Ever wanted to know the thoughts of car fans?

[mubs]

Blake, thanks for the detailed info!

Basically, I shopped around like crazy, calling on the phone. The dealer wanted to replace the assembly + motor for ~ $340+. All others, including AAA approved, said labor would range from ~ $90 to $200, with parts extra, and no clue as to how much the parts would be.

Finally one guy said I should call the people that replace auto glass (windshields, windows) as they would have the tools to do the job. The first guy I called from the yellow pages surprised me by being very precise; "don't need motor, get the assembly from the dealer, I'll put it in for $50 labor". And he and his helper did too. Two immigrant guys from the Middle-East, working out of a small room in an automotive repair complex. I was very happy with the quality of the work. He needed a helper because one of his hands was in a sling; he'd slashed it the week before and had to have surgery to fix it.

One other bizarre problem I had with this car is that the power lock on the rear left door stopped working 3 years ago; I had to manually lock/unlock it. About 2 months ago, it began to work again on its own. Go figure!

 

[e_dawg]

Is a 2.5L 4-cyl any/marginally/signifigantly more fuel efficient than a 2.5L 6-cyl?

This answer can be very complicated if you consider everything, but for simplicity's sake, I'll say there is a minimal difference that should not factor into your decision when choosing an engine. IMO, much greater differences exist beside fuel economy -- I suspect some people might want to know, so humour me for a minute...

An off the top of my head answer would go like this:

- NVH: 4-cylinders are inherently imbalanced. The larger they are, the harder it is to quell the vibration. A 2.5 L I-4 is at the upper limit of displacement that is possible with 4-cylinders without significantly losing refinement. A 2.5 L V6 or especially an I6 would be more refined and sonorous than a 2.5 L I4.

- Torque/HP: large 4-cylinders often have a long stroke "undersquare" design, meaning that they often have more low-end torque and less high rpm HP than similar displacement 6-cylinders.

- Efficiency: 6-cylinders will, on average, have slightly more parasitic losses than a 4-cylinder, rendering it slightly less efficient... but like I said, I woudn't base an engine decisions on such a small difference when there are so many other factors that determine an engine's characteristics.

If I had to choose a 2.5 L 4-cylinder, it would be the Subie flat-4, the one found in the Acura TSX, or the one found in the Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec V in that order. If I had to choose a 2.5 L 6-cylinder, it would be the 2.5 I6 found in the BMW 325i.

 

[blakerwry]

Blake, thanks for the detailed info!

Basically, I shopped around like crazy, calling on the phone. The dealer wanted to replace the assembly + motor for ~ $340+. All others, including AAA approved, said labor would range from ~ $90 to $200, with parts extra, and no clue as to how much the parts would be.

Finally one guy said I should call the people that replace auto glass (windshields, windows) as they would have the tools to do the job. The first guy I called from the yellow pages surprised me by being very precise; "don't need motor, get the assembly from the dealer, I'll put it in for $50 labor". And he and his helper did too. Two immigrant guys from the Middle-East, working out of a small room in an automotive repair complex. I was very happy with the quality of the work. He needed a helper because one of his hands was in a sling; he'd slashed it the week before and had to have surgery to fix it.

One other bizarre problem I had with this car is that the power lock on the rear left door stopped working 3 years ago; I had to manually lock/unlock it. About 2 months ago, it began to work again on its own. Go figure!

man, there seems to be so much variance.. makes me think alot of car places are crooked.

I thought there was supposed to be some kind of "mechanic shop pricing bible" that said how many hours it should take to fix something and whether or not it took that long the mechanic should charge for that many hours of labor. Don't know what "the bible" is called or how many shops use it...


In any event, you did the right thing and called around. When my windsheild broke I called the dealer and their price was outrageous. I got it fixed for $100 cheaper from somewhere else.. same deal on my mother's windsheild that recently had to be replaced, $100 cheaper for a better windsheild only this time I didn't bother with the dealer.

 

[Fushigi]

man, there seems to be so much variance.. makes me think alot of car places are crooked.

I thought there was supposed to be some kind of "mechanic shop pricing bible" that said how many hours it should take to fix something and whether or not it took that long the mechanic should charge for that many hours of labor. Don't know what "the bible" is called or how many shops use it...

There is a book that describes the average hours each type of repair takes. I believe it's even broken down by model as things like mounting points and accessability varies. The differences will be in labor rates, 'shop fees', inflation of parts cost, desire to gouge the consumer, etc. Around here, dealerships and high-end repair shops have labor rates of $75+/hour, although I don't generally encounter shop fees.

