrawing.

As a further tip for older computers:Opera gives you the choice to save some memory and CPU by not pre-drawing the images before you see them on the page. The benefit is less used resources, but graphics may 'pop' onto the screen rather than smoothly scrolling into view. If you want to save memory and resources, set Preferences » Multimedia » Draw Images Instantly to OFF.
 

time

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Mercutio said:
Every once in awhile the cursor goes off in the weeks and I have to TAB it back to where I wanted. Not sure why.
Sorry, no idea why you're getting this.

Scroll wheel: In firebird I go into about: config and set it to move 1 screen at a time. Opera doesn't seem to do this. Lots of wheel movement, just like IE, to scroll around a page.
The real villain here is Mozilla, which rather than respect the global Windows settings, demands its own. :p

Opera, on the other hand, plays nice: if you want faster scrolling, just change your Windows scroll increment to '6 lines' rather than the default of '3 lines'.

I don't see an option to turn off animation, either (I set firebird to play them one time each, actually).
Already pointed out in a previous post that this can be toggled with [F12] & [E].

Despite time's comments, I don't see a way to select and open multiple links in tabs besides individually clicking. I use this feature a great deal when looking for smut on line, and it's not uncommon for me to have 100 or so open tabs in Firebird. The firebird extension that allows me to do this is called "Linky". If Opera has a similar extension it isn't listed on the operasoft.com page.
That's probably because it's not an extension. ;)

Press [F4] to display the Hotlist panel. Select 'Links', then mark the links you are interested in, right click and select 'Open in new page' or 'Open in background page'.

Alternatively, press [Ctrl][J] (for Jump, I guess). From the Links dialog that this pops up, you can open, bookmark or save the pages referenced by the links you select.

Firebird has a small extension that allows me to bulk-save large numbers of tabs to proscribed locations on my hard disk. The small tool I use for that feature is called magpie. Saving the contents of 100 open tabs would obviously be slightly tedious without it.
It sounds like all you want to do is download an entire site, which is better handled by other tools. However, you can select multiple linked sites for download in Opera (see above). I just don't know if this is the same functionality as Magpie provides you.

Built-in find: Simply put, Opera doesn't do it. In firebird, rather than opening a "find" window, I just click on a part of the page/frame and start typing. Firebird auto-finds. This is something I'm used to. Opera, on the other hand, uses the standard "Edit > Find" or F3 method.
Click on {Edit} - {Inline find}. You'll still have to press [Ctrl][F] the first time you want to search a particular page (Opera has lots of keyboard shortcuts, and these have precedence over inline searching, so you need to tell it that you want to enter search mode), but after that the functionality is identical.

Page zoom: What's the point? It's kind of cute for images, but whole pages lose all hope of readability below 90% and above 200% (too much horizontal scrolling). No text-only zoom? I don't see an option for it.
On a 1152x864 display, I found it perfectly readable until the text was 'greeked' at 70%.

It's self-evident that it is preferable to scale an entire page rather than just the text that wraps around the graphical objects (which may include headings etc). However, it's much harder than merely adjusting the html font size before feeding it to your rendering engine, which is all that Mozilla and IE do.

Frankly, I use the feature all the time, particularly to zoom in and out while viewing photographic images.

The only point in scaling text is if it is too small to read comfortably. Opera can automatically override a web page's font size selection if it is below your comfort zone.

Opera CAN add "Fast Forward" and "Rewind" buttons to the toolbar. I'm not sure why; right clicking on plain old back and forward gives the same list of of sites you've browsed as always.
Fast Forward tries to grab the next page in a sequence, eg. when you are reading a multi-page review. Rewind drops you back to the page at which you entered a site. The latter is occasionally useful.

Why, oh why is "Open Tab in background" not a default? I have to hold down CTRL-SHIFT-ENTER and click at the same time to open a tab in the background. I'm left-handed, but my trackball is on my right. Even so, the only logical way to do that with my right hand on my pointer and my left reaching clear across the goddamn keyboard to the right-hand grouping of CTRL-SHIFT-ENTER.
There's a few answers to this, but here's a couple that spring to mind:

1. You only need to hold down [Ctrl]+[Shift] while you click - [Enter] is for when you are not using a mouse.
2. Press your mouse wheel to click on the link. The default behaviour is to open the linked page in the background. You can reprogram the middle mouse button by holding down [Shift] when you press it.
3. Use {Window} - {Create linked}. Anything you click on will be opened in the slave window, in the background.

