Another Digital Camera Thread - Point and Shoot

[Tea]

Bahhh..... Tannin does a poor job of using flash with any camera. His fancy SLRs help, and he went stupid and bought a twin head macro flash a while back, but so far as flash goes, he's a non-talent.

 

[Tannin]

Now that's not true, little one. I just have a lot of learning to do. Don't use flash much, so I haven't got very good at it yet - that's all there is to it.

 

[Tea]

Hmmmm ... seems to me you have way too much money and not enough skill. But what would I know, I'm only an ape.

 

[e_dawg]

Natural looking flash photography is not easy, that's for sure! The first thing I bought after the D40 body + lens kit was a flash with bounce capability, Omni-bounce diffuser, portable reflector, and a set of gels.

 

[Tannin]

I plan to buy a 580EX II, E_Dawg, plus a Better Beamer so that I can focus it at a suitable distance for working with a 500mm lens and small birds in (e.g.) rainforest. And that means I will probably need a new tripod head that is designed to let me add a flash bracket .... so the whole thing will cost a bloody forture.

Meanwhile, I also want a 1Ds III and a 200-400/4 (if Canon finally decide to make one) and a 24-105 ..... Making things worse, I've sold my mother three times already, so I'm going to have to do work to earn the cash to pay for all that.

Sometimes I think it would be easier to have a cheaper pasttime, such as racing ocean yachts, or high-stakes poker, or cocaine.

 

[Tannin]

PS: essentially, I'm just aiming for fill flash. Full-on flash photography of birds usually looks terrible, I just want to lift the colours a fraction.

 

[e_dawg]

Isn't it ironic the hoops we jump through with flash to make things look more natural?

 

[Fushigi]

After all consideration we're still leaning towards the SD900. But I'm going to do my best to wait a week or so before buying (hard to do .. I just got my bonus). PMA 2007 is March 8-11 so I'll hold off to see if any interesting announcements are made.

 

[udaman]

After all consideration we're still leaning towards the SD900. But I'm going to do my best to wait a week or so before buying (hard to do .. I just got my bonus). PMA 2007 is March 8-11 so I'll hold off to see if any interesting announcements are made.

SD800is is a far superior model, you don't need max megapixes, this just degrades low light with excessive heavy handed NR. The 800is has a wider angle 28mm comparative lens, which will prove to be very useful for the average consumer. You can't under estimate the usefulness of image stabilization on that SD800is, it's great for a P'N'S digicam.

Both the SD800is($339) and A710is ($239+free shipping) are on sale at Dell Home for today only at lower than ever prices... so tempted to get the A710is.

http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?sku=A0725573&cs=19&c=us&l=en
http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=dhs&cs=19&sku=A0732944

(note, reseller ratings are pretty low for Dell ).

Even though I wish the Canon TX1 hybrid had a 28-280mm lens instead of the less useful range of 39-390mm, and it's got a horribly small, low res screen, I'm still intriged by the possible uses given both Image stabilized video and still capability (albeit frustratingly limited to minimal autoexposure, for someone more used to the flexbility and power of a dSLR). I kind of doubt there will be any more 'major announcements' at PMA 2007 (Oly is annoucing their long awaited 'live view LCD' dSLR E-1 replacement, but it won't ship until June or later)

 

[Fushigi]

I ordered the SD800IS + 8GB Patriot SDHC combo from Newegg. Under $400 shipped after a $10 rebate. Yes, 8GB is silly but it's a Class 4 card with decent reviews and the price is good.

 

[Fushigi]

The camera & flash card arrived today. Wth the 8GB card I can supposedly take almost 4100 shots before it fills up.

 

[e_dawg]

That's nuts. Enjoy your new toy and report back after a week or two to let us know how you like it.

 

[Pradeep]

I'm assuming your battery will run out long before you get to 4100 shots. It's still nice to remove limiting factors such as storage space.

 

[Fushigi]

Well I adjusted it to Superfine mode and it's down to a mere 2575 pics on the 8GB card.