Another point of variance is if multiple repairs are being done. Changing the timing belt, for instance, is labor intensive and involves removing the other drive belts to get to the timing belt. So the book would quote a few hours of labor for that. If you were having the other belts replaced, that would also entail a bit of labor. Some shops might add the labor hours together but that's a ripoff. As the old belts were removed anyway, there is no extra labor involved with replacing the other belts while replacing the timing belt. Because of the costs, it is generally adviseable to go ahead and replace the other belts when the timing belt is replaced. For most cars that's every 50-60,000 miles. FWIW, some cars still use timing chains which should never need replacing.

For anything to do with power windows I would just remove the interior door panel and other stuff to make a diagnosis, then hit a junk yard for the parts. I did that back in the early 80s to replace the power window motor on a 65 Buick Tank. Cost all of $15 for the part. All you need is a screwdriver, maybe a ratchet, and some dexterity.

Mubs' glass guy is the classis example of how to get a repair and not get ripped off. Buy the part from the dealer (or anywhere else). This generally avoids inflation of the price of the parts. Then pay a straight/fixed labor cost for the install. On the one domestic car I've owned in the past 20 years, I had a cracked mounting bracket (I think it was for the alternator). Before I discovered the crack, Firestone's worthless idiots were replacing belts about every three weeks. I bought the replacement bracket from the dealer for about $30 and had the local Kmart auto center install it for a few more $. Easy & cheap repair. (Ford had revised the bracket mountings some, presumably to avoid further cracking.) And on my 93 Mazda, the cable that goes from the dash to the hood release broke. I bought the cable assembly from the dealer and had a guy from the local Midas fix it on his own time at my apartment for $20 (plus some lemonade when he was done).

- Fushigi

 

[Handruin]

Is a 2.5L 4-cyl any/marginally/signifigantly more fuel efficient than a 2.5L 6-cyl?

This answer can be very complicated if you consider everything, but for simplicity's sake, I'll say there is a minimal difference that should not factor into your decision when choosing an engine. IMO, much greater differences exist beside fuel economy -- I suspect some people might want to know, so humour me for a minute...

An off the top of my head answer would go like this:

- NVH: 4-cylinders are inherently imbalanced. The larger they are, the harder it is to quell the vibration. A 2.5 L I-4 is at the upper limit of displacement that is possible with 4-cylinders without significantly losing refinement. A 2.5 L V6 or especially an I6 would be more refined and sonorous than a 2.5 L I4.

- Torque/HP: large 4-cylinders often have a long stroke "undersquare" design, meaning that they often have more low-end torque and less high rpm HP than similar displacement 6-cylinders.

- Efficiency: 6-cylinders will, on average, have slightly more parasitic losses than a 4-cylinder, rendering it slightly less efficient... but like I said, I woudn't base an engine decisions on such a small difference when there are so many other factors that determine an engine's characteristics.

If I had to choose a 2.5 L 4-cylinder, it would be the Subie flat-4, the one found in the Acura TSX, or the one found in the Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec V in that order. If I had to choose a 2.5 L 6-cylinder, it would be the 2.5 I6 found in the BMW 325i.

I'll have to admit that I was concerned with the typical vibration of an inline 4 when I test drove the TSX. Much to my surprise the engine was practically non-existant with noise and vibration. Honda played some magic on this block (which came from the honda CRV) and was able to put a nice balance on it. They were also able to make the majority of torque available at lower RPM.

Just the other day someone from a TSX site was the first to dyno the car. When you count for 15% Drivetrain loss based on the resistance of the transmission, the car comes in spec with the 200 HP claim made by acura. (since they rate at the crank and not at the wheels)

You can see the VTEC change-over blip at 6000 RPM. At roughly 2500 RPM the engine is already producing 150 lb ft.

Final results:
170HP and 153TQ

 

[e_dawg]

Indeed, the TSX is a nice large displacement 4. Remarkably refined and a surprising amount of torque for a Honda engine. The latter is partly due to the long stroke undersquare design I mentioned (which is also responsible for the lower redline and high rpm HP we are accustomed to with Honda's high output engines).

 

[mubs]

A 2.5 L V6 or especially an I6 would be more refined and sonorous than a 2.5 L I4.

...desire to gouge the consumer...

I love the way you guys phrase things here!

I thought there was supposed to be some kind of "mechanic shop pricing bible" that said how many hours it should take to fix something and whether or not it took that long the mechanic should charge for that many hours of labor. Don't know what "the bible" is called or how many shops use it...

