Empire in Decline

Chewy509

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So what's the mood in the streets throughout most cities in the US at the moment?

Any serious threat of civil unrest or possible civil war between the two factions? From what's being reported here, that most vocal Trump supporters appear quite fanatical?
 

jtr1962

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So what's the mood in the streets throughout most cities in the US at the moment?

Any serious threat of civil unrest or possible civil war between the two factions? From what's being reported here, that most vocal Trump supporters appear quite fanatical?
So far no major violence, just a few isolated incidents. All we saw yesterday was hordes of people taking to the streets in major US cities peacefully celebrating Biden's victory. Still a bad idea given that they weren't social distancing, even if most wore masks. The entire scene reminded me of the end of Return of the Jedi where the galaxy is celebrating the defeat of the evil emperor. I'm just worried this evil emperor might be right back in 4 years. There's talk of a "resurrection" run in 2024. Maybe I should have everything in order to emigrate to Canada should that happen.
 

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Here's a mood on a street in the U.S.. A few quotes:
  • An Arkansas police chief has resigned after he posted messages on a right-wing social media site that appeared to urge people to assault "Marxist" Democrats over the presidential election, the mayor said.
  • "When this over and Trump is president for 4 more years," one said, "do not forget what these Marxist bastards have tried to do. When you see one in public get in their face do not give them any peace. Throw water on them at restaurants. Push them off sidewalks. Never let them forget they are traitors and have no right to live in this Republic after what they have done."
  • Other screenshots posted by the group appeared to show Holland calling the FBI and the CIA "Marxist" organizations working to overthrow the United States. "Hang all these Marxist Democrats now," the message said.
America, Great Again! Trump put the "Hate" in "Great".
 

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Handruin

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It's trump...of course he's salty he lost and has to do everything/anything to fundraise before he's let go from his job.
 

sedrosken

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I'm just worried this evil emperor might be right back in 4 years. There's talk of a "resurrection" run in 2024. Maybe I should have everything in order to emigrate to Canada should that happen.
I'd agree with you and prepare myself, but most countries immigration policies require you actually bring something to the table, and I really don't, so... I guess I'm stuck.

I'll tell you right now that if Trump wins again in 2024 he's going to go full megalomaniac. Then again, I'm not sure he won't go full megalomaniac in the next months and seize power by force. It seems to be what he's gearing up for.
 

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No problem sedrosken, study some data analysis ornsimilar if that interests you and move to Sweden or wherever you like. You have 4 years, I hope.

Free online courses:

SQL Server Developer Edition is free, there is ALOT of information online, watch a bit of Brent Ozar on Youtube. He also have a few sessions with carreer advices.
 

Handruin

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I'd agree with you and prepare myself, but most countries immigration policies require you actually bring something to the table, and I really don't, so... I guess I'm stuck.

I'll tell you right now that if Trump wins again in 2024 he's going to go full megalomaniac. Then again, I'm not sure he won't go full megalomaniac in the next months and seize power by force. It seems to be what he's gearing up for.
I find this notion of running away to another country kind of a knee-jerk reaction that needs a calmer head. I mean, go to a beautiful country like Sweden if you want to, but don't run away when things get difficult. The US landscape is physically enormous and diverse. The culture, climate, and government structure where you live now doesn't entirely represent the US even if the overarching federal climate is a disaster. Perhaps you should consider first moving to a new state that reflects and upholds the values you desire. Focus your time and energy there to better yourself and the communities there. Work to help vote and advocate for improvements both locally and nationwide.
 

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I agree with you, the times have changed, even Utah has forbidden slavery. More and more conservative values goes away.
It's actually the Democrats that were big into slave ownership and denying African Americans their rights back in the day.
 

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I'm surprised how close it has become... What's being reported here in Oz, is that Biden pretty much has won it (assuming he wins NV).
However lots of reports of claims that Trump's allies and even himself will launch legal action over various aspects of vote counting, etc.
The polls were wrong again, just like in 2016, while they predicted Biden would win comfortably it was actually pretty close. Now what is interesting is there really wasn't a big blue wave this time like there was for the House midterms in 2018. In fact the Republicans have picked up several House seats (many being women). And now in the Senate race, with the Republicans leading 50 seats to 48, the Dems need to win both Georgia runoff elections in January, to then use Kamala as the tie breaker.
 