Tabs don't behave the way I expect: If I close a tab at the end of the group, it returns me to the tab I was looking at before, rather than the tab next-closest to the end (the standard moz) behavior. I don't see a way to make it behave in the manner I prefer. Bleh.
{Preferences} - {Windows} - {Cycle pages}: change from 'Recently used order' to 'Page bar order'.
 

Mercutio

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Stop button: It's enabled for me in Firebird if there are any animations playing on a page. When the animations stop, it's disabled. That's fine. I'm also quite happy that it has a consistent location; with Opera, if I ever had a CHANCE to click it, I'd have to remember which button it was sharing space with.
A persistent Stop button is not wasted space. It's a point of standardization that I believe is useful on those occasions when it is needed.

time said:
Sorry, no idea why you're getting this.

Happens on Yahoo's mail site, here and on Slashdot. It's highly annoying.

time said:
The real villain here is Mozilla, which rather than respect the global Windows settings, demands its own. :p

Since a web browser is more-or-less the only place I use the scrollwheel, I'm not seeing a problem. Whole page scrolling is an awesome thing. I just wish Opera would do it.

time said:
Already pointed out in a previous post that this can be toggled with [F12] & [E].

... or in Moz, I can hit ESC (or STOP, the button Opera doesn't have), which makes a lot more sense.

time said:
That's probably because it's not an extension. ;)

Press [F4] to display the Hotlist panel. Select 'Links', then mark the links you are interested in, right click and select 'Open in new page' or 'Open in background page'.

Alternatively, press [Ctrl][J] (for Jump, I guess). From the Links dialog that this pops up, you can open, bookmark or save the pages referenced by the links you select.

First of all, I think browser sidebars are an abomination. I can't stand them. Everything should go in a tab. Perma-frames are annoying on individual web pages, and they're even worse when they're part of the browser. Opera's hotlist falls into this category.

Secondly, none of these behaviors duplicates the functions I want/need. I can't select more than one link at a time. If I want to go click-click-click-click, I'll use some less refined browser like Opera.

RE: Extensions - Mozilla's site references the various pages containing all the extensions I normally use (I have 12 loaded. The largest was a 1.2MB download. The smallest are around 50kb apiece). They aren't officially part of Moz or Firebird, but since they auto-install and are linked from Mozilla.org, I don't see them as different from downloading additional bits for IE from Windows update.

time said:
It sounds like all you want to do is download an entire site, which is better handled by other tools. However, you can select multiple linked sites for download in Opera (see above). I just don't know if this is the same functionality as Magpie provides you.
Er, no. It isn't selective enough. I can include everything I have open but not, say, 90 tabs out of 100. I'm not downloading a whole site there, just a whole lot of extra new material on an existing page.

These two things are a very big deal, and they do have uses besides downloading porno. Certainly, those two things put together do make downloading a large selection of web content much, much easier.

Also, most site-downloaders break when dealing with secure content. Try using WebSnake on cyber.playboy.com and see how far you get.

time said:
Click on {Edit} - {Inline find}. You'll still have to press [Ctrl][F] the first time you want to search a particular page (Opera has lots of keyboard shortcuts...

That seems like a whole lot more work compared to just typing in my search.

Page zoom: What's the point?
time said:
On a 1152x864 display, I found it perfectly readable until the text was 'greeked' at 70%.
It's self-evident that it is preferable to scale an entire page rather than just the text that wraps around the graphical objects (which may include headings etc). However, it's much harder than merely adjusting the html font size before feeding it to your rendering engine, which is all that Mozilla and IE do.
Really? 'Cause I can't think of a time when I needed an image to be bigger, and lots and lots and lots of times I wish I had bigger text. Windows has a built-in screen magnifier if I really cared about whole-page magnification.