I actually went to several car parts stores looking for those manuals that would tell me how so I could do it myself, but either this problem was not even mentioned or had something silly like "take off door panel, replace, put panel back on again". Duh. That's when I decided to call around.

The problem is, this seems to be an unusual type of repair, and very few shops seem to do it or know anything about it. So when you ask for a quote, they either try to rip you off, or give a high quote because they don't want to low-ball it and later find it involves more work than they thought it would. The last thing I want is a guy doing a job for the first time, learning on my car! I immediately decided against each shop that was vague about charges, time and what it would take to fix it.

For anything to do with power windows I would just remove the interior door panel and other stuff to make a diagnosis, then hit a junk yard for the parts. ... All you need is a screwdriver, maybe a ratchet, and some dexterity.

Aah! But you have to be careful! Some designs have a spring (clock-like) that is wound up at 40+ lbs pounds of force, and if you don't know what you're doing, you could easily sever a finger or two! It's happened to many people. It's always better to research first before embarking on the project.

 

[blakerwry]

I have a chilton's manual for a 95 handa accord and a Haynes for my Camry... I find them both pretty poor, they could be organized so much better, especially when regarding torque specs and fludid capacities for various items.

But I was actually talking about a guide that tells mechanic shops how much they should charge (in hours) for the labor of an individual task (This is the average time a professional mechanic should take)

ex: Timing Belt change -> Ford -> Mustang -> V6 ->2000-2002 : 20 minutes.


Then whether it took 20 minutes or not, the mechanics shop should charge you for 20 minutes of labor.




Basic procedure for taking anything off your toyota will look like this:

1) undo 1 bajillion screws holding on the part directly and the other bajillion screws holding it on indirectly.

2) Take off all the parts surround the part you need to remove

3) remove the other bajillion screws that were hidden (yes, don't forget that clip in the back that requires a special tool to remove without breaking)

4) pull while contortioning to remove the neccessary part (you will get cut or otherwise hurt during this section)

5) run out of time and have to drive to work without a door, bumber, headlights, or other part you've taken for granted.

6) work on it some more and figure out you forgot a screw

7) part easily falls off by itself...

(part 8: where dod those scres go?)

Removing alot of the parts of this car takes some experience, most of it will transfer to other cars and vise versa. So if a mechanic has ever taken off a Toyota door panel then they'll probably have no trouble with your Camry.

 

[blakerwry]

oh, i was just reminded of something, why do transmission flushes cost so much?

I've completely cleaned out my transmission 3 times and each time it's cost me less than ~$8 and about 1/2 hour of my time. (A mechanic could do it in 10 minutes with a lift)

So, why does it cost so much for a simple transmission flush when an oil change is so much less?

(oil changes are priced high as well in my opinion.. but not as bad... I do them myself)

 

[Groltz]

Something I ran across earlier today:

House in the country... $1 million

Three luxury cars... $150,000

Leaving town during a cold Minnesota winter without turning off the water pipes in your garage... PRICELESS!

 

[Howell]

hah.

---------------------
I ran across a couple cars I'm adding to my list of potentials.
http://www.fordvehicles.com/fordgt/home.asp
http://www.dodge.com/grab_life/past_and_future/concept_cars/charger.html
http://www.conceptcarz.com/folder/v...&car_type=&recent=&thisPage=&pendingApproval=

 

[timwhit]

I sold my Jeep on Monday and I will finally be picking up a 2003 Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec-V later today. It has a 6 speed tranny, rockford fosgate sound system, and it is bright yellow. All my friends told me not to get yellow, but I'm buying it so I got what I wanted. I got 0.9% interest on my loan also.

I will post some pictures later on after I pick up the car.

 

[Buck]

Congratulations Tim.

 

[SteveC]

Congrats! My car is 15 years old, but only has 75,000 on it, and it runs perfectly, so I don't have a reason to get a newer one, especially since my insurance rate is now at a somewhat reasonable level (insurance in insanely expensive in Jersey).

 

[honold]

Congrats! My car is 15 years old, but only has 75,000 on it, and it runs perfectly, so I don't have a reason to get a newer one, especially since my insurance rate is now at a somewhat reasonable level (insurance in insanely expensive in Jersey).

you're not convincing us, so i hope it works on yourself

 

[timwhit]

Just got back from picking up my car. The only thing I have to say is that it's a sweet ride. I also bought the extended warranty on it. I get 6 years/100,000 miles. The first price he gave me on it was $1250, but I told him I didn't think it was worth it. So after a few minutes he said he would give it to me for $950 and I took that offer. I will post some pictures of it later on next week.