DPReview and others note 200-250 shots/battery charge. More, obviously, if I use the fiew finder and turn off the LCD and/or disable the flash. I'll likely pick up one or two extra batteries. I've bought from SterlingTek before and they have higher capacity generic battery replacements that are far cheaper than the Canon-branded units: http://sterlingtek.stores.yahoo.net/canb13bapaeq.html

I haven't bought a case for it but I noticed that it fits quite nicely in my cel phone belt pouch: http://store.treocentral.com/content/accessories/4-120--19.htm As I've taken to putting my cel in my front pants pocket the belt pouch will work fine.

Minor gripes: No battery life indicator. Smooth surfaces show fingerprints and smudges easily; will have to wipe down often to keep it looking clean.

 

[LunarMist]

Wow, that is a crazy size card for a P&S. Presumably you have great faith in that specific cards and can accept the risk of failure. I don't like to use cards larger than 4GB – about 240 frames in the 1Ds MK II.

 

[Fushigi]

The card was under $50 after rebate; under $60 before so the price delta over a 4GB card isn't much. It's Patriot brand and has decent reviews.

Frankly, I hate carrying extra cards, batteries, and chargers. While I have no choice on the battery & charger front I can eliminate extra cards by using a higher capacity. In theory there's no reason to expect two 4GB cards to be more reliable than one 8GB. Potential issues from the higher density of an 8 giger are balanced by issues that can occur during swapping or losing a 4 gig or smaller card while it's outside of the camera.

And while I would hate to lose anything, in the end they're just pictures. The real memories are in my head (along with the voices ).

 

[e_dawg]

Dpreview just reviewed the Fuji F31fd

Excerpt from dpreview:

In the fast-moving, 'bigger better faster' world of the digital compact the Fujifilm FinePix F30 will be one of the rare few that are remembered after they have gone (the nearest this throwaway business gets to a 'classic'). The reason this unassuming, blocky little camera stands out from the scores of other cameras launched last year - and why it has a mantelpiece covered in industry awards - is simple; image quality, or more specifically, high ISO performance. [...] Although it has its share of faults the F30 became the benchmark by which all compact cameras in the 6-8 megapixel sector were judged.

[...]

To sum up; the F31fd is everything the F30 was, with a couple of tweaks here and there that - on balance - can be considered to offer a slight improvement over what was already a uniquely capable camera. I suspect (though I hope I'm wrong) that this is the last time we'll see this sensor in a compact camera, as Fuji feels the pressure to keep up with the megapixel race ever more strongly. This would be a real tragedy; the F31fd hits the image quality 'sweet spot' by using a large sensor, relatively low pixel count and some very clever processing, and I can't see them repeating this with a more densely-packed sensor. It is the perfect illustration of the oft made point that more pixels do not mean better quality; we've compared the F31fd to a whole range of much more expensive compacts going right up to 10MP, and - aside from a little extra resolution at base ISO - it puts most of them to shame. Once you get to ISO 400 there simply isn't a compact on the market that can hold a flame to it.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/fujifilmf31fd/

 

[Will Rickards]

The fuji F32fd camera looks great. Personally I only have two problems with it.
1. still xD. Well I guess I could deal with that.
2. only 3x optical zoom. I guess I really am asking a lot when I want 10x.

Still I'm thinking this is my next camera. And my birthday is in June.
I don't think I'm ready for the expense or weight/size of a DSLR.

 

[udaman]

Dpreview just reviewed the Fuji F31fd

Excerpt from dpreview:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/fujifilmf31fd/

One of the near deal breakers for me on the Fuji F31/F30 is the odd macro/normal close focus limitation barrier at ~2ft. As pointed out in this review, 2ft is table lenght, sitting across from opposing people at a resturant, where you're going to have to shift into macro just to get the shot. Class leading sensor, but the Fuji, needs major work to bring it up to the competition in most other areas of useability. From the review above:

"Our biggest complaint about the F31fd's macro mode is that the focusing is slow - sometimes painfully so, something it shares with the F30 and the F10 before it. I'd also like to see the standard (i.e. non macro) mode allow focusing a little closer; the 60cm (2 foot) limitation means you often have to switch to macro mode just to photograph someone across the table at dinner."


