Empire in Decline

sedrosken

Allergic to Sunlight
Joined
Nov 20, 2013
Messages
1,125
Location
The Sticks
I am very concerned about the implications that he may attempt to implement martial law to call for a second vote in battleground states, especially since it'd likely intimidate just enough democrats into not voting to give him the elections in those states.
 

fb

Storage is cool
Joined
Jan 31, 2003
Messages
674
Location
Östersund, Sweden
Seems like the liars are backing off a little bit?


By the way, Putin made a rather smart move this week. I wonder if USA is getting one of these laws before jan 20?

And of course, a nice christmas gift for all white supremacists...
 
Last edited:

Handruin

Administrator
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
13,363
Location
USA
So, uh...interesting recorded phone call eh? I assume this will be reframed as another "perfect" call again? This one is pretty damning but I doubt the GOP has a backbone to do anything about it. What a disgusting human.

 

jtr1962

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 25, 2002
Messages
3,980
Location
Flushing, New York
You know what they say, right? Give someone like Trump enough rope, and they'll eventually hang themselves. For all the talk of him running again in 2024, it's going to be all he can do just to stay out of jail once he leaves office. Ditto for his three oldest kids. Maybe they'll turn one of the apartments in Trump Tower into a high-security jail cell for him and his kids.
 

Handruin

Administrator
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
13,363
Location
USA
One can only hope criminal charges chase and catch him for the rest of his career and life.
 

fb

Storage is cool
Joined
Jan 31, 2003
Messages
674
Location
Östersund, Sweden
One positive thing: it looks like Trump can feel some kind of regret after all.
 

Handruin

Administrator
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
13,363
Location
USA
I'm watching live feeds. This is trumps America at its finest. Where is the armed police tear gassing and rubber bulleting for these terrorists?
 

jtr1962

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 25, 2002
Messages
3,980
Location
Flushing, New York
This is supposedly the party of law and order. Nothing the BLM protesters or Antifa did is even close to this. We're looking at sedition. Those involved should be tried, found guilty, and hanged. That includes President Trump himself.
 

fb

Storage is cool
Joined
Jan 31, 2003
Messages
674
Location
Östersund, Sweden
I don't get it, the Police can clear out a more or less peacful demonstration so Trump could take a pic in front of the church, but they can't protect the Capitol?
 

Handruin

Administrator
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
13,363
Location
USA
That's a big question I've also had as well as many other's wondering where they were and also why some were taking selfies with the rioting terrorists.
 

DrunkenBastard

Storage is cool
Joined
Jan 21, 2002
Messages
768
Location
on the floor
This is supposedly the party of law and order. Nothing the BLM protesters or Antifa did is even close to this.
You must be joking, BLM and antifa were burning and looting for months last year, throughout the US, this is just San Francisco as an example:

"Manheimer said about 200 businesses were looted or vandalized and 137 arson fires were set during a period in which “numerous” shootings also occurred throughout the city. One killing was related to the incidents of looting, and two federal security guards were shot outside the Ronald V. Dellums Federal Building. One of the guards, David Patrick Underwood, was killed."


This seems like a false equivalence?
 

jtr1962

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 25, 2002
Messages
3,980
Location
Flushing, New York
You must be joking, BLM and antifa were burning and looting for months last year, throughout the US, this is just San Francisco as an example:

"Manheimer said about 200 businesses were looted or vandalized and 137 arson fires were set during a period in which “numerous” shootings also occurred throughout the city. One killing was related to the incidents of looting, and two federal security guards were shot outside the Ronald V. Dellums Federal Building. One of the guards, David Patrick Underwood, was killed."


This seems like a false equivalence?
And you do know a fair amount of these illegal activities were done by far right groups trying to discredit the peaceful BLM protesters? Others were done by career criminals who simply took advantage of the situation. Little or none of it was done by the same BLM protesters who were out earlier in the day. Law enforcement continually noted in all cases a different set of faces came in when things went downhill. Also, 200 businesses looted in San Francisco is hardly a big deal when you have over 35,000 businesses in the city. It's barely over half a percent. The looting and rioting was hardly the end of society that Trump kept saying it was, but never fail to milk anything if it helps you.

Besides that, you're equating what was property damage, regardless of who did it, with attempted sedition and domestic terrorism, which is what happened on the 6th. Sure, I absolutely want looters and vandals punished, whatever their political stripe. However, let's not lose sight of the fact that what happened on the 6th was a direct threat to our democracy. The other things weren't. They were lawless acts, nothing more.