 

[honold]

grats

 

[Howell]

Congrats, Tim. Keep it between the lines.

 

[Handruin]

Congrats Timwhit!

Even though I bought my new car almost a month ago...I still don't have it yet. It was supposed to be here this week...I'm still hoping for tomorrow.

 

[Onomatopoeic]

...Changing the timing belt, for instance, is labor intensive and involves removing the other drive belts to get to the timing belt. So the book would quote a few hours of labor for that...

Not to mention that some automobiles require the engine to be at least be partially pulled just to get to the front of the engine housing and then the timing belt.

...FWIW, some cars still use timing chains which should never need replacing...

That's definitely not the case, as timing chains (the ones bathed in oil) require regular replacement, too. Rubber drive belt technology came along in the 1980s to the point to where you could do this dry. Even the traditionalist Harley Davidson ditched the drive chain for the smooth dry belt.

My old Volvo 244GL used gear-to-gear -- no timing chain or belt !

Then, my Yamaha FZR-750 used a small wormgeared driveshaft between the crankshaft and the dual-camshafts. This was an engineering necessity with a 13,000 RPM redline, 750cc, double overhead cam, 5-valve-per-cylinder engine that required extremely low drive lash specifications, yet needed to actuate 20 valves with a lot of aggregate valve spring pressure.

 

[e_dawg]

Ah, yes. Nothing like a new car. I had a feeling you would like the SE-R

Congrats, Tim!

And don't drive like they do in the Italian Job and 2 Fast 2 Furious.

 

[timwhit]

My friend just bought a 2000 Audi S4 that has been souped up quite a bit. I saw for the first time tonight. It has 320hp and does 0-60 in about 4.8s. That car is amazingly fast. He let me drive it and within 3 blocks I got pulled over. At least I didn't get a ticket.

Just thought I would share that and resurrect this thread.

 

[Prof.Wizard]

Audis S are awesome!

 

[Pradeep]

oh, i was just reminded of something, why do transmission flushes cost so much?

I've completely cleaned out my transmission 3 times and each time it's cost me less than ~$8 and about 1/2 hour of my time. (A mechanic could do it in 10 minutes with a lift)

So, why does it cost so much for a simple transmission flush when an oil change is so much less?

(oil changes are priced high as well in my opinion.. but not as bad... I do them myself)

Local Ford dealership charges US$9.95 for oil+filter change. I can't buy a filter and new oil and dispose of old for that price.

 

[Handruin]

My friend just bought a 2000 Audi S4 that has been souped up quite a bit. I saw for the first time tonight. It has 320hp and does 0-60 in about 4.8s. That car is amazingly fast. He let me drive it and within 3 blocks I got pulled over. At least I didn't get a ticket.

Just thought I would share that and resurrect this thread.

That must have been an expensive purchase. If I remember correctly, that car costs in the upper $40's new (and stock). Sounds like a hell of a ride!

 

[blakerwry]

oh, i was just reminded of something, why do transmission flushes cost so much?

I've completely cleaned out my transmission 3 times and each time it's cost me less than ~$8 and about 1/2 hour of my time. (A mechanic could do it in 10 minutes with a lift)

So, why does it cost so much for a simple transmission flush when an oil change is so much less?

(oil changes are priced high as well in my opinion.. but not as bad... I do them myself)

Local Ford dealership charges US$9.95 for oil+filter change. I can't buy a filter and new oil and dispose of old for that price.

I was thinking jiffy lube (they fart in your car and try to sell you things you don't need) charges about $20.00, dealership charges about the same but won't fart in your car. I can get a good filter for ~$2 and used to be able to find good oil (quakerstate, Castrol, Valvoline, or at worst penzoil) on sale for $1 a quart at Walmart/K-Mart.. now it's more like $1.50. My car uses 4.5 quarts. So it costs me about the same $9 -doesn't look like your dealership makes any money on that deal.

The difference for me is that I probably use a slightly better filter/oil than would be used at the shop and I can watch TV, surf, do whatever while my old oil drains completely out and I don't have to drive somewhere and wait (the driving and the waiting would undoubtedly make the total time spent about the same).

I also know that I got the job done right -The 1st time I ever took my car to get it's oil changed they changed the oil and left the old filter on... I wouldn't doubt if this happens alot.

 

[Buck]

...on sale for $1 a quart at Walmart/K-Mart.. now it's more like $1.50. My car uses 4.5 quarts. So it costs me about the same $9 -doesn't look like your dealership makes any money on that deal.