http://www.kenrockwell.com/ryan/2007/2007-02.htm

"[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Don't like the blurry photo? Too bad! It's a 1/2 second hand-held exposure! All shots at ISO 1600, Nikon D40, 18-55mm, no flash and no IS or VR, except for the top shot of Ryan in his seat, which was with a bounced SB-400. Noni and Pops kept moving, so nothing would have made a sharp shot at 1/2 second.[/FONT]"

Here is where no small size sensor can compare to a low noise high ISO dSLR like that new Canon with supposed 6400 capability. But the Fuji F31d is flawed in not licensing or using image stabilization, even if it would not help in the above Rockwell example (a common PnS situation where you don't want to use a flash, but there is movement in the low light shot).

Now look at the slightly greater NR shots from the nearly identical Fuji F30 in the linked review below at faster shutter speeds, 3-4 stops faster that the 1/2 sec. example above, from the F30 @ ISO1600 & 3200 inside a restaurant- which again is a common situation...one I would want a PnS for. Unfortunately you can't capture anything with motion in such a situation, even minor motion. If you needed/wanted to crop those images, did not have time to zoom in (where slower f stop at the longer end of the zoom range would have required even slower shutter speeds, greater loss of image quality) you'd get little in the way of detail in those shots the you needed to crop---you can't even make out any of the text/logo designs on the condiments on the table. dpreview shows the theoretical limits of the camera in a studio environment, which is far from the 'real' world. The Canon TX1 is decent in well lit environments, but is apparently just terrible (compared to the similar sized Canon 800is still camera) in 'real' world low light situations...ISO 1600 is a joke on that one, even more so than the 800is, in fact you'd have to say other than the slowest ISO, you'll get grainy low detail, which defeats the 720p capability, shots with the TX1 in low light...very unfortunate, and a significant flaw that is a deal stopper for me).

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/F30/F30A.HTM

If you can keep the ISO down below 200 using IS, looks like the Caplio R6 28-200mm is a thinner alternative, truely purse/pocketable PnS, only lacking in manual WB adjustment, compared to the Panasonic semi-slim line of Lumix PnS's (though there are some nice advanced tweaks available on the Panasonic I might use)

http://www.trustedreviews.com/digital-cameras/review/2007/04/09/Ricoh-Caplio-R6-Review/p1



BTW, from the looks of the review, the Canon TX1 needs a whole lot of improvement in the next revision, and a wider angle lens, much better low light sensitivity (too bad Fuji doesn't make a hybrid like this w/IS). I still like the idea of being able to capture 720p HD video from a cigarette box sized PnS, other competing models like those from Sanyo are much larger in size.

http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/canon/powershot_tx1-review/

 

[e_dawg]

Yes, ideally someone would make a camera that has Fuji's excellent sensor and an optical image stabilization capability like Canon and Panasonic that doesn't use xD.

I don't mind the macro switching phenomenon of the Fujis. It also has the benefit of switching the flash to a lower power curve so that it is less likely to overexpose nearer subjects.

What I would most like to be improved in the Fuji F series is (1) the purple fringing, (2) the ability to adjust flash exposure compensation, and (3) optical image stabilization

The purple fringing can already be partially addressed by the user simply by using negative exposure compensation, but since this reduces the effective dynamic range of the picture, it is not ideal.

Ideally, the flash would be intelligent enough to expose subjects correctly regardless of the distance, zoom, and ISO setting, but that is asking a lot, as the vast majority of compact P&S digicam have a terrible time with correctly exposed flash pictures. Even dSLR's have a bit of difficulty with it at times. Ultimately, the most feasible solution would be to implement adjustable flash exposure compensation, so the user could address this as needed.

Optical image stabilization is unlikely to be implemented unless Fuji somehow strikes a deal with another mfr for this technology or develops it themselves. Either way, it doesn't seem to be on the horizon in the near future.

 

[e_dawg]

Just wanted to mention that I recently purchased an 18-200 VR for my D40. This is currently the superzoom of superzooms and is still hard to find in stock many months after its introduction.