Maybe you just need to look at higher-resolution porn. :)

I was using a 1280x1024 display on a 21" monitor. I'll freely admit I don't have the best eyesight in the world.

time said:
There's a few answers to this, but here's a couple that spring to mind:

1. [blah blah blah]
2. [" " "]
3. [" " "]

{Preferences} - {Windows} - {Cycle pages}: change from 'Recently used order' to 'Page bar order'.

Again with UI issues. All of these things should have been much more apparent, and weren't. Admittedly, I didn't look for a way to fix Opera's tab handling, but believe me, seeing "CTRL-SHIFT-ENTER" as the keyboard shortcut really set me off looking for another way. "Create Linked Windows" means exactly nothing to me, and the search in Opera's help file doesn't return any results about it.

So I'm back to the same point: I can't do the things I want to do as easily or quickly as with Firebird, plus I keep accidently closing the whole fucking browser. It's really not faster by any rational definition. My rational defintion: Trying to interact with partially loaded pages means not playing tag with a submit button as it moves around the screen. Yes, I tried messing around with the timing as time suggested. It was never "right" in the way that Firebird and even IE are. It still has UI issues, and it still crashed, albeit only once, compared to five or six times for Opera 6, the last version I tried.

Given the productivity improvements I get with no-cost Firebird (6.1MB) + ~5 minutes to get my extensions (which live in my firebird install folder and don't need to be reinstalled when I upgrade browsers anyway), vs. paying $40 (real cost) to get non-broken-no-ads Opera (3.1MB with no possibility of doing some things I need), I think I can safely say I'm saving time AND money sticking with Firebird.
 

Mercutio

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time said:
The saga continues ...
...
That's right, the page objects have already been retrieved. I realise that this seems somewhat impossible to a Moz/IE afficionado, but it really is that fast. All that remains is to render the page. :p

... and thereafter begins to render them in an initially incorrect fashion, causing those same page objects to jump around the page like hyperactive epileptics, before coming to a stop in the correct locations that Moz and IE would already have determined.

time said:
Seriously folks, I'll concede that my daughter has noticed that the Stop button occasionally disappears prematurely (although she is still on 7.11). I've never noticed it myself - could it be related to image blocking, Merc?

Could be, although I only used Opera's toggled loading for a few minutes. It's more of a hassle than I'd prefer, although it's better than nothing.

Well, I just tried this with Mozilla 1.6, and all I could see was a grayed out Stop button that completely ignored me when I clicked on it. Perhaps it's a 'feature' of Firebird 0.8 alpha, which I haven't tried?

Or very possibly a part of one of the extensions I have loaded. Doesn't matter to me. It's always there when I need it.

Try launching a {File} - {Open} dialog from Wordpad. It's the same, because it's a standard Windows dialog box.

I'm looking at an Opera "Find" dialog right now. There's a ~15 pixel border around a central area within another border that's a further ~10 pixels away from any component actually related to the finding of words on a page. Opera's Save control might be the standard Windows control, but its find certainly isn't. The preferences tool seems larger on screen than it needs to be, too, or perhaps just unusually sparse.

A lot are the same too! Not to worry, as I already pointed out, you can actually customize Opera, unlike the other two. But as Opera's shortcuts are usually more logical and predate the other two, I would not bother personally.

If they can be made the same as every other browser, why aren't they? Why cause everyone else to suffer just because you want to be a little different?

Interesting. It certainly used to auto-import other browser bookmarks, particularly IE favourites. In fact, I just tried it manually, and it went unerringly to the Exploder Fave directory. I can understand it not jumping to conclusions with Moz, however.

Why should I have to take the manual step? And why not Netscape? It defaults to looking for Netscape prefs in my Opera profile folder. WTF? Would it be too much work to check my user profile?

Again, seriously, how hard is it to select all the predefined bookmarks and delete them?
I'd definitely need a good lie down after that, though ... :D

My specific objection in that case was to the quantity of "helpful" that was provided. I view IE's built-in bookmarks similarly. It makes me wonder how much Hasbro paid to have wizards.com as part of Opera's default links. What percentage of Opera users visit the Magic: The Gathering web site enough to need a default link to it?

Yes folks, you saw it here first: Man dislikes faster computing experience.

Nope, I just dislike Opera's built-in "Catch the Submit Button" video game.