Second, you do know BLM at least had a legitimate gripe, namely the fact black and brown people are treated like criminals by police even when they aren't? If a group of black and brown people did the same things these mostly white people did on the 6th, we probably would have had a massacre on the scale of Tiananmen Square by the police. What was the gripe of the people storming the Capitol? Their guy lost? So what? Every election has a winner and loser. When you lose, you accept it, move on, and try to do better next time. Listening to some of these people, their level of entitlement was off the charts. "Oh, the Democrats are socialists, we can't let them win at any cost." So the people who might support Democratic policies don't get their vote counted? Why even bother having elections if this is how you think? In the end this is probably more about a bunch of people with above average income and assets worried they might have to pay more in taxes. Meanwhile, the working class folks who joined them would ironically do better under the Democrats. Remember it was like pulling teeth to get Mitch McConnell to even agree to another $600 payment.

Third, I'm in utter disbelief given what has happened since election day that anyone is even trying to downplay this as anything less than the domestic terrorism it was. This wasn't riots or looting. It was an attempted, admittedly very poorly planned, coup d'etat. President Trump and his enablers have been building toward an attempted coup from even before the election. This was all planned out. Tell your supporters to vote in person knowing the other side will mostly vote by mail because of fears of covid. Pass laws which keep the swing states from counting mail-in ballots until after the election, knowing that this will put your side way ahead until those ballots start getting counted. Then claim the election was stolen from you when your lead dwindles, even evaporates, over the next few days. After that do all the crap that was done after election day, including offering up as your only "proof" of election fraud the fact lots of people think the election was stolen. Of course they do, because that was the BS this President pushed on them all year. Circular reasoning at its finest. Finally, have a farting Rudy Giuliani as your lawyer. This is a man I once respected for helping to clean up crime in the city, and lead it after 9/11. But like everything else Trump touches, he turned to shit.

Consider that Pence, a man who has been loyal to Trump to a fault, was thrown under the bus by him yesterday. That's Trump. You're only of use to him until you aren't, then he discards you like a piece of trash. This is the kind of person you want to support? We NYers knew what he was. I'm amazed the rest of the country fell for it.

Be happy he didn't win, unless of course you would have liked living in a country like Nazi Germany. 2020 would have been the last free elections the US would ever have had if Trump had won. Hopefully Trump will be spending the rest of his life looking out of a jail cell, along with his three oldest children. Also, all the members of Congress who voted in favor of upholding the objections to AZ and PA need to be removed, and barred from ever running for any elected office again. So do all of Trump's other enablers. History will be the final judge, but I bet he goes down as the worst President ever.
 
Last edited:

jtr1962

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 25, 2002
Messages
3,980
Location
Flushing, New York
That's a big question I've also had as well as many other's wondering where they were and also why some were taking selfies with the rioting terrorists.
Because many of those same LEOs are Trump supporters. We had the same thing in NY. Trump supporters disrupted traffic with parades of big, obnoxious SUVs and pickups, many with obscured license plates, and the NYPD did squat.



Again, this is the party of law-and-order, but they feel entitled to break any law they want.

Incidentally, the head of the Patrolmen's Benevolent Association, Pat Lynch, endorsed Trump. Let's see how well that ages in light of January 6.

Ironically, in my comments to the first article over there I said this: "If he loses, he'll contest the election results, and use his followers to stage a coup d'etat."

It almost happened.
 

DrunkenBastard

Storage is cool
Joined
Jan 21, 2002
Messages
768
Location
on the floor
Ultimately, in the Capital on Wed, some windows were broken, a few guys tried to steal some podiums etc. No businesses were destroyed, no buildings were torched, no cops were murdered. Property crimes. Should people be jailed for their actions? Juries will decide.

"The looting and rioting was hardly the end of society that Trump kept saying it was, but never fail to milk anything if it helps you."

If the looting and rioting from the protests in 2020 was hardly the end of society as you say, then Wednesdays events were a tiny fraction of that minimal impact. Yet here you are ranting that its sedition and the end of democracy.
 

jtr1962

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 25, 2002
Messages
3,980
Location
Flushing, New York
Ultimately, in the Capital on Wed, some windows were broken, a few guys tried to steal some podiums etc. No businesses were destroyed, no buildings were torched, no cops were murdered. Property crimes. Should people be jailed for their actions? Juries will decide.

"The looting and rioting was hardly the end of society that Trump kept saying it was, but never fail to milk anything if it helps you."

If the looting and rioting from the protests in 2020 was hardly the end of society as you say, then Wednesdays events were a tiny fraction of that minimal impact. Yet here you are ranting that its sedition and the end of democracy.
4 people died, one by gun shot, three by medical events.