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Good news, the last USA election was the most secure, ever.

 

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Fake News, FB! From https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/11/report-white-house-pressuring-cisa-to-stop-debunking-election-nonsense:
While the page was vague on what rumor it was debunking here, Krebs was far more explicit on his personal Twitter account. Krebs denounced an unproven rumor mentioned on Fox News this week that the government had a secret supercomputer called Hammer that it used to steal the 2012 election for Barack Obama and did the same thing for Joe Biden in 2020.​
"This is not a real thing," Krebs tweeted.​
A source told Reuters the White House was particularly angry that CISA had debunked this claim.

A top-secret "supercomputer" that stole the election for Joe Biden, but somehow forgot to steal the senate. Not-so-super-computer.

Fox News, a wholly-owned subsidiary of the repugnican party, is no longer right-wing enough for tRump, so he and his followers have switched to Newsmax and "One America", as sources of the real, true (fake, Big Lie) news. Unencumbered by facts.
 

jtr1962

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If there's any fraud here, I would say it's on the part of GOP voters. I'm totally shocked Trump got as many votes as he did, and also that the GOP gained seats in the House. Maybe you had a lot of dead GOP voters voting. Or perhaps some people from the Sturgis motorcycle rally voted, shaved off their beards, and voted again. Given Trump's horrible handling of the pandemic, plus the GOP devolving into a bunch of racists, white supremacists, conspiracy theorists, and religious whack jobs, it's amazing as many people voted for them as the results show. Or perhaps they didn't. Usually when you claim the other side is doing something it's because you're doing the same exact thing yourself. Even if that happened, so many people were still against Trump that the fake GOP votes weren't enough to get him re-elected.
 

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Or a significant amount of citizens decided they didn't want to go down the Socialist/Marxist path that the far left of the Democrat party represents.
 

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Or a significant amount of citizens decided they didn't want to go down the Socialist/Marxist path that the far left of the Democrat party represents.
I do find the talking point of Socialism and Marxism interesting and it is a common theme from many Republicans/conservatives I've chatted with. Your point suggests that the right feels the current Democratic party that is soon to take office is at the far left when really it's more at the center.

A true Socialist/Marxist agenda would be much, much different than what's being offered today. The notable Democrats farthest to the left are probably Bernie and AOC to name couple. Both of them are Democratic Socialists but still aren't anywhere near far left that a full-on Socialistic society would represent. At least not to the same dramatic impact if we compared what the far-right/alt-right represents. The DS agenda is left of center, sure, but it does not represent straight Socialism. It's more of a reformed Capitalism that favors the people. Basically not letting the entirety of big corporate bureaucracies control our society and people. Social/economical change should be represented by those who are most affected by it.
 

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Or a significant amount of citizens decided they didn't want to go down the Socialist/Marxist path that the far left of the Democrat party represents.
Except that's not even remotely true. The far left of the Democratic party gets a lot of press coverage but most of their ideas will never make through even a Congress controlled by their party. There was a time in the 1960s and 1970s when the Democrats were giving working people heavy tax hikes. The end result was Reagan. I think they've learned that lesson. Now they only talk about tax hikes on the rich, meaning those making over $400K. Fine by me. So is Warren's wealth tax on wealth over $50 million. That will affect only about 75,000 households. I don't see why something like that shouldn't have a huge majority support from both parties. Ditto for forgiving student loans. The GOP shouldn't be against that but they are because some of their supporters run illegitimate collection agencies which make a small fortune on people who had the misfortune of defaulting on their loans. They couldn't pay, and now with all the added fees they'll be paying until they die even if they get a job.

Exactly what is the GOP doing that's so wonderful for ordinary people? A little shitty tax cut which for most people was under $1,000 a year? People making under about $30K shouldn't pay a dime in taxes, including FICA tax. Those making $100K and under should be paying much less. How did that corporate tax cut work out? It was supposed to free up money so corporations could give their workers nice raises and/or lower prices. Neither happened. Nobody I know got anything beyond a typical cost of living raise. Instead, the corporations used the tax savings to buy back stock. How did that America first stuff turn out? Now goods from China cost more thanks to the tariffs. Our former allies consider us a laughing stock. That's not even getting into all the science denial which results in no action on climate change, and the horrible response to the pandemic. Or the fact a large segment of the GOP seems hell bent on turning the USA into a Christian theocracy. Not to mention this huge spectacle of refusing to accept defeat and not giving Biden access to security briefings, or otherwise helping with the transition. I'm supposed to respect this????? This is fascist level stuff, not the kind of things you expect in a normal democracy.