I have neither a slow computer (slowest in the house is a 2200. This one is a 2500) nor a slow connection (around 1Mbit). Opera's page loading does not look or feel right. At the point Firebird starts to render, yes, Opera has some page elements on the screen, but they're jiggling around, whereas the Firebird page is essentially complete to whatever point it's at. When Firebird tells me a page is done, page elements have all been rendered. Opera, in the meantime, is still readjusting elements on screen in response to... something or other. Images being loaded, I think.

Example: Opera begins to display page elements ~5 seconds after I type "salon.com" in the location bar, and continues moving those elements around until ~24 seconds. Firebird doesn't display anything until about 9 seconds after I hit enter, but at that point, far, FAR more of the page is rendered, and the only thing that moves from where FB puts it initially is the main page column, in response to an column-heading image load. FB is completely done at ~20 seconds, giving 4 extra jiggle time while Opera continues to re-interpret its first guess.
 

e_dawg

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An admirable attempt, but rather limited to Linux browsers. IMO the top contenders including the Windows platform includes these 5 browsers:

1. Moz 1.6
2. Firebird 0.8
3. Opera 7.23
4. myIE2 0.9.13
5. Avant Browser 8.02.211

I am fairly certain that no matter which of these five you use, you just can't lose. Browsers have come a long way in the past couple years. While Moz and friends have been eating Opera's lunch lately, remember that Opera was around before Moz was even close to being ready for prime time, and NetCraptor wasn't around until later. If anything, Opera paved the way as one of the original alternative browsers.
 

Mercutio

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In the beginning, there was Mosaic. Mosaic ran on everything, and worked the same way on every OS (as nearly as I can remember, anyway).
Then came Netscape, a newer browser that initially didn't work on every platform (Macintosh first, then Windows, then *nix), but featured a performance innovation of making several connections to a web server, so that page elements were downloaded in parallel. Netscape didn't do everything that Mosaic did, and was buggy as hell, but it was much faster.

Eventually, Spyglass Explorer sprang into being, largely based on at-the-time older and dormant Mosaic code. Spyglass ("the other browser company") was regarded as an also-ran, but their software sometimes got bundled with ISP setup disks, so they made a little money.

Microsoft got involved with murky dealings with Netscape. Netscape wouldn't fold. Microsoft licensed Spyglass's browser (again, an also-ran nothing at the time), folded it in to IE. IE2 is the first version I remember using. I liked it at the time because it didn't handle frames. I hate frames.

I became aware of Opera when both IE and Netscape were in 3.0 versions. I don't remember where Opera was, but I do remember that the download fit on a floppy and was a fast browser. Unfortunately, it crashed like nothing else on Earth. If it was available to the public before that point, I have to believe they probably just coded the application error and said bugger the rest.
 

blakerwry

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IE 2 and IE 3 were the most god awefully unstable things in win3.1 On the other hand netscape 2 and 3 ran great on it for me. I never used Mosaic, but I've heard about it because I went to KU (where it was atleast partially developed)
 

e_dawg

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blakerwry said:
not mozaic -> netscape?

since uh... they were around before internet exploder.

I define "original alternative browser" as Opera. Nutscrape and IE were the dominant browsers at the time. Then along came Opera!

As Merc said, NCSA Mosaic was not really an "alternative", as it basically was "it". And Netscape was more or less mainstream as well. If anything, IE 3.02 was an alternative for a while, and possibly IE 4.01 (I used them both as they were more stable for me than the de facto standard at the time, which was Netscape).

After a while, IE 4.01 and Netscape whatever it was at the time battled it out for browser supremacy, sharing dominance for a while. At that time, I considered Opera to be the first real alternative browser but didn't take it seriously until IE 5 came out. I actually used one of the last minor revisions of Opera 3 for a while as my main browser, and at the time, Opera's MDI was the original "tabbed browser". It was great for research, as I could have all the relevant pages tiled on the screen instead of using 18 instances of IE 5, for example.
 

blakerwry

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lol, and i thought MS was doing it to be competitive and be "nice". it's interesting how this page takes the EXACT opposite stance of many of the viewers of this site. I hate sites that require flash. It's just bad web page design.

I'm dissapointed.
 
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