As is to be expected, image quality is not the greatest, but it is decent in every aspect... fairly sharp, with relatively low CA and distortion in you stop down a bit. Not as sharp as the 18-135 I was looking at, but VR is one of those things that is practically a must-have if you're going to shoot handheld and use anything over 70 mm.

To give you an idea of how effective VR is, I did manage to shoot at 200 mm handheld at 1/6 sec and 52 mm at 1/2 sec without any blurring.

 

[ddrueding]

To give you an idea of how effective VR is, I did manage to shoot at 200 mm handheld at 1/6 sec and 52 mm at 1/2 sec without any blurring.

That depends on your hands. I can't hold still enough for any shots at any speed with any camera. I have a tabletop tripod that I carry with me at all times and leave the shutter on 2 sec delay.

 

[e_dawg]

True, most of it depends on how steady you are, but you gotta be dead to get crisp shots at 200 mm at 1/6 sec and 52 mm at 1/2 sec without VR. It's still at least 2 stops better than I could do handheld without VR.

 

[Will Rickards]

Help me choose

Okay I've got the money and can wait till around july to buy if need be. So let's say a budget of around $500. Got to have 10x or better zoom. Not really concerned with the megapixels. Highly concerned with the auto mode function in low light (indoor) shots. What would you guys recommend?

I looked at the Consumer Reports (let's not get started on whether they suck or not). They seemed to like the Fufji S6000fd and the Nikon D40. I was also looking at the new Canon S5 IS. I'm thinking the Canon but I've still got a lot of research to do.

 

[Will Rickards]

Canon Powershot S5 IS press release Canon's Page Samples

New review from dpreview.com of Canon TX1 that weird vertical digicam/camcorder gadget. I'll save you the read - they thought the controls were horrible and it is a nice gadget but nothing more.

And dpreview.com review of Nikon D40 for reference.

 

[Will Rickards]

I just took the plunge with the Nikon D40.
It's sample images were just so much better than the others.
Only $525 with free 1GB SD card and shipping.

 

[e_dawg]

Just wanted to write back with an update. I purchased a Canon A710IS recently as a vacation camera, as my Fuji F10 was a little lacking in that it didn't offer me enough manual control over shutter speed, aperture, and flash exposure compensation -- three things I find myself using all the time.

While it doesn't offer the sensitive and low-noise sensor like Fuji does, it does include optical image stabilitzation, which I found to be extremely useful, and about as effective as anything the higher sensitivity sensor that a Fuji might give you.

The vast majority of my indoor pics were shot in shutter priority mode between 1/15 and 1/30 of a second at 200 and 400 ISO. I got great shots that most people could not without an SLR. Even when zoomed in to 100-200 mm.

I was tempted by the significantly cheaper A570IS, and the fact that the A710 is hard to find these days as it is being phased out in favour of the A570. The only differences appear to be 4x zoom, DIGIC III, and much longer continuous video capture ability for the A570 vs 6x zoom, DIGIC II, and shorter continuous video capture for the A710.

For most people, the zoom isn't a deal breaker, and the DIGIC III processor with "face detection" is tempting. However, a critical piece of information about the DIGIC II point & shoot cameras changes everything -- something that only enthusiasts know about. And that, my friends, is the ability to shoot RAW. That's right. RAW capture in a compact P&S. Add to that the ability to add a live histogram to the LCD viewfinder and zebra mode which shows areas of over and under exposure, and you have the ability to transform a lowly compact P&S into a decent substitute for an SLR when you really need to travel light.

And the results? Wow. I am impressed. I can't tell you how valuable the live histogram and zebra modes are in preventing large exposure errors (e.g., a typical situation is when you have a high contrast daylight shot -- bright sky and dark foliage... usually, either all highlights are clipped, or all shadow detail is lost in noise... sometimes both).

The fact that you shoot in RAW allows you a greater margin for correcting exposure and colour balance errors (or just having to take a shot when the contrast exceeds the dynamic range of your camera -- fairly common with outdoor daytime settings) post-processing. I used RAW Therapee to get back half a stop from my supposedly clipped highlights, extract lots more shadow detail, and used curves to save a couple dozen outdoor pics.