So tell me, exactly what does today's GOP offer to anyone except the rich, fascists, or religious fanatics? The latter was probably the bulk of their vote since evangelical Christians are a one issue (i.e. anti-abortion) voting base. I say this as a former mostly GOP voter who at one time saw the Republicans as a sane, intelligent alternative to Democrats who perpetuated programs which kept a large segment of the population dependent upon government. Clinton fixed a lot of that. Now they're insane, starting with their leader. The US just narrowly avoided going down the path of Nazi Germany. I hope enough sanity returns by 2024 so that we have two normal candidates running, not another Trump or someone like him.

For my part I'm doing my best to make sure Trump followers get hit where it hurts, in the wallet. I convinced a friend of mine to no longer do business with someone who he said was a vehement Trump supporter. Without my friend it's highly likely this person will go out of business. If everyone does this it will be toxic in the future to support someone like Trump.
 
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DrunkenBastard

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For my part I'm doing my best to make sure Trump followers get hit where it hurts, in the wallet. I convinced a friend of mine to no longer do business with someone who he said was a vehement Trump supporter. Without my friend it's highly likely this person will go out of business. If everyone does this it will be toxic in the future to support someone like Trump.
This is sad cancel culture in action. That you would punish someone for their political leanings, when it has nothing to do with the product or service that business provides. You are saying that person must agree with you or hes out on the street with his family. That's really sad morally imo.

You talk about Nazi Germany but its your actions that seem to follow their processes.
 
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DrunkenBastard

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I do find the talking point of Socialism and Marxism interesting and it is a common theme from many Republicans/conservatives I've chatted with. Your point suggests that the right feels the current Democratic party that is soon to take office is at the far left when really it's more at the center.

A true Socialist/Marxist agenda would be much, much different than what's being offered today. The notable Democrats farthest to the left are probably Bernie and AOC to name couple. Both of them are Democratic Socialists but still aren't anywhere near far left that a full-on Socialistic society would represent. At least not to the same dramatic impact if we compared what the far-right/alt-right represents. The DS agenda is left of center, sure, but it does not represent straight Socialism. It's more of a reformed Capitalism that favors the people. Basically not letting the entirety of big corporate bureaucracies control our society and people. Social/economical change should be represented by those who are most affected by it.
No, I would agree with you that Biden represents the middle of the party. It's the Bernies, AOCs etc that represent more of the extreme left. With the Senate race being so tight that does help Biden in that Bernie and Warren cant take risks with their seats and move to Cabinet positions. I think Kamala tends to the left, and no doubt she'll be President once Joe is wheeled off to the old folks home.

I think we can see especially in Florida that people from Venezuela and Cuba and other regimes voted against the thin edge of the Socialist wedge that they have lived through.
 

jtr1962

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This is sad cancel culture in action. That you would punish someone for their political leanings, when it has nothing to do with the product or service that business provides. You are saying that person must agree with you or hes out on the street with his family. That's really sad morally imo.

You talk about Nazi Germany but its your actions that seem to follow their processes.
No, I'm not saying that at all. We're basically a centrist nation, and most people are fine with views that are somewhat left or right of center. Prior to the Trump era, I would never even think of boycotting a business for their political leanings, even if I didn't agree with them, because in the end their views weren't something I saw as harmful to the country. Now along comes Trump. Suddenly racism, white supremacy, religious extremism, voter suppression in Democratic cities, xenophobia, conspiracy theories, plus a whole bunch of other dangerous things, are OK. Just one or two of these things represents an extreme threat to the country. All of them heads us down a path I'd rather not think about. Then you have science denial which is hurting me long-term by our failure to fight climate change, and short term by failing to protect me from a highly contagious, dangerous disease. On top of that you have Trump actively refusing to help "poorly run Democratic states", even though those are net donor states nationally. The bottom line is a second Trump term couldn't end well. The first one didn't even end well.