Materially, the impact of what happened Wednesday was small. However, the intent wasn't, regardless of the end result. Listen to what Trump and Giuliani said before it happened. However poorly this was thought out, it was an attempted coup. It was also trespassing on federal property, a very serious crime. This isn't like breaking into Best Buy and taking a few TVs. Federal property was vandalized. None other than Trump made that punishable by up to 10 years in jail when people were vandalizing statues. Now that law will come back to bite his supporters in the ass.

They found pipe bombs and molotov cocktails. The intent was there to bomb and burn the building, perhaps even to kill members of Congress they didn't like. The fact none of this succeeded is more a case of sheer luck and poor planning. The death threats against the Michigan governor didn't succeed either, but you can bet the people who planned it will be put away for a very long time. Same thing here. Intent matters in a court of law just as much as end results. I'm stunned at your attitude here. I really am. You're not even beginning to grasp the gravity of what happened. What if they had destroyed the state ballots? What if they had killed Congress people? This is banana republic level shit.
 

Chewy509

Wotty wot wot.
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
3,172
Location
Gold Coast Hinterland, Australia
I just hope all of you stay safe and out of harms way... Things are looking to get a little worse before they get better.

For those following, which is the most likely outcome?
1. 2nd impeachment?
2. 25th amendment?
3. nothing and hope the place doesn't get torched?
 

jtr1962

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 25, 2002
Messages
3,980
Location
Flushing, New York
And by the way, this isn't a D versus R debate. If this election had been, say, Romney or Kasich versus Biden, I could fully understand a vote for one of the former. I might even have gone that way. I can't understand a vote for a wannabe mentally unstable autocrat of either party who already demonstrated that he's profoundly incompetent and unfit to lead the country. I don't get the cult following of this guy. I really don't. He's a self-centered narcissist whose only question to everything is what's in it for me?
 

jtr1962

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 25, 2002
Messages
3,980
Location
Flushing, New York
I just hope all of you stay safe and out of harms way... Things are looking to get a little worse before they get better.

For those following, which is the most likely outcome?
1. 2nd impeachment?
2. 25th amendment?
3. nothing and hope the place doesn't get torched?
1. Probably not enough time, and almost certainly not enough votes to remove him from office if he is impeached. Removal from office requires a 2/3rds majority in both the Senate and House.
2. So far Pence doesn't look like he's interested, and the votes might not be there.
3. The threat of 1 or 2 might be enough to keep him in line for another 12+ days. I hope.

Failing that, maybe a hypothetical #4 where the President is declared a danger to himself or others by one or more mental health professionals, then involuntarily committed for observation. Not sure how long they can hold him, but my guess is 10 or 12 days might be possible. Pence would assume the Presidency until Trump returned, probably grant him a pardon as well.

#5 would be Trump resigning, but anyone who knows his character knows this will never happen.
 
Last edited:

jtr1962

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 25, 2002
Messages
3,980
Location
Flushing, New York
This is huge:


McConnell has been practically a lapdog to Trump since day one. He's jumping ship. I suspect a lot of other Senate Republicans who respect him will do the same. Maybe the votes would be there to remove Trump from office if it comes down to impeachment.
 

sedrosken

Allergic to Sunlight
Joined
Nov 20, 2013
Messages
1,125
Location
The Sticks
He's clearly reading from a teleprompter, it's not his style. He's terrified of what's going to happen to him -- it was probably the threat of a second impeachment or the invocation of the 25th amendment that nudged him into making this address. This is as close to a real concession as we're going to get out of him.

Unfortunately on the home front, seems most people (the loonies who already supported Trump, anyway) are buying the "rioters are antifa/blm plants" story. There's a small minority who walk in looking a little shell-shocked, and I had a conversation with one -- I asked if they'd heard about the mess that happened on the sixth (we can all agree on that much, at least -- 'mess' is the kindest word for it) and they nodded, "Oh, I heard alright. He's... really crazy, isn't he?"

There might be some hope for some of them after all.
 

fb

Storage is cool
Joined
Jan 31, 2003
Messages
674
Location
Östersund, Sweden
Well, you got a bunch of Rep lawmakers that participated.

And the dead terrorists were all crazy Trump supporters? So far not many Dems have showed up on the pics?

I have a friend who lives in Washington DC (Trump fanatic) and he would probably still believe it was antifa, since it's not confirmed on oan or newsmax. (most likely, I have not checked).
 

fb

Storage is cool
Joined
Jan 31, 2003
Messages
674
Location
Östersund, Sweden
Welly well well... looks like Trump+Giuliani were calling their Rep friends while they were under attack, but not to ask if they were safe.