After all this goodness, can it get any better than this? Well, yes, actually. I am realizing that the contrast inherent in many sunny outdoor shots is way too much for any digicam, and that a neat way to address this is through HDR or HDRI (high dynamic range). You use auto exposure bracketing to give yourself 3 shots usually, with about 2 EV between them, giving you 4 more stops of dynamic range than you would normally have. Although it's not easy to create good HDR pics combining bracketed exposures, it's a decent tool that can improve or save a few precious shots here and there.

So, how does that affect my camera recommendations? I still love the A710IS for its basic abilities as a camera out of the box, and also love that it can be hacked to add RAW mode, live histogram, and zebra mode as well. But would still like the ability to do AEB. So far, the only one that comes to mind with similar features & performance to the A710 is Canon's S3 IS, which is noticeably bigger (the S5 IS and the G7 use the DIGIC III, which has not been hacked successfully yet). Other than that, it's SLR territory.

And unfortunately, my beloved D40 does not have AEB. Heh, maybe I should have gotten a D50 all along

 

[e_dawg]

Linky for CHDK RAW hack for DIGIC II cameras:

http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/CHDK/FAQ

Links for HDR / HDRI:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/hdr.shtml

http://www.flickr.com/groups/hdr/pool/

http://www.hdrsoft.com/

 

[e_dawg]

You use auto exposure bracketing to give yourself 3 shots usually, with about 2 EV between them, giving you 4 more stops of dynamic range than you would normally have.

Sorry, I misspoke. Most cameras in this price range don't do AEB with 2 EV between shots. So you're going to get 2 more stops of dynamic range with a 3 shot bracket, not 4, but 2 stops is still quite an improvement.

 

[GIANT]

New review from dpreview.com of Canon TX1 that weird vertical digicam/camcorder gadget...

There have been a few situations when I could have used a digital still camera that was narrow / pistol-like, like this Canon TX1 -- situations where I was simultaneously pushing through heavy brush and trying to take photos.

Experienced photo people are generally too acclimated to the conventional wide-body format to accept a mutant format such as this. Videocam people would likely be the first ones that would accept this sort of form factor for a digital still camera, followed by photo newbies.

The wide-body format camera is obviously rooted in the film camera paradigm, where two film containment chambers are situated on opposite sides of the focal plane -- one for the unexposed film on one side of the focal plane and the other for the exposed film on the opposite side of the focal plane.

Is the wide-body format *really* the best still camera form factor for the film-less digital age?

 

[ddrueding]

I would suspect that a pistol-like format would be the most stable, easy to use. Considering that the objective with a pistol and a camera are the same (easy to move around, easy to aim quickly, easy to hold still, precise timing of the trigger) I think it makes a lot of sense.

 

[Will Rickards]

I don't think a format change is practical.

Developing a new format or shape requires a lot of research and development which means money that none of these companies want to spend.

While the current format might not be ideal because it is based on film based cameras, it has evolved over the years and is quite refined. You have a lot of users that are used to this format. You have a lot of engineers that know how to design a product for that format. That domain knowledge should be leveraged not thrown away.

Or maybe there is a truly innovative format that will take the photography world by storm. And we will have someone dominate the market like the iPod does. Doubtful.

 

[Howell]

Or maybe there is a truly innovative format that will take the photography world by storm. And we will have someone dominate the market like the iPod does. Doubtful.

Firstly the iPod is not particularly innovative especially from a mechanical/form factor perspective though it is definitely the most polished product of its kind.

If someone does come up with a new handheld camera form factor I don't think it will be from the established players.

 

[e_dawg]

I would suspect that a pistol-like format would be the most stable, easy to use. Considering that the objective with a pistol and a camera are the same (easy to move around, easy to aim quickly, easy to hold still, precise timing of the trigger) I think it makes a lot of sense.

But can you imagine the problems this could cause? I can see the headlines now:

Mother gets gunned down by police at Anaheim's Disney theme park for allegedly holding Mickey Mouse and two children at gunpoint.