As a person who has a scientific and engineering background, the total ignorance of basic facts and established science, along with the general distrust of experts, is the thing I find most disconcerting. Instead we substitute anecdotes and conspiracy theories for facts. So yes, I see anyone who supports this to be a traitor to our country and not deserving of my business. And if they end up on the street, remember exactly how they feel about those who were in that position. Oh, they're losers. If they weren't lazy this wouldn't have happened to them, and on and on. I'm sick to death of it. I still think we should take care of their kids in foster care or something. I don't want children ending up on the streets because of their parents' political leanings.

You also need to distinguish between true socialism, which most Americans, me included, would never espouse, versus a safety net. National health insurance, unemployment insurance, welfare, and similar programs all recognize that there is an element of luck in modern economies. A person can do everything right and still not make it. Also, there's far more to happiness than a big paycheck or the DOW going up. Capitalism with some socialist elements to account for lack of luck is the best balance to ensure long-term health and general prosperity.

By the way, it's really interesting watching the GOP talking heads. Last time they were going on and on about how Democrats were sore losers. Whatever Hillary may have done then, at least she conceded the next day, and most of her supporters accepted that Trump was the new President even if they didn't like it. Now you have the President and his supporters crying how the election was stolen. I actually understand their reasoning. In their minds, if you voted for Democrats you support socialism, aren't a patriotic, "real" American, and therefore your vote shouldn't count. They probably think the true election results should by 71+ million for Trump and 0 for Biden. If you don't see something seriously wrong with today's GOP and its supporters I don't know that I can do anything to convince you otherwise.
 

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In 2000 Al Gore waited until December 13th to concede, after the Supreme Court ruled on the Florida recount case. There is nothing inherently "wrong" with letting the process run its course.

And this time around Hillary told Biden specifically not to concede for any reason:


"“Joe Biden should not concede under any circumstances, because I think this is going to drag out, and eventually I do believe he will win if we don't give an inch, and if we are as focused and relentless as the other side is,” Clinton said in an interview with her former communications director Jennifer Palmieri for Showtime's “The Circus,” which released a clip Tuesday."
 

jtr1962

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Fine, let Trump wait until all the court cases are decided or thrown out before conceding, even though none of them have the potential to flip even one state, let alone the election. Even if he refuses to concede, which is merely a formality, he should at least be aiding the transition for the good of the country. Except he doesn't care about the country, and neither apparently does most of his party when with a few exceptions, all you here is crickets. It's funny how he's trying so hard to keep a job he really has no interest in actually performing. He's been mostly MIA with the pandemic from day one. His only notable accomplishment was Operation Warp Speed, which in fairness I give him credit for.

I'm pretty sure Hillary meant not to concede until all the absentee ballots were counted for obvious reasons. If you went by the vote tally on election night, Trump would have won but many votes weren't counted. Given the logistics of counting all those absentee ballots, there's no way Biden could have conceded soon after the election, nor would I have expected Trump to concede even if Biden was winning. It was Trump who kept putting out the idea that there has to be a winner on election night. I guess he forgot about the 2000 election. Also funny how he wanted counting absentee ballots stopped in the states where Biden was catching up to him, but not in the states where he was catching up to Biden, like Arizona. I fully expected we might not know the results of this election for a week or more. That's fine. I'd rather we accurately tally votes than disenfranchise voters.
 

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This is sad cancel culture in action. That you would punish someone for their political leanings, when it has nothing to do with the product or service that business provides. You are saying that person must agree with you or hes out on the street with his family. That's really sad morally imo.

You talk about Nazi Germany but its your actions that seem to follow their processes.
Like trump using his platform to advocate people cancel buying from goodyear? Or suggest he's never eating an oreo again? Scots should boycott Glenfiddich? People should cancel HBO? People should boycott all Apple products?

There's plenty more examples from trump regarding cancel culture if you don't support him and his agenda. Seems like a double standard to be upset with jtr for this behavior when trump normalizes it.
 

jtr1962

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Like trump using his platform to advocate people cancel buying from goodyear? Or suggest he's never eating an oreo again? Scots should boycott Glenfiddich? People should cancel HBO? People should boycott all Apple products?