 

jtr1962

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 25, 2002
Messages
3,980
Location
Flushing, New York
Of course some of them are pushing the narrative that this was Antifa dressed up as MAGAs. You accuse others of what you're guilty of yourself. It's the oldest trick in the book. How about the known fact that many of the rioters and looters were from right-wing groups trying to discredit BLM? Or since they're talking about voter fraud and stolen elections, let's maybe look at the active voter suppression in places like Texas, especially limiting drop boxes at the last minute to one per county in the middle of a pandemic. If Trump supporters claim the election was stolen from them, which over 60 cases have proven false, what about the very real disenfranchisement of people in red states? The GOP has even admitted at times that if everyone voted they would win a lot fewer elections.

If they're questioning the integrity of the vote in swing states, why aren't they claiming the elections they won in those states were rigged also? If the left rigged this election, they did a really piss poor job of it. Why did they lose seats in the House? Why did it take a runoff election to get control of the Senate (and of course some are calling the Georgia runoff elections rigged as well)?
 

fb

Storage is cool
Joined
Jan 31, 2003
Messages
674
Location
Östersund, Sweden

The article above was confirmed to be completely true, when Lindsey Graham doesn't seenthe need to hold Trump responsible, since it would devide the country even more?

At least Pence seems to keep the door open, even if it is just because he might have gotten executed by the lunatics.
 

fb

Storage is cool
Joined
Jan 31, 2003
Messages
674
Location
Östersund, Sweden
Sorry tim, that was not good. I did not know that.

Either way, I hope the second impeachment goes through even if it happens after his exit, so he is forbidden to run for office again and the US citizens don't have to use their tax dollars to fund his security and pension.
 

Chewy509

Wotty wot wot.
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
3,172
Location
Gold Coast Hinterland, Australia
Looks like (as reported here), 2nd impeachment may be tabled and voted on in the House tomorrow (13-Jan), with Senate vote likely one week later.

The question moving forward, if impeachment is not tabled or fails, how likely will Trump contest the next election or have one of his very close family members do likewise (with the family member being a puppet for Donald Trump)?

Has there been any reporting on what International views on the current situation and what their reactions have been? I've seen speculation that DPRK (Nth Korea) is on heightened response levels with possible Nuclear response, but I don't place a lot of faith in the accuracy of those reports. Likewise any rumbling from China or Russia (from credible sources)?

Sources:
 

time

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 18, 2002
Messages
4,932
Location
Brisbane, Oz
Without impeachment progressing to a conviction, which has never happened to a president because it requires a 2/3 Senate majority, there cannot be a punishment, so no way to block him from running for office again.

Most safeguards and protections in the US system rely on people having a sense of shame - Nixon resigned rather than face impeachment. You can see how this might be a problem with Trump.
 

Handruin

Administrator
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
13,363
Location
USA
True, this is a bit of posturing and will mainly just be written into history books of bringing a second round with a single article of impeachment even if they do not vote to do anything. The alternative is to do nothing which also sends a bad message.
 

fb

Storage is cool
Joined
Jan 31, 2003
Messages
674
Location
Östersund, Sweden
One thing that hurts the most is perhaps that the chashflow seems to stop, for example:

 
Last edited:

jtr1962

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 25, 2002
Messages
3,980
Location
Flushing, New York
Stopping the cash flow is the best way to end this. Without donations, the fringe elements of the GOP can't win elections. That might encourage the Republican voters to select more mainstream candidates in their primaries, or simply get used to losing elections.
 

jtr1962

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 25, 2002
Messages
3,980
Location
Flushing, New York
There's also the 14th Amendment, Section 3:

No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any state, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any state legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any state, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

This sounds to me like they could remove from office and bar from ever running for office again not only the President, but the members of Congress who helped perpetuate his lies. Congress might face a big housecleaning in 2021, with everyone on this list going.
 

Newtun

Storage is nice
Joined
Nov 21, 2002
Messages
423
Location
Virginia
Stopping the cash flow is the best way to end this.
Since Trump's defeat, he has a new cash flow source - "Stop the Steal" fundraising. Just get his loyal supporters to send him their hard-earned money. Some of it may actually go to prop up his own attempts to steal the election, which have been numerous, bereft of hard evidence, and futile. And some (most?) may go to support his lifestyle of the rich and famous. That fundraising is one Steal he doesn't want to Stop.
 
Top