Dealers don't necessarily buy oil in quart containers. Usually it is a 55-gallon drum that uses an air pressure system to dispense the oil. But you are right, the don't make that much money on oil changes.

 

[timwhit]

My friend just bought a 2000 Audi S4 that has been souped up quite a bit. I saw for the first time tonight. It has 320hp and does 0-60 in about 4.8s. That car is amazingly fast. He let me drive it and within 3 blocks I got pulled over. At least I didn't get a ticket.

Just thought I would share that and resurrect this thread.

That must have been an expensive purchase. If I remember correctly, that car costs in the upper $40's new (and stock). Sounds like a hell of a ride!

He only paid $22k for it. He got a hell of a deal because the car is in immaculate condition and it only has 50k miles on it. The guy who owned it before added 18 inch rims, a spoiler, took all the badges off the car, put a new high performance exhaust on it, and put a chip in it. Just the chip alone increases the turbo boost from around 7psi to 14psi.

 

[Handruin]

Nice deal for a car of that caliber, I would have expected a higher price. Most mods don't give much to the initial price of the car, but 50K miles seems about right for being 3.5 years old. (figuring 15K per year)

The S4 is one of the few audi's I respect.

 

[Corvair]

why do transmission flushes cost so much?

An automatic transmission filter + the many liters / quarts of lubricant that an automatic tranny uses will surpass what a motor requires.

I can get a good filter for ~$2 and used to be able to find good oil (quakerstate, Castrol, Valvoline, or at worst penzoil) on sale for $1 a quart at Walmart/K-Mart...

Usually, I pay around US$3.95 (discount price) per quart of motor oil and about $4.95 for an oil filter -- this is for Mobil One 10W-30 and a top-grade Fram oil filter. I change my oil every 3333.3 miles. The "old" oil looks pretty good every time I drain it.

The automobile (a Mitsubishi Diamante) has around 165000 miles on it. I am its only owner. It runs and looks as good as it was new in 1998. When the mechanic at the dealership did a major tune-up on it at 120K miles -- including timing belt replacement and precautionary water pump replacement -- he commented that when he was adjusting the valves that the motor's internals were astonishingly clean for a 120K-mile motor. The outside of the motor has always been clean.

As a precautionary step / preventative maintenance step, I just recently replaced all of its water hoses. I also replace fanbelts every 50K miles, drain / flush the cooling system every Christmas. Except for tedious stuff like replacing a timing belt or a suspension part, I normally do all of my own work because I don't particularly trust automobile mechanics in performing their work correctly.

 

[timwhit]

You drive your car 33,000 miles a year?

 

[Fushigi]

You've a nick of Corvair but you drive a Diamante? :lol: Aren't Diamante's built in Oz?

My 99 Mitsu Galant (built in Illinois) has 76K miles; one year newer but less than 1/2 your miles. I barely look under the hood but do follow recommended service intervals. I have pretty much everything done at the dealer as they're convenient for me and don't seem to be that much more expensive than anywhere else. My dealer does good work and always has a good attitude. They even give me a 10% discount (parts & labor) pretty regularly.

It's been a great car; more relaible than the Mazda it replaced and the Nissan before that. More reliable than my 1st wife's Camry. Great content for the money, too.

- Fushigi

 

[timwhit]

I finally took a picture of my car.

Lemme know what you think.

 

[Buck]

Very colorful. Any tickets yet?

 

[timwhit]

Haven't even gotten pulled over yet. Hopefully it will stay that way.

 

[Buck]

Haven't even gotten pulled over yet. Hopefully it will stay that way.

I hope so too. Very nice car; it should last you a long time.

 

[timwhit]

Haven't even gotten pulled over yet. Hopefully it will stay that way.

I hope so too. Very nice car; it should last you a long time.

Hopefully it will last at least 5 years. Because that's how long my loan is for; and that is approximately how long my warranty will last.

 

[Handruin]

Your car is looking good! I'll admit yellow isn't my first choice for a car, but I think it looks good on your car. Have you had a chance to stretch its legs yet? I bet that car moves pretty darn good.


I also got around to taking some pictures of my car a couple weeks ago.

nav 1 | nav 2 | guages | engine | Interior

 

[timwhit]

Doug, your car looks like a classy piece of work. You even have navigation. That would be very nice.

I've gotten my car upto 110mph. And I've raced it around a few times (beat an Integra a few weeks ago). I never drive slow, so I guess I am always stretching it's legs.

I got my first oil change last week, haven't had a mechanical problem as of yet.

 

[Howell]

I finally took a picture of my car.

Lemme know what you think.

I like yellow.