Authorities later discovered that the gun the woman was pointing at Mickey and the two children was, in fact, the new Cannon PowerShot P38 digital camera. Witnesses said they thought the kids just wanted their mother to take a picture of them with Mickey, when she pulled out what appeared to be a weapon from her purse and pointed it at them.

The startled crowd yelled "she's got a gun!", and armed security forces surrounded the foursome. An unnamed source stated that "we repeatedly asked her to drop it, and she said 'no way in hell I'm dropping it... you know how much this thing cost?'"

The Cannon PowerShot P38 retails for $599 US, and is the first point & shoot digital camera to have 20 megapixels of resolution and be shaped like a pistol. When asked if they thought about the consequences of designing a digital camera that looked like a gun, Cannon declined to comment.

 

[ddrueding]

Cute story e_dawg. Of course, it wouldn't have to look like a pistol, just have the traits that make it's design useful. I suspect if would look more like a radar gun than an actual pistol.

 

[fb]

This sounds really interesting. Filter Pledges Crisp Photos in Low Light

 

[Howell]

Cute story e_dawg. Of course, it wouldn't have to look like a pistol, just have the traits that make it's design useful. I suspect if would look more like a radar gun than an actual pistol.

Uh, that looks as much like a pistol as a radar gun. From the distances police have to respond a Barbie held upside down by the torso and the legs folded down looks like a gun.

edawg, I was this close to posting a similar made up story except mine went on to detail the consequences following the results of your story. "Homeowner gunned down by what he thought was a camera."

 

[e_dawg]

This sounds really interesting. Filter Pledges Crisp Photos in Low Light

Very cool. Thanks, fb. It is about time we had something better than the Bayer filter. Some have accused the Bayer filter for causing some of the purple fringing problems you see in high contrast areas. For a common example, see Jeff Keller's excellent "Purple Fringing Tunnel of Doom tests" on DCRP: http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/fuji/finepix_f30-review/gallery.shtml

Why is the Bayer filter accused of this? Because of the Bayer filter's pattern design of 2 green photosites for every red and blue one. Upon such high contrast situations, apparently what happens at the individual photosite level is this (using an extreme example): imagine going from white to black in a matter of the width of a pixel. That means on one side of this transition, all photosites should be near saturation, and on the other side, none should be... or so we thought.

At the transition "line", what you would see on average for every 4 photosites is, 1 green photosite, 1 red photosite, 1 blue photosite, and 1 green photosite. What the sensor outputs, however, is one half of the signal of two green photosites plus the signal from each red and blue photosite adjacent in the 4 photosite quad. What happens is that the sensor has randomly (but on average, probably every two photosites vertically) added only the green photosite from dark side and one red + one blue photosite from the light side, giving you a faint purple (red + blue) transition border that can only be seen because any chroma and luminance contribution from the rest of the photosites is so weak in comparison on the immediate dark side.

And then a lot of people dismiss this theory, saying it is mostly caused by lateral chromatic aberration, which is an optical phenomenon caused by different diffration rates of each colour adding up as light passes through all the lens elements that make up an actual camera lens.

 

[e_dawg]

While I usually associate LCA with cyan-red and blue-yellow 2-colour fringing exclusively with LCA, I can accept high contrast Bayer transitions as a possible cause of purple-fringing.

It could well be that you need certain situaions of cyan-red and blue-yellow LCA to result in a purple fringe: e.g., if the red-cyan diffraction differential were somehow flipped by the lens design, or if the red and blue wavelengths somehow diffracted at the right amounts through various elements with different diffraction rates (ED glass, aspherics vs normal glass) such that they were right next to each other and therefore red + blue combined would be purple, as "normally" cyan and blue are closer together diffraction-wise, and red and yellow are as well.

 

[e_dawg]

edawg, I was this close to posting a similar made up story except mine went on to detail the consequences following the results of your story. "Homeowner gunned down by what he thought was a camera."

I almost didn't post as well, as I had a fleeting worry that Canon would find this post unexpectedly "dugg" all over the net and cause problems for me and Handy. But then I thought it was a free focus group session that answered the question that they were probably wondering at some point, and that they would not be so petty to do such a thing when it was obviously in jest.