There's plenty more examples from trump regarding cancel culture if you don't support him and his agenda. Seems like a double standard to be upset with jtr for this behavior when trump normalizes it.
What about Trump's travel ban from Muslim countries, even though it's only the Muslim extremists who cause problems, while at the same time he appointed a Christian religious extremist to the Supreme Court! I guess religious extremists are OK if they happen to be from a religion you like. Trump does so much of what he accuses the left of doing that it isn't even funny. I'll be glad when this circus is finally over on January 20. Hopefully the case against Trump in NY or somewhere else will prevail and that will be the last we see of his influence. Maybe Putin can take him in as a refugee if he flees the country to avoid jail time.
 

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I'm not religious but these pieces make a good case for Trump being the devil:




Now he's getting his followers to do his dirty work for him:


Biden called them "The Poor Boys" in a slip of the tongue but it's actually not far from the truth. When the shine wears off Trump for them, they'll find they wasted the last four years of their lives blindly following someone who is at best a snake oil salesman, at worst someone on par with figures like Hitler or Stalin. I wouldn't want to be Trump on the day his followers turn on him. He'll need eyes in the back of his head for the rest of his life.
 

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Biden called them "The Poor Boys" in a slip of the tongue but it's actually not far from the truth. When the shine wears off Trump for them, they'll find they wasted the last four years of their lives blindly following someone who is at best a snake oil salesman, at worst someone on par with figures like Hitler or Stalin. I wouldn't want to be Trump on the day his followers turn on him. He'll need eyes in the back of his head for the rest of his life.
That's a possibility, but I believe it is more likely that they would follow him blindly whatever he says or does. They subscribe to the snake oil, and all of his thousands of lies - little, big, or middle-sized. They're the Exalted Knights of the KKK, Making America White Again! They actually believe that he cares about their wretched lives, when all he really cares about is trying to prop up his crumbling financial "empire" by using all of the graft/grift powers available to him in the office of President.

Oh, and when he leaves office, if his creditors come after him to collect his debts, e.g. these $340 million in loans, he'll blame it on the "international Jewish banking conspiracy" (that finally got weary of his financial "shell games").
 
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Thanks for the link. I was pretty sure I didn't even need to read it to know this whole voter fraud thing is ridiculous. It's classic trump trying to set the narrative months in advance then with bold confident claims then trying to refer back on them.

Occam's razor really applies here.
 

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I am curious here, if Trump, one of the (soon tobbe not) most powerful men on the earth predicted fraud many months in advance. Why did he not do anything to prevent it (beside of reducing the number of mailboxes in USA?)

And apparently Lindsey Graham tried to manipulate the outcome, again after the election... Is that not fraudulent behaviour? An lastly, I also do not understand why so many republican states would manipulate the election to benefit the democrats?

 

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This is the database that is referenced from that PDF:

That org is interesting. They are staffed pretty heavily conservative and acknowledged support for trump.

Also:
The Heritage Foundation rejects the scientific consensus on climate change.[70][71] The Heritage Foundation is one of many climate change denial organizations that have been funded by ExxonMobil.[70][72] The Heritage Foundation strongly criticized the Kyoto Agreement, which was intended to curb climate change, saying American participation in the treaty would "result in lower economic growth in every state and nearly every sector of the economy."[73] The Heritage Foundation projected that the 2009 cap-and-trade bill, the American Clean Energy and Security Act, would result in a cost of $1,870 per family in 2025 and $6,800 by 2035; on the other hand, the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office projected that it would only cost the average family $175 in 2020.[74]
 

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SNL would be hard pressed to do better than this:

 

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But nobody has mentioned yet yesterday's big news about Rude-y: 1605890088295.png



“Rudy dyed his hair, but his head is challenging the results.” — STEPHEN COLBERT
 

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jtr1962

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I think they're 0 for 29 or 0 for 30 at this point. These cases are completely baseless, especially considering in most cases they want to throw out only votes in primarily Democratic counties. If you're going to have new criteria for signature matching or other stuff, it has to be applied uniformly across the state, not just in places where it will benefit you. Besides, US law prohibits changing election rules during or after election. Fact is Joe Biden will be President on January 20 and Trump will leave, escorted by Secret Service if need be. Nothing he does is going to change that.

This is also odd that he's fighting so hard to keep a job he seemingly has zero interest in actually performing.
 
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